Users Currently Browsing This Topic:
0 Members

Author Topic: The Simplest Conspiracy Theory  (Read 960 times)

Online Tom Graves

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 743
Re: The Simplest Conspiracy Theory
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2025, 09:56:22 PM »
Advertisement
All credible evidence regarding who was on the 6th floor just before, during and after the assassination points away from Oswald.
For this reason, I don't accept that Oswald took the shots.
This automatically makes me a Conspiracy Theorist.
This required that I make up a conspiracy theory that could account for my conviction that Oswald didn't take the shots.
The evidence that it wasn't Oswald who took the shots is the primary factor in my approach.

I do not accept that there were multiple shooters around Dealey Plaza who were then going to make it look like one shooter, that wouldn't have made it past the planning stage.
I don't accept it was an intelligence agency, they could have killed JFK in private without any loose ends.
The assassination of JFK has always seemed to me like a Hail Mary attempt that almost went wrong. The first shot was non-fatal and he could have got down in the limo making the second shot impossible. An assassination attempt in public from long distance seems to me like someone who couldn't get close to the President. It seems really lo-fi.
I don't accept that the CIA/FBI/KGB/Mafia/Cubans were involved in the shooting.
There was enough evidence pointing to one person firing three shots from the Sniper's Nest to convince me.

It is a feature of the Lone Nutter theory that there is no motive so I started there - who had the best motive for wanting JFK dead?
Although there are quite a few candidates for this, there is one who is head and shoulders above the rest - LBJ.
That LBJ was a borderline psychopath who loathed the Kennedy's and lusted after the power of Presidency might seem enough but there was a more urgent motive. LBJ was off the ticket in '64 and being investigated for crimes that would have potentially put him behind bars for a very long time. He was about to lose everything and there was literally only one solution - to become President. The reason he accepted the role of Vice President was largely based on the possibility of JFK being assassinated. If JFK was NOT assassinated before LBJ was off the ticket he was done for.

So, what possible connection could there be between LBJ and Lee Harvey Oswald?

The obvious connection is David Harold Byrd, founder of the Civil Air Patrol of which Oswald had been a cadet, friend of Georges De Morenschildt who befriended Oswald and helped him to find work, and Byrd was owner of the TSBD building where Oswald worked and from where the shots were taken.
Byrd was also an incredibly close friend of LBJ.
What would Byrd's motive be to get involved in the assassination of JFK? - his ultra far-right tendencies and tens of millions of dollars.
The first defense contract awarded during LBJ's presidency went to Byrd's company, LTV. Johnson also kept in place the oil depletion allowance.

So, here is the imagined scenario - in an oak-paneled room over brandy and cigars, LBJ and Byrd agree that JFK has to go. Byrd agrees to make it happen in return for untold wealth. All LBJ has to do is get JFK to visit Dallas before the next election. As in 1960, the motorcade route will take JFK directly past the TSBD building. All that needs to happen is to have a man take a relatively easy shot from the building as JFK passes by.
It could not be simpler.
The number one concern for both LBJ and Byrd is that there is no chance this can be traced back to them because if it goes wrong they could lose everything (LBJ has nothing to lose as he is going to lose everything anyway).
The only way to guarantee this is compartmentalization. LBJ and Byrd must be separated from the shooter in such a way that their involvement is unknown.
The simplest solution I could come up with that fulfills this criteria is as follows:

LBJ and Byrd decide that JFk has to go.
Byrd gets Jack Cason on board. Cason, President of the TSBD, is another ultra far right winger. He came on the FBI's radar at one point when his wife was reported to have said at a party that JFK should be shot, so the position of the Cason household seems pretty clear. I can also work with Cason's actions during the time JFK passes by as they can be interpreted in a suspicious way  (remember, I'm making all this up).
What does Cason get out of all this?
I'm not sure at the moment. He is more than just a foot soldier so it would have to be more than an ideological principle.
Cason also acts as a buffer between LBJ, Byrd and Bill Shelley.
Shelley is a foot soldier and acts out of an ideological principle (God, Country, Democracy etc.). His job is to organize the shooter and the patsy. He has no idea of the involvement of LBJ and Byrd, they have now been successfully separated from the assassination planning and execution and are fully covered by 'plausible deniability'.
Obviously the patsy is Oswald.
As for the shooter, there are two possible candidates.
Mac Wallace - LBJ's henchman, worked for Byrd's LTV. Oswald's job is to meet and greet at the back door, make sure the coast is clear and that everything is ready. The only issue with this is how Wallace gets out after the shooting as the quick arrival of Baker on the scene causes a lot of problems.
Jack Dougherty - the only other TSBD employee who was in the building, has no alibi and whose testimony/statements about his movements are ridiculously suspicious as is his treatment as a witness. He is also a perfect second patsy if the first one doesn't work out.

