T.F. Bowley, A Wind-Up Wristwatch & 1:17

[Dan O'meara]

Yes.  I sent John Mytton a private message on what Benavides had said way back when Weidmann and I were participating in the mini-debate thread.  I was wondering if Weidmann was ever going to bring up what Benavides said but he never did.

However, the police tapes obviously don't mention the body being loaded into the ambulance, but the tapes do tell us when the ambulance was leaving the scene en route to Methodist Hospital.  The tapes tell us that the ambulance was leaving the scene as Callaway was making his report on the squad car radio.

According to Callaway, Tippit was loaded into the ambulance after he made the call.
According to Benevides, Tippit was loaded into the ambulance after Callaway made the call.
And it would appear that Scoggins testifies to the same thing:

Mr. Scoggins: And then I got out of the cab and run down there; the ambulance had already arrived by the time I got there, and they were in the process of picking the man up, and they had done had him, was putting him on the stretcher when I got there, and they put him in the ambulance and took him away, and there was someone that got on the radio at that time and they told him he was going to report it, so they told him to get off the air, that it had already been reported, and he picks up the officer's pistol that was laying on the ground, apparently fell out of his holster when he fell, and says, "Come on, let's go see if we can find him."

Mr. Belin: Mr. Scoggins, I started to ask you about the revolver of the policeman when you came and saw him. This was in his holster or on the street?
Mr. Scoggins: It was on the street whenever I saw it.
Mr. Belin: Do you know where it was with relation to the policeman's body?
Mr. Scoggins: It was there pretty close to his body, you know, like kind of under his body when they picked him up. It either fell out of his holster or was laying on the ground, one, I don't know which.
Mr. Belin: What did you see him do? This man came up and picked up the policeman's gun. He picked it up and said, "Let's go see if we can find him?"

Although he doesn't know Callaway's name Scoggins testifies to the same sequence - he makes the call, after which he picks up the pistol from where Tippit is still lying.

...the tapes do tell us when the ambulance was leaving the scene en route to Methodist Hospital.  The tapes tell us that the ambulance was leaving the scene as Callaway was making his report on the squad car radio.

This is simply not true. The tapes tell us no such thing. This is something you have completely made up.
Below is a copy of the relevant transcript of the tapes. The ambulance calls (602) are picked out with red stars.
Both calls are just the call numbers of the ambulance - 602
There is nothing else.
You have assigned your own meaning to them.



The bottom line is that all the key witnesses report the call being made before the body is removed and the tapes reveal nothing other than your own unsupported interpretation.
These two 602 calls are best explained by the ambulance driver, Butler. After realising it was a police officer lying in the street, Butler returned to his ambulance and tried to call in that the victim was a police officer but couldn't get through (because Callaway was in the process of making his call).
Butler's explanation can be found in this article:
https://kenrahn.com/JFK/History/WC_Period/Reactions_to_Warren_Report/Support_from_center/The_other_witnesses--Nashes.html

After reading through how you approached the mini-debate I do not expect any amount of evidence to change your mind about this aspect of the case and, to be quite frank, I couldn't care less. What I'd like to know is, what was the point of the mini-debate? Was it just about point-scoring over some trivial detail?

[Bill Brown]

According to Callaway, Tippit was loaded into the ambulance after he made the call.
According to Benevides, Tippit was loaded into the ambulance after Callaway made the call.
And it would appear that Scoggins testifies to the same thing:

Mr. Scoggins: And then I got out of the cab and run down there; the ambulance had already arrived by the time I got there, and they were in the process of picking the man up, and they had done had him, was putting him on the stretcher when I got there, and they put him in the ambulance and took him away, and there was someone that got on the radio at that time and they told him he was going to report it, so they told him to get off the air, that it had already been reported, and he picks up the officer's pistol that was laying on the ground, apparently fell out of his holster when he fell, and says, "Come on, let's go see if we can find him."

Mr. Belin: Mr. Scoggins, I started to ask you about the revolver of the policeman when you came and saw him. This was in his holster or on the street?
Mr. Scoggins: It was on the street whenever I saw it.
Mr. Belin: Do you know where it was with relation to the policeman's body?
Mr. Scoggins: It was there pretty close to his body, you know, like kind of under his body when they picked him up. It either fell out of his holster or was laying on the ground, one, I don't know which.
Mr. Belin: What did you see him do? This man came up and picked up the policeman's gun. He picked it up and said, "Let's go see if we can find him?"

