David Harold Byrd

[Lance Payette]

I will attempt to restrain The Caped Factoid Buster, much as I enjoy him, and respond semi-seriously.

The purchase of 132,000 shares of Ling-Temco-Vought stock by Alpha-Omega Corp. in 1963 has been known for many years. I've seen references dating back to the early 2000's. Alpha-Omega was indeed an investment vehicle for Ling and Byrd. The Value Line Newsletter from 1-24-1964, wherein the purchase of the 132,000 shares is listed, is the only reference to Alpha-Omega I've ever found. It's not clear whether the purchase actually occurred in 11-1963 or if that's simply when it was reported to the SEC ("These transactions were filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission from Nov. 11 to Dec. 10, 1963").

Joan Mellon's statement that LTV "was about to go under" isn't really accurate. 1959 to 1961 was a time of unprecedented acquisition and growth for Ling Electronics. In 1959, Ling acquired Altec Companies. In 1960, Ling-Altec acquired Temco. In 1961, Ling-Temco acquired Chance Vought. After the latter acquisition, LTV management discovered that Vought had much more serious problems than had been known. Hence, from 1961 to 1965 LTV focused on "restructuring itself by organizing divisions according to technologies and by disposing of divisions not compatible with LTV's future goals." This quote is from a scholarly 1976 paper that used LTV as a case study: https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc663359/m2/1/high_res_d/1002773093-Ling.pdf. I see no evidence that LTV was about to go under; quite the opposite, in fact, as the paper makes clear.

As the paper also makes clear, the 1961 to 1965 restructuring included massive stock exchanges and whatnot. Hence, I don't believe it is fair to leap to the conclusion that there was something suspicious or JFKA-related about Alpha-Omega's acquisition of 132,000 shares in 1963, smack in the middle of the restructuring. This is the product, it seems to me, of Robert Morrow's feverish LBJ-did-it imagination.

One of the earliest books on the JFKA was Who Killed Kennedy? by Thomas G. Buchanan. He was a serious American journalist with Communist leanings. The book was first published in the U.K. before a revised edition was published in the U.S. The U.K. edition was out before the Warren Commission even got rolling. Several informed, non-lunatic CTers think Buchanan perhaps came the closest to actually solving the JFKA. He didn't name names, but his basic thesis was that the culprits were Texas oilmen like Byrd (he avoided any LBJ angle). It's well worth reading today.

The Texas oilmen theory obviously has far more going for it than the more elaborate and wacky conspiracy theories. LBJ clearly had the motive (about to be dropped from the ticket and probably indicted), folks like Byrd clearly had the motive ($$$ - the oil depletion allowance and potential LTV defense contracts) and means, Byrd had the connection to the TSBD, they all hated JFK for a variety of reasons, the plot would have required minimal participants, etc., etc., etc. Even without LBJ being involved at all, the Texas oilmen theory is quite plausible.

This theory is insufficiently sexy for the loudest voices in the CT community, who will not be happy unless the plot involved the CIA, FBI, Bay of Pigs and a host of other agencies and individuals. They require a conspiracy that will serve to confirm their dark view of the subsequent history of the U.S. As I've said previously, they work backwards from the Sorry State of the Country Today to how the JFKA can explain it and why everything would be better if JFK and RFK had lived; if a conspiracy theory won't do this, they aren't really interested. (The second most plausible candidate for a conspiracy theory is clearly the Mafia - but the CT community isn’t really interested in it either, for the same reasons.)

My problems with the Texas oilmen theory are three: (1) It's all speculation. There is not a shred of actual evidence on which to hang the vast body of speculation. It's simply the most plausible of a number of reasonably plausible but entirely speculative theories, all of which are superficially plausible because JFK was so widely despised. (2) Given what we do know about the events in Dealey Plaza, I have a difficult time seeing what any conspiracy scenario would actually have looked like and how it would have made any real-world sense. (3) Given what I know about Oswald, which is absolutely everything that can be known at this time, I do not see him as plausibly involved in a conspiracy as either a witting or unwitting participant whereas I do see him as an entirely plausible lone assassin. YMMV.

The problem, as always, is Oswald. LBJ and the Texas oilmen didn't need Oswald, for crying out loud. His involvement would do nothing but exponentially increase the risk. They didn't need any patsy - what would that accomplish? But since Oswald has to be accounted for somehow, EVERY conspiracy theory plugs him - or a cardboard him who bears no resemblance to the actual guy - into the scenario like a round peg in a square hole.

[Lance Payette]

Dan seems to have lost enthusiasm for his Byrd thread. Well, Factoid Busting does tend to have that effect.

I realize this isn't f-a-s-c-i-n-a-t-i-n-g to most - Factoid Busting does tend to be rather dull - but according to the SEC at the end of 1962 Ling-Temco-Vought had nearly 3,000,000 shares of common stock outstanding, with less than 8% owned by management. The paper I linked makes clear that 1963 was a time of massive reorganization by LTV, in which the number of shares was greatly reduced, numerous subsidiaries were created and numerous shares were exchanged in the process. Hence, the supposedly suspicious acquisition of the rather odd and comparatively insignificant number of 132,000 shares by Alpha-Omega in 1963 is surely attributable to this activity rather than to Ling and Byrd being tipped off that JFK would be assassinated (or even participating in the assassination themselves) and buying 132,000 shares in anticipation that LBJ's favors would cause the shares to explode in price (they were already fabulously rich and LTV was already awash in government contracts). This is yet another example of what entirely speculative Conspiracy Think looks like.

