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Author Topic: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.  (Read 22580 times)

Online Charles Collins

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Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #344 on: January 29, 2025, 09:20:54 PM »
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I was responding to your statement that I was wrong when I said "The first cannot be reconciled with Altgens photo at z255.".  The "first" refers to Myers' web page which has W001 3.66 seconds before the head shot which puts W015 at z256-257.  I didn't say his "second" could not be reconciled with Altgens.  I just said it required the Cabell car to go from not being visible in Altgens to having completed the turn onto Elm in .76 seconds.
It is a bit difficult to stop Tyler's animation at the right spot.  He uses the 255.1 frame in the cover to his manual. I wasn't sure what frame you were using. There is not much difference, I agree. Besides, there is also some uncertainty in exactly when Altgens took his #6 photo - it could be z254-z256 based on Jackie's hand on JFK's right sleeve and the car-right flag flutter. I would suggest that z254-z255 is probably more accurate.
Myers' work appears to be, from an animation point of view, well done.  But the problems arise because it is not possible to check his work, being based on a model that he keeps secret and will not share.  He presents it as highly accurate but doesn't show any error range.  This is not the way a scientific analysis should be presented.  I would be interested to know how his model compares to the Knott Laboratory model created by using actual measurement data obtained by a laser scan of Dealey Plaza.


He presents it as highly accurate but doesn't show any error range.

On page 28 of the pdf Myers qualifies his error range for this project:

In synchronizing the amateur films for this project, an error ratio of plus-or-minus (+/-) one
frame (approximately one tenth of a second) was deemed acceptable, and therefore considered
synchronous.


Also, he does qualify the following on page 30 of the PDF:

Each of the nine amateur films used in this analysis was prepared from original sources.103

103. With the exception of the F.M. “Mark” Bell, and John Martin, Jr., films, which used the best available sources.

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Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #344 on: January 29, 2025, 09:20:54 PM »


Online Andrew Mason

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Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #345 on: January 31, 2025, 06:35:22 PM »

He presents it as highly accurate but doesn't show any error range.

On page 28 of the pdf Myers qualifies his error range for this project:

In synchronizing the amateur films for this project, an error ratio of plus-or-minus (+/-) one
frame (approximately one tenth of a second) was deemed acceptable, and therefore considered
synchronous.


Also, he does qualify the following on page 30 of the PDF:

Each of the nine amateur films used in this analysis was prepared from original sources.103

103. With the exception of the F.M. “Mark” Bell, and John Martin, Jr., films, which used the best available sources.
His "error ratio" is the lowest possible amount of error. He couldn't very well say to within less than a frame.   The cameras were not all operating at the same speed or making exposures at the same time. 

That is not a margin of error with respect to the measurements he uses to reach his conclusions: ie. positions of people and vehicles, speeds of vehicles, angles of vehicles and rates of change of angles, limitations of film resolution, uncertainties of film speed etc. 

In order to determine a margin of error you need to follow accepted rules. 

Example: You make a measurement 10 different times.  You then use an appropriate statistical method for determining the most likely value and the error range. Assuming the samples formed a normal distribution about a mean value one would use the average of those 10 readings and work out the standard deviation (the square root of the sum of the squares of the difference between each value and the mean).  The margin of error would be two standard deviations, which is the range within which 95% of the values occur.  That would then be the error range for that measurement. 

Of course, that assumes that you are not basing the measurements on assumptions that introduce further uncertainty. If you are making the measurements based on values that themselves have a margin of error, then you need to factor those error margins into your work.  And you need to show how you calculated these things by providing the data so that the reader can check your work.

Online Charles Collins

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Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #346 on: February 01, 2025, 02:23:24 AM »
His "error ratio" is the lowest possible amount of error. He couldn't very well say to within less than a frame.   The cameras were not all operating at the same speed or making exposures at the same time. 

That is not a margin of error with respect to the measurements he uses to reach his conclusions: ie. positions of people and vehicles, speeds of vehicles, angles of vehicles and rates of change of angles, limitations of film resolution, uncertainties of film speed etc. 

