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Author Topic: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.  (Read 15723 times)

Online Royell Storing

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Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #168 on: January 16, 2025, 01:13:42 PM »
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    Hickey riding in the (L) rear back seat of the Queen Mary means he probably could Not see this minor JFK hair flip. I think that Hickey is describing what he saw JFK's hair do when the Kill Shot struck. What IS evident from this Z Film snippet is how COMPLETELY FAR AROUND Gov Connally could turn in order to physically face JFK. For Gov Connally to turn this far around and actually face JFK, means there had to be the necessary space between the Limo side door and his jump seat in order to spin his knees around. That Connally jump seat was positioned well inboard the JFK Limo.

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Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #168 on: January 16, 2025, 01:13:42 PM »


Online Andrew Mason

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Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #169 on: January 16, 2025, 04:21:30 PM »
Tague vacillated over the years about being hit at shot two or shot three. I think near the end he did settle in that it was probably shot three.
I don't know what you are referring to but his WC testimony is pretty clear that there was a shot after the one that hit him and he was not hit on the first shot.

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I’d like to touch base on the debate over shot spacing. I think the shot spacing issue from testimony is interesting and could use more study to explain why there was a lot of testimony suggesting a compressed time for the last two shots.
The timing studies/estimates I have done indicate the shots were triggered at about z124, z219, z310. They were roughly equally spaced about 5 seconds apart. These times were based mostly on the forensics of film evaluation, considering both voluntary and involuntary human reactions, but not based on testimony. I am confident in the shot timing as estimated based on human reactions and prefer not to use witness testimony.

Separate from the conflicting analysis I get when not using witness testimony, there are a couple other reasons I have not been sold on the claim of an actual compressed time between shot 2 and 3 vs 1 and 2.

1)   There is a lot of testimony contrary to the shot 2 to 3 time compression vs 1 to 2.
-   I haven’t done a survey on this topic, but the general feeling I got when listening to witnesses in person on video recently when doing some general witness reviews is that there are nearly as many that think the spacing was about equal vs compressed.
I have compiled them all here.  I have added one more: NBC reporter Robert MacNeil so there are 63 witnesses, 48 of whom specifically recalled the 1.......2...3 pattern.

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Net, I am not sure what the true ratio is for witnesses of equal spacing vs compressed spacing for the last two shots.

2)   Nearly everybody changed their testimony which might give a clue as to how time perception may have changed during the last two shots. This dynamic should probably get more attention as recent studies indicate anxiety can make people underestimate how much time actually passes. I wonder if this may have played a role in the perceived time estimation between shots 2 and 3.

-   Nearly everyone that afternoon reported they heard an initial loud bang, some had a concern at that point but many were just annoyed and wanted to know what the hell it was.  Many thought it was a firecracker, but most soon realized it was followed by two shots. So technically their testimony initially was (firecracker, shot, shot). I don’t know of anyone who later on still maintained that initial perception of (firecracker, shot, shot) so everyone based on what they were told, or individually figured out, changed their testimony to (shot, shot, shot) i.e. three shots.

All the changing of testimony doesn’t make one feel warm and fuzzy, but in this case is probably justified and might shed light on how they perceived the spacing between the last two noises (two shots) vs the spacing between first two noises (a firecracker and a shot).

On the Zapruder film it seems that most of the ducking to the ground happened after the third shot, and that is when fear really set in. Between shot two and three was a transition to anxiety as the realization set in of gunshots going off around them, not firecrackers. Uncertainty and anxiety are believed to play a role in the perception of time passage.

A study at the Institute of Cognitive Neuroscience at University College London was designed to understand the effect anxiety and fear have on how we perceive time.
The researchers found that when people feel anxious, they underestimate how much time passes. In other words, anxiety makes time pass quicker. On the other hand, some people tend to slightly overestimate it when they feel afraid.

Could this mean 5 actual seconds between shots 2 and 3 was perceived by some to be like 2 or 3 seconds?
I don't know of anyone other than Emmett Hudson who changed his recollection of the spacing of the shots.  It would be helpful if you could actually give us references to their statements.  It is not really persuasive to suggest that witnesses were vague and not sure by giving us your vague and unsure impressions about what they may have said.

The distribution looks like this:


Listen to reporters Robert Jackson and Robert MacNeil speaking 50 years later. They still comment on the spacing:
Jackson at 1:30 and MacNeil at 00:22


Online John Iacoletti

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Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #170 on: January 16, 2025, 04:44:10 PM »
Tague was probably nicked by a bullet fragment from the Z-313 fatal head shot and spaced out on the timing, later.