[Dan O'meara]

Dan seems to have lost enthusiasm for his Byrd thread. Well, Factoid Busting does tend to have that effect.

I realize this isn't f-a-s-c-i-n-a-t-i-n-g to most - Factoid Busting does tend to be rather dull - but according to the SEC at the end of 1962 Ling-Temco-Vought had nearly 3,000,000 shares of common stock outstanding, with less than 8% owned by management. The paper I linked makes clear that 1963 was a time of massive reorganization by LTV, in which the number of shares was greatly reduced, numerous subsidiaries were created and numerous shares were exchanged in the process. Hence, the supposedly suspicious acquisition of the rather odd and comparatively insignificant number of 132,000 shares by Alpha-Omega in 1963 is surely attributable to this activity rather than to Ling and Byrd being tipped off that JFK would be assassinated (or even participating in the assassination themselves) and buying 132,000 shares in anticipation that LBJ's favors would cause the shares to explode in price (they were already fabulously rich and LTV was already awash in government contracts). This is yet another example of what entirely speculative Conspiracy Think looks like.

"Dan seems to have lost enthusiasm for his Byrd thread. Well, Factoid Busting does tend to have that effect"

Some of us have lives that need attending to.
Unlike you, I don't disappear from threads I start because, unlike you, I'm genuinely trying to understand this case.

As presented elsewhere, the credible evidence concerning who was on the 6th floor just before, during and after the assassination ALL points away from Oswald as being the shooter. As such, I do not accept that Oswald was on the 6th floor at the time of the assassination. To be honest, it is enough to leave it at that. The last major governmental investigation into the assassination concluded Conspiracy but didn't feel the need to get into it.
But how can I be a Conspiracy Theorist if I don't propose some kind of theory that accounts for the evidence showing that Oswald didn't take the shots (because ignoring this evidence isn't an option for someone like me)?
The first question is -Who had motive?
One of the many failings of the Oswald-Did-It [ODI] theory is the lack of motive. In fact, Oswald would have been massively in favour of JFK's approach to many issues, especially civil rights. For Oswald, JFK would have been the least hateful man in the whole motorcade. John Connally or Lyndon Johnson would have been understandable targets for Oswald, not JFK.
In terms of motive it's LBJ all the way. No one comes in as a close second. Johnson displayed all the traits of a true psychopath including the torturing of animals when he was young. He had a psychotic desire for the ultimate power of presidency and accepted being VP because of the chance the president could be assassinated. But he was off the ticket for sure in '64 and his window of opportunity to grab the presidency was almost up. He was humiliated by the Kennedy's who despised him and he despised them in return.
But more than all that, he was literally on the cusp of charges for corruption and murder and knew his one and only way out was to grab the presidency.
The assassination of JFK had to happen as far as LBJ was concerned.

Just a quick note, Lance...I'm not proposing a cabal of oilmen, the CIA, the FBI, the Russians, the Cubans, the Mafia or any of that so you don't have to keep bringing up what other people are into. It has nothing to do with me.
You write that "the Texas oilmen theory is quite plausible". What I'm proposing is way more straight forward than that so you must agree about it being plausible.
You also make this point:

"Given what we do know about the events in Dealey Plaza, I have a difficult time seeing what any conspiracy scenario would actually have looked like and how it would have made any real-world sense."

I think the simplicity of what I'm proposing is eluding you.
A man firing a rifle at JFK from the SN.
That's it.
Only it's not Oswald taking the shots.
No teams of shooters all over Dealey Plaza or any of that.
What are you having a "difficult time seeing"?

So, let's speculate.
LBJ wants JFK dead asap.
He needs to make it happen or he is finished.
Let's keep this as simple as it is possible to be.
He discusses this with one person. No cabal. No secret group or organization.
This person is the man who owns the building from which the shots are taken - David Harold Byrd.
So, what's in it for Byrd?
Let's put aside Byrd's ultra far-right loathing of JFK, because the answer is far more obvious - untold millions of dollars.
The first defense contract that LBJ awards (from a budget that hasn't been agreed) is to Byrd's company LTV. The oil depletion allowance is left in tact also.
All LBJ has to do is get JFK to agree to come to Dallas. Other than that he has no connection with the assassination whatsoever.

This brings us to the purchase of 132,000 shares of Ling-Temco-Vought stock by Alpha-Omega.
It is my contention that Byrd's purchase of shares in LTV just before the assassination indicates foreknowledge, as does his decision to get out of the country for the first time ever.
It is your contention that the purchase of these shares is just part of an on-going restructuring of LTV and of no significance.
What is the background to the purchase of these shares?
The thesis you have linked to is an excellent piece of research that I must commend you on and it is something I've only had a chance to look over in a cursory way but I intend to delve into it more deeply when I get a chance.
Firstly, I agree that Mellon's assessment of LTV being on the verge of bankruptcy is way off the mark.
The history leading up to LTV's formation is as you state:

"1959 to 1961 was a time of unprecedented acquisition and growth for Ling Electronics. In 1959, Ling acquired Altec Companies. In 1960, Ling-Altec acquired Temco. In 1961, Ling-Temco acquired Chance Vought. After the latter acquisition, LTV management discovered that Vought had much more serious problems than had been known."