In order to determine a margin of error you need to follow accepted rules. 

Example: You make a measurement 10 different times.  You then use an appropriate statistical method for determining the most likely value and the error range. Assuming the samples formed a normal distribution about a mean value one would use the average of those 10 readings and work out the standard deviation (the square root of the sum of the squares of the difference between each value and the mean).  The margin of error would be two standard deviations, which is the range within which 95% of the values occur.  That would then be the error range for that measurement. 

Of course, that assumes that you are not basing the measurements on assumptions that introduce further uncertainty. If you are making the measurements based on values that themselves have a margin of error, then you need to factor those error margins into your work.  And you need to show how you calculated these things by providing the data so that the reader can check your work.


I have a 10-shot string.  I have measured the velocity for each shot with a chronograph.  The velocities (fps) are: 834, 832, 828, 828, 832, 829, 833, 827, 829, 829. The standard deviation is indicated to be 2.3 by the chronograph software program. The average is indicated to be 830. It is actually 830.1 if done manually. The spread is indicated to be 7.

Given the above please show us how to calculate the margin for error. And be sure to show the calculations so we can check your work. Thanks…

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Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #346 on: February 01, 2025, 02:23:24 AM »


Online Andrew Mason

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Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #347 on: February 03, 2025, 05:38:24 PM »

I have a 10-shot string.  I have measured the velocity for each shot with a chronograph.  The velocities (fps) are: 834, 832, 828, 828, 832, 829, 833, 827, 829, 829. The standard deviation is indicated to be 2.3 by the chronograph software program. The average is indicated to be 830. It is actually 830.1 if done manually. The spread is indicated to be 7.

Given the above please show us how to calculate the margin for error. And be sure to show the calculations so we can check your work. Thanks…
The variance (mean square of the difference of values from the mean) is 5.29 so the standard deviation is 2.3 (square root of the variance).

Online Charles Collins

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Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #348 on: February 03, 2025, 11:08:47 PM »
The variance (mean square of the difference of values from the mean) is 5.29 so the standard deviation is 2.3 (square root of the variance).


I don’t think that standard deviation is the same as margin for error. I am also struggling to understand how any of this applies to the accuracy of synchronizing the various films. If I remember correctly, you stated that Mark Tyler’s work is supposed to be with a margin of error of seven frames. Did Mark Tyler provide all the data and calculations demonstration that you are demanding of Dale Myers’ work?

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Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #348 on: February 03, 2025, 11:08:47 PM »


Online Andrew Mason

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Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #349 on: February 05, 2025, 07:51:54 PM »

I don’t think that standard deviation is the same as margin for error. I am also struggling to understand how any of this applies to the accuracy of synchronizing the various films. If I remember correctly, you stated that Mark Tyler’s work is supposed to be with a margin of error of seven frames. Did Mark Tyler provide all the data and calculations demonstration that you are demanding of Dale Myers’ work?
The margin of error comes in when Myers purports to make ridiculously accurate measurements such as this (on page 171 of his PDF version of "Epipolar Geometric Analysis of Amateur Films Related to Acoustics Evidence in the John F. Kennedy Assassination"):

  • "The true position of Camera Car 1 was determined by using computer models to align a model
    of the 17.5 foot long 1964 Chevrolet Impala with Hughes’ field-of-view. The result shows the
    right rear bumper of Camera Car 1 is 2.95 feet north of, and 0.66 feet west of the line-of-sight
    drawn between the Hughes’ camera and the northwest corner of the Records Building; not
    on the line of sight as Thomas reported."

First of all, there is some margin of error in the placement of Hughes' camera in the middle of the intersection (*1) and the exact line of sight to the corner of the building. Then there is the error in the model of Dealey Plaza and the car model that he used.  Then there is the inaccuracy in plotting an exact position of everything in the grainy Hughes film. There has to be some uncertainty in "2.95 feet north and .66 feet east".  Myers admits of none.

Myers then concludes (p. 171):
  • "When correctly scaled computer models of Camera Car 1 are aligned to Hughes frame H633
    and Zapruder frame Z220, the distance between those two exposures was determined to be
    59.8 feet; not 73 feet as reported by Thomas."

