Oswald took 10.2 seconds to fire all three shots.

[Charles Collins]

Yet the same type of bullet instantly fragmented when it contacted JFK's skull?

The bullet that shattered Connally's wrist also fragmented.
CE399 was introduced into the chain of evidence after it had passed from Chief Rowley to SA Elmer Todd.

Yes, that would be expected and consistent with a high speed bullet hitting an object as hard as the skull head-on.



The bullet that shattered Connally's wrist also fragmented.

If that were the case, then there should have been damage to the limo in the area just past JBC’s wrist (aka: the back of the front seat). There was no damage to the limo in that area found.

[Andrew Mason]

The bullet that shattered Connally's wrist also fragmented.

If that were the case, then there should have been damage to the limo in the area just past JBC’s wrist (aka: the back of the front seat). There was no damage to the limo in that area found.

Not necessarily. The direction of the fragments would depend on the angle at which the bullet struck the radius.

If it struck the radius while the pronated wrist was pressed against the chest, the only direction would be up and forward. The windshield was struck by a fragment. The top of the windshield was struck by a fragment. And James Tague was struck. And all the evidence is that this occurred on the second shot.

[Andrew Mason]

It’s interesting to see in those photos just how thick the copper jacket is on those bullets. Those photos bring out that aspect very well. Thanks!

The copper thickness is a bit misleading.

I just measured one of mine  with a ruler (sorry about the scratches) and it looks like the thickness of jacket at the base is about 1 mm:


But that is because there is a lip of copper around the edge of the lead at the base.

The exact specifications from Western Cartridge company would be helpful but someone on the old newsgroup made the effort to disassemble and measure everything.  The thickness of the jacket varied with the thickest copper at the tip (.937 mm).  The thickness at the base was .627 mm so the actual thickness is a bit less than 2/3 that apparent thickness. 

WCC jacket thickness- (measured with a point micrometer)
Base thickness- .627mm (or .0247")
Mid-body thickness- .607mm (or .0239")
Upper body thickness- .607mm (or .0239")
Jacket tip- .937mm (or .0369")

[Charles Collins]

The copper thickness is a bit misleading.

I just measured one of mine  with a ruler (sorry about the scratches) and it looks like the thickness of jacket at the base is about 1 mm:


But that is because there is a lip of copper around the edge of the lead at the base.

The exact specifications from Western Cartridge company would be helpful but someone on the old newsgroup made the effort to disassemble and measure everything.  The thickness of the jacket varied with the thickest copper at the tip (.937 mm).  The thickness at the base was .627 mm so the actual thickness is a bit less than 2/3 that apparent thickness. 

WCC jacket thickness- (measured with a point micrometer)
Base thickness- .627mm (or .0247")
Mid-body thickness- .607mm (or .0239")
Upper body thickness- .607mm (or .0239")
Jacket tip- .937mm (or .0369")

Thanks that is interesting and helpful!

Do you have the respective weights of the jacket and the core handy?

[Dan O'meara]

According to the autopsy doctors, the bullet that struck JFK's head hit near its hardest part -- the External Occipital Protuberance.

This is what happens when people don't think things through.
According to you the bullet that hit JFK's head because it "hit near it's hardest part", the EOP ("near" it? Doesn't that mean it missed that part of the skull - d'uhhh)
The radial bone is far thicker and more dense than "near" the EOP so, BY YOUR OWN LOGIC, the bullet must fragment when it strikes JBC's radial bone.
As a Nutter you must now indulge in some mental gymnastics to make your "logic" work.
Good luck with that.

Talking of mental gymnastics...John posted this:

Hi Tom, as the WC showed, a full speed bullet striking a human wrist would literally smash the wrist bone therefore for CE399 to only fracture Connally's wrist it must have been travelling slower!



There are two images of wrist x-rays.
One shows where a bullet has clearly passed through the radial bone. It has smashed a hole through the bone as we might expect.
The other image shows an x-ray of JBC's wrist. Although the bone is clearly shattered there is absolutely zero evidence that a bullet has passed through the bone.
The explanation for this discrepancy is that the bullet that passed through JBC's wrist must have been travelling more slowly than the one that blasted a hole in the radial bone!!
 
