The Warren Commission Sham

[Dan O'meara]

Oswald may have been fooled by whom into handing his short-rifle over to them? -- By one of your two conspirators? Can you imagine a plausible scenario in which that occurred?

Handed it over when? That morning?

Oswald may have been ordered to hand his short-rifle over to them? By one of your two conspirators that morning?

Oswald may have handed his short-rifle over willingly to one of your two conspirators? Does that sound like something Oswald would do?

The point I'm making is that because there is a conspiracy Oswald is not bound to bring his rifle in on the morning of the assassination as he is in your theory.
There is no need for him to unnecessarily disassemble the rifle (something that anyone who knew anything about rifles would avoid at all costs).
Your own theory is full of holes and conjecture surrounding these points - when did Oswald assemble the rifle? When did he make the long paper sack? Why did he disassemble the rifle?
All JFKA theories are full of conjecture and speculation and yours is no different.
For aspects of the case for which there is no evidence there can only be speculation.
Oswald believed he was involved in something really serious, his actions before and after the assassination reveal that, but I don't believe he knew it was the assassination of JFK not when there were targets like LBJ or John Connally in the motorcade.

What's your definition of "investigation"?

The forensic examination and recording of a crime scene including the recorded collection of any relevant evidence.
What do you think I mean?
What's your definition of an "investigation"?
The point is there was no initial forensic examination of the limo which was part of the crime scene.
Are you satisfied with the explanation that an unnamed Secret Service agent handed over two fragments to the Deputy Chief?

If they lied, doesn't that make them conspirators?

Not necessarily.

Do you think the FBI conspired in the "patsy-ing," the shooting, or the cover up?

They didn't conspire in the patsy-ing or shooting.
As for a cover up...it's actually a difficult question to answer.
If Hoover insisted that the evidence had to show that Oswald was the lone assassin are they covering up or just following orders.

If your two conspirators had nothing to do with CE-399, who created it, how did they create it with such unusual damage (none to the nose, but flattened in the rear and lead core extruded out its base), and who "planted" it?

It wasn't planted.
It miraculously appeared in the chain of custody as if out of thin air. Don't you think that's unusual?
Don't you think it's unusual that Tomlinson, Wright, Johnsen and Rowley all refused to ID CE399 as the bullet they handled that day?
Or that none of them were brought before the WC to identify it?
Or that it was entered into evidence without any vouching that it was the bullet found at Parkland?
Or that Wright categorically denied CE399 was the bullet found at Parkland.

During ballistic testing, bullets were fired into goat ribs and created very similar damage to that seen on CE399.
Who created CE399? You would have to ask Elmer Todd as he seems to be the person who first handled CE399.

[Dan O'meara]

Tom wasn't asking you to do so, but you never flesh out your conspiracy theory sufficiently to expose how complex, unlikely and silly it is. Sure, LBJ and Byrd hatched the plot, Byrd recruited Cason without telling him of LBJ's involvement, Cason recruited Shelley without telling him of LBJ's or Byrd's involvement, Shelley recruited a TSBD employee without telling him of LBJ's, Byrd's or Cason's involvement, and poor Oswald thought it was just another day at work. Simple, uncomplicated, no problem.

We'll start at the bottom: "An employee" of the TSBD does the shooting. This employee, according to what you have suggested, is recruited by Bill Shelley. Is any known employee of the TSBD a plausible recruit? Who? On what basis? How is this employee convinced by Bill Shelley to shoot the President of the United States? What is offered to this employee for these remarkable services? Is there any evidence that this employee subsequently came into great wealth or otherwise benefitted to an extent commensurate with the unbelievable risks he took? Did this employee die a mysterious death almost immediately after the assassination or was he allowed to walk around as a ticking time bomb for years?

Who had control of Oswald while the gunman employee was doing the shooting? It obviously wasn't Shelley. Was there no control of Oswald at all - what sense would that make? How did Oswald manage to walk out of the building? Why did he walk out of the building, go home and get his pistol and all the rest? Why didn't he cooperate with the authorities once he was in custody?

How did Oswald's rifle get into the building? Did Shelley sneak into Ruth Paine's garage? Was it just pure happenstance that Oswald picked the night before the assassination to go to Ruth's for curtain rods, left the light on in the garage, and left Marina with a large amount of cash and his wedding ring?

Shelley, we are told, was recruited by TSBD President Jack Cason. How and why? What would have made Shelley amenable to participating in a plot to assassinate the President of the United States? He spent his entire working life, 40 years, at the TSBD - is there any evidence he subsequently came into great wealth or otherwise benefitted to an extent commensurate with the unbelievable risks he took? He lived until 1996 - no one had any concern he might crack?

If Shelley recruited the assassin and presumably made at least minimal arrangements for the control of Oswald, how do we explain his actions during the motorcade and after the shots were fired? He just stood on the TSBD steps, walked down toward the railroad tracks with Lovelady, etc. - really? He offered nothing incriminating about his chosen patsy, no ironclad alibi for the gunman he had recruited - really? He wasn't even bright enough to clean up those incriminating chicken bones in the sniper's nest (BWAHAHA).

