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Online Royell Storing

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Re: If I had planned the conspiracy ...
« Reply #80 on: February 13, 2025, 03:13:42 PM »
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I don't know what the rules are here, but rather prominent Ed Forum member, Jon Tidd, a fellow Arizona lawyer, was summarily banned by James Gordon for playing the "you claim to be" game with me. It takes about 20 seconds on Google to establish the fact that I graduated magna cum laude from Arizona State Law School in 1982 (Member of the Coif, Law Review, etc., etc.), was admitted to the Arizona and federal bars that year, was a regional antitrust counsel for a Fortune 100 corporation, was a partner in one of the oldest Arizona law firms, served as Chief Deputy County Attorney for an Arizona county, published four law review articles and two humor pieces in Arizona Attorney Magazine, have numerous reported decisions, retired in 2018, and so on and so forth.

Here's a reported Arizona Supreme Court decision to whet your appetite: https://law.justia.com/cases/arizona/supreme-court/1991/cv-90-0490-pr-2.html.

Do you actually claim to be a foaming-at-the-mouth CT nutcase or just let the evidence speak for itself?

   Stop with the ballyhooing. In sports, thy have an expression. It's, "Act like you belong". Put your "Beaver Skin" away, (Cub Scouts), and let your work speak for itself.

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Re: If I had planned the conspiracy ...
« Reply #80 on: February 13, 2025, 03:13:42 PM »


Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: If I had planned the conspiracy ...
« Reply #81 on: February 13, 2025, 03:17:58 PM »
In any attempt to devise a plausible conspiracy theory, it seems to me that the difficulty increases exponentially if one insists on making Oswald any sort of patsy.

He merely said he was a patsy of the DPD, picked up only because he'd been to Russia. He said nothing to suggest he'd been a patsy in the assassination unless you want to view his statement to Robert ("Don't believe the so-called evidence against me") in that context. If he'd loudly announced "Things aren't what they appear. I've been framed. The truth will come out in due course." - well, OK, the CT patsy crowd would have a leg to stand on. Since he didn't, I simply don't understand the patsy-obsession.

The Actual Oswald was perfectly capable of strange and violent actions. A great deal of evidence suggests he was an active shooter on 11-22. A conspiracy that deals with the Actual Oswald and the Actual Evidence pointing to him has, it seems to me, vastly more plausibility than any patsy theory and looks far more like a real-world conspiracy. The patsy theories inevitably become absurdly complex and top-heavy, almost a textbook case of How Not to Apply Occam's Razor (or Ockham, as the case may be).

Yes, a non-patsy theory is not as sexy or fun. Since the CT crowd seems obsessed with making Oswald a patsy and all that flows from that, I've concluded that this isn't a serious historical quest but more in the nature of a hobby, game or religion. Sexy and fun seems to be exactly what the CT crowd wants.

In any attempt to devise a plausible conspiracy theory, it seems to me that the difficulty increases exponentially if one insists on making Oswald any sort of patsy.

I disagree. To make any kind of plausible conspiracy claim, it would require to have Oswald involved in some capacity and on some level. If you can present a conspiracy theory in which Oswald, as a complete outsider, is targeted to be the patsy, I would love to hear it.

He merely said he was a patsy of the DPD, picked up only because he'd been to Russia. He said nothing to suggest he'd been a patsy in the assassination

He was asked if he had killed the President and replied that nobody had said that to him and that he didn't know why he had been arrested. All of this took place in a matter of seconds in a massively crowded hallway full of reporters.

Hardly the time or place to make elaborate statements and even less so as he was being dragged from room to room by police officers. I am truly amazed that you, as a lawyer, would attach any value to short statements made in the middle of chaos.

If he'd loudly announced "Things aren't what they appear. I've been framed. The truth will come out in due course." - well, OK, the CT patsy crowd would have a leg to stand on. Since he didn't, I simply don't understand the patsy-obsession.

