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Author Topic: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.  (Read 15207 times)

Online Royell Storing

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Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #288 on: January 22, 2025, 09:02:02 PM »
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I am using his comments I heard on a TV special, Death in Dealey Plaza, where he said he felt the third shot, and actually felt the compression on his face, knew then it was not any cherry bomb, and decided he needed to run forward as the car was not going fast enough. So he then got out of the car and began running and turned on his camera. The quote was related to a time before he had gotten out of the car and was just at, and shortly after, the third shot.

On the Michael Russ motorcade diagram, he was still on Houston but getting close to turning on Elm at z313. That is the basis of my comments.

   When I think about where Wiegman might have physically been when feeling that "compression", I also consider his actual filming. His Camera Car #1 is in the process of making the turn onto Elm while he films the rear of the car with Kilduf inside it. I do not see his filming jiggle due to "compression" from a shot or anything like that as his camera car is in the process of making that turn.  Also, on the Darnell Film, we see Wiegman's Camera Car #1 stopped at about the point where a car straightens out when turning onto Elm St. The car is stopped a little bit further down Elm St than Officer Baker's motorcycle standing there alongside the Elm Curb. I think Wiegman felt that "compression" at some point as he was jumping out of the car near Baker's motorcycle, or as he began running down Elm St. During this time span. I don't know of anyone reporting a shot being fired down Houston St.   
« Last Edit: January 22, 2025, 09:03:09 PM by Royell Storing »

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Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #288 on: January 22, 2025, 09:02:02 PM »


Online James Hackerott

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Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #289 on: January 22, 2025, 09:04:00 PM »
Your view of the President's car emerging from under the oak tree relative to the lamp post is a bit off when compared to the Secret Service film taken on December 2, 1963:


The frame I used for comparison is from the film is taken just before the car position in this photo found at CE875 at 17H884.
Hi Andrew,
It looks like you chose a frame from the SS recreation film close to Z210. My composite animation ran to Z223, and left the limousine mostly hidden by my 3D oak tree model. I grabbed a reference frame from the SS film that I think is close or the same as your image. I made 3D renderings using the same frame size 486x358 pixels and 28.5 degrees field of view to fit with the reference frame. To get the Z210 limo to match the reference frame I reduced the tree radius from 20 to 18..5 feet. This give a better match to the reference frame. The animation shows the reference frame, Z210 without tree, Z225 without tree, z210 with tree and Z225 with tree. I updated my model with this change. Thanks for pointing that out. Now, did I answer your concerns?

 


Online Andrew Mason

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Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #290 on: January 22, 2025, 09:58:35 PM »

Due to the supersonic speed of the bullet, the sharp crack of the shockwave would be heard before the sound of the muzzle blast. Think of the ka part of a “ka-pow” type of loud sound that is often associated with hight powered rifles. As far as feeling it on the face goes, I think some people might be able to feel the sound wave. I once felt the sound of a space shuttle launch (~7-miles away from me) in my chest.
The shock wave is due to the rapid compression of air by the bullet and spreads out from the nose of the bullet in a cone shape at the speed of sound as the bullet passes through the air.  The angle of the cone is called the Mach angle where the sine of the Mach angle is equal to the speed of sound divided by the bullet speed (or 1/mach no.):


In the case of the bullet fired by the M/C rifle (muzzle speed Mach 2 around 2200 feet/sec), the Mach Angle would be 30 degrees (sin(30)=1/M=1/2).  The energy in the wave is continuous as it is caused by the bullet plowing through air whereas the muzzle blast is a one-time release of energy caused by the compressed gas from the ignited gunpowder exploding out of the muzzle.

So, it appears to me that Wiegman and Kilduff and the Cabells were not within the cone and could not have heard the crack of the shock wave.  Only people west of the SN and relatively close to the bullet path could have heard it.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2025, 10:22:31 PM by Andrew Mason »

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Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #290 on: January 22, 2025, 09:58:35 PM »


Offline Jack Trojan

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Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #291 on: January 22, 2025, 11:23:01 PM »
Many years ago I created a 3D stabilized version of the Z-film (need Red/Blue glasses for 3D effect) and I used the stabilized data to study the camera shake.


