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Author Topic: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.  (Read 15396 times)

Online Tom Mahon

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Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #224 on: January 20, 2025, 04:21:11 AM »
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I'm not sure. I will have to try to measure it somehow tomorrow. What length would that short-rifle be?

40.2 inches

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Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #224 on: January 20, 2025, 04:21:11 AM »


Online Charles Collins

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Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #225 on: January 20, 2025, 10:58:55 AM »
Recent discussions regarding the sniper (possibly awkwardly) standing versus sitting or kneeling for an early shot taken about 9 seconds before Z133 (Z124H) prompted me to use my 3D model to test a sitting positon similar to my Z223 model. I found that a slight rotation at the waist of about 5 degrees along with head,  neck and arm adjustments allows a smooth transisiton through Z124H to Z223 and Z313 positions. Attached are four views from Z124H - Z223 including the models point of view from his left eye.




Excellent work (as usual) James. It appears to me that you have the shooter sitting on the seat box the entire time. I cannot see what position you have his left leg in. But other than that I think I understand how you set this up. I will attempt to see if I can duplicate this in my actual model. One thing that I think may come into play is the shape of the rifle. You show a thin line (of sight) clearing the box in the window. But when you take into account the height of the rifle and the scope mounted about 1-1/2” above the bore, is there interference with the box? I will post my findings using my model first chance I get. Thanks for this well-done work!

Online Charles Collins

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Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #226 on: January 20, 2025, 01:05:34 PM »
I tested James’ virtual model’s position in my actual model that I can personally be in and aim a rifle with similar dimensions to the Carcano found on the sixth floor of the TSBD. The results are:

1.  If I kneel on my left knee up close to or against the box below the window and lean towards the metal conduit and the window, I can see the Z133 target similar to what James’ model shows.

2.  When I try to aim the rifle at the Z133 target, it places the butt of the stock well above my right shoulder (similar to how the line of sight goes well above James’ models’ right shoulder.

3. Therefore, for me, it was impossible to get my eye over the top of the stock and inline with the sights on the rifle. So, I do not see this idea as a realistic possibility.

4. As I have said before, standing straight up (no awkward leaning is needed) and aiming the rifle at the Z133 target works. But the issues with the standing idea are that it is significantly less stable than a seated and supported position. Also, it takes time to reposition to a seated position from a standing position. And the space available between the stacks of boxes is very limited which makes the process of repositioning even slower and more awkward. Plus the descriptions from witnesses who said they saw him just seconds before the shots all indicate he was seated (even if one of them did assume otherwise). When sitting in the actual model it becomes obvious how comfortable the seated (on the seat box) position shots (during the time after the limo emerges from behind the tree) are. And that the design of the nest was apparently made for those shots. If you do not believe me on this point, please, please, please, make one for yourself and I believe you will then agree.

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Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #226 on: January 20, 2025, 01:05:34 PM »


Online Royell Storing

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Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #227 on: January 20, 2025, 01:43:57 PM »
Yes, the elapsed time has changed from Tink Thompson's 6.8 seconds (or was it 6?) to Roselle's and Scearce's scientifically established 10.2 seconds. Get over it.

Yes, the limo's position at Oswald's first, missing everything shot at "Z-124" is different from everyone else's hypothesized position. Get over it.

Yes, the physical posture of Oswald changed from his standing and awkwardly leaning forward for his first shot to his kneeling and supporting his left arm on the top box during his second and third shots. Get over it.

Yes, the scenario in which Oswald fired three shots over 10.2 seconds in the echo chamber known as Dealey Plaza is plausible, and it's the only one that can rationally explain 1) How Oswald managed to miss everything with his first shot, 2) Why it sounded so differently from the other two shots to many witnesses, and 3) Why the three hulls found on the Sniper's Nest floor ended up in the locations in which they were photographed.

Get over it.

       When you begin with a guy inna basement using a mock automobile back seat and a pointer to demonstrate his SBT, it's obvious that everything that rests upon this faulty foundation is destined to crumble/change. The above lays this bare.       

Online Tom Mahon

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Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #228 on: January 20, 2025, 03:06:33 PM »
When you begin with a guy inna basement using a mock automobile back seat and a pointer to demonstrate his SBT, it's obvious that everything that rests upon this faulty foundation is destined to crumble/change. The above lays this bare.       

