The 3 Minute Lie

[Dan O'meara]

It is obvious you have no idea as to how long it took her and I could care less. It is not as easy as how far and how fast did she run. You are trying to prove something here why not just get on with it.

The one thing you have not proven is did Shelley and Lovelady lie to discredit Adams and Styles. You just never really read their statements and realized Shelley’s statement hinged on the arrival of Calvery and how long that it took her to go that far. There is no missing three minutes in their statements. That is the real point, and which is the basis for this whole exercise. Here is the bottom line, Adams and Styles did not leave as early as they thought.

 
For the fourth time - how long do you think it took Gloria to reach the front steps?
Don't be so cowardly and just answer the question.
There's an obvious reason why you won't answer it - you're going to make a massive fool of yourself. Again.
It's such a simple question Jack.

It has been proven, beyond any reasonable doubt, that Shelley and Lovelady lied to the Commission about their movements after the assassination.
The 3 Minute Lie is proven to be a lie by the Darnell footage.
It's proven to be a lie by the Truly/Baker time trials.
It's proven to be a lie by their same-day affidavits.
Shelley - after the shots, he ran across the street to the "corner of the park", he ran into Gloria across the street, returned to the steps and went back inside the building.
Lovelady - stayed on the front steps then went back in the building with Shelley.
In their WC statements Gloria runs up to them while they are still at the steps - contradicting Shelley's affidavit.
Then both men run across the street to "that little, old island" - contradicting Lovelady's affidavit.
In their affidavits there is no mention of making their way down the Elm Street extension, hanging round the railroad yard then re-entering the building through the west door because none of that happened. Both men were back inside the front of the building within seconds of the shooting.
In further statements, as their lie evolves, Lovelady has them running down to where the limo slowed down and not the railroad yard. Shelley has them accompanying police officers down to the railroad yard where they stay for ten minutes!

The Darnell footage shows Baker reaching the foot of the TSBD steps seconds after the shooting.
According to their WC statements Shelley and Lovelady have already spoken with Gloria and made their way across the Elm Street extension.
How do YOU explain this discrepancy? [Don't bother ducking this question]



Poor old Jack.

[Richard Smith]

Why would Shelley and Lovelady "intentionally lie" about their movements? 

[Andrew Mason]

Hi Andrew, you don't seem to be grasping what this thread is about.
Do you agree that, during the WC hearings, both men testify that after at least three minutes, Gloria Calvery approaches them at the steps, tells them about the shooting after which they both make their way out to the concrete spur across the Elm Street extension. At some point after they have left the steps they turn around to see Baker and Truly still outside the TSBD building?

Do you agree with that assessment?

They did not volunteer that. They simply go along with what Ball suggests.  My point is that you cannot give any weight to that suggestion. Ball was confused into thinking that they met Gloria Calvery on the steps. They simply did not challenge Ball's suggestion.  They said from the beginning that they met her after they crossed Elm St. as she was coming toward them from farther down Elm.

Do you agree that the Darnell footage proves this is an incorrect account of events?
Do you agree that the Baker/Truly time trials prove this is an incorrect account of events?
Once I feel you have a basic understanding of what the thread is about we can move forward with some kind of discussion but, with respect to the two replies you've posted on this thread, I don't feel you really understand what's being said.

You seem to be suggesting that Shelley and Lovelady were conspiring together to lie about how long it took for Baker and Truly to enter the TSBD. But they never said that they entered three minutes after the shots. They said they met Gloria Calvery 3 minutes after the shots.  They never said that they met Gloria Calvery before they crossed Elm St. That was Ball's take.

But all of this does not matter if all we are trying to do is determine when Victoria Adams came down the stairs to the first floor and saw Shelley and Lovelady walking across the floor.

I feel this statement clearly demonstrates that you don't really know what this thread is about.
It's not about Vicki Adams.
It's about Shelley and Lovelady lying in their WC testimonies.

That was several minutes after the shots, probably more than 5 minutes.

What are you basing this timing on?
Please don't say the testimonies of Shelley and Lovelady.

No. it is based on the fact that Adams said that when she came down the stairs to the first floor she saw Shelley and Lovelady walking across the floor.  The time is based on Shelley and Lovelady's earlier statements from 22Nov63, not their much later and somewhat confused WC testimony.

If so, I urge you to read what's been posted so far in this thread.

Truly and Baker were up past the fourth floor before Adams started down the stairs.

Familiarise yourself with the Stroud document.
Adams and Styles were down the stairs before Truly and Baker came up the same stairs.
You should really know something this basic.

It may be basic to you but you are not taking into account all the evidence.  If she came down before Truly and Baker went to the second floor lunchroom, she could not have seen Shelley and Lovelady walking across the first floor.  They could not have met Gloria Calvery before going around to the first floor entrance (not sure how they could have entered on the west side - must have been the door by the back loading dock) in before Truly and Baker went up the stairs.

[Dan O'meara]

Why would Shelley and Lovelady "intentionally lie" about their movements?

Why, indeed.

[Richard Smith]

Why, indeed.