Although he doesn't know Callaway's name Scoggins testifies to the same sequence - he makes the call, after which he picks up the pistol from where Tippit is still lying.

...the tapes do tell us when the ambulance was leaving the scene en route to Methodist Hospital.  The tapes tell us that the ambulance was leaving the scene as Callaway was making his report on the squad car radio.

This is simply not true. The tapes tell us no such thing. This is something you have completely made up.
Below is a copy of the relevant transcript of the tapes. The ambulance calls (602) are picked out with red stars.
Both calls are just the call numbers of the ambulance - 602
There is nothing else.
You have assigned your own meaning to them.



The bottom line is that all the key witnesses report the call being made before the body is removed and the tapes reveal nothing other than your own unsupported interpretation.
These two 602 calls are best explained by the ambulance driver, Butler. After realising it was a police officer lying in the street, Butler returned to his ambulance and tried to call in that the victim was a police officer but couldn't get through (because Callaway was in the process of making his call).
Butler's explanation can be found in this article:
https://kenrahn.com/JFK/History/WC_Period/Reactions_to_Warren_Report/Support_from_center/The_other_witnesses--Nashes.html

After reading through how you approached the mini-debate I do not expect any amount of evidence to change your mind about this aspect of the case and, to be quite frank, I couldn't care less. What I'd like to know is, what was the point of the mini-debate? Was it just about point-scoring over some trivial detail?

Dan, you're simply incorrect about Scoggins.  Read what he said again.

The police tapes obviously don't mention the body being loaded into the ambulance, but the tapes do tell us when the ambulance was leaving the scene en route to Methodist Hospital.  The tapes tell us that the ambulance was leaving the scene as Callaway was making his report on the squad car radio.

602 (ambulance):   602.       
Dispatcher:   85.       
85 (Ptm. R.W. Walker):   85.       
Dispatcher:   Suspect running west on Jefferson from the location.       
85 (Ptm. R.W. Walker):   10-4.       
Dispatcher:   No physical description.       
Citizen (Callaway):   Hello, hello, hello.       
602 (ambulance):   602.       
Citizen (Callaway):   Pardon, from out here on Tenth Street, 500 block. This officer just shot. I think he's dead.
Dispatcher:   10-4. We have that information. The citizen using the radio: Remain off the radio now.



That "602" was Butler attempting to let dispatch know that they were leaving the scene en route to the hospital.  However, he could not get through because Callaway is on the squad car radio reporting the incident (as the ambulance is speeding off).


After arriving on the scene in the ambulance, Butler and Kinsley rolled Tippit's body over (he was lying on his stomach) in order to place Tippit onto the stretcher..  Callaway noticed Tippit's service revolver lying on the street (it was underneath the body).  Callaway picked up the revolver and placed it on the hood of the patrol car and then helped Bowley, Butler and Kinsley load Tippit's body into the ambulance.

T.F. Bowley stated in his affidavit that once Tippit's body was loaded into the ambulance, he saw the service revolver lying on the hood of the patrol car (having been placed there moments earlier by Callaway).  Bowley picked up the revolver off of the hood and placed on the front seat of the patrol car.

"When the ambulance left, I took the gun and put it inside the squad car." -- T.F. Bowley (12/2/63 affidavit)

After making his report to the police dispatcher on the squad car radio, Callaway grabbed the service revolver from the front seat and proceeded to seek others to help him go off in search for the killer.

More evidence that Callaway helped load the body into the ambulance BEFORE he got on the police radio to report the shooting...

"And then I got out of the cab and run down there; the ambulance had
already arrived by the time I got there, and they were in the process
of picking the man up, and they had done had him, was putting him on
the stretcher when I got there, and they put him in the ambulance and
took him away, and there was someone that got on the radio at that
time and they told him he was going to report it, so they told him to
get off the air, that it had already been reported, and he picks up
the officer's pistol that was laying on the ground, apparently fell
out of his holster when he fell, and says, "Come on, let's go see if
we can find him." -- WILLIAM SCOGGINS

The "someone that got on the radio" was Callaway and the "at that
time" was once the ambulance "took him away".