Cason was home eating lunch when the assassination happened. What would have made Byrd think Cason would be amenable to participating in a plot to assassinate the POTUS? What did the wealthy Byrd promise Cason? Is there any evidence Cason came into great wealth or otherwise benefitted from the unbelievable risks he took? Why would Cason have thought of recruiting Shelley and why would he have trusted him? He lived until 1985 - no one had any concern he might crack?

Cason was recruited by the very wealthy David Harold Byrd. Why would Byrd have entrusted Cason with a plot that would get them both executed if discovered? Why would Byrd have trusted Cason to recruit Shelley and Shelley to recruit some TSBD employee?

Byrd, you say, either hatched the plot and sold it to LBJ or vice versa. How would this have worked? LBJ was going to trust his life to Byrd, Cason, Shelley and some TSBD employee - really? You can talk about "compartmentalization" all you want, but if this went wrong at the Shelley or gunman level everyone was going to fry. What story could the gunman have told that wouldn't implicate Shelley - and who could be confident he wouldn't implicate Shelley? What story could Shelley have told that wouldn't implicate Cason - and who could be confident he wouldn't implicate Cason? Likewise Cason with Byrd, and Byrd with LBJ?

Oh, yes, I know - Shelley was "ex-CIA," Cason was active with the American Legion, blah blah blah. It's all "Six Degrees of Separation from Kevin Bacon" sort of nonsense and doesn't begin to explain the five participants' mutual participation in a plot to kill the President of the United States.

And BTW, what was the necessity of all the post-assassination shenanigans you posit? Why did the WC need to be a sham? You appear to me to be arguing out of both sides of your mouth, or perhaps you aren't convinced by your own "simple and uncomplicated" theory?

Your theory, in my humble opinion, is completely irrational. I'm done with you, but Tom might be fascinated by your explanation as to how your theory makes any sense at all.

 "...and poor Oswald thought it was just another day at work"

Start off with lies and misrepresentation and build your case from there.
You seem upset, Lance.
Did I upset you buddy?

[Tom Graves]

In my theory, Oswald is not bound to bring his rifle in on the morning of the assassination as he is in your theory. (paraphrased)

Do you think he brought it in some other morning?

Oswald believed he was involved in something really serious; his actions before and after the assassination reveal that, but I don't believe he knew it was the assassination of JFK -- not when there were targets like LBJ or John Connally in the motorcade.

Do you think he brought it in so another person who worked in the TSBD could shoot Connally or Johnson, maybe even for him?

Are you satisfied with the explanation that an unnamed Secret Service agent handed over two fragments to the Deputy Chief?

Yes.

Why aren't you?

CE-399 wasn't planted. It miraculously appeared in the chain of custody as if out of thin air.

In other words, just like the largish bullet fragments, it was planted.

Since you believe there were only two conspirators, the planting must have been done by one of them, right?

During ballistic testing, bullets were fired into goat ribs and created very similar damage to that seen on CE399.

Were the test bullets flattened on one side towards the rear?

You would have to ask Elmer Todd as he seems to be the person who first handled CE399.

Did he say that he was the first person to handle it?

[Dan O'meara]

Do you think he brought it in some other morning?

Do you think he brought it in so another person who worked in the TSBD could shoot Connally or Johnson for him?

Yes.

Why aren't you?

In other words, it was planted.

Since you believe there were only two conspirators, it must have been done by one of them, right?

Were the test bullets flattened on one side towards the rear?

Did he say that he was the first person to handle it?

This is going nowhere, which is a pity.
Time to get back to the thread:

“Though the fingerprints other than Oswald's on the boxes thus provide no indication of the presence of an accomplice at the window, two Depository employees are known to have been present briefly on the sixth floor during the period between 11:45 a.m., when the floor-laying crew stopped for lunch, and the moment of the assassination. One of these was Charles Givens, a member of the floor-laying crew, who went down on the elevator with the others and then, returned to the sixth floor to get his jacket and cigarettes. He saw Oswald walking away from the southeast corner, but saw no one else on the sixth floor at that time. He then took one of the elevators back to the first floor at approximately 11:55 a.m.”     
[Warren Commission Report pg 249, 250]

The discovery of the lunch remains on the SN was simply ignored by the Warren Commission in it's report because it undermined the Oswald-Did-It [ODI] narrative they were trying to sell.
Ignoring evidence is one thing but fabricating evidence is another thing entirely. This is what happened with Charles Givens and his tale about returning to the 6th floor.
Charles Givens never returned to the 6th floor for his jacket and cigarettes. He wasn't even wearing a jacket that day:

Mr. BELIN.                                                                                                                                             
Did you wear a jacket to work that day?

Mr. GIVENS.                                                                                                                                               
I wore a raincoat, I believe. It was misting that morning.

Mr. BELIN.                                                                                                                                                   
Did you hang up your coat in that room [Domino Room], too?

