Was G. Calvery talking with Joe Molina on the steps 30 seconds after the shots?

[Tom Graves]

[Joe] Molina saw Gloria [Calvery] in the lobby. He says as much.
The only bald person Gloria talked to on the front steps was Billy Lovelady.

Was there a Mystery Guy in Dealey Plaza that day who was not only was wearing the same clothes as Billy Lovelady, but had an identical bald spot?

This is from Bart Kamp's "Anatomy of the Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter" thingy. (Scroll down to page 28.)

http://www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Anatomy%20of%20the%20second%20floor%20lunch%20room%20encounter%20Aug%2027%202017-by_Bart%20Kamp.pdf

[Dan O'meara]

Was there a Mystery Guy in Dealey Plaza that day who was not only was wearing the same clothes as Billy Lovelady, but had an identical bald spot?

This is from Bart Kamp's "Anatomy of the Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter" thingy. (Scroll down to page 28.)

http://www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Anatomy%20of%20the%20second%20floor%20lunch%20room%20encounter%20Aug%2027%202017-by_Bart%20Kamp.pdf

I understand why this identification of Shelley and Lovelady is so appealing and it was something I initially agreed with.



However, when the identification of Gloria Clavery was suggested as the woman in the black headscarf at the front steps of the TSBD building, it became immediately clear (to me, at least) that this was the moment Gloria arrived at the steps and was telling Lovelady about the shooting of the President. This made me have a closer look at the identification of Lovelady on the Elm street extension.
The first thing I noticed in the footage that the two men were not together. As I've already posted, 'Lovelady' starts off behind 'Shelley', quickly overtakes him and extends the gap between them quickly. They are walking down the same street but they are not together:



Lovelady and Shelley reported that they went from the front steps to the concrete 'spur', where Elm Street and the Elm Street extension separate. It is clear they can't have done that in the clip above as there wouldn't be enough time to listen to Gloria, go across to the 'spur' and then head down the extension. The clip above is taken 20-30 seconds after the last shot. There is also no sign of either one of them turning around to see Baker and Truly entering the TSBD building.



I believe Joe Molina is the man labelled with the letter "A" in the pic above., the man covering his face with his hands.
He is wearing a white shirt, appropriate for his office role.
Below is a close up of the steps, heavily contrasted in order to highlight white (note the woman in the white dress who I believe is Karan Hicks)



The bald man appears to be wearing a dark shirt with possibly a white t-shirt underneath.
The only bald man wearing a dark shirt stood on the front steps was Lovelady who was stood, more or less, in the same position in the Altgens 6 picture.
IMO the picture shows the moment Gloria arrives at the front steps and is telling Lovelady about the shooting. She has just seen the President's head blown off a races back to the TSBD building.

I'm trying to locate a good version of the clip showing this moment at the front steps taken seconds after the shooting. This is a still from that clip which I've added names to:



In the actual footage we see the man I've labelled "Shelley" with his back to the camera taking a step or two towards the steps before turning around. I believe this is Bill Shelley after he has returned from the concrete 'spur' with Gloria. The woman in white (Karan Hicks?) has reached the steps and is going up them. Her arm appears to be linked with Gloria's. I think they have literally just reached the steps when this footage is taken so there is no time for Lovelady and Shelley to be already walking down the extension.

If the identification I've offered is accepted it would be interesting to explore the questions you asked in the OP:

"Assuming I'm right, does what I've said have a bearing on 1) the veracity of Lovelady's and Shelley's claims as to what they did after the assassination (and how soon), 2) the accuracy of the statements of Officer Baker, Roy Truly, Vicki Adams, and Sandra Styles, and 3) whether or not it was possible for Oswald to descend from the 6th floor to the 2nd floor lunchroom without being seen by any of those last four people?"

[Tom Graves]

I understand why this identification of Shelley and Lovelady is so appealing and it was something I initially agreed with.
If the identification I've offered is accepted it would be interesting to explore the questions you asked in the OP:

"Assuming I'm right, does what I've said have a bearing on 1) the veracity of Lovelady's and Shelley's claims as to what they did after the assassination (and how soon), 2) the accuracy of the statements of Officer Baker, Roy Truly, Vicki Adams, and Sandra Styles, and 3) whether or not it was possible for Oswald to descend from the 6th floor to the 2nd floor lunchroom without being seen by any of those last four people?"

