Tippit Debate

[Michael Capasse]

None of your four documents reference any clock, and all are second, third, or fourth-hand accounts. As such they are usless for what you think you can prove.

  Those are official time documents 

[John Iacoletti]

think you meant CE 705 and not CD 705?

I meant CE 705 (which is what I said).

The CE705 transcripts were hastily done by people weren't transcriptionists. They aren't very good, to say the least. The best transcripts of channel one traffic  made by Russ Shearer using the Dix tape. They are, by far, the beast  and most complete transcript of channel one traffic.

The "best" by what criteria?  Only somebody with access to the original belts would be able to make that determination.  If the transcripts differ, perhaps the dubs did too.

 

[John Iacoletti]

In the 70's, Dallas Morning News reporter Earl Golz interviewed a nurse named Thompson, who was one of the Methodist ER staff attending to Tippit that afternoon. She said that the Methodist ER clock was off by 15 minutes that day. Dale Myers interviewed Dr Mohlenhoff, who assisted Dr Liguori's attempt to resuscitate Tippit. Mohlenhoff said that any timing discrepancy would have been due to issues with the Methodist time system. Therefore, your attempt to build a case around Methodist time will fail miserably, since you're relying on the least realiable clock that day.

And James Bowles said:

1. No exact record of "time" exists
2. The several clocks were not synchronized
3. The radio operators were not exact with regard to "time statements" on either radio

So there is no basis whatever to gauge the relative reliability of any of the various time claims.

Beside, this is all moot anyway, given that there is no way to determine how much time elapsed between the actual shooting and the "hello police operator call", even if you could accurately pinpoint when that happened.

[John Mytton]

lol - All clocks are wrong except for the time that implicate Oswald.   
Bowley said his watch could have been off, therefore it WAS. Todd hangs around laundromats looking for who might set a watch by the clock on the wall.
 Never did see anyone, therefore it was at least 1:15p https://jfk.boards.net/post/3903/thread

Meanwhile - 3 witnesses corroborate the earlier time of shooting (before 1:10p) - He just doesn't like them.
4 Documents also indicating an earlier time of death are obviously fudged.  https://jfk.boards.net/post/57/thread

And no matter how many times he says it. The dicta belt times just cannot be relied upon. - It is garbage.

The Eyewitnesses who said the guy was Oswald

Mr. BELIN - You used the name Oswald. How did you know this man was Oswald?
Mr. BENAVIDES - From the pictures I had seen. It looked like a guy, resembled the guy. That was the reason I figured it was Oswald.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything else as you heard her screaming?
Mrs. V DAVIS. Well, we saw Oswald. We didn't know it was Oswald at the time. We saw that boy cut across the lawn emptying the shells out of the gun.

Mr. BALL. Did you recognize anyone in that room?
Mrs. B DAVIS. Yes, sir. I recognized number 2.

Mr. CALLAWAY. No. And he said, "We want to be sure, we want to try to wrap him up real tight on killing this officer. We think he is the same one that shot the President. But if we can wrap him up tight on killing this officer, we have got him." So they brought four men in.
I stepped to the back of the room, so I could kind of see him from the same distance which I had seen him before. And when he came out, I knew him.
Mr. BALL. You mean he looked like the same man?
Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?
Mr. GUINYARD. I was looking--trying to see and after I heard the third shot, then Oswald came through on Patton running---came right through the yard in front of the big white house---there's a big two-story white house---there's two of them there and he come through the one right on the corner of Patton.

Mr. LIEBELER. Let me show you some pictures that we have here. I show you a picture that has been marked Garner Exhibit No. 1 and ask you if that is the man that you saw going down the street on the 22d of November as you have already told us.
Mr.REYNOLDS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Four? Did any one of the people look anything like strike that. Did you identify anyone in the lineup?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I identified the one we are talking about, Oswald. I identified him.

RUSSELL positively identified a photograph of LEE HARVEY OSWALD, New Orleans Police Department # 112723, taken August 9, 1963, as being identical with the individual he had observed at the scene of the shooting of Dallas Police Officer J.D. TIPPIT on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, at Dallas, Texas.
 
Mr. BALL. What about number two, what did you mean when you said number two?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Number two was the man I saw shoot the policeman.

