The 3 Minute Lie

[Dan O'meara]

Shelley stated he thought it was 3 or 4 minutes because that is how long he thought it took for Calvery to travel from where she was to where he was. Maybe the time trial should have been on her.

Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.

??
I already made that point in my post:

In front of the WC, Shelley and Lovelady testify that Gloria Calvery took at least three minutes after the shots to make it from her position on Elm Street to the front steps of the TSBD.

You really can't seem to grasp the most simple things.
Do you understand what this thread is about?
It's been established that Shelley and Lovelady testified that Gloria Calvery took at least three minutes to get back to the TSBD steps.
It's been established that both men testified to seeing Baker and Truly still outside the TSBD after they see Gloria.
Now, try to concentrate here, this means they are testifying that, in effect, Truly and Baker are still outside at least three minutes after the shooting!!
But this completely contradicts the time trials Truly and Baker conducted which had them back inside the TSBD building within seconds. This is confirmed by the Darnell footage.
What is it you don't understand about this?
It's really easy to understand.
Do you even read the posts you are responding to?
You're making a real fool of yourself yet again.

And you forgot this question:

In your opinion, how long did it take Baker to reach the front steps after the shooting?

[Jack Nessan]

??
I already made that point in my post:

In front of the WC, Shelley and Lovelady testify that Gloria Calvery took at least three minutes after the shots to make it from her position on Elm Street to the front steps of the TSBD.

You really can't seem to grasp the most simple things.
Do you understand what this thread is about?
It's been established that Shelley and Lovelady testified that Gloria Calvery took at least three minutes to get back to the TSBD steps.
It's been established that both men testified to seeing Baker and Truly still outside the TSBD after they see Gloria.
Now, try to concentrate here, this means they are testifying that, in effect, Truly and Baker are still outside at least three minutes after the shooting!!
But this completely contradicts the time trials Truly and Baker conducted which had them back inside the TSBD building within seconds. This is confirmed by the Darnell footage.
What is it you don't understand about this?
It's really easy to understand.
Do you even read the posts you are responding to?
You're making a real fool of yourself yet again.

And you forgot this question:

In your opinion, how long did it take Baker to reach the front steps after the shooting?

How about you answer your own question. How long did it take Calvery to run back to the TSBD? If you answer your own question, you will get the answer. Maybe you should rename this thread the 3 Minute Lie That Never Was.

It does not matter what you think about Shelley's response. It only matters what Shelley thought and he guessed based on how far he thought Calvery was away from the TSBD. Calvery never told a soul and neither did Shelley that he knew that it took Calvery 3 or 4 minutes to reach the TSBD. He was just guessing the time, nothing more. 

Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
 

[Dan O'meara]

How about you answer your own question. How long did it take Calvery to run back to the TSBD? If you answer your own question, you will get the answer. Maybe you should rename this thread the 3 Minute Lie That Never Was.

It does not matter what you think about Shelley's response. It only matters what Shelley thought and he guessed based on how far he thought Calvery was away from the TSBD. Calvery never told a soul and neither did Shelley that he knew that it took Calvery 3 or 4 minutes to reach the TSBD. He was just guessing the time, nothing more. 

Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.

Maybe you should rename this thread the 3 Minute Lie That Never Was.

And maybe we should rename you the researcher who never was.

How about you answer your own question.

Three times you've been asked this question and three times you've slithered out of it.
At least you're consistent.

If it helps, I'll tell you what I think first, then see if you can manage a straight-forward answer to a straight-forward question.
I think Gloria saw JFK's head explode and ran as fast as she could back to the TSBD building.
She had about 140 ft to cover. Let's say she was running at a modest 6mph, she could have covered that distance in 16 seconds. I think it was probably quicker than that.
I think she reached the TSBD steps before Baker got there.
She was stood at the steps, telling Lovelady and others about the shooting, when Baker arrived.
Shelley was stood at the bottom of the steps having just returned from "that little, old island" across the Elm Street extension.
This whole scenario was captured by Darnell:



You seem to be forgetting that Lovelady was telling the exact same lie as Shelley.
You seem to forget that the Darnell footage proves they were lying.
You seem to forget that the Baker/Truly time trials prove they were lying.
You seem to forget that Shelley repeated this lie to George and Patricia Nash
You seem to forget that, in his affidavit, Shelley stated he met Gloria at "that little, old island" and not at the steps.
You really are very forgetful, aren't you.