LBJ and Byrd
Cason
Shelley
Shooter and Patsy

That is the sum total of the simplest conspiracy theory I can imagine.

O'meara,

It seems as though your strategy is to feign obtuseness; deflect, deflect, deflect; and simply keep repeating the same nonsensical arguments ad nauseam.

A conspiracy theory is not “simple” merely because one declares it so. What could be simpler than “invisible aliens did it”? What could be simpler that “Angleton, Truly and a Mafia hit man did it”? These indeed have the virtue of being simple. They suffer from the same defects as yours: They are simple only if one ignores their utter implausibility and all the gaps in evidence and logic they blithely skip over. They are not merely “too” speculative – they are entirely speculative.

LBJ? He figures in virtually every conspiracy theory, so we’ll let it slide. Byrd? A right-wing Texas oil guy, so we’ll let it slide.

Cason? Now things start to unravel. OK, he was conservative and not a JFK fan. You have nothing in his entire life, before or after the JFKA, to suggest he would have been or was amenable to participating in an assassination plot he thought was hatched by Byrd or would have selected Shelley as the point man.

Shelley? The theory goes poof. You have absolutely nothing in the life of Shelley, before or after the assassination, to suggest he was a fanatical ideologue or would have been amenable to participating in an assassination plot he thought was hatched by Cason. Nor, if he was, can you account for his actions during the noon hour on 11-22-63, which in fact do not mesh with your theory at all.

Assassination guy? Oh, dear. Wallace? You have nothing to suggest why Wallace would have been amenable to an assassination plot he thought was hatched by Shelley or Cason. Logically, Wallace would have required assurance LBJ was on board – there goes the entire “compartmentalization” aspect – and significant compensation.

Dougherty? Now we’re desperate. You have absolutely nothing, simple as that. You cannot even explain why he, the supposed gunman, bolstered the supposed patsy’s alibi.

Oswald? Without extending your theory beyond Cason, Shelley and Wallace/Dougherty, please explain how Oswald ever got on the "patsy" radar screen in the first place. Explain how the rifle got into the building. Explain why no one exercised any control over the ostensible patsy during the assassination and how he was able to simply walk out of the building. Explain why he went home, got his pistol, killed Tippit, resisted arrest and was completely uncooperative in custody; please explain how these are the actions of an innocent "patsy."

-- Posted originally by Lance Payette; edited slightly by me

« Last Edit: April 02, 2025, 09:59:14 PM by Tom Graves »

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: The Simplest Conspiracy Theory
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2025, 09:56:22 PM »


Offline Lance Payette

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 251
Re: The Simplest Conspiracy Theory
« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2025, 03:23:56 AM »
O'meara,

It seems as though your strategy is to feign obtuseness; deflect, deflect, deflect; and simply keep repeating the same nonsensical arguments ad nauseam.

A conspiracy theory is not “simple” merely because one declares it so. What could be simpler than “invisible aliens did it”? What could be simpler that “Angleton, Truly and a Mafia hit man did it”? These indeed have the virtue of being simple. They suffer from the same defects as yours: They are simple only if one ignores their utter implausibility and all the gaps in evidence and logic they blithely skip over. They are not merely “too” speculative – they are entirely speculative.

LBJ? He figures in virtually every conspiracy theory, so we’ll let it slide. Byrd? A right-wing Texas oil guy, so we’ll let it slide.

Cason? Now things start to unravel. OK, he was conservative and not a JFK fan. You have nothing in his entire life, before or after the JFKA, to suggest he would have been or was amenable to participating in an assassination plot he thought was hatched by Byrd or would have selected Shelley as the point man.

Shelley? The theory goes poof. You have absolutely nothing in the life of Shelley, before or after the assassination, to suggest he was a fanatical ideologue or would have been amenable to participating in an assassination plot he thought was hatched by Cason. Nor, if he was, can you account for his actions during the noon hour on 11-22-63, which in fact do not mesh with your theory at all.

Assassination guy? Oh, dear. Wallace? You have nothing to suggest why Wallace would have been amenable to an assassination plot he thought was hatched by Shelley or Cason. Logically, Wallace would have required assurance LBJ was on board – there goes the entire “compartmentalization” aspect – and significant compensation.

