A hole in Bledsoe's story?

[Zeon Mason]

Was Oswald wearing the brown shirt when he got into the car with B.W. Frazier that morning of Nov/22/63?
Or was he wearing the other reddish brown shirt?
If the latter, then Bledsoe could not have seen any hole in the sleeve of the reddish brown shirt.
Was Oswald wearing a jacket when he boarded the bus? ( or was that some other man that McWatters saw?)
If yes, how could Bledsoe have seen a hole in the shirt sleeve? It would have to a be peculiar way of Oswald having pulled up his jacket sleeve halfway up his arm while leaving the shirt sleeve down to his wrist.

So imo , The bus transfer ticket is the only evidence that links Oswald to McWatters bus.

Could the ticket have been planted after Oswald was arrested?

If yes then the reason was to establish Oswald on the bus by 12:43  in order  to negate Butch Burroughs and Jack Davis statements placing Oswald in the theater at 1:15 and 1:20 respectively.

Without the bus trip, Oswald could get to Whaleys taxi as early as 12:40 ,  get to his boarding house by 12:50 and exit at 12:54 thus he was  able to have walked to the theater arriving by 1:15.

However, Oswald could not  have  shot  Tippit even as early as 1:08 and then still made it to the theater by 1:15 ( unless he was given a ride)

[Martin Weidmann]

It's your thread, that you started with a plethora of mistakes and wrong assumptions which BTW you never acknowledged, and now it's my problem? Seriously?

Whew, at least you got something right!

The authorities were in the process of accumulating an excess of evidence to determine Oswald's flight from the scene of his crime.

Apparently not? Besides this clear diversion and the facts that I have already stated, please explain to me why you believe Oswald wearing the brown shirt on the bus was so important?

JohnM

It's your thread, that you started with a plethora of mistakes and wrong assumptions which BTW you never acknowledged, and now it's my problem? Seriously?

I just asked a question. Stop being a drama queen!

But since you brought it up, how does showing a part of Bledsoe's testimony and two photos become "a plethora of mistakes and wrong assumptions"?

And no, it became your problem when you decided to join the conversation making all sorts of idiotic remarks that served no purpose at all.

The authorities were in the process of accumulating an excess of evidence to determine Oswald's flight from the scene of his crime.

Could you write this in Chinese? Perhaps I will then understand this gobbledigook.

Apparently not? Besides this clear diversion and the facts that I have already stated, please explain to me why you believe Oswald wearing the brown shirt on the bus was so important?

So, you can't answer my question? Got it!

[John Mytton]

Was Oswald wearing the brown shirt when he got into the car with B.W. Frazier that morning of Nov/22/63?
Or was he wearing the other reddish brown shirt?
If the latter, then Bledsoe could not have seen any hole in the sleeve of the reddish brown shirt.
Was Oswald wearing a jacket when he boarded the bus? ( or was that some other man that McWatters saw?)
If yes, how could Bledsoe have seen a hole in the shirt sleeve? It would have to a be peculiar way of Oswald having pulled up his jacket sleeve halfway up his arm while leaving the shirt sleeve down to his wrist.

So imo , The bus transfer ticket is the only evidence that links Oswald to McWatters bus.

Could the ticket have been planted after Oswald was arrested?

If yes then the reason was to establish Oswald on the bus by 12:43  in order  to negate Butch Burroughs and Jack Davis statements placing Oswald in the theater at 1:15 and 1:20 respectively.

Without the bus trip, Oswald could get to Whaleys taxi as early as 12:40 ,  get to his boarding house by 12:50 and exit at 12:54 thus he was  able to have walked to the theater arriving by 1:15.

However, Oswald could not  have  shot  Tippit even as early as 1:08 and then still made it to the theater by 1:15 ( unless he was given a ride)

So imo , The bus transfer ticket is the only evidence that links Oswald to McWatters bus.

Hi Zeon, the bus transfer all by itself is conclusive evidence, but we also have Oswald admitting to catching a bus to Bookout, Hosty and Fritz and also Bledsoe's next day affidavit and the later corroboration with McWatters that Bledsoe was on McWatters bus at the same time as Oswald.

Mr. STERN - Yes. Did he ever complain that, "We have been over that ground before," or make any such statement?
Mr. BOOKHOUT - No; I don't recall anything along that line, but I can recall one subject matter probably in the first interview where he talked about his method of transportation after leaving the Texas Book Depository, having gotten on a bus, and then that subject was taken up again, as I recall, in the second interview, expressed the same answer at that time, and then subsequently to that interview he backed up and said that it wasn't actually true as to how he got home. That he had taken a bus, and due to the traffic jam he had left the bus and got a taxicab, by which means he actually arrived at his residence.

Mr HOSTY - ..........He was asked why he left the School Book Depository that day, and he stated that in all the confusion he was certain that there would be no more work for the rest of the day, that everybody was too upset, there was too much confusion, so he just decided that there would be no work for the rest of the day and so he went home. He got on a bus and went home.

Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. He told me he went over and caught a bus and rode the bus to North Beckley near where he lived and went by home and changed clothes and got his pistol and went to the show. I asked him why he took his pistol and he said, "Well, you know about a pistol; I just carried it." Let's see if I asked him anything else right that minute. That is just about it.

In Bledsoe's testimony she goes into detail about a woman who also got off at the same time as Oswald who wanted to get to the train station which along with specific details in Bledsoe's next day affidavit can be confirmed by cross referencing with Bus Driver McWatters testimony. Also note McWatters agrees with Bledsoe that the man who got the transfer got off after a few blocks and that some guy who was also stuck in traffic came to the bus door and said the President was shot.
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/bledsoe.htm
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/bledsoe1.htm
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/mcwatters.htm

McWatters had a unique punch he used to indicate the bus transfer times which was identical with the punch holes in Oswald's bus transfer.



BTW the transfer was not pristine.



JohnM

[John Mytton]

It's your thread, that you started with a plethora of mistakes and wrong assumptions which BTW you never acknowledged, and now it's my problem? Seriously?

I just asked a question. Stop being a drama queen!

But since you brought it up, how does showing a part of Bledsoe's testimony and two photos become "a plethora of mistakes and wrong assumptions"?

And no, it became your problem when you decided to join the conversation making all sorts of idiotic remarks that served no purpose at all.

The authorities were in the process of accumulating an excess of evidence to determine Oswald's flight from the scene of his crime.

Could you write this in Chinese? Perhaps I will then understand this gobbledigook.

Apparently not? Besides this clear diversion and the facts that I have already stated, please explain to me why you believe Oswald wearing the brown shirt on the bus was so important?

So, you can't answer my question? Got it!

And no, it became your problem when you decided to join the conversation making all sorts of idiotic remarks that served no purpose at all.

I only added clarity to your clear misinformation.

In your OP you inferred that the shirt didn't have a hole, you were wrong!
You posted a photo of what was supposed to be the "shirt" with the manufactures label, you were wrong!
You posted Oswald's brown shirt asking where was the hole but you posted the wrong side, you were wrong!
In every subsequent post you are yet to acknowledge or even attempt to correct your OP, and that's naughty!

So, you can't answer my question? Got it!

And here we go again when you're clearly stuck, more Martin games.

JohnM

[Martin Weidmann]

I only added clarity to your clear misinformation.

In your OP you inferred that the shirt didn't have a hole, you were wrong!
You posted a photo of what was supposed to be the "shirt" with the manufactures label, you were wrong!
You posted Oswald's brown shirt asking where was the hole but you posted the wrong side, you were wrong!
In every subsequent post you are yet to acknowledge or even attempt to correct your OP, and that's naughty!

And here we go again when you're clearly stuck, more Martin games.

JohnM

You are not very good at this game, John. Try another hobby!

[Dan O'meara]

Why did Sorrels take the shirt out to Bledsoe?

What is your source that Sorrels took the shirt out to Bledsoe? Just Bledsoe's testimony? Or is there something else that corroborates it?

I'm possibly conflating these two pieces of testimony, one where Bledsoe insists a Secret Service agent brought the shirt out to the house and the other about Sorrels being out at the house. I'm not 100% sure whether Sorrels had the shirt with him when he visited Bledsoe's house.
If Bledsoe was wrong about a Secret Service man bringing it out I'm surprised her attorney, Miss Douthit, doesn't correct her as she seems quite on top of things. On the other hand, Bledsoe seems to think anyone in a suit is Secret Service.

Mr. BALL: But, before you go into that, I notice you have been reading from some notes before you.

Mrs. BLEDSOE: Well, because I forget what I have to say.

Mr. BALL: When did you make those notes?

Mrs. BLEDSOE: What day did I make them?

Miss DOUTHIT: When Mr. Sorrels and I were talking about her going to Washington, he made the suggestion that she put all the things down on paper because she might forget something, and I said, "Mary, you put everything on a piece of paper so that you can remember it and you won't forget anything, you know, what happened," and that's when she started making notes.

Mr. BALL: You have made the notes in the last week?

Mrs. BLEDSOE: Yes.

Miss DOUTHIT: At my suggestion and Mr. Sorrels.

...

Mr. BALL: Who had it out there?

Mrs. BLEDSOE: Some Secret Service man.

Mr. BALL: He brought it out. Now, I am---you have seen this shirt then before?

Mrs. BLEDSOE: Yes.

Mr. BALL: It was brought out by the Secret Service man and shown to you?

Mrs. BLEDSOE: Yes.