Why is this "probable"?  Tague said that he heard another shot after he was hit.

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Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #170 on: January 16, 2025, 04:44:10 PM »


Online John Iacoletti

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Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #171 on: January 16, 2025, 04:47:34 PM »
Roselle's and Scearce's 2020 study (have you read it?) did not involve analyzing "earwitness accounts" in the traditional meaning of the term, but analyzing the caught-on-film timing of the conscious (i.e., not "startle") head movements made by seven witnesses (including JFK, Jackie, JBC and Nellie) in reaction to the unexpected sounds and vibrations of the first, missing-everything, shot.

I can think of few things more utterly subjective than interpreting "reactions" in a blurry, silent film.

Online John Iacoletti

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Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #172 on: January 16, 2025, 04:53:27 PM »
If you want to view this pristine Darnell Film, go to You Tube and search out,    "NBC 5 Archive Collection | Assassination Aftermath In Dealey Plaza | Darnell Film"    By - SixthFloorMuseum

I think it's still a copy that the 6FM has.


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Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #172 on: January 16, 2025, 04:53:27 PM »


Online Royell Storing

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Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #173 on: January 16, 2025, 05:51:32 PM »
I think it's still a copy that the 6FM has.


   John - What do you think about the Camera Car #2 Driver (0:00) just standing there outside of the car? All those cars are at a Dead Stop. Seeing Wiegman running down the Knoll on the Couch Film is a timeline as to how long these Camera Cars have been STOPPED at the corner of Elm/Houston.

Online Andrew Mason

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Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #174 on: January 16, 2025, 07:41:29 PM »
    Hickey riding in the (L) rear back seat of the Queen Mary means he probably could Not see this minor JFK hair flip. I think that Hickey is describing what he saw JFK's hair do when the Kill Shot struck. What IS evident from this Z Film snippet is how COMPLETELY FAR AROUND Gov Connally could turn in order to physically face JFK. For Gov Connally to turn this far around and actually face JFK, means there had to be the necessary space between the Limo side door and his jump seat in order to spin his knees around. That Connally jump seat was positioned well inboard the JFK Limo.
Remember, Hickey was standing in the back of the Secret Service car. And JFK was turned to his left so Hickey could see the left side of JFK's head from about 4 feet above from his standing position. That would enable him to see the top of the right side of his head. So I don't see why he did not see what he said he saw and that was (18H762 CE1024):
  • "The first shot of the second two seemed as if it missed because the hair on the right side of his head flew forward and there didn't seem to be any impact against his head.  The last shot seemed to hit his head and cause a noise at the point of impact which made him fall forward and to his left again."

I find it odd that he imagined but did not see something that is seen in the zfilm at or very close to the time the second shot may well have occurred (according to the shot pattern recalled by the vast majority of witnesses and as further supported by the turn to the rear that Greer made just after the second shot).

Offline Brian Roselle

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Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #175 on: January 17, 2025, 02:08:23 AM »
I can think of few things more utterly subjective than interpreting "reactions" in a blurry, silent film.

John, there was a little more involved in the technique than casually looking at reactions in a blurry, silent film.

If this is how you have interpreted how the analysis works then I have done a terrible job in conveying to readers how and why it works. That is my fault and your comment makes me wonder how many other folks may also have questions about it.  I need to remedy that.

Perhaps some additional context should be added to help other readers, and I’ll add it in three areas:
1)   A little more on how it works, its use and possible misuse.
2)   Some background on how it evolved, actually spurred on by this forum, and how it was reviewed.
3)   Reasons why the results are credible and the method reliable.

1) The technique was developed as a new forensic technique useful for misc occasions, not just the JFK case. It uses the observations on film of the start of surprise voluntary reactions in order to estimate when a surprising, sound occurred (specifically when the sound reached them). To use the technique in a shooting case using silent film you definitely should have some prior reason to believe that gunfire (or loud surprising sound like gunfire to elicit reactions) occurred in the particular event being evaluated. If you didn’t have any expectation of a surprising sound happening in the film being reviewed, this might not be the technique to use.
Since it relies some on statistics and on historic reaction time science modeling, it can, like any forensic method, have some variations and misreads when misusing a technique. Although you could do it, using only one data point is a misuse in my mind. That’s part of the reason the technique recommends averaging, using multiple observations, if at all possible, to reduce error, and I would recommend not using any sample point if someone was unsure about a particular observation. But if you review enough film slowly frame by frame, and at actual rate, you can get a pretty good sense of when you see a surprise reaction.