Dougherty? Now we’re desperate. You have absolutely nothing, simple as that. You cannot even explain why he, the supposed gunman, bolstered the supposed patsy’s alibi.

Oswald? Without extending your theory beyond Cason, Shelley and Wallace/Dougherty, please explain how Oswald ever got on the "patsy" radar screen in the first place. Explain how the rifle got into the building. Explain why no one exercised any control over the ostensible patsy during the assassination and how he was able to simply walk out of the building. Explain why he went home, got his pistol, killed Tippit, resisted arrest and was completely uncooperative in custody; please explain how these are the actions of an innocent "patsy."

-- Posted originally by Lance Payette; edited slightly by me

 ;D Ha! Nice work, Tom.

Our hero says he didn't get past my first line, but he even managed to misread THAT. I didn't say I was leaving. I said I was consigning HIM to the bin of those CTers who are simply not worth my time.

You will also note that he had previously said that if I posted rationally (what fun would that be???) he would be "happy to engage." But not past the first line, apparently.

Online Tom Graves

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 743
Re: The Simplest Conspiracy Theory
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2025, 10:30:21 AM »
;D Ha! Nice work, Tom.

Our hero says he didn't get past my first line, but he even managed to misread THAT. I didn't say I was leaving. I said I was consigning HIM to the bin of those CTers who are simply not worth my time.

You will also note that he had previously said that if I posted rationally (what fun would that be???) he would be "happy to engage." But not past the first line, apparently.

Thanks, Lance.

Dan's the kind of guy who can't be bothered with JFKA conspiracy-theory-demolishing facts.

They're just too painful for him to countenance.

The sad thing is that he's so paranoiac that, instead of believing that a self-described Marxist and former sharpshooting Marine who had lived half-a-mile from a KGB school in Minsk for two-and-one-half years killed JFK, he prefers to believe that oodles and gobs of bad guys and really, really bad gals were involved in the planning, the "patsy-ing," the shooting, and the all-important cover up.  ::)
« Last Edit: April 03, 2025, 10:43:31 AM by Tom Graves »

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: The Simplest Conspiracy Theory
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2025, 10:30:21 AM »


Online Dan O'meara

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3411
Re: The Simplest Conspiracy Theory
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2025, 12:51:14 PM »
O'meara,

It seems as though your strategy is to feign obtuseness; deflect, deflect, deflect; and simply keep repeating the same nonsensical arguments ad nauseam.

A conspiracy theory is not “simple” merely because one declares it so. What could be simpler than “invisible aliens did it”? What could be simpler that “Angleton, Truly and a Mafia hit man did it”? These indeed have the virtue of being simple. They suffer from the same defects as yours: They are simple only if one ignores their utter implausibility and all the gaps in evidence and logic they blithely skip over. They are not merely “too” speculative – they are entirely speculative.

LBJ? He figures in virtually every conspiracy theory, so we’ll let it slide. Byrd? A right-wing Texas oil guy, so we’ll let it slide.

Cason? Now things start to unravel. OK, he was conservative and not a JFK fan. You have nothing in his entire life, before or after the JFKA, to suggest he would have been or was amenable to participating in an assassination plot he thought was hatched by Byrd or would have selected Shelley as the point man.

Shelley? The theory goes poof. You have absolutely nothing in the life of Shelley, before or after the assassination, to suggest he was a fanatical ideologue or would have been amenable to participating in an assassination plot he thought was hatched by Cason. Nor, if he was, can you account for his actions during the noon hour on 11-22-63, which in fact do not mesh with your theory at all.

Assassination guy? Oh, dear. Wallace? You have nothing to suggest why Wallace would have been amenable to an assassination plot he thought was hatched by Shelley or Cason. Logically, Wallace would have required assurance LBJ was on board – there goes the entire “compartmentalization” aspect – and significant compensation.

Dougherty? Now we’re desperate. You have absolutely nothing, simple as that. You cannot even explain why he, the supposed gunman, bolstered the supposed patsy’s alibi.

Oswald? Without extending your theory beyond Cason, Shelley and Wallace/Dougherty, please explain how Oswald ever got on the "patsy" radar screen in the first place. Explain how the rifle got into the building. Explain why no one exercised any control over the ostensible patsy during the assassination and how he was able to simply walk out of the building. Explain why he went home, got his pistol, killed Tippit, resisted arrest and was completely uncooperative in custody; please explain how these are the actions of an innocent "patsy."

