T.F. Bowley, A Wind-Up Wristwatch & 1:17

[Bill Brown]

The McIntyre photo was obviously taken seconds after the assassination. The Hertz clock reads 12:30.

When we look at the Dallas Police tapes, we see that the very first call after the 12:30 timestamp call is Chief Curry stating:
“Go to the hospital - Parkland Hospital. Have them stand by.”
(A clear reference to the assassination)
 
This is an example of "real" time connecting with "police" time, probably within less than one minute.
"Real" time (the Hertz clock) says the assassination occurred at 12:30pm.
"Police" time (the tapes) says the assassination occurred at 12:30pm.
 
So why is it so difficult to accept that the police tapes are accurate when they show that T.F. Bowley called in the Tippit killing (using Tippit's squad car radio) at 1:17 (versus Bowley's statement that his watch read 1:10 when he arrived)?
 
Bowley's description of his actions upon arriving on the scene tells us he was on the patrol car radio in about one minute.
 
Was the clock in the dispatch room accurate at 12:30 and somehow very inaccurate by 1:17? The whole idea that the police tapes were off by as much as 6 minutes is complete nonsense.
 
Bowley arrives on the scene and walks over to the body and notes that there is nothing he can do for the officer.  He then goes to the patrol car, takes the mic from Benavides and reports the shooting to the dispatcher (Murray Jackson).  All in all, Bowley is on the radio about 60 to 90 seconds after arriving.  Bowley's report to the dispatcher was at 1:17.  Therefore, Bowley arrived around 1:15/1:16.  His 1960's era windup wristwatch, which he claims read 1:10 when he arrived, was 5 minutes slow.

[Martin Weidmann]

The McIntyre photo was obviously taken seconds after the assassination. The Hertz clock reads 12:30.

When we look at the Dallas Police tapes, we see that the very first call after the 12:30 timestamp call is Chief Curry stating:
“Go to the hospital - Parkland Hospital. Have them stand by.”
(A clear reference to the assassination)
 
This is an example of "real" time connecting with "police" time, probably within less than one minute.
"Real" time (the Hertz clock) says the assassination occurred at 12:30pm.
"Police" time (the tapes) says the assassination occurred at 12:30pm.
 
So why is it so difficult to accept that the police tapes are accurate when they show that T.F. Bowley called in the Tippit killing (using Tippit's squad car radio) at 1:17 (versus Bowley's statement that his watch read 1:10 when he arrived)?
 
Bowley's description of his actions upon arriving on the scene tells us he was on the patrol car radio in about one minute.
 
Was the clock in the dispatch room accurate at 12:30 and somehow very inaccurate by 1:17? The whole idea that the police tapes were off by as much as 6 minutes is complete nonsense.
 
Bowley arrives on the scene and walks over to the body and notes that there is nothing he can do for the officer.  He then goes to the patrol car, takes the mic from Benavides and reports the shooting to the dispatcher (Murray Jackson).  All in all, Bowley is on the radio about 60 to 90 seconds after arriving.  Bowley's report to the dispatcher was at 1:17.  Therefore, Bowley arrived around 1:15/1:16.  His 1960's era windup wristwatch, which he claims read 1:10 when he arrived, was 5 minutes slow.

What makes you think that the Hertz clock showed the "real" time?

Was the clock in the dispatch room accurate at 12:30 and somehow very inaccurate by 1:17?

Which clock are you talking about? There were several in the dispatch room and DPD supervisor Bowles has explained clearly what the problems with those clocks and time stamps were in relation to "real time".

The whole idea that the police tapes were off by as much as 6 minutes is complete nonsense.

The police tapes were not off. They merely recorded what was said over the radio. Too bad there was a (several minutes?) break in the recording starting at around 1.12!

Therefore, Bowley arrived around 1:15/1:16.  His 1960's era windup wristwatch, which he claims read 1:10 when he arrived, was 5 minutes slow.

If that's true, and the shooting took place at 1:14, what in the world was Helen Markham still doing there, when she should have been at the bus stop on Jefferson at 1:15?

[Dan O'meara]

What makes you think that the Hertz clock showed the "real" time?

Was the clock in the dispatch room accurate at 12:30 and somehow very inaccurate by 1:17?

Which clock are you talking about? There were several in the dispatch room and DPD supervisor Bowles has explained clearly what the problems with those clocks and time stamps were in relation to "real time".

The whole idea that the police tapes were off by as much as 6 minutes is complete nonsense.