Another misuse can occur if looking at a situation with a sequential grouping of sounds, the technique would only be applicable analyzing for the first surprising sound in a grouping of sounds, as recent earlier sounds in a group can forewarn of subsequent sounds occurring and that would alter the analysis since “surprising” is no longer applicable after a first sound.

One clue that supports the reactions are surprise and have a common source is how close together these (surprise) reactions are, i.e. how they begin relative to each other. For surprise reactions you would expect to see them start at nearly the same time (within a second or so of each other). This is based on what has been determined what the population as a whole would do.

2) Now about the technique background as applied to JFK. In fact, I think I first connected up with Ken Scearce on the subject in this forum a long time ago when first starting to investigate reaction observations. Ken said my comments were very interesting and he had similar observations. I asked him to send me what he was talking about. When I got his notes, my jaw dropped as I was surprised to see that he had observed the same exact 7 people around the Presidential limo that I was commenting on, and the start of reactions he observed were basically identical to mine and ours were all within a couple of frames of each other. This is when I thought there is something here for the JFK case. To note, it was more than just seeing the same reactions, there was the proximity of seeing all the reactions start happening at about the same time, between Z140 and z150, which is within the 1 second timing I mentioned earlier for what the population would be expected to do on voluntary surprise reactions.

3) Reasons the results are credible and the method reliable.
A reliable theory has a few properties that are key. A basis that is accepted by technical experts, the ability to Predict results in the context, and Testability. I don’t know about other theories put forward, but this one has all three.

- A basis that is accepted by technical experts. This method has been reviewed and approved by two journals peer review groups, and published by one of them. Both journals told me it was good but I needed to trim out a lot of fat, I was too wordy (imagine that). The first journal that published it was the crime scene reconstruction journal. The second journal, a psychology journal, said that it was good, suggested some minor additions, but encouraged going to another journal since they debated about it and decided not to publish is because it was "not the subject matter they wanted at the time". I think once you include the Kennedy assassination topic that makes people nervous. An independent review by some professionals I know were aligned as well. Net, it has been accepted by a number of technical experts.

- The ability to Predict results in context. You have seen this method predicts a very narrow point in time (z124) as opposed to a large range over much later frames.
1) This result is newer but it predicted that there should be a subset of lower variability testimonies that aligns right with it. It predicted what the anchored testimony results would be almost to the frame.
2) It also predicted that Elsie Dorman should have a camera reaction (a startle reaction this time) at the predicted first shot frame. Analysis at the link below showed that this is indeed what appeared to happen, again at basically the exact predicted frame time. The link also appeared to show when the second shot was fired. https://sites.google.com/view/dorman-zapruder-sync-on-elm-st/home   
3) As follow up to its prediction of first shot trigger time, it indirectly suggested the idea of a minimum limo miss into pavement, which in turn would imply that the Tague mark was not the result of the first shot but another bullet fragment. Subsequent analysis of the Tague incident supports a prediction of a third shot head fragment as causing the Tague incident. 4) Another piece of work is not yet complete but the perception time results here would also predict there was no first shot at z160 as proposed from the acoustic analysis  (the film blur was voluntary panning effects and comes from some extended jiggle analysis which supports that conclusion).

The technique does all sorts of predictions that appear to agree with observations.

-The method is Testable. Testability in a scenario separate from the JFK assassination would be a sign of a credible and reliable method. Unfortunately, this was also done. This one is kind of a Twilight Zone moment for me. One Sunday morning in August 2019 I got an email from the Editor of the Journal that published the method saying it was accepted but had a few suggestions to add and he wanted to remove some fat. He previously said it would be nice if it could be used for future cases given the proliferation of security cameras, many without audio. Later that day the news came out that there was a mass shooting in Dayton overnight with 27 injured and 9 dead. A few days later the police had a news conference and said they were looking for any information and showed a silent surveillance video from the balcony of the bar near where the shooting happened. They said their estimate was 30 seconds from the beginning of the shooting to the end where you could see the last shot from a policeman’s gun into the dead offender. With 7 people visible on the silent patio video showing reactions, I used this technique of reactions of the people on the patio to estimate the offenders first shot and using the policeman’s last shot, estimated the shooting at 32.67 seconds. I sent this to Dayton law enforcement and said it was a shooting duration based on a developmental method. A few days later police found a surveillance video further down and across the street that had sound. The shots you could audibly hear on that video yielded an actual shooting event duration of 32.616 seconds. Our method was testably very close and better than the initial police estimate. It was also spookily off by 0.054 seconds.

Net, the method was testable, and succeeded, in another unfortunate set of circumstances.

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Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #175 on: January 17, 2025, 02:08:23 AM »