Oswald's Marine Corp Rifle Scorebook

[Zeon Mason]

Oswald was perhaps Capable of an 80% score while using a semi auto M1 Garand rifle firing at targets at the same approx elevation as the shooter , while using a shooting position that the shooter in the TSBD was not likely using.

The ? Is ihowxolaysubke it is to extrapolate from that test that Oswald would be able to rapidly fire 2 shots with an old bolt action MC rifle that would be so close together that witnesses perceived the shots to be “back to back” , Or only about 1 sec apart like Lee Bowers demonstrated rapping his hand on the desk in video that Mark Lane recorded.

[Richard Smith]

Oswald was perhaps Capable of an 80% score while using a semi auto M1 Garand rifle firing at targets at the same approx elevation as the shooter , while using a shooting position that the shooter in the TSBD was not likely using.

The ? Is ihowxolaysubke it is to extrapolate from that test that Oswald would be able to rapidly fire 2 shots with an old bolt action MC rifle that would be so close together that witnesses perceived the shots to be “back to back” , Or only about 1 sec apart like Lee Bowers demonstrated rapping his hand on the desk in video that Mark Lane recorded.

"Back to back" is a subjective description.  Given that we are dealing with a sudden, unexpected and shocking event, and trying to drill down to what happened in a matter of a few seconds, such descriptions are informative but shouldn't be construed as literal.  It could simply mean that two shots were closer together than the other shot.  Comparative and only lending insight on the timing by implication to the pause between the other shot. The basic question is this.  Is there anything about this scenario that precludes Oswald from having fired three shots from the 6th floor of the TSBD with his MC rifle and hitting JFK twice?  He was trained in the USMC.  His rifle was functional.  The distance was not great.  Nothing about the circumstances suggests that he couldn't have done this or even that it was unlikely.  I certainly would not like my chances driving in slow moving vehicle down Elm St. while a USMC trained shooter firing three shots.  I don't think anyone else here would.

[John Mytton]

The ? Is ihowxolaysubke it is to extrapolate from that test that Oswald would be able to rapidly fire 2 shots with an old bolt action MC rifle that would be so close together that witnesses perceived the shots to be “back to back” , Or only about 1 sec apart like Lee Bowers demonstrated rapping his hand on the desk in video that Mark Lane recorded.

First of all this was Bowers' Hallucination on the day of the assassination. Oops!

Mr. BALL - Did you see any activity in this high ground above Elm after the shot?
Mr. BOWERS - At the time of the shooting there seemed to be some commotion, and immediately following there was a motorcycle policeman who shot nearly all of the way to the top of the incline.
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/bowers.htm

Secondly, these shooters who had Actual Real World experience with Bolt Action Rifles, said that the shot spacing in Dealey Plaza could be accomplished with a bolt action rifle.

Mr. BELIN - Have you had occasion to use a bolt action rifle and fire shots quickly one after the other?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; I have.
Mr. BELIN - Did it appear that, from what you heard, that from your experience you could have operated your own bolt action rifle as quickly as those shots came?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/baker_m1.htm

BREHM said that a third shot followed and that all three shots were relatively close together. BREHM stated that he was in military service and he has had experience with bolt-action rifles, and he expressed the opinion that the three shots were fired just about as quickly as an individual can maneuver a bolt-action rifle, take aim, and fire three shots.
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/brehm.htm



Btw what does "ihowxolaysubke" mean?

JohnM

[Zeon Mason]

@Mr.Spock (JohnM) : I do not know how that unknown gobbledegook word appeared but I did not type it that way.  It must have been changed by some quirk in the programming ( maybe Kirk tampered with it?) when I tapped the post button.

As to Bowers, he’s not the only witness who seems to recall the last 2 shots so close together as to rule out a 4.8 sec spread from Z.224 to Z313.

Even if you could manage to convince skeptics like me ( since I do not believe I am an extreme type CT as you may have encountered over the years) that there’s a shot fired way back at Z150 the problem still remains that the spacing is in conflict with the majority of witness hearing the 1…..2..3 pattern and with the closest witness, Harold Norman who completes his replication of the 3 shots he heard in about 4 secs.

So are you suggesting that I discount  Normans recall of the shot spacing also?

Seems improbable to me that Norman would remember 3 shots spaced over 7-8 seconds ( if proposing Z150-160 1st shot ) being completed in only 4 secs or less)

Most every video recording I’ve seen of Norman doing his boom click click sequence , he completes it in 4 secs ( or even less)

So no disrespect to you JohnM , the senior expert on the WC theory , but I cannot  dismiss just those parts of  Bowers or Norman or Markam statements which conflict with the WC theory while retaining only those parts that support it.

[John Mytton]

@Mr.Spock (JohnM) : I do not know how that unknown gobbledegook word appeared but I did not type it that way.  It must have been changed by some quirk in the programming ( maybe Kirk tampered with it?) when I tapped the post button.

As to Bowers, he’s not the only witness who seems to recall the last 2 shots so close together as to rule out a 4.8 sec spread from Z.224 to Z313.

Even if you could manage to convince skeptics like me ( since I do not believe I am an extreme type CT as you may have encountered over the years) that there’s a shot fired way back at Z150 the problem still remains that the spacing is in conflict with the majority of witness hearing the 1…..2..3 pattern and with the closest witness, Harold Norman who completes his replication of the 3 shots he heard in about 4 secs.