Shelley and Lovelady lied when they said in their WC testimony that after three minutes Gloria came running up, that they moved across to "that little, old island" and it was then they turned around and saw Baker and Truly at the bottom of the steps about to enter the building.
They were still at the steps themselves when Baker arrived.
It was a matter of a few seconds before he arrived.

Now then, for the fourth time - how long do you think it took Gloria to reach the steps after the shooting?
Come on Jack, you can do it. It's such a simple question. Why won't you just answer it?

[Andrew Mason]

Both men testify to the effect that Truly and Baker were still outside the TSBD building at least three minutes after the assassination. This completely contradicts the time trials.

The problem appears to be the result of the WC counsel Mr. Ball being under the impression that the Lovelady and Shelley met Gloria Calvery on the steps of the TSBD and then went across Elm St and then down toward the tracks. If it took 3 minutes for Gloria Calvery to walk up to the front door, and if they saw Truly and Baker enter after that, there could be a timing problem.  That is what Ball with a leading question seems to have elicited from Lovelady and possibly Shelley.

But in his 22Nov63 FBI statement (CD205) Lovelady said:

• He said immediately after hearing the shots he and Shelley started running towards the Presidential car, but it sped away west on Elm Street under the triple underpass.

In his original statement on 22Nov63 (24H226) Shelley said that after the shots they ran across the street and then met Gloria Calvery:

• I ran across the street to the corner of the park and ran into a girl crying and she said the President had been shot. This girl's name is Gloria Calvery...

The only time Lovelady mentions a time of 3 minutes is with meeting Gloria Calvery.  But, according to their earlier statements, that is after they crossed Elm St. and started walking toward the railway tracks, long after the first 15-25 steps (estimated) when he saw Truly and Baker run into the building.

You have to go with the statements that were closest to the events if there is a conflict. This is especially so when the subsequent statements are made in answer to leading questions.

But all of this does not matter if all we are trying to do is determine when Victoria Adams came down the stairs to the first floor and saw Shelley and Lovelady walking across the floor.   That was several minutes after the shots, probably more than 5 minutes.  Truly and Baker were up past the fourth floor before Adams started down the stairs.

[Dan O'meara]

The problem appears to be the result of the WC counsel Mr. Ball being under the impression that the Lovelady and Shelley met Gloria Calvery on the steps of the TSBD and then went across Elm St and then down toward the tracks. If it took 3 minutes for Gloria Calvery to walk up to the front door, and if they saw Truly and Baker enter after that, there could be a timing problem.  That is what Ball with a leading question seems to have elicited from Lovelady and possibly Shelley.

But in his 22Nov63 FBI statement (CD205) Lovelady said:

• He said immediately after hearing the shots he and Shelley started running towards the Presidential car, but it sped away west on Elm Street under the triple underpass.

In his original statement on 22Nov63 (24H226) Shelley said that after the shots they ran across the street and then met Gloria Calvery:

• I ran across the street to the corner of the park and ran into a girl crying and she said the President had been shot. This girl's name is Gloria Calvery...

The only time Lovelady mentions a time of 3 minutes is with meeting Gloria Calvery.  But, according to their earlier statements, that is after they crossed Elm St. and started walking toward the railway tracks, long after the first 15-25 steps (estimated) when he saw Truly and Baker run into the building.

You have to go with the statements that were closest to the events if there is a conflict. This is especially so when the subsequent statements are made in answer to leading questions.

