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Author Topic: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.  (Read 18166 times)

Online Charles Collins

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Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #336 on: January 27, 2025, 09:57:14 PM »
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Myers doesn't identify what frames W001 to W015 are.  In all of Wiegman's films on Youtube, the sequence in front of the TSBD starts with what looks like Myers' W015.

Furthermore, there seems to be a difference between the data that Myers posts on his site pages:


and the data that Myers posts in his .pdf version:



He says in the first page that W001 was 3.66 seconds before the head shot and then in the pdf version he says that it was 2.95 seconds before.

If the first is correct, there are an additional 14 frames after W001 at 24 frames per second (as he says on his site page) then the frame that I showed (which appears to be his W015) is 14/24=.58 seconds closer to the head shot (i.e. 3.66-.58=3.08 seconds or 56.3 frames before or z257).   

If the second is correct, there are an additional 14 frames after W001 at 25.8 frames per second (as he says in his pdf version) then the frame that I showed (which appears to be his W015) is 14/25.8=.54 seconds closer to the head shot (i.e. 2.95-.54=2.41 seconds or 44 zframes before z313 or or z269). 

The first cannot be reconciled with Altgens photo at z255.  The second is better but it means that the Cabell car made the entire turn from not being visible in the intersection at z255 (Altgens) - to the position it is seen in W015 - already pointing down Elm St. in 14 zframes or .76 seconds.

I note that in his pdf version Myers does not use the 24 frames per second speed of Wiegman.  Without any evidence of actual testing, he says that the speed is 25.8 frames per second in order to match the previous conclusion that Wiegman ends at z447.

Sorry if I don't find his methods or conclusions persuasive.


Sorry if I don't find his methods or conclusions persuasive.

Actually either you don’t understand his methods. Or you are just trying to dismiss his work because you came to different conclusions than he did. I suspect that both are probably the case here.

In the section of the pdf version that you posted, Myers says that frame 6 is the first clear frame. I infer from that that there are the expected number of frames between W001 and W015. If you look at the graphic in that pdf you will notice that Myers does not show all the frames of any of the films. He apparently skips frames, as he sees fit, to show only what he intended to show (how the films synchronize with each other).


The first cannot be reconciled with Altgens photo at z255.  The second is better but it means that the Cabell car made the entire turn from not being visible in the intersection at z255 (Altgens) - to the position it is seen in W015 - already pointing down Elm St. in 14 zframes or .76 seconds.

Sorry, but you are wrong. Actually, all the cars had to do was move a little over 1-car-length each (they were traveling at about 10-mph at that time, according to the Mark Tyler animation). In the image below I have drawn red dots and lines showing how, when they move only about one car-length each, the line of sight from the passenger compartment of Camera Car 1 lines up with the area of the left rear tire of the Cabell car and lines up with the highway sign pole on the island between Elm Street Extension and Elm Street (just as they do in the W015 frame). Also, in this image we can see the yellow highlight of Altgen’s camera’s field of view. The Cabell car has not yet reached it, but slightly more than one car-length further and it is fully inside Altgen’s camera’s field of view. My red marks are only to give you a rough idea of things and are not intended to be exact. But I have no doubt that the cars moving at ~10-mph would have traveled that far.





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Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #336 on: January 27, 2025, 09:57:14 PM »


Online Andrew Mason

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Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #337 on: Today at 05:39:06 PM »

Sorry if I don't find his methods or conclusions persuasive.

Actually either you don’t understand his methods. Or you are just trying to dismiss his work because you came to different conclusions than he did. I suspect that both are probably the case here.
I don't have any particular conclusion about Wiegman. The particular section in front of the TSBD starts after the first shot.  Whether it starts before the second shot depends on when you think the second shot occurred. Wiegman doesn't say.

But you are right about the last part. I don't understand his methods.  That's because he bases everything on his 3D computer model that he does not disclose. He just gives us distances and angles from his model.  And his 3D model is made from photographs so it must be accurate with no margin of error. Right. I wrote and mailed a letter to Myers in July 2002 (sent it to his publisher as I didn't have his email address) asking about the problems I was having with the trajectory from the SN from his model. I was hoping he would tell me what angles and distances (relating to the men in the car) he was using.  He emailed back (then using dalekmyers@earthlink.net) saying he was limited in what he could say:

"I am currently working on several areas related to the computer
project, "Secrets of a Homicide," and therefore am limited in what
I can discuss in detail at this time."

and just said he noted problems with my drawings but did not offer to provide the actual distances and angles he was using:

"I do note a number of problems in your drawings, most of which,
revolve around projecting 2D lines of sight onto images that represent
3D environments. "

So, no, we don't know how Myers did his analysis because he just gives us the numbers that he thinks we should just accept because his model is perfect (at least to 3 significant figures and negligible margin of error).