The Jacket eyewitnesses

Mr. BENAVIDES - I would say he was about your size, and he had a light-beige jacket, and was lightweight.
Mr. BELIN - Did it have buttons or a zipper, or do you remember?
Mr. BENAVIDES - It seemed like it was a zipper-type jacket.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell them you saw?
Mr. CALLAWAY. I told them he had some dark trousers and a light tannish gray windbreaker jacket, and I told him that he was fair complexion, dark hair.

Mr. BALL. What kind of a jacket, what general color of jacket?
Mrs. MARKHAM. It was a short jacket open in the front, kind of a grayish tan.

Mr. BELIN. Was the jacket open or closed up?
Mrs. DAVIS. It was open.

Mrs. MARY BROCK, 4310 Utah, Dallas, Texas, advised that on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, she was at the Ballew Texaco Service Station located in the 600 block of Jefferson Street, Dallas, Texas. She advised that at approximately 1:30 PM a white male described as approximately 30 years of age; 5 feet, 10 inches; light—colored complexion, wearing light clothing, came past her walking at a fast pace, wearing a light—colored jacket and with his hands in his pockets.

Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this now. When you first saw this man, had the police car stopped or not?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; he stopped. When I saw he stopped, then I looked to see why he was stopping, you see, and I saw this man with a light-colored jacket on.

Mr. BALL. How was this man dressed that had the pistol in his hand?
Mr. GUINYARD. He had on a pair of black britches and a brown shirt and a lithe sort of light-gray-looking jacket.
Mr. BALL. A gray jacket.
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes; a light gray jacket and a white T-shirt.

Mrs. ROBERTS. He wasn't running, but he was walking pretty fast---he was all but running.
Mr. BALL. Then, what happened after that?
Mrs. ROBERTS. He went to his room and he was in his shirt sleeves but I couldn't tell you whether it was a long-sleeved shirt or what color it was or nothing, and he got a jacket and put it on---it was kind of a zipper jacket.

The eyewitnesses who positively identified Oswald and confirmed he was carrying a gun

Mr. BALL. Which way?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Towards Jefferson, right across that way.
Mr. DULLES. Did he have the pistol in his hand at this time?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He had the gun when I saw him.

Mr. BELIN - All right. Now, you said you saw the man with the gun throw the shells?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Well, did you see the man empty his gun?
Mr. BENAVIDES - That is what he was doing. He took one out and threw it

Mr. BALL. And what did you see the man doing?
Mrs. DAVIS. Well, first off she went to screaming before I had paid too much attention to him, and pointing at him, and he was, what I thought, was emptying the gun.
Mr. BALL. He had a gun in his hand?
Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything else as you heard her screaming?
Mrs. DAVIS. Well, we saw Oswald. We didn't know it was Oswald at the time. We saw that boy cut across the lawn emptying the shells out of the gun.

Mr. BALL. And how was he holding the gun?
Mr. CALLAWAY. We used to say in the Marine Corps in a raised pistol position.

Mr. BALL. What did you see him doing?
Mr. GUINYARD. He came through there running and knocking empty shells out of his pistol and he had it up just like this with his hand.
Mr. BALL. With which hand?
Mr. GUINYARD. With his right hand; just kicking them out.
Mr. BALL. He had it up?

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see this man's face that had the gun in his hand?
Mr.REYNOLDS. Very good.

HAROLD RUSSELL, employee, Johnny Reynolds Used Car Lot, 500 Jefferson Street, Dallas, Texas, advised that on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, he was standing on the lot of Reynolds Used Cars together with L.J. LEWIS and PAT PATTERSON, at which time they heard shots come from the vicinity of Patton and Tenth Street, and a few seconds later they observed a young white man running south on Patton Avenue carrying a pistol or revolver which the individual was attempting to either reload or place in his belt line.

Mr. BELIN. Did he have anything in his hand?
Mr. SCOGGINS. He had a pistol in his left hand.


The Police Officers who were confronted with the murdering Oswald.

Mr. McDONALD - My left hand, at this point.
Mr. BALL - And had he withdrawn the pistol
Mr. McDONALD - He was drawing it as I put my hand.
Mr. BALL - From his waist?
Mr. McDONALD - Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. When you saw Oswald's hand by his belt, which hand did you see then?
Mr. WALKER. He had ahold of the handle of it.
Mr. BELIN. Handle of what?
Mr. WALKER. The revolver.
Mr. BELIN. Was there a revolver there?
Mr. WALKER. Yes; there was.

