Tippit Debate

[Bill Brown]

can you show me a case where half a dozen people all mistakenly identify a suspect in broad daylight in the middle of the day?

That's exactly the point. If six witnesses watch an event, you'll get six different stories, yet here we are to believe that six people agreed about the identity of the same man.

Perhaps you're unaware of witnesses like Jimmy Burt, Bill Smith, Domingo Benavides and L.J. Lewis, none of whom positively identified Oswald.
You're pretending like it was six out of six who positively identified Oswald,.
The facts are that thirteen witnesses saw the killer shoot and/or flee.  But only nine of the thirteen said the guy was Oswald.
This makes your point completely invalid.

[John Mytton]

But don't forget that there is powerful evidence of Oswald being seen discarding shells that were an exclusive match to the revolver he was arrested with.

None of this is "powerful evidence". For the biggest part it's nothing more than the usual LN assumptions based on misrepresentation of the actual evidence.

You ask for "Conclusive Evidence", well here it is.

A number of eyewitnesses saw Oswald empty shells from his revolver. Direct Evidence

Mr. BELIN - What else did you see?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Then I seen the man turn and walk back to the sidewalk and go on the sidewalk and he walked maybe 5 foot and then kind of stalled. He didn't exactly stop. And he threw one shell and must have took five or six more steps and threw the other shell up, and then he kind of stepped up to a pretty good trot going around the corner

Barbara Jeanette Davis: When the police arrived Ishowed [sic] one of them where I saw this man emptying his gun and we found a shell.

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, we saw Oswald. We didn't know it was Oswald at the time. We saw that boy cut across the lawn emptying the shells out of the gun.

Mr. BALL. What did you see him doing?
Mr. GUINYARD. He came through there running and knocking empty shells out of his pistol and he had it up just like this with his hand.

The shells recovered at the scene in evidence are an exclusive match to Oswald's revolver. Forensic Evidence

Mr. EISENBERG. Did you examine the cartridge cases in Exhibit 594 in an attempt to determine whether they had been fired in Exhibit 143, the revolver, to the exclusion of all other revolvers?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I did.
Mr. EISENBERG. Can you tell us your conclusion?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. As a result of my examination, it is my opinion that those four cartridge eases, Commission Exhibit 594, were fired in the revolver, Commission Exhibit 143, to the exclusion of all other weapons.

Officer McDonald took the revolver from Oswald. Physical Evidence

Mr. BALL - Which hand was--was his right hand or his left hand on the pistol?
Mr. McDONALD - His right hand was on the pistol.
Mr. BALL - And which of your hands?
Mr. McDONALD - My left hand, at this point.
Mr. BALL - And had he withdrawn the pistol
Mr. McDONALD - He was drawing it as I put my hand.
Mr. BALL - From his waist?
Mr. McDONALD - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - What happened then?
Mr. McDONALD - Well, whenever I hit him, we both fell into the seats. While we were struggling around there, with this hand on the gun--
Mr. BALL - Your left hand?
Mr. McDONALD - Yes, sir. Somehow I managed to get this hand in the action also.
Mr. BALL - Your right hand?
Mr. McDONALD - Yes, sir. Now, as we fell into the seats, I called out, "I have got him," and Officer T. A. Hutson, he came to the row behind us and grabbed Oswald around the neck. And then Officer C. T. Walker came into the row that we were in and grabbed his left arm. And Officer Ray Hawkins came to the row in front of us and grabbed him from the front.
By the time all three of these officers had got there, I had gotten my right hand on the butt of the pistol and jerked it free.

The revolver in evidence is the same revolver as was sent to Oswald. Physical Evidence Documentary evidence



So we have Direct Evidence.
We have Forensic evidence.
We have Physical Evidence.
We have Documentary Evidence

JohnM

[John Mytton]

Perhaps you're unaware of witnesses like Jimmy Burt, Bill Smith, Domingo Benavides and L.J. Lewis, none of whom positively identified Oswald.
You're pretending like it was six out of six who positively identified Oswald,.
The facts are that thirteen witnesses saw the killer shoot and/or flee.  But only nine of the thirteen said the guy was Oswald.
This makes your point completely invalid.

 

AUSTIN was shown a photograph of LEE HARVEY OSWALD, New Orleans Police Department # 112—723, and advised he could not identify OSWALD as being the person who shot the Dallas police officer

ROBERT BROCK was shown a photograph of LEE HARVEY OSWALD, at which time he advised he could not positively identify

KINNETH was shown a photograph of LEE HARVEY OSWALD, at which time he advised he could not identify OSWALD as being the individual he had observed leaving the scene of the shooting of the Dallas police officer.

LEWIS was shown a photograph of LEE HARVEY OSWALD, New Orleans PD No. 112723, dated August 9, 1963, at which time Mr. LEWIS advised due to the distance from which he observed the individual he would hesitate to state whether the individual was identical with OSWALD.

SMITH advised that he did not believe it was OSWALD when he first saw OSWALD on TV because it looked like OSWALD had light colored hair.

JohnM

[Martin Weidmann]

Perhaps you're unaware of witnesses like Jimmy Burt, Bill Smith, Domingo Benavides and L.J. Lewis, none of whom positively identified Oswald.
You're pretending like it was six out of six who positively identified Oswald,.
The facts are that thirteen witnesses saw the killer shoot and/or flee.  But only nine of the thirteen said the guy was Oswald.
This makes your point completely invalid.