Keep in mind that he is trying to compare the difference in position of Camera Car #1 around this Hughes frame:


to its position in Z220:


and this is his conclusion:
"Considering that the known speed prior to Hughes frame H633 was 11.83 ft/sec (8.1 mph) and
the known speed at Zapruder frame Z220 was 13.89 feet/sec (9.5 mph), it was determined that
Camera Car 1 was traveling at an average speed of 12.86 feet/sec (8.8 mph) and therefore
traversed the 59.8 foot distance between Hughes frame H633 and Zapruder frame Z220 in
4.65 seconds; not the 6.2 to 8.3 second guesstimate ventured by Thomas".

To suggest that it is 4.65 seconds and could not be 4.5 or 5.0 seconds he needs to give us a reasonable estimate of the total possible error in all the measurements he uses to reach that conclusion.  He admits of none.

*1 Here is what Myers wrote in footnote 198 page 171:
  • 198. Thomas reported that Robert Hughes’ precise location at the time that he filmed the motorcade is “not known” and that his best
    estimate based on examining his film and a photograph taken by Charles Bronson is that Hughes was standing 8 feet south of the center
    line of Main Street and 14 feet west of the center line of Houston Street. Thomas’s positioning of the Hughes camera is essentially correct.
    Using computers to align the Hughes’ camera field of view with computer models of Dealey Plaza, I pinpointed Hughes’ location as 8.83
    feet south of the center line of Main Street and 15.5 feet west of the center line of Houston Street.

Online Charles Collins

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Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #350 on: February 06, 2025, 12:29:18 PM »
The margin of error comes in when Myers purports to make ridiculously accurate measurements such as this (on page 171 of his PDF version of "Epipolar Geometric Analysis of Amateur Films Related to Acoustics Evidence in the John F. Kennedy Assassination"):

  • "The true position of Camera Car 1 was determined by using computer models to align a model
    of the 17.5 foot long 1964 Chevrolet Impala with Hughes’ field-of-view. The result shows the
    right rear bumper of Camera Car 1 is 2.95 feet north of, and 0.66 feet west of the line-of-sight
    drawn between the Hughes’ camera and the northwest corner of the Records Building; not
    on the line of sight as Thomas reported."

First of all, there is some margin of error in the placement of Hughes' camera in the middle of the intersection (*1) and the exact line of sight to the corner of the building. Then there is the error in the model of Dealey Plaza and the car model that he used.  Then there is the inaccuracy in plotting an exact position of everything in the grainy Hughes film. There has to be some uncertainty in "2.95 feet north and .66 feet east".  Myers admits of none.

Myers then concludes (p. 171):
  • "When correctly scaled computer models of Camera Car 1 are aligned to Hughes frame H633
    and Zapruder frame Z220, the distance between those two exposures was determined to be
    59.8 feet; not 73 feet as reported by Thomas."

Keep in mind that he is trying to compare the difference in position of Camera Car #1 around this Hughes frame:


to its position in Z220:


and this is his conclusion:
"Considering that the known speed prior to Hughes frame H633 was 11.83 ft/sec (8.1 mph) and
the known speed at Zapruder frame Z220 was 13.89 feet/sec (9.5 mph), it was determined that
Camera Car 1 was traveling at an average speed of 12.86 feet/sec (8.8 mph) and therefore
traversed the 59.8 foot distance between Hughes frame H633 and Zapruder frame Z220 in
4.65 seconds; not the 6.2 to 8.3 second guesstimate ventured by Thomas".

To suggest that it is 4.65 seconds and could not be 4.5 or 5.0 seconds he needs to give us a reasonable estimate of the total possible error in all the measurements he uses to reach that conclusion.  He admits of none.