It's important to understand the "serious problems" that came with the acquisition of Chance Vought. This is from the thesis:

Soon after the Chance Vought merger however, Ling-TemcoVought discovered that as a result of contract cancellations, Chance Vought had "gone into a very ill-advised and random diversification effort". Even though at the time of the merger Ling-Temco knew Chance Vought had problems, they soon found out they had under estimated the size and magnitude of those problems. Chance Vought's random diversification effort had "resulted in operational and nonrecurring charges, never previously disclosed, of some $25 million" (4, p. 11) . As a result of the merger, LTV had $35 million in write-offs, a substantial amount of diversified activities that they wanted no part of, and had a "net worth of $13 million and long and short term debt of $112 million as of December 31, 1961."

By the end of 1961 LTV was in debt to the tune of $112 million (roughly equivalent to $1.2 billion today).
It is a staggering amount of debt:

"It was estimated by LTV's management that it would take the rest of their corporate productive lives to pay off the enormous debt, assuming a $3 million to $5 million range for annual earnings. It was then decided by LTV management that the next several years would be devoted to restructuring LTV, with little emphasis on acquisitions."

The days of growth and acquisition were over.
LTV had to decide what it's future was going to look like and dump everything that wasn't part of that future. It had to 'streamline' in order to get the colossal amount of debt under control.

"LTV sold four divisions or subsidiaries for approximately $28 million in cash and securities (2, p. 1-4). Once these dispositions were complete, LTV streamlined its organizational structure from twenty divisions to eleven divisions operating in three technological fields--commercial electronics, military electronics, and aerospace products. In addition, LTV initiated a high degree of centralized management control and cost control programs."


This is the backdrop against which Byrd and Ling decided to by 132,000 shares. Crippling debt, dumping assets and "cost control programs".
The future did not look great. JFK was nailed on for another four years and, as someone looking to de-escalate war, could not have been worse news for LTV shares.

I look forward to getting into the detail of this thesis but the idea that the substantial purchase of shares which had no potential value was part of 'business as usual' can be dispensed with.
The idea Byrd was aware that things were about to take a turn for the better seems more plausible.

[Lance Payette]

By the end of 1961 LTV was in debt to the tune of $112 million (roughly equivalent to $1.2 billion today).
It is a staggering amount of debt:

The days of growth and acquisition were over.
LTV had to decide what it's future was going to look like and dump everything that wasn't part of that future. It had to 'streamline' in order to get the colossal amount of debt under control.

This is the backdrop against which Byrd and Ling decided to by 132,000 shares. Crippling debt, dumping assets and "cost control programs".
The future did not look great. JFK was nailed on for another four years and, as someone looking to de-escalate war, could not have been worse news for LTV shares.

YOU COULDN'T POSSIBLY BE MORE WRONG. Do you know nothing about the history of L-T-V? L-T-V in the 1960s was one of the all-time investor darlings and the poster-child for insane, out-of-control growth - and it had little to do with the A-7 Corsair contract (which, like many defense contracts, was indeed extremely profitable thanks in large part to Vietnam). In fact, August of 1963 was the first month that L-T-V stock had ever paid a cash dividend. October pf 1963 was when Chance Vought Corporation ceased to exist as a separate entity. Lots was going on at L-T-V in 1963.

This, from a stock publication, describes what you apparently think was a faltering, defense-oriented company that LBJ had to rescue:

"In 1960, Ling merged his company with Temco Aircraft, best known for their missile work, and using additional funding from insurance businessman Troy Post, they bought the famous Chance Vought aerospace firm. The new company became Ling-Temco-Vought, with a combined sales of $2.7 billion in 1969. With low interest rates allowing the company to borrow huge sums, Ling proceeded to build up one of the major 1960s conglomerates. As long as the target company's earnings exceeded the interest on the loan (or corporate bond), or the company's price/earnings ratio was less than that of LTV's stock, the conglomerate became more profitable overall. Given the fairly unsophisticated stock research of the era, the company appeared to be growing without bound, and its share prices rose. In 1964 Ling started a holding company and established three public companies, LTV Aerospace, LTV Ling Altec, and LTV Electrosystems, mirroring the original companies that formed LTV. This action raised capital, allowing Ling to raise more loans and buy more companies. In 1965, Ling added the wire and cable company Okonite. In 1967 they bought Wilson and Company, noted for their golfing equipment, but also involved in meat-packing and pharmaceuticals. He later spun each of these divisions into separate companies traded on the American Stock Exchange; they soon acquired the trader nicknames "Golfball," "Meatball," and "Goofball," respectively. 1968 added Greatamerica, Post's holding company for Braniff Airways and National Car Rental, and J & L Steel. In addition he acquired a series of resorts in Acapulco, Guerrero, Mexico, and Steamboat Springs, Colorado. By 1969 LTV had purchased 33 companies, employed 29,000 workers, and offered 15,000 separate products and services, and was one of the forty biggest industrial corporations."

Uh-huh, L-T-V was really on the ropes until LBJ bailed them out with that A-7 contract. The fact is, late 1963, when your "suspicious" 132,000 shares were acquired by Alpha-Omega, was precisely when L-T-V was starting to ride high and was engaging in all variety of reorganization-related stock activities and acquisitions. ONCE AGAIN, YOU COULDN'T BE MORE WRONG: The reorganization wasn't undertaken because L-T-V was on the ropes but because Ling realized that this shell game with subsidiaries and shares could create the illusion of fantastic success. And the shell game worked until 1970, when it all came crashing down.

