Need Help Bulding a Physical Scale Model of Dealey Plaza

[Charles Collins]

I found this in a search for scale car models that might give you a potential source:

1:87 scale - These are compatible with H0 scale model trains and tend to be more popular in the USA and continental Europe. They are more commonly made of plastic and German companies such as Herpa and Wiking, produce wide ranges of highly-detailed models in this scale.

[Steve Barber]

Jerry,
Can you measure the distance from the retaining wall to the stockade fence? I have a laser measurement we can compare.

  Hi James,

   I replied to your Message to me here on the Forum in the "Messages".  I didn't know that you had sent me a private message on the 22nd until yesterday.    My sincere apologies, sir. 

[James Hackerott]

If you mean measure on the Topo Map, it didn't come with a scale. I have seen it mentioned that it was 1 to 40 feet. I don't know if it's one foot-to-forty-feet?

The full un-cropped map scan is here: Link "Topo Map Rev.1981 (As Provided) 6112x3758 PNG"

The width of Elm Street is said to 40 feet ("The width of each concrete roadway through the Plaza is 40 feet." --WCR), which may be a rounded figure. On the Topo Map scan, the width of Elm Street is about 4 1/8". If the scale was 1 foot to 40 feet, then Elm Street should be a foot wide. The original map would be some 13 feet wide.

I can use the Elm Street width as a 40' scale. What part of the retaining wall to what part of the fence?

Jerry, thanks very much for the over-the-top attachments. I thought you probably already established a scale for the Topo map. The uncropped (original?) version indicates a scale of 1”=10ft. I estimate the scale is 10 pixels/foot for the digital copies, based on measuring sidewalks and shelter doorways known to be 6 feet wide. I measured the fence distance from the NS retaining wall parallel to the fence from the Topo map as 31.4'. Laser gave me 9595 mm, or 31.5' (one measurement). So any movement of that fence EW since the Topo (1981) would be only a few inches. One aspect of that Topo map that always bothered me was the, slightly rotated eastward, retaining wall. I never noticed that with the Cutler map. The amazing details found in your linked QOL Phase II plans seem to show the wall without that rotation. But even with the rotation in the Topo map the distance to the fence only varies an inch or two along the length of the wall. Do you know if that QOL document is available with legible measurements?

[James Hackerott]

  Hi James,

   I replied to your Message to me here on the Forum in the "Messages".  I didn't know that you had sent me a private message on the 22nd until yesterday.    My sincere apologies, sir.

No problems. I should be sending some work you are looking for of the pergolas soon.

[Steve Barber]

No problems. I should be sending some work you are looking for of the pergolas soon.

 Hi James,
   
   Thank you ever so much!  You don't know how much I appreciate you sharing these measurements and your time!

[Royell Storing]

Here's roughly how much the Pergola and stairway up the knoll are off in the Phrase-II Map using one of my aerial overlays to situate those items.

Trying a different rotation and enlargement value (the combinations would reach into the thousands) for the aerial might result in the aerial being a better match to the map. The aerial photo is not perfectly above the Plaza, which may be affecting the comparisons.

   A couple things here: (1) The E-W section of The Picket Fence was Not in-line with the Black Dog Man Nook. We see the Sun reflecting off the E-W section of the Picket Fence on the Willis 5 "Black Dog Man" photo. That reflection is (N)/Behind the Black Dog Man. There are many photos and film clips that display that E-W section of picket fence being (N) of the Black Dog Man Nook. (2) I do Not recall photos showing there being 2 Steps (N)/Behind the Black Dog Man Nook. There's film evidence of there being a Large TARP/TENT stretching over this area. The Tarp/Tent extends back close to the Pergola Shelter. This footage was taken shortly after the assassination. Maybe there was some Repair/Alteration work being done?   

[Royell Storing]

Doesn't the Phase-II Map show the E-W section of the fence would extend north of the retaining wall's south end? Willis06 shows the fence not extending as far north as Willis05.



The steps don't go north of the retaining wall's south edge. That's why I pointed out that the aerial doesn't show through the foliage the retaining wall's south edge. If we knew that, then we might be able to see if the Phase-II Map wrongly scale either the knoll steps or the retaining wall corner., or both. Or maybe their whole version of the Pergola and steps are not to scale.

Until then, I retained the Phase-II's scaling of the Pergola and the steps. I could see on the aerial where the steps met the sidewalk and that where I relocated the Phase-II Map's steps. Using other areas seen through the foliage, I placed the Phase-II Map's pergola main structure separately.

You should be able to work out why the steps and the retaining wall don't meet up correctly using the Phase-II Map's version of those items as relocated using an aerial photo.

   Do you know the DATE the "aerial" you are using was taken? As I said previously, I have seen footage of a TARP/TENT stretching from that "south edge" ALL the way back near the Shelter. It's possible there were alterations made within this area after the assassination and completed before this "aerial" was taken.  Do we know for a Fact that the retaining wall "south edge" which extended toward The Steps, ran perpendicular/right angle to the longer section of retaining wall? Is it possible that this "south edge" extension Angled away from the longer section of that wall? Generally mirroring a wedge/pie slice.

[Royell Storing]

                                     - JERRY -

         Thanks for the info. For starters, I challenge the E-W Picket Fence being in-line with the "Black Dog Man" section of retaining wall. Willis 5 refutes this as does many of the interviews/film opps that were conducted from the Top of the Triple Underpass and permitted viewing that E-W Picket Fence. These 2 views covers viewing the E-W Picket Fence in relation to the Black Dog Man section of the retaining wall from BOTH the West & East Directions. There's no question that the E-W Picket Fence stood several feet BEHIND the Black Dog Man section of the retaining wall on 11/22/63.
         If you wanna see the TARP/TENT images that were taken shortly after the assassination, go to You Tube  and search,   "1963 Secret Service Film (JFK Assassination Reconstruction) (Silent)" by David Von Pein 25:07.   The segment  showing the TARP/TENT  runs from 20:51-21:01. The TARP is on the (R) outside of the Circle/Cross Hairs the SS has imposed on the film. This TARP/TENT was filmed Before the Warren Report had been signed, sealed and delivered. That TARP therefore stretches over an extremely Active Crime Scene. Any possible changes to that area being conducted beneath that TARP would therefore render us an Altered Crime Scene
         If you want to see the Black Dog Man section of the retaining wall, look at the Gordon Arnold segment on "The Men Who Killed Kennedy". This would be a look at this area 25 yrs after he assassination.
         The Picket Fence being shown as in-line with the Black Dog Man section of the retaining wall on that Phase ll Map, was not their position relative to each other on 11/22/63.