Oswald's 1959 passport application - explain this please, if you can

[Tom Graves]

Would what Oswald did have made sense if the CIA were under the control of the KGB?

The CIA was under the control of the KGB in the sense that the father-figure-requiring Chief of Counterintelligence, James Angleton, was manipulated by a probable KGB "mole" (Bruce Leonard Solie) who was aided by other probable KGB "moles" (e.g., George Kisevalter).

What did Oswald do?

He starts teaching himself Russian while still in the Marines.

He gets out of active duty several months early.

He goes to Moscow.

He walks into the American Embassy and tells the probably-expecting-him Consul (and probable CIA agent) Snyder and the KGB's hidden microphones that he's going to tell the Soviets about Marine Corps radar and what he knows about the U-2.

He lives two blocks from a KGB school in Minsk for two-plus years.

He marries a former KGB "swallow" and probable KGB informant.

He returns to the U.S. with his wife and young daughter.

He starts his own chapter of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee.

With or without encouragement or logistical support of the KGB, he tries to kill Edwin Walker.

He tries to visit Cuba and ostensibly move back to the USSR.

With or without the encouragement or logistical support of the KGB, he kills JFK.

[Lance Payette]

What did Oswald do?

Hello? He did what I have already described him as doing in 5,000 bloated words in this thread. I sort of assumed that's what you were responding to.

Now that I think about it, why didn't Oswald, regardless of whether he was acting alone or at the instigation of the CIA or KGB, simply appear at the Soviet Consulate in Helsinki and tell Golub he wanted to defect? Why go through the tourist visa charade? I suppose he might've felt more confident once he was actually in Moscow. Or perhaps he actually did tell Golub this and Golub said "Oh, geez, kid, don't put me in that spot. Take a tourist visa and do your defecting in Moscow."

[Tom Graves]

I've edited this post some:

The CIA was under the control of the KGB in the sense that the father-figure-requiring Chief of Counterintelligence, James Angleton, was manipulated by a probable KGB "mole" (Bruce Leonard Solie) who was aided by other probable KGB "moles" (e.g., George Kisevalter).

What did Oswald do?

He starts teaching himself Russian while still in the Marines.

He gets out of active duty several months early.

He goes to Moscow via probably-expecting-him Golub in Helsinki.

He walks into the American Embassy and tells the probably-expecting-him Consul (and probable CIA agent) Snyder and the KGB's hidden microphones that he's going to tell the Soviets about Marine Corps radar and what he knows about the U-2.

He works in a radio factory and lives comfortably two blocks from a KGB school in Minsk for two-plus years.

He marries a former KGB "swallow" and probable KGB informant.

He returns to the U.S. with his wife and young daughter.

He starts his own chapter of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee.

With or without encouragement or logistical support of the KGB, he tries to kill Edwin Walker.

He tries to visit Cuba and ostensibly move back to the USSR.

With or without the encouragement or logistical support of the KGB, he kills JFK.

[Lance Payette]

The CIA was under the control of the KGB in the sense that the father-figure-requiring Chief of Counterintelligence, James Angleton, was manipulated by a probable KGB "mole" (Bruce Leonard Solie) who was aided by other probable KGB "moles" (e.g., George Kisevalter).

What did Oswald do?

Well, OK, but little if any of this is relevant to the specific issues I raised in this thread.

He starts teaching himself Russian while still in the Marines.

I'm not sure that's true in terms of the Marines being where he started. He had a longstanding interest and was receiving Russian newspapers and magazines, so trying to learn Russian isn't too mysterious. In the ASC application, he optimistically described himself as having the proficiency of one year of schooling, and the Marine test he took not long before defecting rated his Russian as poor. Sure, trying to learn some Russian is consistent with a plan to defect, but not inevitably so and I don't see his efforts as particularly mysterious.

He gets out of active duty several months early.

OK, why? What was the necessity? Why add that complexity instead of just wafting a few months to fulfill his enlistment? Perhaps he was just fed up with the Marines. What I see from many CTers is an ad hoc, after-the-fact overlay of mystery and intrigue on actions that to me look no more mysterious than simply Oswald Being Oswald.

He goes to Moscow.