Concerning the A-7 contract, presumably you realize that Chance Vought had been a major defense contractor for decades and was a far larger company than Ling-Temco. The timing of the A-7 contract really doesn't fit a highly suspicious, assassination-related narrative: The basic need had been known, and Vought had been working on a design, since 1961. We'll let Wikipedia pick it up from there (citing an aviation history text): "On 17 May 1963, these criteria were formulated into a draft requirement, known as VAL (Heavier-than-air, Attack, Light). On 29 May 1963, the request for proposals (RFP) associated with the requirement was issued. To minimize costs, all proposals had to be based on existing designs. Accordingly, Vought, Douglas Aircraft, Grumman and North American Aviation chose to respond. The Vought proposal was based on their successful F-8 Crusader fighter and sharing a similar configuration; however, it had a shorter airframe with a rounded nose, giving the aircraft a "stubbier" appearance. All bids were received by September 1963 and the evaluation process was completed in early November of that year. On 8 February 1964, funding for VAL was approved by Congress, enabling the program to proceed; three days later, Vought's submission was selected as the winner. On 19 March 1964, Vought received a contract from the Navy for the manufacture of the initial batch of aircraft, designated A-7."

Despite the foregoing, CT sites repeatedly state that "LBJ awarded the contract" to L-T-V "before Congress had even approved the funding." Not exactly. Did any of the other bidders protest the award of the contract? No, they did not. Were defense contractors, and particularly the many Texas-based ones, delighted LBJ was President? Undoubtedly, but this is scarcely a rational basis for speculation they participated in the JFKA. Your speculation about the 132,000 shares is simply that - raw, unfounded, speculation of the sort that typifies Conspiracy Factoids.

As far as your "simple" JFKA theory goes, I find it neither simple nor plausible. You write as though it would practically be business-as-usual for LBJ and Byrd to concoct a plot to assassinate JFK, even though the penalty would be execution. Then just business-as-usual for Byrd to convince Cason, even though there is no evidence Cason ever benefitted from the plot. Then just-business-as-usual for Cason to convince Shelley, even though there is once again no evidence Shelley ever benefitted either. Your theory has this all being compartmentalized - I'm not sure how - but the fact is that if it went awry at the Shelley level, or the Cason level, LBJ and Byrd were going to be executed. You seriously think LBJ and Byrd would trust their LIVES to Cason and a cluck like Shelley??? Shelley then finds an appropriate sniper and places him on the sixth floor of the TSBD with all the insane risks that entails. Shelley then somehow arranges for Oswald's rifle to at least on the sixth floor, or perhaps even used for the assassination, with all the risks that entails. Shelley, whose only real role at noon on 11-22-63 is to control Oswald, then fails miserably at this task with all the risks that entails.

Simple? Plausible? I can't even type this without giggling. Can you really not see that what strikes you as simple and plausible is pretty much ... INSANE? If this is really your theory, then stop dealing in generalities and goofy speculation about L-T-V stock transactions and tell us EXACTLY how you think this POSSIBLY could have worked. As with every conspiracy theory, I think we will find that when you descend from the 30,000-foot level of what "coulda mighta happened" and try to describe what it actually would have looked like in the real world, the sillier this theory will look.

[Dan O'meara]

YOU COULDN'T POSSIBLY BE MORE WRONG. Do you know nothing about the history of L-T-V? L-T-V in the 1960s was one of the all-time investor darlings and the poster-child for insane, out-of-control growth - and it had little to do with the A-7 Corsair contract (which, like many defense contracts, was indeed extremely profitable thanks in large part to Vietnam). In fact, August of 1963 was the first month that L-T-V stock had ever paid a cash dividend. October pf 1963 was when Chance Vought Corporation ceased to exist as a separate entity. Lots was going on at L-T-V in 1963.

This, from a stock publication, describes what you apparently think was a faltering, defense-oriented company that LBJ had to rescue:

"In 1960, Ling merged his company with Temco Aircraft, best known for their missile work, and using additional funding from insurance businessman Troy Post, they bought the famous Chance Vought aerospace firm. The new company became Ling-Temco-Vought, with a combined sales of $2.7 billion in 1969. With low interest rates allowing the company to borrow huge sums, Ling proceeded to build up one of the major 1960s conglomerates. As long as the target company's earnings exceeded the interest on the loan (or corporate bond), or the company's price/earnings ratio was less than that of LTV's stock, the conglomerate became more profitable overall. Given the fairly unsophisticated stock research of the era, the company appeared to be growing without bound, and its share prices rose. In 1964 Ling started a holding company and established three public companies, LTV Aerospace, LTV Ling Altec, and LTV Electrosystems, mirroring the original companies that formed LTV. This action raised capital, allowing Ling to raise more loans and buy more companies. In 1965, Ling added the wire and cable company Okonite. In 1967 they bought Wilson and Company, noted for their golfing equipment, but also involved in meat-packing and pharmaceuticals. He later spun each of these divisions into separate companies traded on the American Stock Exchange; they soon acquired the trader nicknames "Golfball," "Meatball," and "Goofball," respectively. 1968 added Greatamerica, Post's holding company for Braniff Airways and National Car Rental, and J & L Steel. In addition he acquired a series of resorts in Acapulco, Guerrero, Mexico, and Steamboat Springs, Colorado. By 1969 LTV had purchased 33 companies, employed 29,000 workers, and offered 15,000 separate products and services, and was one of the forty biggest industrial corporations."

Uh-huh, L-T-V was really on the ropes until LBJ bailed them out with that A-7 contract. The fact is, late 1963, when your "suspicious" 132,000 shares were acquired by Alpha-Omega, was precisely when L-T-V was starting to ride high and was engaging in all variety of reorganization-related stock activities and acquisitions. ONCE AGAIN, YOU COULDN'T BE MORE WRONG: The reorganization wasn't undertaken because L-T-V was on the ropes but because Ling realized that this shell game with subsidiaries and shares could create the illusion of fantastic success. And the shell game worked until 1970, when it all came crashing down.