*1 Here is what Myers wrote in footnote 198 page 171:
  • 198. Thomas reported that Robert Hughes’ precise location at the time that he filmed the motorcade is “not known” and that his best
    estimate based on examining his film and a photograph taken by Charles Bronson is that Hughes was standing 8 feet south of the center
    line of Main Street and 14 feet west of the center line of Houston Street. Thomas’s positioning of the Hughes camera is essentially correct.
    Using computers to align the Hughes’ camera field of view with computer models of Dealey Plaza, I pinpointed Hughes’ location as 8.83
    feet south of the center line of Main Street and 15.5 feet west of the center line of Houston Street.


Dale Myers gives us a lot of information that is generated by a computer and based on his model of Dealey Plaza. As we learned back in 1968 from the movie “2001: A Space Odyssey” computers don’t make errors….  ;)

Dale Myers tells us some information about how he made his computer model of Dealey Plaza. Professional surveys, professional building construction plans, lots of personal measurements & photos, lots of trips to Dealey Plaza, lots of photos from 1963, several years of work, etc. I have a cheap laser distance meter. It has a specified range of 60-meters and a specified accuracy of +/- 1.5-millimeters. Given the time frame that Dale Myers worked on the model, and the fact that laser distance meters became available about 1993, I would assume that he probably utilized one for many of his measurements.

Dale Myers tells us that his purpose for this film synchronization project is to refute the HSCA’s acoustical study’s conclusions. He tells us that an error margin of +/- one frame is his goal and is considered (for this project) to be in sync. He verifies most of his findings with alternates. For example, here is a portion of his table of contents:

APPENDIX I: FIVE ADDITIONAL REFERENCE POINTS COMMON TO THE
ZAPRUDER AND HUGHES FILMS CONFIRM THE VALIDITY OF SYNCHRONIZING
HUGHES FRAME H648 TO ZAPRUDER FRAME Z150

(SEC-1) The trajectory and speed of the presidential limousine as depicted in the Tina
Towner film is consistent with Hughes frame H648 synchronizing to Zapruder frame

(SEC-2) The trajectory and speed of the Camera Car 1 (the tenth car in the motorcade) as
depicted in the Robert Hughes film is consistent with Hughes frame H648 synchronizing
to Zapruder frame Z150.

(SEC-3) The trajectory and speed of the Camera Car 2 (the eleventh car in the
motorcade) as depicted in the Robert Hughes film is consistent with Hughes frame
H648 synchronizing to Zapruder frame Z150.

(SEC-4) The trajectory and speed of the Dallas police officer Marion L. Baker’s
motorcycle as depicted in the Robert Hughes and Abraham Zapruder films is
consistent with Hughes frame H648 synchronizing to Zapruder frame Z150.
Secrets of a Homicide: The JFK Assassination - Epipolar Geometric Analysis of Amateur Films Related to
Acoustics Evidence in the John F. Kennedy Assassination by Dale K. Myers / © 2007 Dale K. Myers / REPORT
5

(SEC-5) The trajectory and speed of eyewitness Rosemary Willis as depicted in the
Elsie Dorman, Mark Bell, John Martin, and Abraham Zapruder films is consistent with
Hughes frame H648 synchronizing to Zapruder frame Z150.


Go to each section to read all the details.

Personally it appears to me that Dale Myers has done an outstanding job. You entered this discussion with the notion that Dale Myers had the beginning of the Wiegman film out of sync with the others. I think we have seen that the issue is a matter of Dale Myers using the original film versus a more commonly available edited copy. Not an error by Dale Myers, but actually a more accurate depiction of what actually happened (due to Dale Myers’ thoroughness). That bodes well for my confidence level in his works. 

You are entitled to your own opinions of course. But your argument reminds me of Iacoletti’s refusal to believe that there has ever been any evidence of anything…. 


Online John Iacoletti

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Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #351 on: February 06, 2025, 09:13:19 PM »
You are entitled to your own opinions of course. But your argument reminds me of Iacoletti’s refusal to believe that there has ever been any evidence of anything….

Nice strawman, Charles.  Next?

Myers further displays his ridiculous grasp of significant digits by claiming that Tippit was shot at precisely 1:14:30 pm.  I'm surprised he didn't say how many milliseconds.

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Re: Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.
« Reply #351 on: February 06, 2025, 09:13:19 PM »