The police tapes were not off. They merely recorded what was said over the radio. Too bad there was a (several minutes?) break in the recording starting at around 1.12!

Therefore, Bowley arrived around 1:15/1:16.  His 1960's era windup wristwatch, which he claims read 1:10 when he arrived, was 5 minutes slow.

If that's true, and the shooting took place at 1:14, what in the world was Helen Markham still doing there, when she should have been at the bus stop on Jefferson at 1:15?

If there was ever a topic posted that was aimed at a specific member of the forum it has to be this one for you.
This was a topic I had a go at myself but with limited results. I remember you made a compelling argument for the various timings but it was never really resolved before being derailed.
I also remember you and Bill had a bit of a head-to-head and, a little bit to my surprise I must confess, I felt you came out on top.

I'd like to chip in, if I may, with a comment about "real time".
As I understand it, Bill is not talking about some universally agreed standard of that particular day, which is why he has it in speech marks.
Bowles' reference to "real" time, whatever that may mean, is not what I believe Bill is talking about.
He would be better off calling it something like " Non-Police Time", which is a reference to the timings of events that are happening in the real world. (I could be completely wrong about this).
I'm assuming the point he is making is that "Police Time", the time recorded in the police transmissions, can be synched with "Non-Police Time", events in the real world.
Whether both of these things are Real Time is not the issue.

He notes that the Hertz clock (Non-Police Time) records the assassination at 12:30pm.
He then notes that recorded time on the radio transmissions (Police Time) at the time of the assassination is also 12:30pm.
So these two times are synched.
It must be noted that Dave Powers recalled it was 12:30pm just before the first shot rang out (Non-Police Time).
And Greer testified that Kellerman simply said "12:30" (Non-Police Time) as they entered the Underpass.
Here we have three independent, corroborating sources that confirm the timings of events in Dealey Plaza (Non-Police Time) were synched with the timing given out on the radio transmissions (Police Time).

It has nothing to do with some absolute or philosophical "Real Time".
If it can be shown that Police Time and Non-police Time are in perfect synch then a radio transmission at 12:30pm refers to a real world event that happened at 12:30pm. A radio transmission at 1:00pm refers to a real world event that happened at 1:00pm.

Unless, of course, the timings given are false or reconstructed in any way.
Or if the clock system in the Dispatchers Office, from which Police Time comes, is faulty.
Bill's point seems to be that Police Time and Non-Police Time are perfectly in synch at 12:30pm but that by the time it comes to the murder of Tippit, a six minute discrepancy has crept in between these two Times throwing them completely out of synch.
Bowles refers to such a possibility but is it a credible possibility?
On the flip side, I remember you had a matrix of interlocking evidence that pointed very strongly to this being the case. It was a compelling argument.
In my opinion, it would be good to thrash this issue out as, for me anyway, something about it wasn't quite resolved either way.

All that said, I might be completely misrepresenting where Bill is coming from and I should keep my big bazoo out of it.

[Bill Brown]

What makes you think that the Hertz clock showed the "real" time?

Was the clock in the dispatch room accurate at 12:30 and somehow very inaccurate by 1:17?

Which clock are you talking about? There were several in the dispatch room and DPD supervisor Bowles has explained clearly what the problems with those clocks and time stamps were in relation to "real time".

The whole idea that the police tapes were off by as much as 6 minutes is complete nonsense.

The police tapes were not off. They merely recorded what was said over the radio. Too bad there was a (several minutes?) break in the recording starting at around 1.12!

Therefore, Bowley arrived around 1:15/1:16.  His 1960's era windup wristwatch, which he claims read 1:10 when he arrived, was 5 minutes slow.

If that's true, and the shooting took place at 1:14, what in the world was Helen Markham still doing there, when she should have been at the bus stop on Jefferson at 1:15?

What makes you think that the Hertz clock showed the "real" time?

Unless you're going to argue that the Hertz clock was off by as much as six minutes, what's your point?

Which clock are you talking about? There were several in the dispatch room and DPD supervisor Bowles has explained clearly what the problems with those clocks and time stamps were in relation to "real time".

Bowles does indeed explain and nowhere in his explanation does he hint that the clock(s) could be off by as much as six minutes.  That would be nonsense.

In fact, here is what Bowles had to say:

"Therefore, it was not uncommon for the time stamped on calls to be a minute to two ahead or behind the "official" time shown on the master clock. Accordingly, at "exactly" 10:10, various clocks could be stamping from 10:08 to 10:12, for example. When clocks were as much as a minute or so out of synchronization it was normal procedure to make the needed adjustments. During busy periods this was not readily done."