Concerning the A-7 contract, presumably you realize that Chance Vought had been a major defense contractor for decades and was a far larger company than Ling-Temco. The timing of the A-7 contract really doesn't fit a highly suspicious, assassination-related narrative: The basic need had been known, and Vought had been working on a design, since 1961. We'll let Wikipedia pick it up from there (citing an aviation history text): "On 17 May 1963, these criteria were formulated into a draft requirement, known as VAL (Heavier-than-air, Attack, Light). On 29 May 1963, the request for proposals (RFP) associated with the requirement was issued. To minimize costs, all proposals had to be based on existing designs. Accordingly, Vought, Douglas Aircraft, Grumman and North American Aviation chose to respond. The Vought proposal was based on their successful F-8 Crusader fighter and sharing a similar configuration; however, it had a shorter airframe with a rounded nose, giving the aircraft a "stubbier" appearance. All bids were received by September 1963 and the evaluation process was completed in early November of that year. On 8 February 1964, funding for VAL was approved by Congress, enabling the program to proceed; three days later, Vought's submission was selected as the winner. On 19 March 1964, Vought received a contract from the Navy for the manufacture of the initial batch of aircraft, designated A-7."

Despite the foregoing, CT sites repeatedly state that "LBJ awarded the contract" to L-T-V "before Congress had even approved the funding." Not exactly. Did any of the other bidders protest the award of the contract? No, they did not. Were defense contractors, and particularly the many Texas-based ones, delighted LBJ was President? Undoubtedly, but this is scarcely a rational basis for speculation they participated in the JFKA. Your speculation about the 132,000 shares is simply that - raw, unfounded, speculation of the sort that typifies Conspiracy Factoids.

As far as your "simple" JFKA theory goes, I find it neither simple nor plausible. You write as though it would practically be business-as-usual for LBJ and Byrd to concoct a plot to assassinate JFK, even though the penalty would be execution. Then just business-as-usual for Byrd to convince Cason, even though there is no evidence Cason ever benefitted from the plot. Then just-business-as-usual for Cason to convince Shelley, even though there is once again no evidence Shelley ever benefitted either. Your theory has this all being compartmentalized - I'm not sure how - but the fact is that if it went awry at the Shelley level, or the Cason level, LBJ and Byrd were going to be executed. You seriously think LBJ and Byrd would trust their LIVES to Cason and a cluck like Shelley??? Shelley then finds an appropriate sniper and places him on the sixth floor of the TSBD with all the insane risks that entails. Shelley then somehow arranges for Oswald's rifle to at least on the sixth floor, or perhaps even used for the assassination, with all the risks that entails. Shelley, whose only real role at noon on 11-22-63 is to control Oswald, then fails miserably at this task with all the risks that entails.

Simple? Plausible? I can't even type this without giggling. Can you really not see that what strikes you as simple and plausible is pretty much ... INSANE? If this is really your theory, then stop dealing in generalities and goofy speculation about L-T-V stock transactions and tell us EXACTLY how you think this POSSIBLY could have worked. As with every conspiracy theory, I think we will find that when you descend from the 30,000-foot level of what "coulda mighta happened" and try to describe what it actually would have looked like in the real world, the sillier this theory will look.

Firstly buddy, calm down.
This is just a discussion.
Try and take your foot off the zealot pedal.

YOU COULDN'T POSSIBLY BE MORE WRONG.

I couldn't be more wrong?
I'm simply quoting the thesis that you posted.
By Dec 31, 1961, LTV were saddled with a debt which was equivalent to $1.3 billion in today's money. That's from the thesis you posted.
The management of LTV were quoted as saying that "it would take the rest of their corporate productive lives to pay off the enormous debt". That's from the thesis that you posted.
During '62 and '63 LTV 'streamlined' in an attepmt to get the "enormous debt" under control - "LTV sold four divisions or subsidiaries for approximately $28 million...LTV streamlined its organizational structure from twenty divisions to eleven divisions". That's from the thesis that you posted.
On top of the streamlining " LTV initiated a high degree of centralized management control and cost control programs." That's from the thesis that you posted.

I'm not sure how you are interpreting this information but if you're seeing success and growth then we really are looking at things differently.
And to make it clear, I'm agreeing that "L-T-V in the 1960s was one of the all-time investor darlings and the poster-child for insane, out-of-control growth". But that's because something happened that had nothing to do with 're-structuring' or 'project redeployment'.
This is from a very interesting blog analyzing Valueline's assessment of LTV from various periods:

"D.H. Byrd, his wife Mrs. Byrd and prominent Dallas investor James Ling bought a whopping 132,000 shares of LTV through an investment vehicle called the Alpha-Omega Corporation. It was not disclosed at what price these shares were bought but based on LTV's stock price in that month it was probably about $16 per share for a total new investment into LTV of $2,112,000 in November of 1963. By 1967 at some point those shares were trading for $169 per share and had a total value of $22,308,000 (which in 2024 dollars would be equal to $207,268,036)."
[ https://robertmorrowpoliticalresearchblog.blogspot.com/2024/03/lyndon-johnsons-dallas-tx-insider-pals.html ]

What do you think it was that caused the shares to rocket in such a way as to produce a yield of around $2 billion in toady's money?
Do you think it had anything to do with the "reorganization-related stock activities and acquisitions", as you put it?

