Need Help Bulding a Physical Scale Model of Dealey Plaza

[Steve Barber]

  Hi All, 

  Does anyone here know of anyone who have taken meaurements of the dimensions of the concrete structures and so forth of Dealey plaza, e.g. pergola, retaining wall, triple underpass, pylons, peristyles, reflecting pool(s), knoll, infield grass, etc. ?  I'm in the making of an HO (1.87) scale replica of the plaza exactly as it was in 1963.  Thanks so much.   Steve

[Robert Reeves]

Robert Cutler's dealey plaza maps? I imagine there could be one he produced that provides detailed dimensions.

[Royell Storing]

    The section of Picket Fence that runs E-W/Parallel to Elm St is currently NOT in the same position it was on 11/22/63. Do you know how many feet (N) from its' current position the fence actually was on 11/22/63? The altered position of the picket fence resulted in confusing Gordon Arnold when he demonstrated his physical position inside Dealey Plaza during his "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" segment. Arnold filmed this segment 25 yrs after the assassination of JFK. The moving of that picket fence also screws up any/every investigation of possible shooter(s) positioned behind the picket fence. This includes investigating "The Badge Man". Bear in mind that if you Alter the position of the E-W section of the picket fence, then the N-S section of fencing also has to be Altered in order for these 2 sections of fencing to meet and form a corner. The moving of the picket fence along with the other many Physical Alterations of Dealey Plaza also impacts acoustic testing.     

[Charles Collins]

  Hi All, 

  Does anyone here know of anyone who have taken meaurements of the dimensions of the concrete structures and so forth of Dealey plaza, e.g. pergola, retaining wall, triple underpass, pylons, peristyles, reflecting pool(s), knoll, infield grass, etc. ?  I'm in the making of an HO (1.87) scale replica of the plaza exactly as it was in 1963.  Thanks so much.   Steve

Sounds like an interesting project. There are people here who have taken some measurements, etc. Hopefully they will be in contact with you. I think that PM might be the best method. Good luck with this and please let us see some progress and finished project photos!

[Royell Storing]

    Going down to Dealey Plaza today and critically examining the murder scene is almost a complete waste of time. They've even altered the Landing directly in front of the TSBD front door. (Prayer Man). And then there's the moving of the Picket Fence. A very critical piece of evidence.

[Charles Collins]

(Full-size of download: 4400x3200 pixels)

Here's the Topo Map with the 0.1% tilt correction. It's possible the aspect ratio was unintentionally altered during scanning; many scanners then had mechanical parts that wore or grew sluggish.

(Full-size of download: 4600x4000 pixels)

Now here's a good-resolution aerial or satellite photo (I had to stitch a few images together). I figured you wanted the North Yard and North Tower.

(Full-size of download: 7300x6000 pixels)

Finally here's my transparent overlay of the satellite photo onto the Topo Map. You can try your own figures. Here's mine. I tilted the aerial composite 14.4% and enlarged it 187.5%. It's all subjective, unfortunately. This particular overlay matches some of the building street-level bases and is close to the curvature of Elm Street.

My overlay method has the aerial short of the north curb on Main and it means the Topo Map got wrong the location of the pergola and the masonry structures by the pool. I wonder if those structures were surveyed on a different day, or rendered from an aerial, and added in later, inadvertently getting it wrong. If my placement of the aerial photo on the Topo Map is correct, then I would go with where the aerial shows the pergola, bridge and North Tower.

There's a trade off that's appropriate for you working with your own set of figures. It would be nice to get the Topo Map to work but you have to be aware of where it's wrong.

Now if you only wanted a generalized map, then the Cutler Plat would do. In my 3D model, I found that sloping Main (beginning at the west edge of Houston and ending just before the bridge entrance) 3.2° worked. The usual slope is said to be 3°, probably rounded.

The Knott Lab 3D scan of the physical Plaza is the modern way to extract figures and angles. You would need a very robust computer just to open that model. It would take years to clean up the extraneous noise in the scan and reduce the file size for home use. So we're left with the 2D approach.

Excellent work as always Jerry. You make that look easy but I know it’s hard.