If that's true, and the shooting took place at 1:14, what in the world was Helen Markham still doing there, when she should have been at the bus stop on Jefferson at 1:15?

Markham told Ball that she "got her bus" at 1:15.  Since there was no 1:15 bus, It's my opinion that she gets to the bus stop around 1:15 in order to catch the 1:22 bus.  If that is true, then it's perfectly reasonable that she's standing on the corner of Tenth and Patton (one block from her bus stop) at 1:14.

[Bill Brown]

If there was ever a topic posted that was aimed at a specific member of the forum it has to be this one for you.
This was a topic I had a go at myself but with limited results. I remember you made a compelling argument for the various timings but it was never really resolved before being derailed.
I also remember you and Bill had a bit of a head-to-head and, a little bit to my surprise I must confess, I felt you came out on top.

I'd like to chip in, if I may, with a comment about "real time".
As I understand it, Bill is not talking about some universally agreed standard of that particular day, which is why he has it in speech marks.
Bowles' reference to "real" time, whatever that may mean, is not what I believe Bill is talking about.
He would be better off calling it something like " Non-Police Time", which is a reference to the timings of events that are happening in the real world. (I could be completely wrong about this).
I'm assuming the point he is making is that "Police Time", the time recorded in the police transmissions, can be synched with "Non-Police Time", events in the real world.
Whether both of these things are Real Time is not the issue.

He notes that the Hertz clock (Non-Police Time) records the assassination at 12:30pm.
He then notes that recorded time on the radio transmissions (Police Time) at the time of the assassination is also 12:30pm.
So these two times are synched.
It must be noted that Dave Powers recalled it was 12:30pm just before the first shot rang out (Non-Police Time).
And Greer testified that Kellerman simply said "12:30" (Non-Police Time) as they entered the Underpass.
Here we have three independent, corroborating sources that confirm the timings of events in Dealey Plaza (Non-Police Time) were synched with the timing given out on the radio transmissions (Police Time).

It has nothing to do with some absolute or philosophical "Real Time".
If it can be shown that Police Time and Non-police Time are in perfect synch then a radio transmission at 12:30pm refers to a real world event that happened at 12:30pm. A radio transmission at 1:00pm refers to a real world event that happened at 1:00pm.

Unless, of course, the timings given are false or reconstructed in any way.
Or if the clock system in the Dispatchers Office, from which Police Time comes, is faulty.
Bill's point seems to be that Police Time and Non-Police Time are perfectly in synch at 12:30pm but that by the time it comes to the murder of Tippit, a six minute discrepancy has crept in between these two Times throwing them completely out of synch.
Bowles refers to such a possibility but is it a credible possibility?
On the flip side, I remember you had a matrix of interlocking evidence that pointed very strongly to this being the case. It was a compelling argument.
In my opinion, it would be good to thrash this issue out as, for me anyway, something about it wasn't quite resolved either way.

All that said, I might be completely misrepresenting where Bill is coming from and I should keep my big bazoo out of it.

I also remember you and Bill had a bit of a head-to-head and, a little bit to my surprise I must confess, I felt you came out on top.

This was over whether or not Ted Callaway got on the police radio to report the shooting before or after helping to load the body into the ambulance.  It really has no bearing on anything important either way, it's just something Weidmann and I were going back and forth on.  Having said that, if I was wrong (which I wasn't), then both Vince Bugliosi and Dale Meyers agree with my take and are also wrong.  Could they both be wrong, too?  Of course.  Are they?  No.

What I remember the most from all of that was that Martin challenged me to a debate on the Tippit case and when I accepted (telling him we could do a Skype/Youtube debate any time he felt ready), he declined.

[Martin Weidmann]

Unless you're going to argue that the Hertz clock was off by as much as six minutes, what's your point?

Bowles does indeed explain and nowhere in his explanation does he hint that the clock(s) could be off by as much as six minutes.  That would be nonsense.

In fact, here is what Bowles had to say:

"Therefore, it was not uncommon for the time stamped on calls to be a minute to two ahead or behind the "official" time shown on the master clock. Accordingly, at "exactly" 10:10, various clocks could be stamping from 10:08 to 10:12, for example. When clocks were as much as a minute or so out of synchronization it was normal procedure to make the needed adjustments. During busy periods this was not readily done."