Mr. HUTSON. McDonald was at this time simultaneously trying to hold this person's right hand. Somehow this person moved his right hand to his waist, and I saw a revolver come out, and McDonald was holding on to it with his right hand, and this gun was waving up toward the back of the seat like this.

Oswald even admitted carrying his revolver which exclusively matched the shells Oswald dropped at the scene.

Mr. STERN - Was he asked whether he was carrying a pistol at the time he was in the Texas Theatre?
Mr. BOOKHOUT - Yes; that was brought up. He admitted that he was carrying a pistol at the time he was arrested.


Mr. McCLOY. Was it a sharpshooter's or a marksman's? There are two different types, you know.
Mr. HOSTY. I believe it was a sharpshooter, sir. He then told Captain Fritz that he had been living at 1026 North Beckley, that is in Dallas, Tex., at 1026 North Beckley under the name O. H. Lee and not under his true name.
Oswald admitted that he was present in the Texas School Book Depository Building on the 22d of November 1963, where he had been employed since the 15th of October. Oswald told Captain Fritz that he was a laborer in this building and had access to the entire building. It had offices on the first and second floors with storage on third, fourth, fifth and sixth floors.
Oswald told Captain Fritz that he went to lunch at approximately noon on the 22d of November, ate his lunch in the lunchroom, and had gone and gotten a Coca Cola from the Coca Cola machine to have with his lunch. He claimed that he was in the lunchroom at the time President Kennedy passed the building.
He was asked why he left the School Book Depository that day, and he stated that in all the confusion he was certain that there would be no more work for the rest of the day, that everybody was too upset, there was too much confusion, so he just decided that there would be no work for the rest of the day and so he went home. He got on a bus and went home. He went to his residence on North Beckley, changed his clothes, and then went to a movie.
Captain Fritz asked him if he always carried a pistol when he went to the movie, and he said he carried it because he felt like it. He admitted that he did have a pistol on him at the time of his arrest, in this theatre, in the Oak Cliff area of Dallas. He further admitted that he had resisted arrest and had received a bump and a cut as a result of his resisting of arrest. He then denied that he had killed Officer Tippit or President Kennedy.

Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. He told me he went over and caught a bus and rode the bus to North Beckley near where he lived and went by home and changed clothes and got his pistol and went to the show. I asked him why he took his pistol and he said, "Well, you know about a pistol; I just carried it." Let's see if I asked him anything else right that minute. That is just about it.

JohnM

[John Mytton]

And James Bowles said:

1. No exact record of "time" exists
2. The several clocks were not synchronized
3. The radio operators were not exact with regard to "time statements" on either radio

So there is no basis whatever to gauge the relative reliability of any of the various time claims.

Beside, this is all moot anyway, given that there is no way to determine how much time elapsed between the actual shooting and the "hello police operator call", even if you could accurately pinpoint when that happened.

The Police radio time check @12:30 was synchronized with the Hertz time clock @12:30 above the TSBD.



Up to 1:16 the Police radio had no indication of Tippit's murder by Oswald.



And finally, some time after the 1:16 time check and before the 1:19 time check we have a concerned witness(Benavides and/or Bowley) giving details to Police dispatch.



JohnM

[Mitch Todd]

The "best" by what criteria?  Only somebody with access to the original belts would be able to make that determination.  If the transcripts differ, perhaps the dubs did too.

"Best" as in the transcript matches up more precisely to the recordings than any other alternative.

If you want to argue that there was a copy of the recording that conforms to CE 705, you need to provide evidence of it. Otherwise, that notion is just some random invention.   

[Mitch Todd]

Those are official time documents

It doesn't matter what you call them. None of your four documents reference any clock, and all are second, third, or fourth-hand accounts.

Further, three of your four sources work just fine with the Bowley transmission clocking in at 1:18 +/- 2 min.

[Michael Capasse]

It doesn't matter what you call them. None of your four documents reference any clock, and all are second, third, or fourth-hand accounts.

Further, three of your four sources work just fine with the Bowley transmission clocking in at 1:18 +/- 2 min.

I have no idea what you are talking about. I don't think you do either.