Domingo Benavides said that Callaway got on the patrol car radio to report the shooting and the "officer" at the other end (the dispatcher) told Callaway that they already had that information and to stay off the air.  Benavides then said that Callaway grabbed the service revolver and said to Benavides that they should go chase the killer.  Benavides said he declined and added that Callaway then went over to the cab driver (Scoggins).

[Dan O'meara]

Dan, you're simply incorrect about Scoggins.  Read what he said again.

The police tapes obviously don't mention the body being loaded into the ambulance, but the tapes do tell us when the ambulance was leaving the scene en route to Methodist Hospital.  The tapes tell us that the ambulance was leaving the scene as Callaway was making his report on the squad car radio.

602 (ambulance):   602.       
Dispatcher:   85.       
85 (Ptm. R.W. Walker):   85.       
Dispatcher:   Suspect running west on Jefferson from the location.       
85 (Ptm. R.W. Walker):   10-4.       
Dispatcher:   No physical description.       
Citizen (Callaway):   Hello, hello, hello.       
602 (ambulance):   602.       
Citizen (Callaway):   Pardon, from out here on Tenth Street, 500 block. This officer just shot. I think he's dead.
Dispatcher:   10-4. We have that information. The citizen using the radio: Remain off the radio now.



That "602" was Butler attempting to let dispatch know that they were leaving the scene en route to the hospital.  However, he could not get through because Callaway is on the squad car radio reporting the incident (as the ambulance is speeding off).


After arriving on the scene in the ambulance, Butler and Kinsley rolled Tippit's body over (he was lying on his stomach) in order to place Tippit onto the stretcher..  Callaway noticed Tippit's service revolver lying on the street (it was underneath the body).  Callaway picked up the revolver and placed it on the hood of the patrol car and then helped Bowley, Butler and Kinsley load Tippit's body into the ambulance.

T.F. Bowley stated in his affidavit that once Tippit's body was loaded into the ambulance, he saw the service revolver lying on the hood of the patrol car (having been placed there moments earlier by Callaway).  Bowley picked up the revolver off of the hood and placed on the front seat of the patrol car.

"When the ambulance left, I took the gun and put it inside the squad car." -- T.F. Bowley (12/2/63 affidavit)

After making his report to the police dispatcher on the squad car radio, Callaway grabbed the service revolver from the front seat and proceeded to seek others to help him go off in search for the killer.

More evidence that Callaway helped load the body into the ambulance BEFORE he got on the police radio to report the shooting...

"And then I got out of the cab and run down there; the ambulance had
already arrived by the time I got there, and they were in the process
of picking the man up, and they had done had him, was putting him on
the stretcher when I got there, and they put him in the ambulance and
took him away, and there was someone that got on the radio at that
time and they told him he was going to report it, so they told him to
get off the air, that it had already been reported, and he picks up
the officer's pistol that was laying on the ground, apparently fell
out of his holster when he fell, and says, "Come on, let's go see if
we can find him." -- WILLIAM SCOGGINS

The "someone that got on the radio" was Callaway and the "at that
time" was once the ambulance "took him away".

Domingo Benavides said that Callaway got on the patrol car radio to report the shooting and the "officer" at the other end (the dispatcher) told Callaway that they already had that information and to stay off the air.  Benavides then said that Callaway grabbed the service revolver and said to Benavides that they should go chase the killer.  Benavides said he declined and added that Callaway then went over to the cab driver (Scoggins).

 
As I said Bill, no amount of evidence was ever going to change you're mind.
A couple of things:
What was the point of the debate about Callaway? What difference does it make whether he called in before or after the body was removed?
When you write things like this - "That "602" was Butler attempting to let dispatch know that they were leaving the scene en route to the hospital." - do you know you're just making up what you believe it means? You do realise that you are just plucking this interpretation of what the "602" means out of thin air?

[Dan O'meara]

Examining the transcripts of the DPD tapes, there's something I find very unusual.
Between 12:54pm and 1:09pm on channel 2 there are hardly any transmissions:
Chism asks for a squad to pick up some blood.
Souter asks for info on JFK and JBC's condition.
And that's basically it.
More or less, for 15 minutes there appears to be radio silence.
I find this almost inconceivable.
Are there transmissions at this time that aren't recorded in the transcripts?