Markham told Ball that she "got her bus" at 1:15.  Since there was no 1:15 bus, It's my opinion that she gets to the bus stop around 1:15 in order to catch the 1:22 bus.  If that is true, then it's perfectly reasonable that she's standing on the corner of Tenth and Patton (one block from her bus stop) at 1:14.

Unless you're going to argue that the Hertz clock was off by as much as six minutes, what's your point?

Isn't it your implicit point that the Hertz clock was absolutely correct? If not, what's the point you're trying to make?


Bowles does indeed explain and nowhere in his explanation does he hint that the clock(s) could be off by as much as six minutes.  That would be nonsense.

In fact, here is what Bowles had to say:

"Therefore, it was not uncommon for the time stamped on calls to be a minute to two ahead or behind the "official" time shown on the master clock. Accordingly, at "exactly" 10:10, various clocks could be stamping from 10:08 to 10:12, for example. When clocks were as much as a minute or so out of synchronization it was normal procedure to make the needed adjustments. During busy periods this was not readily done."

Bowles had a lot more to say than that. This only concerns the time stamps called out by the operator. Clocks used by the operators could differ from eachother and time stamps being called could be out of synch during heavy radio traffic. So, this alone allows for a difference in time between "real" time and the time stamps. But that's not all Bowles said. I have to paraphrase, but IIRC he also said that the clocks used by the operators were not in synch with the master clock used at the police station, which in turn was not in synch with the main clock used for determining "real time", located elsewhere (can't remember where exactly). There are so many variable elements that it would be nonsense to claim that the clocks used by the operators and/or the time stamps on the recordings can be relied upon. I would have to dig up my research on that subject, to be precise, but I do recall off hand that at a particular moment only 49 seconds elapsed between two time stamp calls by the operators, which off course is utterly impossible if the entire timing system was precise.

Markham told Ball that she "got her bus" at 1:15.  Since there was no 1:15 bus, It's my opinion that she gets to the bus stop around 1:15 in order to catch the 1:22 bus.  If that is true, then it's perfectly reasonable that she's standing on the corner of Tenth and Patton (one block from her bus stop) at 1:14.

It doesn't matter that there was no bus scheduled at exactly 1:15. The schedule showed a bus at 1:12 and one at 1:22. Markham could have taken either a delayed 1:12 bus or the next one at 1:22. The main point is that either way, she said she got her bus at 1:15, which means she would have had to have been at the bus stop on Jefferson at that time. As she would have needed to walk one more block from 10th street to Jefferson to get there by 1:15, there is no reasonable way that she would still have been at 10th/Patton at 1:14. Even less so, as she said she left home at 1 to make a phone call and then started walking down Patton at around 1:06 or 1:07.... A three minute walk would have gotten here to the corner of 10th and Patton by 1:09 or 1:10 at the latest. It just doesn't add up.

And the same goes for Bowley's trip from the school where he picked up his daughter to 10th street where he arrived just after the shooting. I have driven the route he took myself several times and it never took longer than 13 minutes, yet you seem to believe it must have taken him 17 minutes..... now, that's nonsense

[Martin Weidmann]

This was over whether or not Ted Callaway got on the police radio to report the shooting before or after helping to load the body into the ambulance.  It really has no bearing on anything important either way, it's just something Weidmann and I were going back and forth on.  Having said that, if I was wrong (which I wasn't), then both Vince Bugliosi and Dale Meyers agree with my take and are also wrong.  Could they both be wrong, too?  Of course.  Are they?  No.

What I remember the most from all of that was that Martin challenged me to a debate on the Tippit case and when I accepted (telling him we could do a Skype/Youtube debate any time he felt ready), he declined.

Stop trying to rewrite history. I already know that you will never admit to being wrong about anything, even though you keep claiming falsely that you would admit being wrong if proven so.

And no appeal to "authority" will help you either. That - as you claim - Bugliosi and Meyers agree with you, does not mean you were right. It only means they - like you - have an agenda and were wrong also as the facts are obvious and against you.

[Bill Brown]

Unless you're going to argue that the Hertz clock was off by as much as six minutes, what's your point?

Isn't it your implicit point that the Hertz clock was absolutely correct? If not, what's the point you're trying to make?


Bowles does indeed explain and nowhere in his explanation does he hint that the clock(s) could be off by as much as six minutes.  That would be nonsense.