How does a slower moving bullet leave no evidence that it has passed through the bone?
The bone still has to be blasted out of the way the bullet to get through.
Surely the x-ray of JBC's wrist is proof that a bullet didn't pass through it. Isn't that the obvious explanation?
And hasn't it crossed anyone's mind that the exit "slit" on JBC's wrist is far smaller than the entrance wound on the dorsal side of his wrist.
Isn't that suggesting a fragmented bullet to anyone?

The bullet that struck JBC's wrist (CE-399) did not fragment -- probably because, having passed through JFK and JBC, it had slowed down quite a bit and because it was twirling when it struck said bone.

D'oh

"...twirling when it struck said bone"

 
Twirling?
If that was the case it would have blown JBC's hand off at the wrist.
Instead, it left hardly any evidence that a bullet had passed through.
The injuries to Connally and the damage to his clothes demonstrate that there was no such twirling or tumbling.
This idea about a tumbling bullet HAD TO BE INTRODUCED to keep up the lie that CE399 was the bullet. Small fragments of metal were left in the wrist when the bullet fragmented. CE399 could not have left any kind of fragment if it created the wound nose-first as there was no material lost from the nose of the bullet. The only area any such fragments could've come from is the base of the bullet, therefore the idea that it turned around as it traveled had to be introduced.
The 'tumbling' theory is an invention, it is not supported by the evidence.

The bullet struck JBC's radial bone and fragmented. A small part of it passed through his wrist and the larger part lodged itself in his leg.
There is a little known story that when JBC was being moved from his stretcher onto the examination table in Parkland Hospital a bullet or large bullet fragment fell on the floor and was picked up by a nurse who was told by Henry Wade to give it to a police officer, which she did.

[Tom Graves]

Twirling?

If that was the case it would have blown JBC's hand off at the wrist.

IIRC, Dale Myers created a computer simulation that showed how CE-399 damaged JBC's wrist.

Why don't you watch it?

And speaking of "twirling," why don't go sit on something and . . . aww . . . never mind.

[Zeon Mason]

Well you WC believers still have to show some kind of experiment to replicate the CE 399 bullet cause the last one in 2003 where they fired a 6.5mm MC bullet thru 2 replica human torsos came out much more deformed than CE 399. And this even when they  left out a wrist bone and a thigh muscle that the bullet would have hit after exiting JC.

Now maybe it’s due to  their straight line trajectory from the TSBD shooting height into the JFK model NOT exiting from throat but instead  thru more material in the JFK chest cavity area that could possibly explain the more deformed bullet that was recovered.

So somebody needs to try another attempt or maybe several attempts with these same type torso models and include some material to account for wrist bone and thigh muscle.

Test the SBT again and test Andrew’s proposed 3 shot scenario also.

The only thing seems  conclusive is that  a 6.5 mm bullet fired at Z223 from the TSBD window to JFK and then to JC has almost  a straight trajectory line requiring very minimal zig zag if it exited the throat to hit JC. So at least the  old original CT sketch of a wildly zig zagging bullet  trajectory had been proved to be exaggerated by Dale Myers computer model and by the 2003 Beyond Conspiracy documentary experiment.

I’m not convinced about  the WC version of the SBT having a 1st preceding the Z224 shot because:
A. The patten dies not match the 1….2..3 sequence that 2/3 majority of ear witness remember.
B. Betzner nor Willis heard a shot prior to Z186.
C. a 1st shot missed the whole limo ( and bullet never found )  One possible  reason  imo  may be that the shooter accidentally squeezed  the trigger when he moved  from his seated position sitting on a box to place the rifle upon the 2 stacked boxes. The angle of the rifle at that moment could have been horizontal so the bullet sailed across the Dealey  plaza and is still buried somewhere.