So are you suggesting that I discount  Normans recall of the shot spacing also?

Seems improbable to me that Norman would remember 3 shots spaced over 7-8 seconds ( if proposing Z150-160 1st shot ) being completed in only 4 secs or less)

Most every video recording I’ve seen of Norman doing his boom click click sequence , he completes it in 4 secs ( or even less)

So no disrespect to you JohnM , the senior expert on the WC theory , but I cannot  dismiss just those parts of  Bowers or Norman or Markam statements which conflict with the WC theory while retaining only those parts that support it.

Harold Norman in later recollections was simply describing with brevity what he heard in regards to the Boom, click, click, Boom, click, click, Boom, click, click.

Norman's early affidavit specifically states that there was a time interval of "several seconds" between the first and second shots.

"Just after the President passed by, I heard a shot and several seconds later I heard two more shots. I knew that the shots had come from directly above me, and I could hear the expended cartridges fall to the floor."
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/norman_1.htm

Even more importantly Norman tells us the weapon he heard was a bolt action rifle, which by nature has a distinct sound and just happens to match Oswald's rifle which was found on the floor above.

"I also could here the bolt action of the rifle."
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/norman_1.htm

Then Norman finally clarifies that he heard shells strike the floor above.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember whether or not you said anything to the men then as to whether or not you heard anything from above you?
Mr. NORMAN. Only I think I remember saying that I thought I could hear the shell hulls and the ejection of the rifle.
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/norman.htm

And surprise, surprise, surprise, there was three shells found in the sniper's nest directly above Norman.



So in summation, there were eyewitnesses who were familiar with bolt action rifles who say the shots could have been fired by a bolt action rifle and then as you rightfully acknowledge, the closest eyewitness, Norman, says he heard a bolt action rifle from right above. What's left to argue?

Btw as for Helen Markham, she was only 1 of many who identified Oswald either at or moving away from the Tippit crime scene.

JohnM

[Zeon Mason]

Imo, if there’s a 1st shot fired as early as Z150-160, then the reason it was a complete miss was because the shooter , sitting on the box , (as Mr.Collins demonstrated in his self built full scale model of the SN),  maybe had to adjust himself more than he anticipated and he in haste fired the 1st  shot before he had his rifle securely resting on the top of the box on the window ledge.

Perhaps  he leaned over at about Z140, rested the rifle on the window ledge box, and then saw when he looked thru his scope or his iron sights that he couldn’t get JFK in his sight without partially standing, so being in a state of anxiety already. he tried  to stand up partially and take a shot and in doing so, maybe he did not lead the moving  target enough, since the limo at Z150-Z160 being a closer angle requires a faster tracking speed than at  the longer angle at. Z224.

Unfortunately the CBS trial shooters did NOT replicate this  theoretical firing position that Mr.Collins experiment shows is reasonably plausible.

[Charles Collins]

Imo, if there’s a 1st shot fired as early as Z150-160, then the reason it was a complete miss was because the shooter , sitting on the box , (as Mr.Collins demonstrated in his self built full scale model of the SN),  maybe had to adjust himself more than he anticipated and he in haste fired the 1st  shot before he had his rifle securely resting on the top of the box on the window ledge.

Perhaps  he leaned over at about Z140, rested the rifle on the window ledge box, and then saw when he looked thru his scope or his iron sights that he couldn’t get JFK in his sight without partially standing, so being in a state of anxiety already. he tried  to stand up partially and take a shot and in doing so, maybe he did not lead the moving  target enough, since the limo at Z150-Z160 being a closer angle requires a faster tracking speed than at  the longer angle at. Z224.

Unfortunately the CBS trial shooters did NOT replicate this  theoretical firing position that Mr.Collins experiment shows is reasonably plausible.

Thanks for the remarks Zeon. I am glad the experiments made an impression on you. There are some important ergonomic aspects that can only be learned by sitting in a full-sized mock up of the sniper’s nest with a rifle in hand and aiming at targets at the same approximate angles that the actual shots were estimated to have been taken at. As someone else pointed out, it is surprising that there has not been much attention paid to these ergonomic aspects. Here is a photo marked up that shows the targets and how close to the window box the rifle is when aiming at the Z160 target.





Another factor that I believe is relevant is the trigger pull weight of the Carcano rifle. According to Wikipedia, the M1 Garrand rifle’s average trigger pull weight is 6 to 6.5 lbs. And the minimum safe weight is 4.5 lbs. However, the Carcano rifle found on the sixth floor of the TSBD had a much lower trigger pull weight:

“The trigger pull was determined by the panel to be approximately 3 pounds.”

https://www.jfk-assassination.net/firearms_hsca.htm

Therefore, it appears that the Carcano rifle had a very significantly lower (around one-half) trigger pull weight than the average M1 rifle that LHO had trained extensively with while he was in the USMC. Even highly trained experts sometimes have guns inadvertently fire before they are completely ready. Especially when those guns have a significantly lighter trigger pull weight than what they have become accustomed to.

It seems to me that LHO would not have been likely to miss the entire limo when shooting a shot at the ~Z160 time frame unless the shot happened before he was completely ready and aimed to fire. I think the lighter trigger pull and possibly some interference from the window box, etc could have been factors that might have caused a missed shot.