How about trying to answer with the understanding that would entail some speculation since you have gone on and on about this accusing them of "intentional" lies?  Why would someone in their position intentionally lie about their movements under oath?  Are you suggesting they were involved in the conspiracy to kill the president and frame Oswald and their role in this plot was to lie about their movements?  If so, that is very silly.  If not, it is difficult to understand why you think they would intentionally lie.

[Dan O'meara]

They did not volunteer that. They simply go along with what Ball suggests.  My point is that you cannot give any weight to that suggestion. Ball was confused into thinking that they met Gloria Calvery on the steps. They simply did not challenge Ball's suggestion.  They said from the beginning that they met her after they crossed Elm St. as she was running from farther down Elm.You seem to be suggesting that Shelley and Lovelady were conspiring together to lie about how long it took for Baker and Truly to enter the TSBD. But they never said that they entered three minutes after the shots. They said they met Gloria Calvery 3 minutes after the shots.  They never said that they met Gloria Calvery before they crossed Elm St. That was Ball's take.
No. it is based on the fact that Adams said that when she came down the stairs to the first floor she saw Shelley and Lovelady walking across the floor. To some extent it is based on Shelley and Lovelady's statements.  It may be basic to you but you are not taking into account the evidence.  If that was the case, she could not have seen Shelley and Lovelady walking across the first floor then.  Are you suggesting that she did not see them immediately after coming down the stairs as you suggest?

I have to say, Andrew, that you are clearly unfamiliar with the WC testimonies of both Shelley and Lovelady.
The points you make in this post have no basis in fact, or anything for that matter.


They did not volunteer that. They simply go along with what Ball suggests.  My point is that you cannot give any weight to that suggestion. Ball was confused into thinking that they met Gloria Calvery on the steps. They simply did not challenge Ball's suggestion. 

There are a couple of key points that need addressing here.
The first is the erroneous suggestion that Ball is somehow 'leading' Shelley and Lovelady, that they are going along with what Ball is 'suggesting'.
You then do a complete 180 degrees by insinuating Ball is somehow "confused" by what Shelley and Lovelady are saying!
How could he be confused by the witnesses if he is the one leading the witnesses?
Not that it matters as both points are figments of your imagination.
It is telling that you make these claims yet don't provide any testimonial evidence to back these claims up.
Is that because you know how empty these claims are?

Unlike you, I will provide the testimonial evidence demonstrating how wrong you are.
Firstly, your claim that Lovelady and Shelley somehow "confused" Ball into "thinking that they met Gloria Calvery on the steps"

Mr. Ball: Did you stay on the steps
Mr. Lovelady: Yes.
Mr. Ball: Were you there when the President's motorcade went by
Mr. Lovelady: Right.
Mr. Ball: Did you hear anything?
Mr. Lovelady: Yes, sir; sure did.
Mr. Ball: What did you hear?
Mr. Lovelady: I thought it was firecrackers or somebody celebrating the arrival of the President. It didn't occur to me at first what had happened until this Gloria came running up to us and told us the President had been shot.

There is nothing ambiguous about this piece of testimony.
Lovelady is stating, with clarity, that he was on the steps until Gloria showed up. He is not tricked into this or following up on some kind of 'suggestion'. He offers this information freely and without any provocation.
There is nothing in the slightest bit confusing about what Lovelady is saying here.

Mr. Ball: You were standing where?
Mr. Shelley: Just outside the glass doors there.
Mr. Ball: That would be on the top landing of the entrance?
Mr. Shelley: yes.
Mr. Ball: Did you see the motorcade pass?
Mr. Shelley: Yes.
Mr. Ball: What did you hear?

Ball has established that Shelley was stood on the top of the steps when the shooting occurred. Shelley describes the noises of the shots and Ball asks him what happened next:

Mr. Ball: Then what happened?
Mr. Shelley: Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.

This is not a leading question and there can be zero doubt as to what Shelley is saying in this part of his testimony - he was stood on the steps when the shots occurred after which Gloria Calvery ran up to the steps. From the steps he and Lovelady headed across the Elm Street extension to "that little, old island".
There is absolutely no confusion. Ball is under the impression that they met Gloria when they we're on the steps because that is exactly what both Shelley and Lovelady state in their testimonies. There are no leading questions. They offer this information freely and it is unambiguous. There is no confusion.
You really should familiarise yourself with the testimonial evidence before making these unfounded claims.
And the idea that Ball somehow suggested the "3 Minute Lie" and that Shelley and Lovelady just went along with it, is even more ill informed:

Mr. Ball: You heard the shots. And how long after that was it before Gloria Calvary came up?
Mr. Lovelady: Oh, approximately 3 minutes, I would say.

Ball asks a straight-forward question. He makes no kind of 'suggestion' as to how long it should be. Lovelady offers up this lie freely, he is not guided in any way.

Mr. Ball: Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. Shelley: It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.

Again, Shelley is asked a perfectly straight-forward question. There is nothing leading about it. And he answers it in a straight-forward manner.
It's unfortunate to say, but your claims that these men were somehow just following Ball's suggestions or that Ball was somehow confused, are either dishonest or just plain ignorant.