These are the transcripts I'm using:
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/dpdtapes/tapes2.htm

[Bill Brown]

As I said Bill, no amount of evidence was ever going to change you're mind.
A couple of things:
What was the point of the debate about Callaway? What difference does it make whether he called in before or after the body was removed?
When you write things like this - "That "602" was Butler attempting to let dispatch know that they were leaving the scene en route to the hospital." - do you know you're just making up what you believe it means? You do realise that you are just plucking this interpretation of what the "602" means out of thin air?

Do you at least understand that you're wrong to say that Scoggins is a witness to use in favor of Weidmann's argument that Callaway first made the radio call and then helped load the body?  It's very clear that Scoggins says the opposite of what you tried to use him for above.

As for the purpose of the argument over whether or not Callaway helped load the body first or got on the radio first, it's only relevant when trying to determine a timeline related to how soon Callaway was on the radio after hearing the shots.  Interestingly, if Weidmann is right (he isn't), then it helps my timeline in determining that the shooting of Tippit occurred at 1:14/1:15 versus earlier.

It's not a huge point either way, it's just something Weidmann and I were discussing and we decided to both have a go at it.

In all honesty, I don't really wish to rehash this tired old argument, anyway.

This thread is about Bowley and if he really arrived at 1:10.

[Dan O'meara]

Do you at least understand that you're wrong to say that Scoggins is a witness to use in favor of Weidmann's argument that Callaway first made the radio call and then helped load the body?  It's very clear that Scoggins says the opposite of what you tried to use him for above.

You're 100% wrong about Scoggins. You don't present the full part of his testimony dealing with this issue whereas I do.
He is absolutely clear that Callaway makes his call and then picks the gun up:

"...there was someone that got on the radio at that time and they told him he was going to report it, so they told him to get off the air, that it had already been reported, and he picks up the officer's pistol that was laying on the ground..."

I don't understand how you're interpreting this any other way.
Also, I don't think it's helpful to examine each testimony in isolation. It's clear Callaway, Benevides and Scoggins are all talking about the same event and they all corroborate each other.
Not that this will sway you in any way.

As for the purpose of the argument over whether or not Callaway helped load the body first or got on the radio first, it's only relevant when trying to determine a timeline related to how soon Callaway was on the radio after hearing the shots.  Interestingly, if Weidmann is right (he isn't), then it helps my timeline in determining that the shooting of Tippit occurred at 1:14/1:15 versus earlier.

I was kind of thinking that Martin's point was better for a shooting at 1:14/1:15 and yours would have left too much time to fill in.
That was really confusing me.

It's not a huge point either way, it's just something Weidmann and I were discussing and we decided to both have a go at it.

In all honesty, I don't really wish to rehash this tired old argument, anyway.

This thread is about Bowley and if he really arrived at 1:10.

I personally think only way this issue will be resolved is if it can be shown definitively that the tapes have been falsified.
I agree with the OP, that the Hertz clock is synched with the dispatchers clock on Channel 2.
I think this means the dispatchers clock is synched with the main clock in the dispatchers office which is synched with the City Hall and that all these are in synch with the Hertz clock and the watches of Powers and Kellerman.
But, as Bowles points out, it is an unwieldy system and subject to a certain amount of inconsistency. However, I imagine it is also a self-regulating system and find it very difficult to believe it could lose 6 minutes in 45 minutes. Particularly as there is 15 minutes of almost radio silence on channel 2 so it's not like the dispatchers are rushed off their feet.

Falsifying the transmissions would literally consist of reconstructing all the actual transmissions (or at least the dispatchers transmissions), which seems fanciful, to say the least, even if the reason to do this would be because the original transmissions revealed it was impossible for Oswald to be on Tenth and Patton at the time of Tippit's murder.

[Bill Brown]

You're 100% wrong about Scoggins. You don't present the full part of his testimony dealing with this issue whereas I do.
He is absolutely clear that Callaway makes his call and then picks the gun up:

"...there was someone that got on the radio at that time and they told him he was going to report it, so they told him to get off the air, that it had already been reported, and he picks up the officer's pistol that was laying on the ground..."

I don't understand how you're interpreting this any other way.
Also, I don't think it's helpful to examine each testimony in isolation. It's clear Callaway, Benevides and Scoggins are all talking about the same event and they all corroborate each other.
Not that this will sway you in any way.