-- Posted originally by Lance Payette; edited slightly by me

McMahon,

Are you now Lance's sock puppet (there's a creepy visual  :-[)

Irritatingly, in his last ever interaction with me, which I agree was semi-rational, Lance has finally made a coherent, valid point.

Assassination guy? Oh, dear. Wallace? You have nothing to suggest why Wallace would have been amenable to an assassination plot he thought was hatched by Shelley or Cason. Logically, Wallace would have required assurance LBJ was on board – there goes the entire “compartmentalization” aspect – and significant compensation.

I only entertained Wallace because of the rumours that one of his fingerprints was found in the Sniper's Nest but I'd already expressed reservations about his selection - "The only issue with this is how Wallace gets out after the shooting as the quick arrival of Baker on the scene causes a lot of problems."
But Lance has raised a valid point, the inclusion of Wallace into the conspiracy theory ends the aspect of compartmentalization which is absolutely key to this theory. Wallace is LBJ's man which is a direct connection between LBJ and the assassination.
This can't be allowed to happen as the very top priority for LBJ and Byrd must be that the assassination plot can't come back to them in any way. There must be 'plausible deniability'.
Wallace is out.

Let's go through the rest of the post:

Your version of the Conspiratorial Tap Dance, much like theirs, is to feign obtuseness;

This is a falsehood. I've never feigned obtuseness in any discussion with Lance.

deflect, deflect, deflect;

This is also a falsehood. I've never deflected anything.
More importantly, I would never stoop to lying.

and simply keep repeating the same nonsensical arguments ad nauseam.

Meaning - I keep repeating the same argument over and over again.
Only in the world of the feeble-minded is this a negative quality.
Of course I repeat the same argument.
The only time I would change my argument is if good evidence or a good counter-argument forced me to review my position. Exactly as the 'Mac Wallace' counter-argument did.

A conspiracy theory is not “simple” merely because one declares it so. What could be simpler than “invisible aliens did it”? What could be simpler that “Angleton, Truly and a Mafia hit man did it”? These indeed have the virtue of being simple. They suffer from the same defects as yours: They are simple only if one ignores their utter implausibility and all the gaps in evidence and logic they blithely skip over. They are not merely “too” speculative – they are entirely speculative.

Man, you really talk some nonsense.

LBJ? He figures in virtually every conspiracy theory, so we’ll let it slide. Byrd? A right-wing Texas oil guy, so we’ll let it slide.

The reasons for having LBJ and Byrd as the instigators of the assassination is covered in detail in the OP.

"Cason? Now things start to unravel. OK, he was conservative and not a JFK fan. You have nothing in his entire life, before or after the JFKA, to suggest he would have been or was amenable to participating in an assassination plot he thought was hatched by Byrd or would have selected Shelley as the point man."

There's nothing in Cason's life to suggest he would be amenable to an assassination plot? Obviously Lance is unaware that the Cason household was raked over the coals by the FBI for publicly pronouncing that JFK should be shot. Cason's ultra far-right pedigree is impeccable and puts him in the same category as Hitler-loving Byrd. Interestingly LBJ, Byrd and Cason were all Freemasons, always good for a conspiracy theory.
This is the only official statement Cason made to any investigating authority regarding the assassination:

"On November 22, 1963 I left the Depository Building
at approximately 12 :10 P .M . and walked to the parking lot
at the west side of the building and picked up my car . I
then drove out Stemmons Expressway an route to my residence
and while driving I heard that President John F . Kennedy had
been shot near the Depository Building . I was alone in the
car and drove directly home after making one stop at a store ."


That's it.
That's the sum total of Cason's contribution to the "investigation".
This was part of the round of CE1381's that all employees in the TSBD building had to answer.
Other than that Cason was never questioned about the assassination by the DPD, FBI, Secret Service or Warren Commission even though he was President of the TSBD.
And even this short statement is weird - the President of the United States is passing directly in front of his office, everyone is out in celebration but Cason decides to go home. He gets in his car around 12:10 pm for a ten minute drive and is still driving when he hears on the radio about JFK being shot. But reports about JFK being shot weren't on the radio for quite some time.
It's all a bit fishy.
Obviously, it's not proof that Cason was involved in the plot just as there is no proof that Oswald took the shots.
But Lance's protests, that there's no way Cason could possibly be involved, are more bark than bite.