"They said from the beginning that they met her after they crossed Elm St. as she was running from farther down Elm."

This is just plain ignorance of the various testimonies.
At no point before his WC testimony did Lovelady say he met Gloria after crossing Elm Street. This is so basic I shouldn't have to be pointing it out.
The point is that, in his WC testimony, Shelley completely changes this sequence of events. In his affidavit he makes it clear that he ran across the Elm Street extension after the shots and he met Gloria there. In his WC testimony, he now clearly states that he was on the steps when Gloria ran up to him and Lovelady.
The only reason to change this sequence of events I can see is to add the 3 Minute Lie. He has changed his original story.
In Lovelady's same-day affidavit he never left the steps but now, in his WC testimony, after hearing from Gloria, he races across to "that little, old island" with Shelley. The problem is, we already know from his affidavit, Shelley ran across there before Gloria got to the steps.
The Lie is falling apart.

You seem to be suggesting that Shelley and Lovelady were conspiring together to lie about how long it took for Baker and Truly to enter the TSBD. But they never said that they entered three minutes after the shots. They said they met Gloria Calvery 3 minutes after the shots.

If you'd bothered to read the WC testimonies you would see that both Lovelady and Shelley are crystal clear that:
They were on the steps at the time of the shooting.
They were still on the steps when Gloria came running up to them.
Then they ran across the Elm Street extension.
Then they saw Baker and Truly still outside the TSBD building.

If it took Gloria at least three minutes to reach the front steps then, according to Shelley and Lovelady, Truly and Baker were still outside the TSBD building at least three minutes after the shooting because Shelley and Lovelady saw them there after they saw Gloria.

They never said that they met Gloria Calvery before they crossed Elm St. That was Ball's take.

This is utter horsesh$t. They are both absolutely specific that they crossed Elm Street after seeing Gloria.

Lovelady - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street.

Shelley - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute

I have to assume this is just complete ignorance on your behalf. It's either that or outright dishonesty.

To some extent it is based on Shelley and Lovelady's statements.

To what extent is your timing of Adams' movements based on the testimonies of Shelley and Lovelady.
What other testimonies are you basing it on?

It may be basic to you but you are not taking into account the evidence.  If that was the case, she could not have seen Shelley and Lovelady walking across the first floor then.  Are you suggesting that she did not see them immediately after coming down the stairs as you suggest?

Do you even know what the Stroud document is?

There is no serious doubt that Shelley and Lovelady lied about their movements after the assassination. The 3 Minute Lie is proof of this.
The Darnell footage, the Truly/Baker time trials and their own affidavits prove they lied
It is hard to decide whether you are being dishonest with your spurious claims or you are simply ignorant of the evidence.
In future it would be courteous to at least provide at least a scrap of evidence to support your misguided claims.

[Dan O'meara]

How about trying to answer with the understanding that would entail some speculation since you have gone on and on about this accusing them of "intentional" lies?  Why would someone in their position intentionally lie about their movements under oath?  Are you suggesting they were involved in the conspiracy to kill the president and frame Oswald and their role in this plot was to lie about their movements?  If so, that is very silly.  If not, it is difficult to understand why you think they would intentionally lie.

Are you saying they didn't lie about their movements after the assassination?

Both men testified that they were on the steps for at least three minutes before Gloria came running up.
Both men testified that after Gloria told them about the shooting they ran across the Elm Street extension to "that little, old island".
Both men testified that it was after they left the steps they turned and saw Truly and Baker still outside the TSBD building.
Are you familiar with the Darnell footage?
Are you familiar with the Truly/Baker time trials?
Are you familiar with the testimony of Vicki Adams?

Using your patented logic, you seem to be saying that they weren't lying because you can't think of a reason why they would lie.
But they were lying - so where does that leave you?

[Richard Smith]

Are you saying they didn't lie about their movements after the assassination?

Both men testified that they were on the steps for at least three minutes before Gloria came running up.
Both men testified that after Gloria told them about the shooting they ran across the Elm Street extension to "that little, old island".
Both men testified that it was after they left the steps they turned and saw Truly and Baker still outside the TSBD building.
Are you familiar with the Darnell footage?
Are you familiar with the Truly/Baker time trials?
Are you familiar with the testimony of Vicki Adams?

Using your patented logic, you seem to be saying that they weren't lying because you can't think of a reason why they would lie.
But they were lying - so where does that leave you?

To "intentionally lie" under oath in the case of the assassination of the president is not something anyone would do lightly.   You are not suggesting that they were merely mistaken but have claimed they knowingly lied.  Both of them in collusion.  It raises the obvious question - why?  They would only do so if they had a VERY GOOD reason for doing so.  You apparently can't or won't even articulate any such possible reason understanding the absurdity of that claim in this context.  This is just another example of not seeing the forest for a subjective pedantic examination of the trees.  To accept your premise here, we have to believe that two random individuals decided to make up this story.   That is farfetched.  Where does that leave you?