Concerning the A-7 contract, presumably you realize that Chance Vought had been a major defense contractor for decades and was a far larger company than Ling-Temco. The timing of the A-7 contract really doesn't fit a highly suspicious, assassination-related narrative: The basic need had been known, and Vought had been working on a design, since 1961. We'll let Wikipedia pick it up from there (citing an aviation history text): "On 17 May 1963, these criteria were formulated into a draft requirement, known as VAL (Heavier-than-air, Attack, Light). On 29 May 1963, the request for proposals (RFP) associated with the requirement was issued. To minimize costs, all proposals had to be based on existing designs. Accordingly, Vought, Douglas Aircraft, Grumman and North American Aviation chose to respond. The Vought proposal was based on their successful F-8 Crusader fighter and sharing a similar configuration; however, it had a shorter airframe with a rounded nose, giving the aircraft a "stubbier" appearance. All bids were received by September 1963 and the evaluation process was completed in early November of that year. On 8 February 1964, funding for VAL was approved by Congress, enabling the program to proceed; three days later, Vought's submission was selected as the winner. On 19 March 1964, Vought received a contract from the Navy for the manufacture of the initial batch of aircraft, designated A-7."

I noticed in this very informative paragraph that there was a couple of important dates you didn't feel the need to put in bold:
"On 8 February 1964, funding for VAL was approved by Congress"
"On 19 March 1964, Vought received a contract from the Navy for the manufacture of the initial batch of aircraft, designated A-7."
Do you see what's significant about these dates?
It's one thing making proposals and putting in a bid.
It's a different thing getting the funding and the contracts.


"As far as your "simple" JFKA theory goes, I find it neither simple nor plausible."

You previously posted this - the Texas oilmen theory is quite plausible.
What is it you find plausible about Buchanan's JFKA theory but not about my own?
Other than your own JFKA theory can you name one as simple as the one I am proposing (if you can't just say so without the insults or CAPITAL LETTERS).

You write as though it would practically be business-as-usual for LBJ and Byrd to concoct a plot to assassinate JFK, even though the penalty would be execution.

This is a key point that I've already addressed in our previous 'discussion' about this issue.
The main reason I'm against a complex plot of any description is that the chances of it being found out and traced back to it's originators increases exponentially with added complexity and the number one goal, the very first thought of anyone involved in initiating this crime is to do with the repercussions of discovery. Unless a way can be devised that there is a cast iron guarantee that this crime can not come back to them or that, at the very least, they have 'plausible deniability' all the way, it can't go ahead.
Simplicity is key to this. The fewer the better. The assassination is necessarily lo-fi. Just a man with a rifle shooting out of a window.
On top of that is 'compartmentalization'.
LBJ and Byrd.
Byrd and Cason (no mention of LBJ)
Cason to Shelley (no mention of LBJ or Byrd)
Shelley to patsy and shooter (no mention of LBJ, Byrd or Cason).
All private, untraceable conversations. No paper trial. No recordings. All deniable if need be.

Another point worth making is that for LBJ it's the equivalent of "execution" if he doesn't take the presidency.
He will be finished personally, financially, politically and, most important of all, historically.
If JFK is not assassinated he will lose everything.

You seriously think LBJ and Byrd would trust their LIVES to Cason and a cluck like Shelley???

Shelley is only aware of Cason. LBJ and Byrd are no longer in the frame.
And you seem to have this thing about people being rewarded. Foot soldiers are never rewarded because they buy into an ideology. The only people who benefit from war are those who instigate it. Everyone else takes part because they truly believe they are doing the righteous thing.

Just a final reminder.
All of this stems from the evidence against Oswald being the man on the 6th floor.
That won't go away by wishing it away.
Your own JFKA theory can't accommodate this evidence just as it doesn't have anything like a motive.

[Lance Payette]

I realize this is becoming overkill, but when the Caped Factoid Buster busts a Factoid, it gets Busted and stays Busted. I have discovered some fascinating resource materials. I believe they pretty well drive a stake through the heart of those CTers, like Dan and Robert Morrow, who insist L-T-V was on the precipice of failure in 1963 and that Ling and Byrd, through Alpha-Omega, bought 132,000 shares of L-T-V because Byrd had plotted with LBJ to assassinate JFK and LBJ in turn had promised to rescue L-T-V from financial ruin by awarding a massive contract for the A-7 aircraft. The standard CT party line is that LBJ personally awarded the contract before Congress had even approved the funding.

As those of us in the Factoid Busting game like to say, BWAHAHA!!!

The A-7 contract award

This is the October 1964 edition of Naval Aviation News: https://www.history.navy.mil/content/dam/nhhc/research/histories/naval-aviation/Naval%20Aviation%20News/1960/pdf/oct64.pdf Two articles describe the new and innovative contracting process by which the A-7 contract was eventually awarded to L-T-V. One article notes that the assassination of JFK actually delayed the award.

More significant is this: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f6/The_A-7_attack_aircraft_contract_history_emphasizing_the_Navy_business_clearance_process._%28IA_a7attackaircraft00gate%29.pdf It is a 160-page scholarly thesis written in 1973 by a Naval Lieutenant in fulfillment of the Master of Science in Management degree from the Naval Postgraduate School. It is entitled "The A-7 Attack Aircraft: Contract History Emphasizing the Navy Business Clearance Process." It is a fantastically detailed case study of the competition for the A-7 and the ultimate award to L-T-V.

It's pretty clear LBJ had no role in this long and exhaustive process. He did not award the contract to L-T-V as payment to Byrd for Byrd's role in the JFKA.