If you are indeed correct -- that Billy Lovelady was still on the TSBD steps some 30 seconds after the final shot (while Officer Baker was apparently running past an interested Roy Truly towards the front entrance) and that William Shelley, having just intercepted Gloria Calvery (whom he knew well) at the "island" and then returned to the base of the steps where Calvery was now informing Lovelady that JFK had been shot -- then I suppose it suggests that Baker and Truly entered the TSBD within 40 seconds of the assassination.

What else would you like to add to this scenario?

Do you think Vicki Adams and/or Sandra Styles saw Billy Lovelady and/or William Shelley (or vice versa) on the first floor when they arrived there from the fourth floor?

If so, how long after the final shot do you think that was?

[Dan O'meara]

If you are indeed correct -- that Billy Lovelady was still on the TSBD steps some 30 seconds after the final shot (while Officer Baker was apparently running past an interested Roy Truly towards the front entrance) and that William Shelley, having just intercepted Gloria Calvery (whom he knew well) at the "island" and then returned to the base of the steps where Calvery was now informing Lovelady that JFK had been shot -- then I suppose it suggests that Baker and Truly entered the TSBD within 40 seconds of the assassination.

What else would you like to add to this scenario?

Do you think Vicki Adams and/or Sandra Styles saw Billy Lovelady and/or William Shelley (or vice versa) on the first floor when they arrived there from the fourth floor?

If so, how long after the final shot do you think that was?

The Darnell footage shows Baker arriving at the bottom of the front steps of the TSBD building within seconds of the last shot. In an FBI report dated the 24th Pauline Sanders recalls seeing a police officer with a white helmet arriving at the steps within seconds of the shooting:

"Immediately after the Presidential parade passed she heard three loud blasts and she immediately realized that the shots or whatever it was came from the building above her. She said within a matter of ten seconds a uniform police officer in a white helmet ran into the building..."


Joe Molina testifies that he was stood directly outside the front door and saw Truly actually enter the TSBD building 20 -30 seconds after the shooting:

Mr. Ball: No, I mean when Truly went in; did you see Truly actually go into the building?
Mr. Molina: I saw him go in.
Mr. Ball: Where were you standing?
Mr. Molina: Right at the front door; right at the front door.
Mr. Ball: Outside the front door?
Mr. Molina: Yes, outside the front door I was standing; the door was right behind me.
Mr. Ball: Were you standing on the steps?
Mr. Molina: Yes, on the uppermost step.
Mr. Ball: You actually saw Truly go
Mr. Molina: Yeah.
Mr. Ball: You were still standing there?
Mr. Molina: Yes.
Mr. Ball: How long was it after you heard the shots?
Mr. Molina: Oh, I would venture to say maybe 20 or 30 seconds afterwards.

Time trials conducted involving the movements of Truly and Baker had them entering the TSBD building within seconds of the shots. Along with these time trials we have the testimonies of Truly and Baker confirming this, the statement/testimony of Sanders and Molina confirming the arrival of these men within seconds and the Darnell footage itself showing Baker arriving at the foot of the front steps within seconds as Truly turns round as he, presumably, realizes Baker is entering his building.
All the available evidence points to Truly and Baker entering the TSBD building within seconds of the assassination.



This still from the Darnell footage shows the moment of Baker's imminent arrival at the foot of the front steps. On the west side of the steps Lovelady listens on as Gloria recounts what she saw.
If we could roll the footage on from this point we might see Baker arriving at the foot of the steps and making his way up the east side of the steps (I believe Sanders was stood on the east side). Truly, after turning around makes his way towards the steps and makes his way up them following Baker into the building. While this is happening Shelley is stood at the bottom of the steps and Lovelady is stood on the steps listening to Gloria.

Mr. Ball: By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?
Mr. Lovelady: As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.
Mr. Ball: How many steps?
Mr. Lovelady: Twenty, 25.
Mr. Ball: Steps away and you looked back and saw him enter the building?
Mr. Lovelady: Yes.