But all of this does not matter if all we are trying to do is determine when Victoria Adams came down the stairs to the first floor and saw Shelley and Lovelady walking across the floor.   That was several minutes after the shots, probably more than 5 minutes.  Truly and Baker were up past the fourth floor before Adams started down the stairs.

Hi Andrew, you don't seem to be grasping what this thread is about.
Do you agree that, during the WC hearings, both men testify that after at least three minutes, Gloria Calvery approaches them at the steps, tells them about the shooting after which they both make their way out to the concrete spur across the Elm Street extension. At some point after they have left the steps they turn around to see Baker and Truly still outside the TSBD building?
Do you agree with that assessment?
Do you agree that the Darnell footage proves this is an incorrect account of events?
Do you agree that the Baker/Truly time trials prove this is an incorrect account of events?
Once I feel you have a basic understanding of what the thread is about we can move forward with some kind of discussion but, with respect to the two replies you've posted on this thread, I don't feel you really understand what's being said.

But all of this does not matter if all we are trying to do is determine when Victoria Adams came down the stairs to the first floor and saw Shelley and Lovelady walking across the floor.

I feel this statement clearly demonstrates that you don't really know what this thread is about.
It's not about Vicki Adams.
It's about Shelley and Lovelady lying in their WC testimonies.

That was several minutes after the shots, probably more than 5 minutes.

What are you basing this timing on?
Please don't say the testimonies of Shelley and Lovelady.
If so, I urge you to read what's been posted so far in this thread.

Truly and Baker were up past the fourth floor before Adams started down the stairs.

Familiarise yourself with the Stroud document.
Adams and Styles were down the stairs before Truly and Baker came up the same stairs.
You should really know something this basic.

[Jack Nessan]

Maybe you should rename this thread the 3 Minute Lie That Never Was.

And maybe we should rename you the researcher who never was.

How about you answer your own question.

Three times you've been asked this question and three times you've slithered out of it.
At least you're consistent.

If it helps, I'll tell you what I think first, then see if you can manage a straight-forward answer to a straight-forward question.
I think Gloria saw JFK's head explode and ran as fast as she could back to the TSBD building.
She had about 140 ft to cover. Let's say she was running at a modest 6mph, she could have covered that distance in 16 seconds. I think it was probably quicker than that.
I think she reached the TSBD steps before Baker got there.
She was stood at the steps, telling Lovelady and others about the shooting, when Baker arrived.
Shelley was stood at the bottom of the steps having just returned from "that little, old island" across the Elm Street extension.
This whole scenario was captured by Darnell:



You seem to be forgetting that Lovelady was telling the exact same lie as Shelley.
You seem to forget that the Darnell footage proves they were lying.
You seem to forget that the Baker/Truly time trials prove they were lying.
You seem to forget that Shelley repeated this lie to George and Patricia Nash
You seem to forget that, in his affidavit, Shelley stated he met Gloria at "that little, old island" and not at the steps.
You really are very forgetful, aren't you.

Shelley and Lovelady lied when they said in their WC testimony that after three minutes Gloria came running up, that they moved across to "that little, old island" and it was then they turned around and saw Baker and Truly at the bottom of the steps about to enter the building.
They were still at the steps themselves when Baker arrived.
It was a matter of a few seconds before he arrived.

Now then, for the fourth time - how long do you think it took Gloria to reach the steps after the shooting?
Come on Jack, you can do it. It's such a simple question. Why won't you just answer it?

You seem to be forgetting that Lovelady was telling the exact same lie as Shelley.
You seem to forget that the Darnell footage proves they were lying.
You seem to forget that the Baker/Truly time trials prove they were lying.
You seem to forget that Shelley repeated this lie to George and Patricia Nash
You seem to forget that, in his affidavit, Shelley stated he met Gloria at "that little, old island" and not at the steps.
You really are very forgetful, aren't you.