Oh, the fabulous profitability, you ask? The Naval Lieutenant's thesis notes that L-T-V's business was so diverse that it is impossible to say whether L-T-V  profited at all from the A-7 contract. (Somewhat interestingly, the paper does show L-T-V's earnings per share from 1962 through 1969. There would appear to be no bombshells: 1962 $3.05; 1963 $2.12; 1964 $2.32; 1965 $1.18; 1966 $1.60; 1967 $1.57; 1968 $2.29; 1969 $4.24.)

Far from being a sweetheart deal, the A-7 contract was a financially risky (for L-T-V) and unprecedented fixed-price contract: "Wary from previous experiences with contractors incurring huge cost escalations and delays in aircraft development, the Navy imposed strict penalties on any conditions that could not be met. As a result, the contract was the only true fixed-price contract ever issued for a major weapon system. Each A-7A cost a little over one million dollars, which was an impressive bargain even in the 1960s. Some of the penalties that might be paid to the Navy if the targets were not met were $50,000 per day per aircraft for each day inspection trials were delayed, $750,000 if the weight target was missed and another $750,000 if the maintenance requirements were not met. The only requirement LTV missed was the weight limit, by 270 kg (600 lb). LTV had to pay the fine, but the design team, headed by Sol Love, decided that the extra weight was essential in order to strengthen the wing, allowing the A-7 to carry more weaponry. This turned out to be cheaper in the long run as later modifications to the wing were not needed." https://www.aircraftinformation.info/art_A7.htm#google_vignette

L-T-V in 1963 and thereafter

As previously stated, L-T-V, far from about to collapse, was on the upswing. In 1961, Ling had been forced out of his role as Chairman by bankers who feared he was too much of a wheeler-dealer; Robert McCulloch became CEO. In October of 1963, just about the time of the "suspicious" 132,000 shares being acquired, shareholders questioned L-T-V's profitability and Ling returned as Chairman. Ling-Temco's hostile takeover of Vought in 1961 had been challenged by the USDOJ under the antitrust laws. The case actually went to trial, and L-T-V was fresh off a victory in 1963.

After Ling's return as Chairman in October of 1963, he quickly embarked on what he called Project Redeployment, which was fabulously successful. "From the outset, Ling did not hesitate to initiate his own policies and mold the company to his own vision.  Ling plunged head first into his new leadership position by addressing LTV’s long term debt obligations.  In the fall of 1963 LTV had a substantial long term debt obligation hovering around $61 million.  Ling’s plan called for the company to pay back almost half of its long term debt, approximately $27 million, leaving the company with a remaining long term debt obligation of approximately $34 million. James Ling understood early in his reign that extensive debt was not compatible with his growth strategy.  In Ling’s view, a heavy debt burden made the company less attractive to the banking community, which in turn, limited LTV’s ability to raise the capital needed to execute Ling’s business model, a model that LTV would significantly profit by from 1964 to 1969." https://etd.ohiolink.edu/acprod/odb_etd/ws/send_file/send?accession=ysu1317059375&disposition=inline ("A Fight for What Was Earned: Solidarity USA, Corporate Bankruptcy and the Fight for the American Dream in the post-World War II Era" (2011 Master's thesis)).

Similarly (from the entry on Ling at encyclopedia.com): "Ling then moved to reorganize his corporate behemoth. Calling his plan Project Redeployment, Ling attempted to sell, streamline, or restructure debt in the disparate parts of the vast empire. Ling's complicated stock deals and management reorganizations confused some but allowed Ling the opportunity to initiate Project Touchdown: the ambitious takeover of Wilson and Company. In 1967 Wilson was worth about a billion dollars, more than twice as much as LTV as a whole. But the corporation was undervalued, and Ling raised $80 million from investors in Europe and the United States. With that cash Ling bought control of Wilson and then acquired the rest of the company in a huge stock swap. He split Wilson into the meatpacking section (which investors dubbed 'Meat Ball'), the sporting goods section ('Golf Ball'), and the pharmaceuticals section ('Goof Ball'), which together received around $250 million in increased market valuation from public investment." https://www.encyclopedia.com/humanities/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/ling-james-joseph#:~:text=Ling's%20complicated%20stock%20deals%20and,as%20LTV%20as%20a%20whole.

As I previously stated, Ling's modus operandi was a complex shell game of stock transfers and exchanges, to wit:

"Throughout the 1960s Ling implemented his own unique approach to running LTV.  Helping to pioneer the growth of corporate conglomerates in the post-war era, James Ling implemented what he called ‘…a new breed of conglomerate.’ Ling’s strategy revolved around the ability to borrow vast sums of money, which in turn enabled LTV to purchase a majority stake in a company’s stock.  Once LTV controlled a majority of a company’s stock, it would then make an offer to buy out the rest of the outstanding stock thereby officially absorbing the company under the LTV umbrella.  After LTV had official control of the purchased company they designated the newly purchased company as an independent subsidiary of LTV, and subsequently, issued 20 to 30 percent of the new subsidiary’s stock for purchase.  This ensured that LTV controlled the remaining 70 to 80 percent of the new subsidiary’s stock.  By doing this the stock value of the new subsidiary would rise and the majority holder of the newly issued stock, in this case LTV, profited immensely.  LTV’s increased capital generated by this scheme was then used as collateral enabling LTV to secure larger loans for more acquisitions.  In essence, every time James Ling and LTV purchased a new subsidiary, the profits generated from the purchase enabled the company to expand rapidly in both size and profits." https://etd.ohiolink.edu/acprod/odb_etd/ws/send_file/send?accession=ysu1317059375&disposition=inline