Mr. Ball: You went to the concrete between the two Elm Streets?
Mr. Shelley: Yes, where they split.
Mr. Ball: You went out there and then what did you do?
Mr. Shelley: Well, officers started running down to the railroad yards and Billy and I walked down that way.
Mr. Ball: How did you get down that way; what course did you take?
Mr. Shelley: We walked down the middle of the little street.
Mr. Ball: The dead-end street?
Mr. Shelley: Yes.
Mr. Ball: Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the building?
Mr. Shelley: Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island.
Mr. Ball: While you were out there before you walked to the railroad yards?
Mr. Shelley: Yes.

It is this part of the testimonies of Shelley and Lovelady that seemed to support the Dunkel ID of the men on the Elm Street extension. Lovelady testified that they had walked about 25 along the extension when he heard someone call out which made him turn to see Truly and Baker still outside the TSBD building. However, the footage shows that 'Lovelady' never turned around.
Shelley testifies that they were on the "island" (the concrete spur where the two Elms split) when he turns around and sees Baker and Truly still outside the TSBD building. However, the footage shows there wasn't enough time for Shelley and Lovelady to have gone to the island before heading along the extension.

If we accept my proposal, that Lovelady and Shelley are still at the steps when Baker arrives and enters the building, then we have to accept that both men are lying about moving away from the steps before turning around and seeing Truly and Baker still outside the building. Both men are individually telling the same lie - that they moved away from the steps before turning around to see Truly and Baker still outside the building. This is confirmed by another lie that both men individually tell the WC:

Mr. Ball: Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. Shelley: It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
Mr. Ball: She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?
Mr. Shelley: Yes.

Mr. Ball: You heard the shots. And how long after that was it before Gloria Calvary came up?
Mr. Lovelady: Oh, approximately 3 minutes, I would say.
Mr. Ball: Three minutes is a long time.

Both men individually tell the WC that it was at least 3 minutes before Gloria Calvery came up to the steps!
Both men have created the same false narrative - they hear the shots as they are stood on the front steps, 3 minutes after the shots Gloria Calvery comes up to the steps and tells them about the President being shot, both men decide to investigate and leave the steps, after leaving the steps they turn around and see Truly and Baker still stood outside the TSBD building.

In effect, both men have testified that at least three minutes after the assassination Truly and Baker are still outside the TSBD building!

Both men tell two lies that are exactly the same - Gloria took at least three minutes to get to the steps and that they had left the steps and turned around to see Baker and Truly still outside the building.
I have studied this issue extensively in two threads - "The 3 Minute Lie" and "Vicki Adams: The Lost Interview".
I have concluded that Shelley and Lovelady lied about how long it took for Gloria to reach the steps.
They lied about turning around and seeing Baker and Truly still outside the building.
They lied about going along the Elm Street extension to the railroad yards.
They lied about hanging around there and re-entering the building through the little known west door.

Shelley and Truly were stood on the steps when the shots were fired.
After the shots Shelley made his way out to the concrete spur where he ran into an hysterical Gloria Calvery running the other way.
He followed Gloria back to the front steps where Lovelady was still standing.
Immediately after hearing about the President being shot in the head, both men make their way back into the building.
They pass Baker in the lobby and make their way towards the back of the first floor where they are seen by Vicki Adams as she and Sandra Styles race towards the north door leading onto the Houston Street dock.
Vicki calls out to them about the President but they say nothing.
Seconds later Truly and Baker arrive on the scene. In his WC testimony Baker recalls seeing two white men hanging around near the elevators who can only be Shelley and Lovelady.

[Royell Storing]

     The WC  testimonies of Lovelady and Shelley has Both of them saying they left the TSBD Steps and then moved down the Elm St Ext "MINUTES" after the Kill Shot. Based on the corroborating WC Testimonies of Lovelady and Shelley, that is NOT the 2 of them on the Couch Film. And to claim we are STILL seeing DPD Officer Smith on the segment of the Couch Film where Haygood's motorcycle slips between Camera Car #1 & Camera Car #2 seriously damages your image interpretation opinion(s). (1) DPD Officer Smith was Not running in place, and (2) all 3 camera cars came to a DEAD STOP when turning from Houston St onto Elm St. The clock was running + Officer Smith was running.   