Given the fact that the Single Bullet Hypothesis is correct, how would you have demonstrated it if you were Specter?

Put a couple of guys in an identical (LOL) car and have a sniper in the 6th floor window shoot at them with Oswald's short-rifle?

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Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #228 on: January 20, 2025, 03:06:33 PM »


Online Tom Mahon

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Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #229 on: January 20, 2025, 03:14:06 PM »
4. Standing straight up (no awkward leaning is needed) and aiming the rifle at the Z133 target works. But the issues with the standing idea are that it is significantly less stable than a seated and supported position.

Thank you for proving my point that that's how Oswald managed to miss everything with his first shot -- which was even harder than you experienced in your reenactment because it was half-a-second earlier at "Z-124," and therefore at an even steeper downward angle.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2025, 03:16:40 PM by Tom Mahon »

Offline Brian Roselle

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Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #230 on: January 20, 2025, 03:41:06 PM »
Recent discussions regarding the sniper (possibly awkwardly) standing versus sitting or kneeling for an early shot taken about 9 seconds before Z133 (Z124H) prompted me to use my 3D model to test a sitting positon similar to my Z223 model. I found that a slight rotation at the waist of about 5 degrees along with head,  neck and arm adjustments allows a smooth transisiton through Z124H to Z223 and Z313 positions. Attached are four views from Z124H - Z223 including the models point of view from his left eye.



I am a fan of modeling and simulation so really like what you, Charles, and Tom are trying to do to further understand the shooting dynamics.

I have not done anything along the line of the rifle handling so can’t help any, but I did find a Carcano M91/38 (without scope) at an estate auction. Perhaps some day I can experiment with representative handling positions and shooting logistics at a low nook window here at home.

On thing I had thought about, and maybe you guys can comment on, is try to envision what Oswald might be doing leading right up to when the shooting started.

Putting myself in his place I envisioned that, although he knew the motorcade route would come by the depository, he may not have known what the motorcade arrangement was. In that I mean at the time the limo turned onto Houston, he might not have known for sure, exactly what the limo looked like, what vehicle it was to be in line i.e. where positioned in the precession, or where JFK would be seated in that vehicle.

Perhaps it took him a short while, maybe halfway down Houston, to discern all this and locate exactly where his target was, and how JFK was positioned in whatever seat. I have wondered if a time delay for this could contribute to not shooting earlier on Houston which is what many people often ask about.

Now if Oswald was seated on a box at this time, it seems like he would have to lean forward quite a bit to look around the east vertical window casing to examine the motorcade coming down Houston. Alternately, if he stood up from that seated position his body might naturally tend to lean forward a bit giving him a better view of the motorcade coming down Houston in order to make his determinations. I guess either would work, but it seems examining the motorcade would be easier if he was initially standing.

If so, the question then for the first shot is when would he have made a decision to stay mostly standing at that early point, crouch down, or be reseated? I would think that about the time the limo started to turn on Elm, JFK was quite close and the adrenalin would really be kicking in and that might be when he made a decision on an early first shot and how he would proceed, mostly standing, crouching down some in transition to sitting, or sitting.

Perhaps the work you guys are doing will further help determine this.

Also in the Hughes film where motion was seen in the sniper's window, do you guys recall if the motion observed was left/right, up/down, or just some generic motion, and if Oswald was standing at that point given widow sizes would his head have been positioned in the upper window pane as seen from street level?
Thanks for the effort you guys are putting forth here.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2025, 03:45:21 PM by Brian Roselle »

Online Royell Storing

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Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #231 on: January 20, 2025, 03:58:56 PM »
Given the fact that the Single Bullet Hypothesis is correct, how would you have demonstrated it if you were Specter?

Put a couple of guys in an identical (LOL) car and have a sniper in the 6th floor window shoot at them with Oswald's short-rifle?

    So you wanna argue with Forensic SCIENCE?  SCIENCE vs a Theory slapped together by an aspiring Lawyer inna basement? This is where you are.

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Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #231 on: January 20, 2025, 03:58:56 PM »