"Shelley? The theory goes poof. You have absolutely nothing in the life of Shelley, before or after the assassination, to suggest he was a fanatical ideologue or would have been amenable to participating in an assassination plot he thought was hatched by Cason. Nor, if he was, can you account for his actions during the noon hour on 11-22-63, which in fact do not mesh with your theory at all."


The theory goes poof??
What an unbiased, rational assessment.
Lance keeps making the claim that there is nothing in Shelley's life to indicate "he was a fanatical ideologue", not that I ever claimed he was one. He gives the impression that he's really familiar with Shelley, that he knows his political beliefs or religious views but the truth is that he knows nothing about how Shelley viewed things. Lance's silly argument can be turned on it's head - there's nothing in Shelley'e life to show he WASN'T a fanatical ideologue.
But what I have done is demonstrate beyond any reasonable doubt, that Shelley lied about his movements in the immediate aftermath of the assassination ("The 3 Minute Lie" thread). If Shelley was just some innocent bystander why would he be lying over and over again to various law enforcement agencies?
Another interesting thing about Shelley is that Oswald reportedly named Shelley as part of his alibi. The story is that after his encounter with Baker and Truly, Oswald went to the front lobby where he had a chat with Shelley. As a result of this chat Oswald left the building.
The only rational reason Oswald would name Shelley is because he fully expected Shelley to back him up.

"Dougherty? Now we’re desperate. You have absolutely nothing, simple as that. You cannot even explain why he, the supposed gunman, bolstered the supposed patsy’s alibi."

Nothing?
Dougherty's testimony and statements about what he did around the time of the assassination are some of the most bizarre and contradictory aspects of the whole case.
Dougherty was in the building at the time.
He testified that he was on the 6th floor just before and after the shooting.
His story about going down to see Eddie Piper is off the charts.
What is really interesting is that not once, ever, did Dougherty explain what he saw while he was up on the 6th floor. Everyone just gave him a pass - the FBI, the WC Sham.
There is no contemporary photo of Dougherty, no detailed description.
He fits like a glove into this conspiracy theory.

"Oswald? Without extending your theory beyond Cason, Shelley and Wallace/Dougherty, please explain how Oswald ever got on the "patsy" radar screen in the first place. Explain how the rifle got into the building. Explain why no one exercised any control over the ostensible patsy during the assassination and how he was able to simply walk out of the building. Explain why he went home, got his pistol, killed Tippit, resisted arrest and was completely uncooperative in custody; please explain how these are the actions of an innocent "patsy."

please explain how Oswald ever got on the "patsy" radar screen in the first place.
He showed up for work at the TSBD building

Explain how the rifle got into the building.
Oswald brought it

Explain why no one exercised any control over the ostensible patsy during the assassination
He was under strict orders

how he was able to simply walk out of the building.
He had legs

Explain why he went home, got his pistol, killed Tippit, resisted arrest and was completely uncooperative in custody; please explain how these are the actions of an innocent "patsy."

He was a fugitive on the run heading for the border when Tippit got in his way. He was not "innocent". I have never suggested that.

Online Dan O'meara

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3411
Re: The Simplest Conspiracy Theory
« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2025, 12:53:23 PM »
Thanks, Lance.

Dan's the kind of guy who can't be bothered with JFKA conspiracy-theory-demolishing facts.

They're just too painful for him to countenance.

The sad thing is that he's so paranoiac that, instead of believing that a self-described Marxist and former sharpshooting Marine who had lived half-a-mile from a KGB school in Minsk for two-and-one-half years killed JFK, he prefers to believe that oodles and gobs of bad guys and really, really bad gals were involved in the planning, the "patsy-ing," the shooting, and the all-important cover up.  ::)

Thanks, Lance.
 :-*

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: The Simplest Conspiracy Theory
« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2025, 12:53:23 PM »


Online Dan O'meara

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3411
Re: The Simplest Conspiracy Theory
« Reply #21 on: Today at 01:02:33 AM »
Let's have a closer examination of something that really puts Bill Shelley in the spotlight as Oswald's accomplice.
Oswald may have been a lot of things but he was not stupid. Beyond the mumbling loner known to his work colleagues, Oswald was an intelligent and articulate man. His various radio and television appearances demonstrate this with clarity as does the fact he taught himself to speak Russian.
When a person gives an alibi to the police they know they have gone on the record and that this is the version of events that will be used against them in a court of law. For anyone accused of a crime, the most important element of their defense is the 'alibi'. They also know that once the alibi is given it will be checked to see how 'cast iron' it is. For crimes such as shooting police officers or Presidents, this is doubly so.
An alibi that turns out to false is a massive red flag to investigating authorities.
If a guilty person is going to give a false alibi it must be one that is incredibly difficult to verify or one that has been agreed with an accomplice.
Looking through the various notes and reports pertaining to Oswald's interrogation, his alibi has a few different elements:
According to what Oswald reportedly said -