Personally,I don't think there's anything 'conspiratorial' about this shirt issue, it's more just an interest in how the investigation operated. You don't seem to think it's weird that investigating authorities, be it Secret Service or FBI, went out to her house with a piece of evidence. As Martin points out, it has clearly affected Bledsoe's remembering of the incident on the bus and may indicate some kind of coercion as the dark brown shirt Bledsoe identifies may well not have been the shirt Oswald wore to work that day.
For me it's hard to know whether Bledsoe confirms that Oswald was wearing the same shirt to work he was arrested in, or whether she 'remembered' the shirt due to someone coming out to the house and saying something along the lines of "this is the shirt Oswald was wearing when you saw him".
It really muddies the waters if it was the FBI looking for confirmation of the fibre evidence they had discovered.

[Charles Collins]

I'm possibly conflating these two pieces of testimony, one where Bledsoe insists a Secret Service agent brought the shirt out to the house and the other about Sorrels being out at the house. I'm not 100% sure whether Sorrels had the shirt with him when he visited Bledsoe's house.
If Bledsoe was wrong about a Secret Service man bringing it out I'm surprised her attorney, Miss Douthit, doesn't correct her as she seems quite on top of things. On the other hand, Bledsoe seems to think anyone in a suit is Secret Service.

Mr. BALL: But, before you go into that, I notice you have been reading from some notes before you.

Mrs. BLEDSOE: Well, because I forget what I have to say.

Mr. BALL: When did you make those notes?

Mrs. BLEDSOE: What day did I make them?

Miss DOUTHIT: When Mr. Sorrels and I were talking about her going to Washington, he made the suggestion that she put all the things down on paper because she might forget something, and I said, "Mary, you put everything on a piece of paper so that you can remember it and you won't forget anything, you know, what happened," and that's when she started making notes.

Mr. BALL: You have made the notes in the last week?

Mrs. BLEDSOE: Yes.

Miss DOUTHIT: At my suggestion and Mr. Sorrels.

...

Mr. BALL: Who had it out there?

Mrs. BLEDSOE: Some Secret Service man.

Mr. BALL: He brought it out. Now, I am---you have seen this shirt then before?

Mrs. BLEDSOE: Yes.

Mr. BALL: It was brought out by the Secret Service man and shown to you?

Mrs. BLEDSOE: Yes.

Personally,I don't think there's anything 'conspiratorial' about this shirt issue, it's more just an interest in how the investigation operated. You don't seem to think it's weird that investigating authorities, be it Secret Service or FBI, went out to her house with a piece of evidence. As Martin points out, it has clearly affected Bledsoe's remembering of the incident on the bus and may indicate some kind of coercion as the dark brown shirt Bledsoe identifies may well not have been the shirt Oswald wore to work that day.
For me it's hard to know whether Bledsoe confirms that Oswald was wearing the same shirt to work he was arrested in, or whether she 'remembered' the shirt due to someone coming out to the house and saying something along the lines of "this is the shirt Oswald was wearing when you saw him".
It really muddies the waters if it was the FBI looking for confirmation of the fibre evidence they had discovered.

You don't seem to think it's weird that investigating authorities, be it Secret Service or FBI, went out to her house with a piece of evidence.

No I don’t think that its weird at all. Especially when we consider that the FBI had been ordered by LBJ to investigate the facts; that the Warren Commission had only been created a few days prior to 12/4/63 (the date of the FBI report that indicates two FBI agents showed the shirt to Bledsoe); and that the Warren Commission had not even had their first formal meeting or even decided how to organize themselves yet. Keep in mind that LHO was already dead, and that there could therefore be no trial. When put into the above specified context, the FBI agents showing Bledsoe the shirt appears to me to be within the bounds of the law and a perfectly legitimate way to determine whether or not Bledsoe would recognize the shirt. The FBI agents at Bledsoe’s house had no way of knowing what direction the Warren Commission would ultimately go with their investigation. I think that they were simply doing what they were instructed to do.

The whole idea of “muddying up the water” and implying something sinister is simply biased distrust of the authorities and makes no sense whatsoever.

[Martin Weidmann]

You don't seem to think it's weird that investigating authorities, be it Secret Service or FBI, went out to her house with a piece of evidence.

No I don’t think that its weird at all. Especially when we consider that the FBI had been ordered by LBJ to investigate the facts; that the Warren Commission had only been created a few days prior to 12/4/63 (the date of the FBI report that indicates two FBI agents showed the shirt to Bledsoe); and that the Warren Commission had not even had their first formal meeting or even decided how to organize themselves yet. Keep in mind that LHO was already dead, and that there could therefore be no trial. When put into the above specified context, the FBI agents showing Bledsoe the shirt appears to me to be within the bounds of the law and a perfectly legitimate way to determine whether or not Bledsoe would recognize the shirt. The FBI agents at Bledsoe’s house had no way of knowing what direction the Warren Commission would ultimately go with their investigation. I think that they were simply doing what they were instructed to do.

The whole idea of “muddying up the water” and implying something sinister is simply biased distrust of the authorities and makes no sense whatsoever.

No I don’t think that its weird at all.

If it is indeed not weird, can you name one other instance where the FBI or the Secret Service took a piece of evidence to a witness' house?