Oswald was arrested for killing Tippit and wasn't charged with the murder of Kennedy until just prior to his appearance before the media. At what point, do you think, would he have understood enough about what was going on to conclude that he had been framed? Having said that, is it, in your experience, normal for people that are arrested in Arizona to make full, complete statements during the first hours after their arrest?

The Actual Oswald was perfectly capable of strange and violent actions. A great deal of evidence suggests he was an active shooter on 11-22. A conspiracy that deals with the Actual Oswald and the Actual Evidence pointing to him has, it seems to me, vastly more plausibility than any patsy theory and looks far more like a real-world conspiracy. The patsy theories inevitably become absurdly complex and top-heavy, almost a textbook case of How Not to Apply Occam's Razor (or Ockham, as the case may be).

I agree that a superficial examination of the narrative and evidence would indeed lead to the conclusion that Oswald was indeed the lone gunman. I accepted that finding for many years until I had a conversation with somebody who told me about the many discrepancies in the evidence. When I looked into it myself (I started by reading the Warren Report) it became clear to me that the official narrative was in fact a highly contrived prosecutorial story for the sole purpose of wrapping the case around an already dead suspect. I need to add that this, by itself, doesn't justify the conclusion that Oswald wasn't the lone gunman he was made out to be, but it did raise many questions about the investigation and the way evidence was handled, which still haven't been answered to this day.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2025, 03:19:56 PM by Martin Weidmann »

Online Dan O'meara

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Re: If I had planned the conspiracy ...
« Reply #82 on: February 13, 2025, 06:40:07 PM »
In any attempt to devise a plausible conspiracy theory, it seems to me that the difficulty increases exponentially if one insists on making Oswald any sort of patsy.

He merely said he was a patsy of the DPD, picked up only because he'd been to Russia. He said nothing to suggest he'd been a patsy in the assassination unless you want to view his statement to Robert ("Don't believe the so-called evidence against me") in that context. If he'd loudly announced "Things aren't what they appear. I've been framed. The truth will come out in due course." - well, OK, the CT patsy crowd would have a leg to stand on. Since he didn't, I simply don't understand the patsy-obsession.

The Actual Oswald was perfectly capable of strange and violent actions. A great deal of evidence suggests he was an active shooter on 11-22. A conspiracy that deals with the Actual Oswald and the Actual Evidence pointing to him has, it seems to me, vastly more plausibility than any patsy theory and looks far more like a real-world conspiracy. The patsy theories inevitably become absurdly complex and top-heavy, almost a textbook case of How Not to Apply Occam's Razor (or Ockham, as the case may be).

Yes, a non-patsy theory is not as sexy or fun. Since the CT crowd seems obsessed with making Oswald a patsy and all that flows from that, I've concluded that this isn't a serious historical quest but more in the nature of a hobby, game or religion. Sexy and fun seems to be exactly what the CT crowd wants.

The "patsy" thing isn't really to do with Oswald's use of that word and what it might mean.
It was simply adopted by those who believe Oswald was framed. That's all it means. Pick another word - "stooge", "fall-guy", "dupe" etc.
I've posted a perfectly plausible and simple conspiracy theory that has Oswald as the fall-guy. It certainly isn't "absurdly complex and top-heavy".
To be honest, I get the impression you're not really interested in discussing or debating anything other than an Oswald-Did-It scenario.
That's cool.
That's your interpretation of the evidence.

Ronald Fischer, Bob Edwards, Arnold Rowland and Howard Brennan describe the man on the 6th floor wearing clothing Oswald wasn't wearing that day.

Amos Euins repeatedly describes seeing a bald spot on top of the shooters head, 2 to 3 inches back from his hairline - Oswald didn't have such a bald spot.

Oswald did have a pronounced receding hairline, neither Fischer nor Edwards report that even though they describe his hair and Rowland flatly states that he didn't think the man had a receding hairline.

Brennan thought the man on the 6th floor was a lot older than Oswald.

Brennan, Fisher and Rowland described the man as having a fair/light complexion. Oswald had a dark, unshaven complexion.