If Zapruder responded to any loud noises during shooting the Z film, then telltale jiggles would show up as involuntary camera shake. If you take any stock in involuntary "jiggling" in response to loud sounds (which is definitely a thing), this chart might interest you.

http://www.kohlbstudio.com/Images/Zshake_yd-d.png

A reflexive response to a loud noise is an up and down motion (y axis). I filtered out the X and focused on the Y because this jiggle motion is significant versus "panning", which is not associated with a gunshot jiggle. All the other jiggle analyses seemed to ignore this aspect.

Look at the "signature" reflexive response to z313. That is your control.

There appear to be a few possible candidate spikes that might have been the 1st shot. However, there were a lot of frames spliced out of the beginning of the Z-film and Zapruder can't recall ever taking his finger off the trigger. The 1st shot might be in that footage, which got spliced out. BTW, where is the original film? Zapruder only got a copy back.

Note that there's a telltale jiggle that peaks at z230, which suggests that Zapruder was responding to a sound at z225. The sound appeared to reach Zapruder 1/6th of a second after the bullet struck JFK at z222, behind the Stemmons sign.

Note the splices at z158 & z213.

Note the massive edit at z333 just when we would expect to see a hole in the back of JFK's head.


Online Tom Mahon

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Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #292 on: January 22, 2025, 11:51:04 PM »
Many years ago I created a 3D stabilized version of the Z-film (need Red/Blue glasses for 3D effect) and I used the stabilized data to study the camera shake.


If Zapruder responded to any loud noises during shooting the Z film, then telltale jiggles would show up as involuntary camera shake. If you take any stock in involuntary "jiggling" in response to loud sounds (which is definitely a thing), this chart might interest you.

http://www.kohlbstudio.com/Images/Zshake_yd-d.png

A reflexive response to a loud noise is an up and down motion (y axis). I filtered out the X and focused on the Y because this jiggle motion is significant versus "panning", which is not associated with a gunshot jiggle. All the other jiggle analyses seemed to ignore this aspect.

Look at the "signature" reflexive response to z313. That is your control.

There appear to be a few possible candidate spikes that might have been the 1st shot. However, there were a lot of frames spliced out of the beginning of the Z-film and Zapruder can't recall ever taking his finger off the trigger. The 1st shot might be in that footage, which got spliced out. BTW, where is the original film? Zapruder only got a copy back.

Note that there's a telltale jiggle that peaks at z230, which suggests that Zapruder was responding to a sound at z225. The sound appeared to reach Zapruder 1/6th of a second after the bullet struck JFK at z222, behind the Stemmons sign.

Note the splices at z158 & z213.

Note the massive edit at z333 just when we would expect to see a hole in the back of JFK's head.

Holy Toledo!!!

(LOL)

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Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #292 on: January 22, 2025, 11:51:04 PM »


Online Charles Collins

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Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #293 on: January 22, 2025, 11:57:52 PM »
That’s a great job on the window set up. I really do like the idea of modeling to get a sense of the actual dynamics. It seems to have given you the idea of bumping boxes with the gun as a first shot control issue which I don’t think would come to mind to me by just looking at photographs of the snipers nest.

I am not predisposed to any particular shooting position for the first shot, but am pretty confident in the trigger time.

Your sitting position and bumping the box could be what happened to cause a miss. It could also be a part of a multivariable dynamic with a flow of adrenalin and rushing to get in a very tempting close first shot after picking up on the target just below, with the angular velocity of the target at that time something beyond what he ever trained on. It might not have been as simple as one specific cause.

One thing that I still wonder about is in that configuration, sitting the whole time, it appears to me Oswald, because of the wall right there by him would lose sight of his target perhaps as early as half way down Houston and not be able to pick up on it again until the limo was between say, him and the line-of-sight Hughes had to him.  This could be, but it seems that would have caused a really rushed first shot if picking up on the target again was so late. When standing or seating in your model, would the view facilitate seeing the limo the whole time, which if standing could still could facilitate a semi standing, crouching, or quick returning to seating position just before firing.