[Steve Barber]

  Hi Charles, Jerry and Royell, Thanks so much for your interest in my project!  I just hope I can pull it off.

  Charles

I wish it could be O scale, but, trains are not inexpensive anymore, and I already own HO (1:87) Scale train "stuff" so, in order to make it look as authentic and real as possible, I have to go with the HO scale.  I did get some help from my pal, Dale Myers, who has given me some measurements and shared on big addition to my layout, in the form of the TSBD (See eBay link below).  So all I have to do is buy more Foamcore to make the remainder of the building.   I will definitely take photos during the progress, and the finished project, and share them. I know this is going to take a ling while, and the perfectionist in me wants to include all detail on the surface of the concrete structures and the facade of each building that I include in the layout-including the triple underpass.  The pergola is going to be a real challenge, with all the "windows" it has-especially that curved wall portion.  My plan is to have all the people lined up along Elm Street exactly as they were positioned on November 22, 1963, and there are plenty of "people" in HO scale size to use just for this purpose.  I'll just have to make adjustments on them, like changing the cloor of their clothing, hair, etc. I'm only featuring the limousine and hopefully the SS car, at this point.  Can't find HO scale motorcycle officers that will fit in with the time, nor can I find vehicles in the motorcade that match the originals, at this point.  Time will tell.      https://www.ebay.com/itm/295462637136?itmmeta=01HWB1RZ02SPHFP3FWH1ZJND42&hash=item44caf20e50:g:NhsAAOSwNihjzS9B&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA4HLkq7a%2FCMbW%2BV5jwbsjqO1Mi72Me1J4mKqMekEifFrZdr5U%2FTnw69LoU%2FdVCJhihsHxJtRDOU0agSmFlqXwrNGeiN%2Bf8sxWc82%2BRTNJPPOGLbOZFyXiC4tUOtNvUZYD0PHQ4zr2PGHFUJzpvJsBrLWlu7Vcy6u9IAWfqt3n2MBhGLrSSMn5OT%2Bl%2FpFVtGDgykgftSSU9pbb32iZwGlHsnNQkU4SyR%2BCYdHkx9uKIiSWvPk7XeXuz2dxk15zrSB8zCxf0eRs8ywB9GzMK%2F24wOuZJUm8bDXDaP3BWpzNi3Ae%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR47w4-HiYw

Hi Jerry!,

     Thanks a million for all your data and information, and your interest in my project!   
I may as well tell you--my math level is TERRIBLE, so I can't quite grasp some of the figures involved with this  Dale Myers was giving me meaurements for Elm Street length ( Ithink it was) and he lost me, lol.  So, I made some phone to Dallas after talking to Jerry Dealey (Of the Dealey Plaza family) and he gave me some information on how to get blue prints of the plaza and concrete structures.  I'm waiting on them to send the information via emai, which they offered to do.  Still, I'm going to try some of your suggestions.  Everything has to be converted into 1.87th (HO Scale) size from the original size. The TSBD, is about 100 sq. feet,  and converted from that size to ho scale equals out to 12  inches, by 12 inches-roughly.  I'm trying to get the measurements of the pergola, peristyles, relefting pools, and the two pylons, plus the triple underpass. It's very, very kind of you to share all this information with me, and I hope I can put it to use. 

  Hi Royell, Thanks a tonfor the info on the fence.  I had heard, years ago, about the stockade fence being moved from its original location, sometime after the assassination. When I get the blue prints from the person whom I spoke with in Dallas, hopefully, the fence's original location will be available, but at least there is film footage that was shot both the day of the assassination (the Darnell footage, and the SS re-enactment footage, a week after the shooting, that shows rather close-up, the original location of the fence and the Yaupon trees. I knew they replaced those little trees, and they probably did this when they moved the fence, I'm guessing.   I also didn't know that the entrance to the TSBD has been altered!  Why'd they do that?  I also wonder why they removed the banister in the middle of the stair case. I don't like the changes they've made to the plaza or the buildings and structures, at all.  Thanks again for the information!   

[James Hackerott]

Jerry,
Can you measure the distance from the retaining wall to the stockade fence? I have a laser measurement we can compare.