Brennan describes the shooter standing at the window admiring his handiwork after the shooting and that he was still stood there after the presidential limo had passed into the underpass. This is at least 8 seconds after the head shot (thought by many to be the last shot). This alone destroys the 3 second window of opportunity Oswald had to get down to the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter with Baker, as established by the time trials.

Hank Norman, stood directly under the shooters position. He heard the shell casings hitting the wooden floor a few feet directly above his head. According to the time trials Oswald was supposed to start his escape immediately after the last shot but, although Hank heard the shell casings hitting the floor, he never heard Oswald's heavy Oxford work shoes moving. Because, as Brennan pointed out, the shooter just stood there, he didn't move anywhere for a good few seconds.

As Oswald clomped down the stairs to the 5th floor and walked across the floor to the next set of stairs, he wasn't noticed by Jack Dougherty who was supposed to be stood just feet away from the stairs.

The same on the 4th floor. Dorothy Garner followed Vickie Adams and Sandra Styles into the storage area behind the offices. She heard the two young women clattering down the wooden stairs in their high heels and a couple of minutes later she saw Truly and Baker come up the same stairs. In the intervening seconds she should have seen and heard Oswald as he moved down the stairs from the 5th floor, walked across the floor and down the stairs to the 3rd floor. But she didn't. And neither did any of the other women who had moved into the same area and were watching the railroad/grassy knoll area through the west windows.

And the idea that a fleeing assassin stopped off in the lunchroom to grab a Coke is as bad as any Tinfoil  BS: out there.

It was physically impossible for Baker to see anyone moving through the 'vestibule' door window if they were taking the route Oswald was supposed to be taking.

In a report written in Sept' '64, Baker actually wrote that the man he saw stood in the lunchroom was "drinking a coke". Once again, this destroys the 3 second time window established by the time trials.

Oswald reportedly had an interaction with Junior Jarman and a man who can only be Hank Norman on the first floor while he was having his lunch in the domino room. The only time this was possible was when Jarman and Norman entered the back of the building on their way up to the 5th floor. This was approximately 5 minutes before the shooting. There is no way Oswald could've 'guessed' that Jarman and Norman were in a position to be seen together from the domino room. Again, that is as bad as any Tinfoil  BS:

The lunch remains left by Bonnie Ray Williams on the 6th floor were initially discovered on top of one of the stacks of boxes that form the Sniper's Nest indicating that Bonnie Ray had eaten his lunch while he was in the Sniper's Nest waiting for the motorcade.

Arnold Rowland saw a black male in the Sniper's Nest at 12:15 pm who can only have been Bonnie Ray although Rowland severely over-estimated the age of the man he saw for which there are mitigating factors.

Around the same time Arnold saw a man with a scoped, high-powered rifle on the 6th floor but through the most westerly set of windows.

Your interpretation of the evidence is your own business but your inability to understand why others don't agree with your interpretation or why they might have their own interpretations isn't necessarily a shortcoming in these other interpretations. Far from it.
Personally, I don't believe Oswald took the shots that killed JFK.
I don't believe he was even on the 6th floor at the time of the shooting.
I believe the evidence points to Oswald being on the first floor at this time while someone else took the shots.
I believe Oswald was guilty in the sense he was somehow involved in what happened that day. I think his actions before and after the shooting point to that guilt.
I believe that when he left the TSBD building he was a fugitive on the run and that he was heading for the border and Mexico.
I believe he shot and killed Tippit.
But, I don't believe he understood that what he was involved with was the assassination of JFK and I think at some point he figured out that he had been played.

Framing Oswald was simple - leave his rifle at the crime scene.
That's all it took to pull the wool over a lot of people's eyes.