Mr. GIVENS.                                                                                                                                               
Yes, sir.

Givens never went back up to the 6th floor and he never saw Oswald “walking away from the southeast corner”. Givens had been questioned in detail many times before without mentioning anything about going back up to the 6th floor, let alone seeing Oswald walking away from the southeast corner. This brand new addition to his story should have come as an immense surprise to Warren Commission counsel David Belin, the lawyer interviewing Givens, instead it was treated as gospel and the fact that Givens had failed to mention it in many previous statements was simply overlooked.
This incredibly suspicious addition to Givens' story is dealt with in detail by Sylvia Meagher (“Accessories After the Fact” and “The Curious Testimony of Mr Givens”) and, in particular, by Pat Speer on his website (in the chapter entitled “Pinning The Tail On Oswald”). [https://www.patspeer.com/chapter4-pinning-the-tale-on-the-oswald]

“In February 2012, I stumbled across the FBI's first teletype regarding Givens. (This teletype can be found in FBI file 62-109060 sec 9 p54 on the Mary Ferrell Foundation website.) Here, only hours after he'd been interviewed, it was claimed "Charles Douglas Givens, Employee, TSBD, worked on sixth floor until about eleven thirty A.M. Left at this time going down on elevator. Saw Oswald on fifth floor as left going down. Oswald told him to close the gates when he got to first floor so Oswald could signal for elevator later. Givens stayed on first floor until twelve o'clock and then walked out of the building to watch the parade pass. Oswald was reading paper in the first floor domino room seven-fifty A.M. November twenty two last when Givens came to work."

Speer's in-depth analysis of this issue leaves no doubt that Givens lied about returning to the 6th floor and that Warren Commission counsel David Belin was instrumental in constructing this fabrication. The whole point of this was so that the Commission could conclude the following:

Additional testimony linking Oswald with the point from which the shots were fired was provided by the testimony of Charles Givens, who was the last known employee to see Oswald inside the building prior to the assassination.


The truth is that Givens was not the last employee to see Oswald inside the building. That was Eddie Piper:

Mr. BALL.
Did you leave the first floor from then on until lunch time, from 11:30 until 12?

Mr. PIPER.
No.
                                                                                                                                                                                               
Mr. BALL.
What time was it that you spoke to Oswald and said you thought you would have your lunch?

Mr. PIPER.
Just about 12 o'clock.

Mr. BALL.
 And do you remember exactly what he said?

Mr. PIPER.
No, sir; I don't remember exactly. All I remember him was muttering out something---I didn't know whether he said he was going up or going out.


This was a real problem for the WC's ODI narrative. They needed a window of opportunity for Oswald to assemble his rifle and prepare the SN. The only available window was in between the time the floor-laying crew broke for lunch and Bonnie Ray arriving back on the 6th floor. The very last thing they needed was for Oswald to go down to the first floor at lunch time but this is exactly what he did.
The collective testimonies and statements of the floor-laying crew reveal that around 11:45 am they broke for lunch. Everyday they had been having a race down to the first floor in the elevators. As they were passing the 5th floor Oswald called out to Givens to let him on the elevator but, presumably because he was involved in the race, Givens refused. Oswald called after them to close the gate on the elevator so he could call it back up.
Far from hiding in the shadows, biding his time, Oswald was looking to come down to the first floor.
Piper's testimony confirms he did that.

At around 12:00 pm Oswald was on the first floor and Bonnie Ray was on his way up to the 6th floor (presumably to have his lunch in the Sniper's Nest!)
This narrative had to be changed so in stepped Givens with his obvious fabrication and out went Piper's testimony. The pattern of 'ignored testimony' features heavily with the WC.
The WC could now claim that the last employee to see Oswald saw him on the 6th floor somewhere near the southeast corner. Oswald could now assemble his rifle, prepare the SN and silently hide for almost half an hour while Bonnie Ray had his lunch (sat right next to him?).

Anyone genuinely interested in this should check out the work of Meagher and Speer.

[Tom Graves]

This is going nowhere, which is a pity.

In other words, it's getting difficult for you, and you're "bailing."

Which I totally understand.

[Dan O'meara]

In other words, it's getting difficult for you, and you're "bailing."

Which I totally understand.

It's getting banal and boring.
Redundant questions going nowhere.
It's getting off topic and it's not worth it.

[Tom Graves]

It's getting banal and boring.

But you're "sticking to your guns" in saying there were only two conspirators (and Oswald wasn't one of them), right?

If so, could you please tell us specifically what these two people did?

Thanks!

PS Which one fired CE-399 through a pig carcass?

[Dan O'meara]

But you're "sticking to your guns" in saying there were only two conspirators (and Oswald wasn't one of them), right?

If so, could you please tell us specifically what these two people did?

Thanks!

PS Which one fired CE-399 through a pig carcass?

Your not de-railing this thread.
I'll start another and you can ask your silly questions there but on a quid pro quo basis.