Quote
In the section of the pdf version that you posted, Myers says that frame 6 is the first clear frame. I infer from that that there are the expected number of frames between W001 and W015. If you look at the graphic in that pdf you will notice that Myers does not show all the frames of any of the films. He apparently skips frames, as he sees fit, to show only what he intended to show (how the films synchronize with each other).
You would think he would provide a source for the Wiegman film so that we can see the frames he is referring to. They are not part of any version I have seen.

Quote
The first cannot be reconciled with Altgens photo at z255.  The second is better but it means that the Cabell car made the entire turn from not being visible in the intersection at z255 (Altgens) - to the position it is seen in W015 - already pointing down Elm St. in 14 zframes or .76 seconds.

Sorry, but you are wrong. Actually, all the cars had to do was move a little over 1-car-length each (they were traveling at about 10-mph at that time, according to the Mark Tyler animation). In the image below I have drawn red dots and lines showing how, when they move only about one car-length each, the line of sight from the passenger compartment of Camera Car 1 lines up with the area of the left rear tire of the Cabell car and lines up with the highway sign pole on the island between Elm Street Extension and Elm Street (just as they do in the W015 frame).

Also, in this image we can see the yellow highlight of Altgen’s camera’s field of view. The Cabell car has not yet reached it, but slightly more than one car-length further and it is fully inside Altgen’s camera’s field of view. My red marks are only to give you a rough idea of things and are not intended to be exact. But I have no doubt that the cars moving at ~10-mph would have traveled that far.


Good point.  This shows the position of Altgens at z255 when Altgens actually took the photo standing in the left lane a few feet from the curb:


The position of the Cabell car is some distance from the right side of Altgens' field of view and appears to be about a car-length, not 2 zframes, from the position it is in here:


Online Royell Storing

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Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #338 on: Today at 06:13:38 PM »
  That cartoon visual aid of the cars on Elm St is horse pucky. The recent release of the 0:44 NBC Darnell Film discredits these previously accepted timelines. That NBC Darnell Film 0:44 begins with the Camera Car #2 Driver STANDING outside of that stock-still car. Camera Car #1 is in front of it also is standing STOCK STILL. How long have these cars been standing still? And when pondering this, remember that this same film shows Wiegman running down the Knoll, as does the Couch Film. Tick, tick, tick. And these camera cars in the Darnell Film are standing very close to where Wiegman was filming in front of the TSBD. The distance from that turn in front of the TSBD to where these cars are Now Documented to be standing still is minimal. The time lines/journeys of the cars on this cartoon visual aid have been discredited by the NBC Darnell Film.   
« Last Edit: Today at 06:16:58 PM by Royell Storing »

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Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #338 on: Today at 06:13:38 PM »


Online Charles Collins

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Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #339 on: Today at 07:19:05 PM »
I don't have any particular conclusion about Wiegman. The particular section in front of the TSBD starts after the first shot.  Whether it starts before the second shot depends on when you think the second shot occurred. Wiegman doesn't say.

But you are right about the last part. I don't understand his methods.  That's because he bases everything on his 3D computer model that he does not disclose. He just gives us distances and angles from his model.  And his 3D model is made from photographs so it must be accurate with no margin of error. Right. I wrote and mailed a letter to Myers in July 2002 (sent it to his publisher as I didn't have his email address) asking about the problems I was having with the trajectory from the SN from his model. I was hoping he would tell me what angles and distances (relating to the men in the car) he was using.  He emailed back (then using dalekmyers@earthlink.net) saying he was limited in what he could say:

"I am currently working on several areas related to the computer
project, "Secrets of a Homicide," and therefore am limited in what
I can discuss in detail at this time."

and just said he noted problems with my drawings but did not offer to provide the actual distances and angles he was using:

"I do note a number of problems in your drawings, most of which,
revolve around projecting 2D lines of sight onto images that represent
3D environments. "

So, no, we don't know how Myers did his analysis because he just gives us the numbers that he thinks we should just accept because his model is perfect (at least to 3 significant figures and negligible margin of error).
You would think he would provide a source for the Wiegman film so that we can see the frames he is referring to. They are not part of any version I have seen.
Good point.  This shows the position of Altgens at z255 when Altgens actually took the photo standing in the left lane a few feet from the curb:


The position of the Cabell car is some distance from the right side of Altgens' field of view and appears to be about a car-length, not 2 zframes, from the position it is in here:



The position of the Cabell car is some distance from the right side of Altgens' field of view and appears to be about a car-length, not 2 zframes, from the position it is in here:



2 zframes!!!???  Read your earlier post where you yourself said “…14 zframes or 76 seconds”. The image I posted is cropped from an image that is designated to be at Z255.4 on Mark Tyler’s timeline. This is only ~.0166666667 seconds after your Z255.1 image and I submit is essentially the same as far at the positions of the cars and the position of Altgens go. In that cropped image, with the red marks and line, I show that it only takes about a car length difference for the car to be in the same alignment as in W015.

It seems obvious to me that Myers’ timeline probably simply evolved from an initial finding to what it is in the graphic of the synchronization of the films. And that he probably just hasn’t revised his initial finding on his web page that you submitted. I haven’t looked for it on his web page, but unless you have seen it recently, he may have revised it by now. Even if I am wrong, I think Dale Myers would have a reasonable explanation for the discrepancy. And it appears to me that the time indicated in the graphic, (W001 = Z259; W015 = Z270) which I indicated to begin with, is reasonably accurate and does not suffer from the problem you are imagining. When you adjust for the same beginning of the Wiegman film, if there is much difference between Myers’ timeline versus Tyler’s timeline; I believe that it would be due to Tyler’s (as he put it) “rough” synchronization method. You can dismiss Dale Myers’ work if you wish. I couldn’t care less. But I don’t think the problem you are imagining exists.

« Last Edit: Today at 07:20:15 PM by Charles Collins »

Online Andrew Mason

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Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #340 on: Today at 09:39:31 PM »

The position of the Cabell car is some distance from the right side of Altgens' field of view and appears to be about a car-length, not 2 zframes, from the position it is in here:



2 zframes!!!???  Read your earlier post where you yourself said “…14 zframes or 76 seconds”.
I was responding to your statement that I was wrong when I said "The first cannot be reconciled with Altgens photo at z255.".  The "first" refers to Myers' web page which has W001 3.66 seconds before the head shot which puts W015 at z256-257.  I didn't say his "second" could not be reconciled with Altgens.  I just said it required the Cabell car to go from not being visible in Altgens to having completed the turn onto Elm in .76 seconds.

Quote
The image I posted is cropped from an image that is designated to be at Z255.4 on Mark Tyler’s timeline. This is only ~.0166666667 seconds after your Z255.1 image and I submit is essentially the same as far at the positions of the cars and the position of Altgens go. In that cropped image, with the red marks and line, I show that it only takes about a car length difference for the car to be in the same alignment as in W015.
It is a bit difficult to stop Tyler's animation at the right spot.  He uses the 255.1 frame in the cover to his manual. I wasn't sure what frame you were using. There is not much difference, I agree. Besides, there is also some uncertainty in exactly when Altgens took his #6 photo - it could be z254-z256 based on Jackie's hand on JFK's right sleeve and the car-right flag flutter. I would suggest that z254-z255 is probably more accurate.

Quote
It seems obvious to me that Myers’ timeline probably simply evolved from an initial finding to what it is in the graphic of the synchronization of the films. And that he probably just hasn’t revised his initial finding on his web page that you submitted. I haven’t looked for it on his web page, but unless you have seen it recently, he may have revised it by now. Even if I am wrong, I think Dale Myers would have a reasonable explanation for the discrepancy. And it appears to me that the time indicated in the graphic, (W001 = Z259; W015 = Z270) which I indicated to begin with, is reasonably accurate and does not suffer from the problem you are imagining. When you adjust for the same beginning of the Wiegman film, if there is much difference between Myers’ timeline versus Tyler’s timeline; I believe that it would be due to Tyler’s (as he put it) “rough” synchronization method. You can dismiss Dale Myers’ work if you wish. I couldn’t care less. But I don’t think the problem you are imagining exists.
Myers' work appears to be, from an animation point of view, well done.  But the problems arise because it is not possible to check his work, being based on a model that he keeps secret and will not share.  He presents it as highly accurate but doesn't show any error range.  This is not the way a scientific analysis should be presented.  I would be interested to know how his model compares to the Knott Laboratory model created by using actual measurement data obtained by a laser scan of Dealey Plaza.

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Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #340 on: Today at 09:39:31 PM »