He walks into the American Embassy and tells the probably-expecting-him Consul (and probable CIA agent) Snyder and the KGB's hidden microphones that he's going to tell the Soviets about Marine Corps radar and what he knows about the U-2.

He lives two blocks from a KGB school in Minsk for two-plus years.

He marries a former KGB "swallow" and probable KGB informant.

He returns to the U.S. with his wife and young daughter.

He starts his own chapter of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee.

With or without encouragement or logistical support of the KGB, he tries to kill Edwin Walker.

He tries to visit Cuba and ostensibly move back to the USSR.

With or without the encouragement or logistical support of the KGB, he kills JFK.

This is all way beyond the scope of my posts. I do have my own views of all of it, all them consistent with Oswald Being Oswald.

FWIW, I've been to Oswald's apartment (not in it). I've been to the big yellow KGB building (not in it) and photographed it. "Two blocks" is a bit misleading. Oswald's apartment is separated from the big theater in Minsk (I've attended the ballet there twice) by a park, and the theater is separated by a river from the business district where the KGB building is located. To suggest he was popping in and out of some "KGB school" is misleading. My wife lived in Minsk as a municipal administrator for decades, and she says no one had any idea what went on in the KGB building nor did she ever hear it described as a school.

[Tom Graves]

Little if any of this is relevant to the specific issues I raised in this thread.

In that case, I'll start a new thread for your enlightenment.

[John Iacoletti]

Addendum:

The State Department report, https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/finding-aids/mosk-59167870.pdf, states that LHO's passport was issued "routinely" on September 10.

"THAT CRAZY APPLICATION WAS PROCESSED ROUTINELY???!!!" you scream. Well, yes.

"HIGHLY SUSPICIOUS!!!" you scream. Well, no.

The procedures attached to the report explain that the local Passport Agency simply determined whether the applicant was a U.S. citizen. If so, the applicant's name and date and place of birth were sent by wire to the Passport Office in Washington. The Passport Office determined whether the applicant was in a "lookout file," more than 90% of whom were people who had lost their citizenship. If not, the passport was issued "routinely" even if the contents of the application might seem Rather Goofy.

This is what's known as special pleading.  If it's not suspicious for a real defector to put "goofy" things in an application then it's also not suspicious for a false defector either.

[Lance Payette]

This is what's known as special pleading.  If it's not suspicious for a real defector to put "goofy" things in an application then it's also not suspicious for a false defector either.

You'd have to explain your logic more fully. Oswald had a long history of lying when it wasn't necessary, doing seemingly inexplicable things and doing other things just for their shock value. This is what I mean by Oswald being Oswald on his passport application. It would be exceedingly unlikely, it seems to me, for a Cold War defector being guided by an intelligence agency to list on his passport application, for absolutely no reason, the Russia to which he would be defecting and Cuba as well. Why would he do this, or be allowed by the intelligence agency to do this, and how could he be sure it wouldn't raise red flags (no pun intended) in the processing of his application? Perhaps you're suggesting he would do something so unlikely and risky just to show he wasn't a false defector because no real false defector would do that? Well ...

[John Iacoletti]

You'd have to explain your logic more fully. Oswald had a long history of lying when it wasn't necessary, doing seemingly inexplicable things and doing other things just for their shock value. This is what I mean by Oswald being Oswald on his passport application. It would be exceedingly unlikely, it seems to me, for a Cold War defector being guided by an intelligence agency to list on his passport application, for absolutely no reason, the Russia to which he would be defecting and Cuba as well. Why would he do this, or be allowed by the intelligence agency to do this, and how could he be sure it wouldn't raise red flags (no pun intended) in the processing of his application? Perhaps you're suggesting he would do something so unlikely and risky just to show he wasn't a false defector because no real false defector would do that? Well ...

Well, it didn't "raise any red flags" anyway (or so they tell us), so what difference does it make?  If he was guided by "intelligence agencies", wouldn't it be those same intelligence agencies who would be looking for red flags?  I'm not sure how anybody could know what a "real false defector" would or would not do.

By the way, feel free to give specific, confirmable examples of Oswald's "long history of lying when it wasn't necessary".