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Re: If I had planned the conspiracy ...
« Reply #82 on: February 13, 2025, 06:40:07 PM »


Offline Lance Payette

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Re: If I had planned the conspiracy ...
« Reply #83 on: February 13, 2025, 08:03:21 PM »
The "patsy" thing isn't really to do with Oswald's use of that word and what it might mean.
It was simply adopted by those who believe Oswald was framed. That's all it means. Pick another word - "stooge", "fall-guy", "dupe" etc.
I've posted a perfectly plausible and simple conspiracy theory that has Oswald as the fall-guy. It certainly isn't "absurdly complex and top-heavy".
To be honest, I get the impression you're not really interested in discussing or debating anything other than an Oswald-Did-It scenario.
That's cool.
That's your interpretation of the evidence.
Thanks for the lecture, but I am pretty well-informed about the case. There are indeed aspects I find problematical and even troubling, but I'm satisfied I'm as well-informed about the case as a human can reasonably be and, as you suggest, I am indeed no longer really interested in discussing or debating any of it except in the broadest epistemological terms. Epistemology is the last place most CTers want to go. Most of them don't even seem to CARE whether what they say makes any logical sense, which suggests to me they aren't dealing with "cognitive faculties operating as they were intended to operate" (as famed epistemologist Alvin Plantinga insists is necessary for beliefs to be epistemologically justified).

Mostly it's just a form of amusment for me because it's all so silly. Do I really care who killed JFK? Nah. My conviction at this point is that it was Oswald, but if it wasn't I'll be delighted to learn the truth when it's revealed. Shortly I'll move on and go back to tweaking atheists, again mostly for the amusement value and mental exercise.

Your "perfectly plausible and simple" theory does involve direct involvement by LBJ, with LBJ conceiving the plot and instigating and organizing the Dallas trip ... David Harold Byrd agreeing to make it happen in return for a massive LTV contract ... Jack Cason of the TSBD being brought into the plot ... Cason knowing of Bill Shelley's (highly dubious and unlikely) CIA connections and bringing him into the loop to make it happen ... and Shelley finding a sniper and somehow doing the patsy thing with Oswald.

Hello? Perhaps not so simple? LBJ is going put his life in the hands of Byrd, Cason, Shelley and some sniper? Byrd is going to put his life in the hands of Cason, Shelley and some sniper? Really, ya think? There's no evidence for any of this and it seems fantastically improbable to me. On top of which, you conveniently side-step the issue of what Oswald's patsy role would have looked like in real-world terms - i.e, all the issues raised by my goofy original post. What the hell happened - did Shelley completely drop the ball? Why was Shelley allowed to live anyway? Is there anything in Cason's or Shelley's subsequent lives to suggest they received vast sums for their participation? By the time this was put through a thought exercise like my original post, I think you'd find it would have had to involve far more than five people and would scarcely look "simple and perfectly plausible." Idiotic, perhaps?

Any plausible conspiracy theory is going to have Oswald as at least one of the gunmen, simple as that. You can have him duped into thinking he's conspiring with fellow pro-Castroites when in fact they are anti-Castroites, but the patsy-framed-duped thing just goes nowhere IMO.

Offline Lance Payette

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Re: If I had planned the conspiracy ...
« Reply #84 on: February 13, 2025, 08:05:56 PM »
   Stop with the ballyhooing. In sports, thy have an expression. It's, "Act like you belong". Put your "Beaver Skin" away, (Cub Scouts), and let your work speak for itself.
Martin repeatedly used the phrase "claim to be a lawyer" in reference to me. That phrase suggests, and was clearly intended to suggest, "not really a lawyer." As lawyers are wont to do, I shoved Martin's innuendo up his ass. Case closed.

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Re: If I had planned the conspiracy ...
« Reply #84 on: February 13, 2025, 08:05:56 PM »


Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: If I had planned the conspiracy ...
« Reply #85 on: February 13, 2025, 08:24:48 PM »
Martin repeatedly used the phrase "claim to be a lawyer" in reference to me. That phrase suggests, and was clearly intended to suggest, "not really a lawyer." As lawyers are wont to do, I shoved Martin's innuendo up his ass. Case closed.

So paranoid.... I don't care what you think the phrase suggested. All I saw you do on this forum was claiming to be a lawyer, so when I used the phrase "claim to be a lawyer" it did not imply or suggest anything more than that.