I was kind of thinking that Martin's point was better for a shooting at 1:14/1:15 and yours would have left too much time to fill in.
That was really confusing me.

I personally think only way this issue will be resolved is if it can be shown definitively that the tapes have been falsified.
I agree with the OP, that the Hertz clock is synched with the dispatchers clock on Channel 2.
I think this means the dispatchers clock is synched with the main clock in the dispatchers office which is synched with the City Hall and that all these are in synch with the Hertz clock and the watches of Powers and Kellerman.
But, as Bowles points out, it is an unwieldy system and subject to a certain amount of inconsistency. However, I imagine it is also a self-regulating system and find it very difficult to believe it could lose 6 minutes in 45 minutes. Particularly as there is 15 minutes of almost radio silence on channel 2 so it's not like the dispatchers are rushed off their feet.

Falsifying the transmissions would literally consist of reconstructing all the actual transmissions (or at least the dispatchers transmissions), which seems fanciful, to say the least, even if the reason to do this would be because the original transmissions revealed it was impossible for Oswald to be on Tenth and Patton at the time of Tippit's murder.

You're 100% wrong about Scoggins. You don't present the full part of his testimony dealing with this issue whereas I do.
He is absolutely clear that Callaway makes his call and then picks the gun up:

"...there was someone that got on the radio at that time and they told him he was going to report it, so they told him to get off the air, that it had already been reported, and he picks up the officer's pistol that was laying on the ground..."

I don't understand how you're interpreting this any other way.

Again...

"And then I got out of the cab and run down there; the ambulance had
already arrived by the time I got there, and they were in the process
of picking the man up, and they had done had him, was putting him on
the stretcher when I got there, and they put him in the ambulance and
took him away, and there was someone that got on the radio at that
time and they told him he was going to report it, so they told him to
get off the air, that it had already been reported, and he picks up
the officer's pistol that was laying on the ground, apparently fell
out of his holster when he fell, and says, "Come on, let's go see if
we can find him." -- WILLIAM SCOGGINS

The "someone that got on the radio" was Callaway and the "at that
time" was once the ambulance "took him away".

[Dan O'meara]

Again...

"And then I got out of the cab and run down there; the ambulance had
already arrived by the time I got there, and they were in the process
of picking the man up, and they had done had him, was putting him on
the stretcher when I got there, and they put him in the ambulance and
took him away, and there was someone that got on the radio at that
time and they told him he was going to report it, so they told him to
get off the air, that it had already been reported, and he picks up
the officer's pistol that was laying on the ground, apparently fell
out of his holster when he fell, and says, "Come on, let's go see if
we can find him." -- WILLIAM SCOGGINS

The "someone that got on the radio" was Callaway and the "at that
time" was once the ambulance "took him away".

Again:

Scoggins - "...there was someone that got on the radio at that time and they told him he was going to report it, so they told him to get off the air, that it had already been reported, and he picks up the officer's pistol that was laying on the ground..."

That "someone" was Callaway. He was on the radio and then he picked up the pistol.

Benevides - "...he opened the car door and picked up the phone and called in and told them there was an officer that had been killed. But the officer on the other side of the radio told him to hang up the phone to keep the lines clear, or something of that sort.
Then he jumped out and ran around and he asked me did I see what happened, and I said yes. And he said let's chase him...he was reaching down and getting the gun out of the policeman's hand"

Callaway was on the radio then he picked up the pistol

Callaway - "So I got on the police radio and called them, and told them a man had been shot, told them the location, I thought the officer was dead. They said we know about it, stay off the air, so I went back.
By this time an ambulance was coming. The officer was laying on his left side, his pistol was underneath him. I kind of rolled him over and took his gun out from under him."

Callaway was on the radio then he picked up the pistol.

The passage of Scoggin's testimony that you're posting over and over again is just a general description of the things that were going on around the time he arrived on the scene, not in linear sequence. If you read further on in his testimony it all becomes clear but you notably refuse to do that.
When you see his testimony alongside that of Callaway and Benevides it is perfectly clear what is being said.

But it doesn't matter Bill. It's a little detail and you should really drop it.
It's obvious you're not interested in the evidence I'm presenting and that's your choice. It's obvious you're going to carry on thinking what you want to think no matter how much evidence is produced to the contrary.
I think anyone reading these posts can make their own minds up about the issue.