[Dan O'meara]

These quotes from Vicki are taken from Pat Speer's website:

"After the third shot she observed the car containing President Kennedy to speed up and rush away...She and her friend then ran immediately to the back of the building to where the stairs are located."

"After the third shot I went out the back door."

"And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the back of the building down the back stairs..."

"I saw a Secret Service man jump in and the car began speeding toward the triple underpass. Before it reached that [the underpass] I turned to Sandra and I said, 'I want to see what is going on.' We ran to the back of the office and down the stairs."

Before the limo had even reached the underpass Vicki had decided she was going to find out what was going on. She and Sandra immediately race out of the office towards the back stairs. Over and over again Vicki insists she left immediately, over and over again she insists that she ran all the way until the encounter with the police officer around the back of the building.
And we have direct evidence that Adams and Sandra did indeed leave their position at the fourth floor office window within seconds of the shooting:
Below is a plan of the fourth floor of the TSBD building. Adams worked in the office of Scott Foresman Co., where she watched the motorcade pass with Sandra Styles, Dorothy Garner and Elsie Dorman. The red box indicates the 5 double sets of windows for that office. The red "A" indicates Adams' location as the Presidential limo passed by. Her colleagues crowded around that double set of windows with Elsie Dorman filming the approaching limo.



Below is a photo taken by Tom Dillard. The red box indicates the same windows. Adams was stood at the open window marked with a red "A".



When we take a closer look at the window we notice that there is no-one stood where there should be four women watching the motorcade. We can see the figure of one woman standing in the window to the left of that. As we know, Adams, Styles and Garner left office after the shooting. It appears they have left by the time this pic was taken.




The question is - how long after the assassination was this photo taken?
This is what Dillard has to say about the picture (quotes taken from Pat Speer's website):

"Bob Jackson, a photographer in my car, said, There's the rifle in that open window. In the three or four seconds it took me to locate the particular open window and make a picture, the rifle had been withdrawn."
"Bob Jackson said, “There’s a guy with a rifle up in that window.” I said, “Where?” I had both cameras around my neck, loaded, focused, cocked…Bob says, “In that window up on that building right there, it’s that top window.” I shot a picture with the wide-angle camera. I said, “Which window?” He said, “It’s the one on the right, second from the top.” By that time, I had the 100mm camera up, shot a picture of that window…."


Clearly this is literally a few seconds after the shooting has occurred as he just missed the rifle being drawn back into the window. On Mark Tyler's Motorcade Mapping website the Dillard pic is taken 11 seconds after the headshot. The limo has barely got out of the Triple Underpass

The Dillard picture is incredibly strong evidence that Adams took off running about 10 seconds after the last shot. This decision was made before the limo even reached the Underpass.

"As the car came back into view I saw that something was wrong and watched as Mrs. Kennedy appeared to be trying to climb out of the car. I saw a Secret Service man jump in and the car began speeding toward the triple underpass. Before it reached that [the triple underpass] I turned to Sandra and I said, 'I want to see what is going on.' We ran to the back of the office and down the stairs."

How long would it take a young women running full tilt in high heels to get down 3 flights of stairs - 30 seconds? 40 seconds?
Let's say her estimate of reaching the first floor one minute after the shooting is conservative, the question remains, what were Lovelady and Shelley doing there?
It must be noted, this mention of Lovelady and Shelley did not first come about during Adams' WC testimony:

 "When the President got in front of us I heard someone call him and he turned. That is when I heard the first shot. I thought it was a firecracker. Then the second shot I saw the Secret Service man run to the back of the President's car. After the third shot I went out the back door. I said, 'I think someone has been shot.' The elevator was not running and there was no one on the stairs. I went down to the first floor. I saw Mr. Shelly and another employee named Bill. The freight elevator had not moved, and I still did not see anyone on the stairs. I ran out the back door of the depository..."
(2-17-64 statement to the Dallas Police Department, box 3 folder 19 file 3 of the Dallas JFK Archive)[Speer]

If we take Vicki's statements at face value, she decided to race outside within seconds of the shots, she ran all the way, when she reached the first floor,within 60 seconds of heading off, she saw Lovelady and Shelley on the first floor. She actually called out to them but received no response. Vicki is an intelligent, articulate young woman of outstanding character, why wouldn't we accept her version of events.