Perhaps you're unaware of witnesses like Jimmy Burt, Bill Smith, Domingo Benavides and L.J. Lewis, none of whom positively identified Oswald.

And none of them were at he line up! Go figure!

You're pretending like it was six out of six who positively identified Oswald

I'm not pretending at all. You were the one who brought up "half a dozen".

The facts are that thirteen witnesses saw the killer shoot and/or flee.  But only nine of the thirteen said the guy was Oswald.
This makes your point completely invalid.

How did those people know that the man they saw "fleeing" was in fact a killer?

[Martin Weidmann]

You ask for "Conclusive Evidence", well here it is.

A number of eyewitnesses saw Oswald empty shells from his revolver. Direct Evidence

Mr. BELIN - What else did you see?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Then I seen the man turn and walk back to the sidewalk and go on the sidewalk and he walked maybe 5 foot and then kind of stalled. He didn't exactly stop. And he threw one shell and must have took five or six more steps and threw the other shell up, and then he kind of stepped up to a pretty good trot going around the corner

Barbara Jeanette Davis: When the police arrived Ishowed [sic] one of them where I saw this man emptying his gun and we found a shell.

Mrs. DAVIS. Well, we saw Oswald. We didn't know it was Oswald at the time. We saw that boy cut across the lawn emptying the shells out of the gun.

Mr. BALL. What did you see him doing?
Mr. GUINYARD. He came through there running and knocking empty shells out of his pistol and he had it up just like this with his hand.

The shells recovered at the scene in evidence are an exclusive match to Oswald's revolver. Forensic Evidence

Mr. EISENBERG. Did you examine the cartridge cases in Exhibit 594 in an attempt to determine whether they had been fired in Exhibit 143, the revolver, to the exclusion of all other revolvers?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I did.
Mr. EISENBERG. Can you tell us your conclusion?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. As a result of my examination, it is my opinion that those four cartridge eases, Commission Exhibit 594, were fired in the revolver, Commission Exhibit 143, to the exclusion of all other weapons.

Officer McDonald took the revolver from Oswald. Physical Evidence

Mr. BALL - Which hand was--was his right hand or his left hand on the pistol?
Mr. McDONALD - His right hand was on the pistol.
Mr. BALL - And which of your hands?
Mr. McDONALD - My left hand, at this point.
Mr. BALL - And had he withdrawn the pistol
Mr. McDONALD - He was drawing it as I put my hand.
Mr. BALL - From his waist?
Mr. McDONALD - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - What happened then?
Mr. McDONALD - Well, whenever I hit him, we both fell into the seats. While we were struggling around there, with this hand on the gun--
Mr. BALL - Your left hand?
Mr. McDONALD - Yes, sir. Somehow I managed to get this hand in the action also.
Mr. BALL - Your right hand?
Mr. McDONALD - Yes, sir. Now, as we fell into the seats, I called out, "I have got him," and Officer T. A. Hutson, he came to the row behind us and grabbed Oswald around the neck. And then Officer C. T. Walker came into the row that we were in and grabbed his left arm. And Officer Ray Hawkins came to the row in front of us and grabbed him from the front.
By the time all three of these officers had got there, I had gotten my right hand on the butt of the pistol and jerked it free.

The revolver in evidence is the same revolver as was sent to Oswald. Physical Evidence Documentary evidence



So we have Direct Evidence.
We have Forensic evidence.
We have Physical Evidence.
We have Documentary Evidence

JohnM

So we have Direct Evidence.
We have Forensic evidence.
We have Physical Evidence.
We have Documentary Evidence

Too bad none of it is actually conclusive. It might have been if you didn't have to make the assumptions you are making.

[John Mytton]

So we have Direct Evidence.
We have Forensic evidence.
We have Physical Evidence.
We have Documentary Evidence

Too bad none of it is actually conclusive. It might have been if you didn't have to make the assumptions you are making.

Yawn!

You debate like a child, I present rock solid corroborated evidence and you say what amounts to "no it isn't".

JohnM

[Martin Weidmann]

Yawn!

You debate like a child, I present rock solid corroborated evidence and you say what amounts to "no it isn't".

JohnM

I present rock solid corroborated evidence and you say what amounts to "no it isn't".

Well, you say it is, so what's the difference?

And I have told you exactly why evidence which you claim is conclusive really isn't.
All you have to do is eliminate all the assumptions which you mistake for evidence and see what you are left with!

Rock solid.... give me a break   

[Bill Brown]

Perhaps you're unaware of witnesses like Jimmy Burt, Bill Smith, Domingo Benavides and L.J. Lewis, none of whom positively identified Oswald.

And none of them were at he line up! Go figure!

You're pretending like it was six out of six who positively identified Oswald

I'm not pretending at all. You were the one who brought up "half a dozen".

The facts are that thirteen witnesses saw the killer shoot and/or flee.  But only nine of the thirteen said the guy was Oswald.
This makes your point completely invalid.

How did those people know that the man they saw "fleeing" was in fact a killer?

I'm not pretending at all. You were the one who brought up "half a dozen".

I brought up no such thing.  You're confused.

How did those people know that the man they saw "fleeing" was in fact a killer?

Whether they knew the guy was a killer or not is irrelevant.  Stupid question.