Shelley and Lovelady lied when they said in their WC testimony that after three minutes Gloria came running up, that they moved across to "that little, old island" and it was then they turned around and saw Baker and Truly at the bottom of the steps about to enter the building.

Obviously, it has been determined Shelley and Lovelady did not lie to anyone.

Shelley estimated three to four minutes based on the actions of Gloria Calvery. There had to be a little time span for Shelley to even estimate three minutes. Truly thinks the time trials were a minimum not a maximum. You are doing enough speculating and guessing for everyone. 16 seconds as an estimate as to how quick Calvery returned to the front of the building has no basis in reality.  The time trials can be best summarized by Truly's take on them.

Mr. BELIN. Would you say that the reconstruction that we did on March 20th was a minimum or a maximum time?
Mr. TRULY. Oh, I would say that would be the minimum time.

Truly thought that 90 seconds was to short of a time span. Was he lying too? Everyone was lying. Everyone but Oswald.

It is safe to say that the idea that Shelley and Lovelady lied can be put to rest. Once again you have a picture that is a snapshot in time and tells nothing about the movement of the people or the time involved but look at the story you have created around the one picture. Shelley easily could have walked over to the island and returned with Calvery. Shelley during the parade was on the steps above Lovelady not standing at the bottom of the steps starring into space.

[Dan O'meara]

You seem to be forgetting that Lovelady was telling the exact same lie as Shelley.
You seem to forget that the Darnell footage proves they were lying.
You seem to forget that the Baker/Truly time trials prove they were lying.
You seem to forget that Shelley repeated this lie to George and Patricia Nash
You seem to forget that, in his affidavit, Shelley stated he met Gloria at "that little, old island" and not at the steps.
You really are very forgetful, aren't you.

Shelley and Lovelady lied when they said in their WC testimony that after three minutes Gloria came running up, that they moved across to "that little, old island" and it was then they turned around and saw Baker and Truly at the bottom of the steps about to enter the building.

Obviously, it has been determined Shelley and Lovelady did not lie to anyone.

Shelley estimated three to four minutes based on the actions of Gloria Calvery. There had to be a little time span for Shelley to even estimate three minutes. Truly thinks the time trials were a minimum not a maximum. You are doing enough speculating and guessing for everyone. 16 seconds as an estimate as to how quick Calvery returned to the front of the building has no basis in reality.  The time trials can be best summarized by Truly's take on them.

Mr. BELIN. Would you say that the reconstruction that we did on March 20th was a minimum or a maximum time?
Mr. TRULY. Oh, I would say that would be the minimum time.

Truly thought that 90 seconds was to short of a time span. Was he lying too? Everyone was lying. Everyone but Oswald.

It is safe to say that the idea that Shelley and Lovelady lied can be put to rest. Once again you have a picture that is a snapshot in time and tells nothing about the movement of the people or the time involved but look at the story you have created around the one picture. Shelley easily could have walked over to the island and returned with Calvery. Shelley during the parade was on the steps above Lovelady not standing at the bottom of the steps starring into space.

Why won't you answer the question Jack?
What's wrong with you?

For the fourth time - how long do you think it took Gloria to reach the front steps of the TSBD building after the shots?
Everyone can see you're avoiding this incredibly simple question.
Just answer it 

[Jack Nessan]

Why won't you answer the question Jack?
What's wrong with you?

For the fourth time - how long do you think it took Gloria to reach the front steps of the TSBD building after the shots?
Everyone can see you're avoiding this incredibly simple question.
Just answer it 

It is obvious you have no idea as to how long it took her and I could care less. It is not as easy as how far and how fast did she run. You are trying to prove something here why not just get on with it.

The one thing you have not proven is did Shelley and Lovelady lie to discredit Adams and Styles. You just never really read their statements and realized Shelley’s statement hinged on the arrival of Calvery and how long that it took her to go that far. There is no missing three minutes in their statements. That is the real point, and which is the basis for this whole exercise. Here is the bottom line, Adams and Styles did not leave as early as they thought.