I guess my main concern, which is not a show stopper, is when in the seated position would one readily have a view extending to the east side of Houston Street the whole way from Main to Elm? I’m guessing the Secret Service re-enactment filming position was not controlled to replicate sniper’s nest window opening, box orientations, etc, but it did keep the limo in view the whole time after entering the Plaza.


It seems to have given you the idea of bumping boxes with the gun as a first shot control issue which I don’t think would come to mind to me by just looking at photographs of the snipers nest.

Yes, the idea came to me when I only had a 3D computer model. At that point in time I was guessing that he might have been tracking the limo when the muzzle end of his rifle hit the box. Once I was able to actually be in this model with a rifle in hand, it appeared to me that he wouldn't be likely to be tracking the limo at that location (at least not from a sitting position).


Your sitting position and bumping the box could be what happened to cause a miss. It could also be a part of a multivariable dynamic with a flow of adrenalin and rushing to get in a very tempting close first shot after picking up on the target just below, with the angular velocity of the target at that time something beyond what he ever trained on. It might not have been as simple as one specific cause.

I agree it might not be a simple matter. Also, we can only guess (based on what we do believe we know) at these types of things.



One thing that I still wonder about is in that configuration, sitting the whole time, it appears to me Oswald, because of the wall right there by him would lose sight of his target perhaps as early as half way down Houston and not be able to pick up on it again until the limo was between say, him and the line-of-sight Hughes had to him.  This could be, but it seems that would have caused a really rushed first shot if picking up on the target again was so late. When standing or seating in your model, would the view facilitate seeing the limo the whole time, which if standing could still could facilitate a semi standing, crouching, or quick returning to seating position just before firing.

Preliminarily, I believe that in a sitting position (leaning forward) he could see the limo until it was just below him. Then it would disappear behind the window sill box for just an instant. Although I would need to find the proper angles and layout the roadways before I could say that with any certainty. From a standing position, he could see things a bit easier; however, it appears to me that the window sill box would still be a potential interference object at about the same time we believe an early shot happened. I have just now verified that, even from a normal and comfortable standing position with a rifle that is approximately the same length as the Carcano, that the last inch or two of the barrel does reach and hit the corner of the window sill box.


I guess my main concern, which is not a show stopper, is when in the seated position would one readily have a view extending to the east side of Houston Street the whole way from Main to Elm? I’m guessing the Secret Service re-enactment filming position was not controlled to replicate sniper’s nest window opening, box orientations, etc, but it did keep the limo in view the whole time after entering the Plaza.


Again, I would have to layout the roadways based on the angles involved to be sure. I think the limo was near the center of Houston Street based on my memory. I am not ruling out a standing position. I think it is a possibility. However, so far my thinking has been leaning towards a sitting position due to the following:

The ergonomics of the sniper's nest seem to me to be definitely designed for shots (while sitting) down Elm Street after emerging from behind the tree.

I believe he would want to try to stay concealed as much as possible. The boxes around the sitting position in the sniper's nest affords good concealment from people both inside and outside the TSBD. Standing up removes most of that concealment.

I believe that the sitting position and the support for the arm from the boxes provide the most stable position feasible.

Changing positions takes up valuable time.

I envision him staying concealed until all of the SS agents have gotten so close to the building that they would have to be looking almost straight up to see him. Then quickly raising the rifle and preparing to shoot from behind them. A well-designed ambush.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2025, 12:02:07 AM by Charles Collins »

Online Tom Mahon

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Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #294 on: January 23, 2025, 12:02:14 AM »
I envision him staying concealed until all of the SS agents have gotten so close to the building that they would have to be looking almost straight up to see him. Then quickly raising the rifle and preparing to shoot from behind them. A well-designed ambush.

Devil's Advocate: There were Secret Service agents in LBJ's car.

Online Charles Collins

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Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #295 on: January 23, 2025, 12:08:02 AM »
Devil's Advocate: There were Secret Service agents in LBJ's car.

And SS agents were behind LBJ's car in the follow-up car. Yes, they too would be very close to the building. Specifically by the time the limo emerges from behind the tree (where I believe he would have planned to begin shooting).

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Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #295 on: January 23, 2025, 12:08:02 AM »