I kind of like Andrew Masons alternative WC single shooter theory with  3 shots sequence of Z194- Z270 and Z313 because it’s more similar to the 1…..2..3 spacing pattern. But I’ve got problems with JCs leg position and how his hat was held in his right hand when he gets struck in Andrew’s scenario at Z270 and also where does that Z270 bullet go after it hits JCs wrist ?
And where is JCs right hand holding his hat when he is struck at Z270?

[John Mytton]

This is what happens when people don't think things through.
According to you the bullet that hit JFK's head because it "hit near it's hardest part", the EOP ("near" it? Doesn't that mean it missed that part of the skull - d'uhhh)
The radial bone is far thicker and more dense than "near" the EOP so, BY YOUR OWN LOGIC, the bullet must fragment when it strikes JBC's radial bone.
As a Nutter you must now indulge in some mental gymnastics to make your "logic" work.
Good luck with that.

Talking of mental gymnastics...John posted this:

Hi Tom, as the WC showed, a full speed bullet striking a human wrist would literally smash the wrist bone therefore for CE399 to only fracture Connally's wrist it must have been travelling slower!



There are two images of wrist x-rays.
One shows where a bullet has clearly passed through the radial bone. It has smashed a hole through the bone as we might expect.
The other image shows an x-ray of JBC's wrist. Although the bone is clearly shattered there is absolutely zero evidence that a bullet has passed through the bone.
The explanation for this discrepancy is that the bullet that passed through JBC's wrist must have been travelling more slowly than the one that blasted a hole in the radial bone!!
 
How does a slower moving bullet leave no evidence that it has passed through the bone?
The bone still has to be blasted out of the way the bullet to get through.
Surely the x-ray of JBC's wrist is proof that a bullet didn't pass through it. Isn't that the obvious explanation?
And hasn't it crossed anyone's mind that the exit "slit" on JBC's wrist is far smaller than the entrance wound on the dorsal side of his wrist.
Isn't that suggesting a fragmented bullet to anyone?

"...twirling when it struck said bone"

 
Twirling?
If that was the case it would have blown JBC's hand off at the wrist.
Instead, it left hardly any evidence that a bullet had passed through.
The injuries to Connally and the damage to his clothes demonstrate that there was no such twirling or tumbling.
This idea about a tumbling bullet HAD TO BE INTRODUCED to keep up the lie that CE399 was the bullet. Small fragments of metal were left in the wrist when the bullet fragmented. CE399 could not have left any kind of fragment if it created the wound nose-first as there was no material lost from the nose of the bullet. The only area any such fragments could've come from is the base of the bullet, therefore the idea that it turned around as it traveled had to be introduced.
The 'tumbling' theory is an invention, it is not supported by the evidence.

The bullet struck JBC's radial bone and fragmented. A small part of it passed through his wrist and the larger part lodged itself in his leg.
There is a little known story that when JBC was being moved from his stretcher onto the examination table in Parkland Hospital a bullet or large bullet fragment fell on the floor and was picked up by a nurse who was told by Henry Wade to give it to a police officer, which she did.

Dr. Gregory describes Connally having a linear back wound that is perhaps 3/4 of an inch in length, which is evidence of a tumbling bullet. I have seen Connally's shirt entrance but the only relevant evidence is the actual wound.

Mr. SPECTER - What did the wound of entry look like, Doctor?
Dr. GREGORY - It appeared to me that the wound of entry was sort of a linear wound, perhaps three-quarters of an inch in length with a rounded central portion. Whereas, the wound of exit was rather larger than this, perhaps an inch and a half across.

The doctor illustrated the orientation of the linear wound and if the bullet entered at such an extreme angle the assassin was either very low or way higher than the 6th floor of the TBSD and since we know the exit was just below the right nipple and allowing for bullet deflection, the bullet came from roughly Oswald's sniper's nest.







John Lattimer recreated what a bullet would do after striking Kennedy and nearly in every case the bullet tumbled.



BTW Dan, I like how you're a ballistics expert, a medical expert, a forensics expert and a physics expert but as Mason rightfully pointed out and no offence, your physics knowledge is barely high school level. You know Dan, what springs to mind is that you're a Jack of ALL trades but a master of none!

JohnM