In fact, here is what Bowles had to say:

"Therefore, it was not uncommon for the time stamped on calls to be a minute to two ahead or behind the "official" time shown on the master clock. Accordingly, at "exactly" 10:10, various clocks could be stamping from 10:08 to 10:12, for example. When clocks were as much as a minute or so out of synchronization it was normal procedure to make the needed adjustments. During busy periods this was not readily done."

Bowles had a lot more to say than that. This only concerns the time stamps called out by the operator. Clocks used by the operators could differ from eachother and time stamps being called could be out of synch during heavy radio traffic. So, this alone allows for a difference in time between "real" time and the time stamps. But that's not all Bowles said. I have to paraphrase, but IIRC he also said that the clocks used by the operators were not in synch with the master clock used at the police station, which in turn was not in synch with the main clock used for determining "real time", located elsewhere (can't remember where exactly). There are so many variable elements that it would be nonsense to claim that the clocks used by the operators and/or the time stamps on the recordings can be relied upon. I would have to dig up my research on that subject, to be precise, but I do recall off hand that at a particular moment only 49 seconds elapsed between two time stamp calls by the operators, which off course is utterly impossible if the entire timing system was precise.

Markham told Ball that she "got her bus" at 1:15.  Since there was no 1:15 bus, It's my opinion that she gets to the bus stop around 1:15 in order to catch the 1:22 bus.  If that is true, then it's perfectly reasonable that she's standing on the corner of Tenth and Patton (one block from her bus stop) at 1:14.

It doesn't matter that there was no bus scheduled at exactly 1:15. The schedule showed a bus at 1:12 and one at 1:22. Markham could have taken either a delayed 1:12 bus or the next one at 1:22. The main point is that either way, she said she got her bus at 1:15, which means she would have had to have been at the bus stop on Jefferson at that time. As she would have needed to walk one more block from 10th street to Jefferson to get there by 1:15, there is no reasonable way that she would still have been at 10th/Patton at 1:14. Even less so, as she said she left home at 1 to make a phone call and then started walking down Patton at around 1:06 or 1:07.... A three minute walk would have gotten here to the corner of 10th and Patton by 1:09 or 1:10 at the latest. It just doesn't add up.

And the same goes for Bowley's trip from the school where he picked up his daughter to 10th street where he arrived just after the shooting. I have driven the route he took myself several times and it never took longer than 13 minutes, yet you seem to believe it must have taken him 17 minutes..... now, that's nonsense

Isn't it your implicit point that the Hertz clock was absolutely correct? If not, what's the point you're trying to make?

My point should be obvious.  The Hertz clock needs to be off by six or seven minutes in order for the Tippit shooting to have taken place before 1:10.

Bowles had a lot more to say than that. This only concerns the time stamps called out by the operator. Clocks used by the operators could differ from eachother and time stamps being called could be out of synch during heavy radio traffic. So, this alone allows for a difference in time between "real" time and the time stamps. But that's not all Bowles said. I have to paraphrase, but IIRC he also said that the clocks used by the operators were not in synch with the master clock used at the police station, which in turn was not in synch with the main clock used for determining "real time", located elsewhere (can't remember where exactly). There are so many variable elements that it would be nonsense to claim that the clocks used by the operators and/or the time stamps on the recordings can be relied upon. I would have to dig up my research on that subject, to be precise, but I do recall off hand that at a particular moment only 49 seconds elapsed between two time stamp calls by the operators, which off course is utterly impossible if the entire timing system was precise.

But... and this is the important part... Bowles never says anything even remotely close to the idea that the clocks could be six or seven minutes apart/off, which is what is required for the Tippit shooting to have taken place before 1:10.

It doesn't matter that there was no bus scheduled at exactly 1:15. The schedule showed a bus at 1:12 and one at 1:22. Markham could have taken either a delayed 1:12 bus or the next one at 1:22. The main point is that either way, she said she got her bus at 1:15, which means she would have had to have been at the bus stop on Jefferson at that time. As she would have needed to walk one more block from 10th street to Jefferson to get there by 1:15, there is no reasonable way that she would still have been at 10th/Patton at 1:14. Even less so, as she said she left home at 1 to make a phone call and then started walking down Patton at around 1:06 or 1:07.... A three minute walk would have gotten here to the corner of 10th and Patton by 1:09 or 1:10 at the latest. It just doesn't add up.

No matter how you spin it, it is perfectly reasonable for one to be a block from the bus stop (on their way to that stop) eight minutes (1:14) before the bus is to arrive (1:22).