In short:

L-T-V was not on the edge of financial ruin or even in a financially precarious position in the fall of 1963;

When the 132,000 shares were acquired by Alpha-Omega, Ling had just returned as Chairman and aggressively taken back the reins of L-T-V;

At exactly the same time, Vought had ceased to exist as a corporation and was blended into other L-T-V operations;

At exactly the same time, Ling embarked on Project Redeployment, involving complex stock transfers and exchanges;

The A-7 contract was the result of a long, competitive Navy process and was largely in place before the JFKA;

LBJ played no role in the award of the A-7 contract to L-T-V;

While undoubtedly profitable over the ensuing ten or so years, the A-7 contract was not transformative for L-T-V by any means;

There is utterly no reason to view Alpha-Omega's acquisition of 132,000 shares in November of 1963 or shortly before as suspicious or as having any connection whatsoever with the JFKA; this is simply unwarranted, all-too-typical Gee Whiz Factoid Believer speculation.

But, hey, don't let me spoil your Factoid Fun. If you wish to believe LBJ and Byrd hatched a plot to put their lives in the hands of Cason (giggle), Shelley (giggle, giggle) and some unknown sniper (BWAHAHA), go for it!

As ever, I remain,
The Caped Factoid Buster

[Dan O'meara]

It is immensely disappointing that the discussion has barely begun and Lance aka The Caped Factoid Buster aka The Giggler is already resorting to that most tried and trusted LNer strategy - The Strawman Argument 
How tedious.

I believe they pretty well drive a stake through the heart of those CTers, like Dan and Robert Morrow, who insist L-T-V was on the precipice of failure in 1963

As previously stated, L-T-V, far from about to collapse

L-T-V was not on the edge of financial ruin or even in a financially precarious position in the fall of 1963;

The falsehood being promoted by The Giggler is that I have argued LTV was "about to collapse" when Byrd bought his shares. This seems to be the position of Joan Mellon but it is something I disagree with.
I made this clear when I posted the following:

Firstly, I agree that Mellon's assessment of LTV being on the verge of bankruptcy is way off the mark.

Unfortunately for Lance he has run out of decent arguments so has to resort to this sad tactic. He presents an argument I've not made, then attempts to destroy this made up argument to make it look like he's 'winning'. It is such a distasteful LNer trait.

Lance - let's have a discussion/debate about this topic without turning into a point scoring competition. Just two people having a rational discussion

The real irony here is that the Caped Factoid Buster is busting factoids that he has introduced to the discussion in the form of the thesis by Robert Van Ling (any relation, I wonder).

Factoid #1  By Dec 31, 1961, LTV were saddled with a debt of $112 million. A quite staggering amount of debt.

Factoid #2 The management of LTV were quoted as saying that "it would take the rest of their corporate productive lives to pay off the enormous debt".

Factoid #3 During '62 and '63 LTV 'streamlined' in an attepmt to get the "enormous debt" under control - "LTV sold four divisions or subsidiaries for approximately $28 million...LTV streamlined its organizational structure from twenty divisions to eleven divisions".

Factoid #4 On top of the streamlining " LTV initiated a high degree of centralized management control and cost control programs."

These are the factoids that Lance introduced and that he is now busy busting!!
This is the backdrop against which Byrd bought his shares - crippling debt, dumping assets and "cost control programs". But that's not according to me - that's according to The Giggler!!

Just to add to this backdrop.
In an article entitled, "LBJ Cronies D.H. Byrd and James Ling Bought 132,000 Shares of Stock in Defense Contractor LTV in November 1963 Around Time of the JFK Assassination", Jeremy Kuzmarov writes:

"The buys occurred at a time when LTV stock was heading downward in the face of antitrust litigation. Furthermore, Defense Secretary Robert McNamara said to brace for cuts in the defense industry and the business press was writing bearish articles on the prospects for defense stocks as the year 1963 was coming to a close."

He supports this claim about the antitrust litigation with the following footnote:

Byrd, I’m an Endangered Species, 69. Byrd says he absorbed a loss of $15 million because of the antitrust litigation

I will have to look into this antitrust litigation a bit more. I see that you mention it in your post:

"Ling-Temco's hostile takeover of Vought in 1961 had been challenged by the USDOJ under the antitrust laws. The case actually went to trial, and L-T-V was fresh off a victory in 1963."

One question, Lance:
What was it about Buchanan's theory that you found plausible?

[John Iacoletti]

Oswald comes out of the building shortly after the shooting and sees this absolute chaos outside. People yelling and screaming, police officers with their guns drawn, spectators running, some throwing themselves on the ground. It's complete madness.

Does he ask about what happened? Stay and talk to Frazier or anyone else? This isn't small talk about the weather or the Cowboys. It's about this chaos going on as he watches. What's happening? He's a political person, is he not interested in what happened to the president? No, he walks seven blocks up the street and catches a bus. There was a bus stop on the corner of Houston and Elm that he could have used. But he decided otherwise. Does he talk to anyone about the event? There is no evidence that he does. He goes to his room where his landlady is watching the news. Does he stop to watch it? No, he rushes by then is out on the street. Not a care at all about the event.

At no time after the shooting does he show the slightest interest in what happened right outside the building where he worked.

If you don't find that evidence - not proof - but evidence of flight then you simply don't want to see it.

You simply don't want to see your own confirmation bias.

Oswald did not hang around and gossip with his coworkers.  About anything.  Ever.