As lawyers are wont to do, I shoved Martin's innuendo up his ass.

Oh boy..... oh well, there are lawyers and then there are lawyers..... Thumb1:
« Last Edit: February 13, 2025, 08:28:19 PM by Martin Weidmann »

Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: If I had planned the conspiracy ...
« Reply #86 on: February 13, 2025, 08:34:58 PM »
Thanks for the lecture, but I am pretty well-informed about the case. There are indeed aspects I find problematical and even troubling, but I'm satisfied I'm as well-informed about the case as a human can reasonably be and, as you suggest, I am indeed no longer really interested in discussing or debating any of it except in the broadest epistemological terms. Epistemology is the last place most CTers want to go. Most of them don't even seem to CARE whether what they say makes any logical sense, which suggests to me they aren't dealing with "cognitive faculties operating as they were intended to operate" (as famed epistemologist Alvin Plantinga insists is necessary for beliefs to be epistemologically justified).

Mostly it's just a form of amusment for me because it's all so silly. Do I really care who killed JFK? Nah. My conviction at this point is that it was Oswald, but if it wasn't I'll be delighted to learn the truth when it's revealed. Shortly I'll move on and go back to tweaking atheists, again mostly for the amusement value and mental exercise.

Your "perfectly plausible and simple" theory does involve direct involvement by LBJ, with LBJ conceiving the plot and instigating and organizing the Dallas trip ... David Harold Byrd agreeing to make it happen in return for a massive LTV contract ... Jack Cason of the TSBD being brought into the plot ... Cason knowing of Bill Shelley's (highly dubious and unlikely) CIA connections and bringing him into the loop to make it happen ... and Shelley finding a sniper and somehow doing the patsy thing with Oswald.

Hello? Perhaps not so simple? LBJ is going put his life in the hands of Byrd, Cason, Shelley and some sniper? Byrd is going to put his life in the hands of Cason, Shelley and some sniper? Really, ya think? There's no evidence for any of this and it seems fantastically improbable to me. On top of which, you conveniently side-step the issue of what Oswald's patsy role would have looked like in real-world terms - i.e, all the issues raised by my goofy original post. What the hell happened - did Shelley completely drop the ball? Why was Shelley allowed to live anyway? Is there anything in Cason's or Shelley's subsequent lives to suggest they received vast sums for their participation? By the time this was put through a thought exercise like my original post, I think you'd find it would have had to involve far more than five people and would scarcely look "simple and perfectly plausible." Idiotic, perhaps?

Any plausible conspiracy theory is going to have Oswald as at least one of the gunmen, simple as that. You can have him duped into thinking he's conspiring with fellow pro-Castroites when in fact they are anti-Castroites, but the patsy-framed-duped thing just goes nowhere IMO.

I am indeed no longer really interested in discussing or debating any of it

Well, I guess in some galaxy it must make complete sense to join a public forum to not debate the subject matter of that forum.  :D

Hilarious!

Online Mitch Todd

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Re: If I had planned the conspiracy ...
« Reply #87 on: February 14, 2025, 12:41:45 AM »
For what it's worth....

In their Supplemental Offence Report,  Davenport and Bardin wrote that "at 3:30 Captain Fritz of the Homicide Bureau advised Officers  to take the 38 S &W snubnose (Ser # 510210) that was used in the shooting and 3 live 38 shells and [we] also turned these over to Capt Doughty of the ID bureau" 

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338163/m1/1/

Gerald Hill wrote a duties and actions report for Curry on 5 Dec 1963. In this account, Hill, Carroll, and McDonald turn the pistol over to Homicide detective TL Baker at "approximately 3:15 PM." See here: https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth337502/m1/3/?q=gerald%20hill

From this, it would appear that Hill gave the pistol to the Homicide squad ~3:15PM, and they in turn handed it to Davenport at ~3:30PM, tasking the latter to turn the gun over to the ID Bureau. Given this, there's no discrepancy.
 

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Re: If I had planned the conspiracy ...
« Reply #87 on: February 14, 2025, 12:41:45 AM »