1] He was in the lunch room on the first floor (the Domino Room) when JFK's limo drove by the building.
2] After this he went up to the second floor lunchroom to buy a Coke
3] He bought the Coke and was drinking it when Baker burst in, gun drawn.
4] He went back down to the first floor.
5] At some point he got together with Bill Shelley.
6] As a consequence of his conversation with Shelley, Oswald decided to leave.
7] Oswald left the building.

The most significant element (imo) of Oswald's alibi is his interaction with Bill Shelley. Apparently, Oswald credits Shelley with his motive for leaving the building. The importance of this cannot be stressed enough because it is Oswald's decision to 'flee the scene' that puts him well and truly in the spotlight as a prime suspect on the day of the assassination. Even if he actually pulled the trigger, he has no reason to run immediately. He has already encountered the police, seconds after the shooting, four floors below the location of the shooting and has been given a pass. They can't immediately trace the rifle to him, they can't use fingerprint evidence against him on the day. All he has to do is hold his nerve, say he was on the second floor lunchroom all along and skip town later that day. Instead, he leaves the TSBD building and appears to be making a run for the border when he crosses paths with J D Tippit.

So let's imagine that Oswald is the shooter and is trying to come up with a false alibi. One that will stick in a court of law or at least convince the DPD.
He's being asked - why did you flee the scene of the crime? Obviously, he has to come up with something convincing but something that would be almost impossible to verify.
Instead, he basically says that Bill Shelley said it was OK for him to leave!
Why on earth would he mention Bill Shelley? Why would he say it was Bill Shelley who recommended he leave for the day?
After his arrest, Oswald saw Shelley as he was being taken into the interview room because Shelley, who was having his affidavit taken, had to vacate the same room. So Oswald knew that all they had to do was ask Shelley if such a conversation took place. It's the easiest thing in the world to check and it can be checked almost immediately.

According to his testimony, Shelley (like nearly everyone else) hardly knew Oswald at all except as someone who worked at the TSBD building. Why would Oswald, an intelligent man, think Shelley would back him up? Why would he take such a ridiculous risk? Why would it even cross his mind to offer such an easily checked alibi if he knew the detectives could immediately ask Shelley if it was true?
The answer to this question is obvious - Oswald did it because he fully expected that Shelley would back him up!
Which of these two options makes sense - that Oswald was so utterly stupid as to include Shelley in a false alibi that could be checked out immediately, leaving him looking completely guilty...
...or that Oswald fully expected to be backed up by Shelley, which is why he felt comfortable telling his interrogators about it?
Of course, when asked, Shelley denied all knowledge of this interaction with Oswald. This is from an FBI report about Shelley the day after the assassination:

"OSWALD said nothing to him about leaving work early or going home, and he did not give OSWALD permission to leave work.

He is still being asked about it in his WC testimony:

Mr. Ball: Did you at anytime after the President was shot see Oswald in the building?
Mr. Shelley: No, sir.
Mr. Ball: Did you at anytime after the President was shot tell Oswald to go home?
Mr. Shelley: No, sir.


Fritz makes the point that Oswald was cool and collected during the questioning, as if he'd experienced this kind of thing before, so the idea that a panicked and desperate Oswald blurted out the first name he could think of as an alibi is a non-starter.
It must rate as one of the weakest alibis in law enforcement history and something only an utter moron would come up with.
Or...
...Shelley was lying...
...again.
He lied about his movements in the immediate aftermath of the assassination and he was lying again about interacting with Oswald.
Of course Nutters will cry "but Oswald was crazy".
That may well be, but he wasn't so stupid as to think his Shelley alibi would stand up if it was false.
Oswald expected Shelley to back him up.
But only an accomplice would do that.
« Last Edit: Today at 01:10:09 AM by Dan O'meara »

Online John Mytton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4669
Re: The Simplest Conspiracy Theory
« Reply #22 on: Today at 01:20:55 AM »

Looking through the various notes and reports pertaining to Oswald's interrogation, his alibi has a few different elements:
According to what Oswald reportedly said -

1] He was in the lunch room on the first floor (the Domino Room) when JFK's limo drove by the building.
2] After this he went up to the second floor lunchroom to buy a Coke
3] He bought the Coke and was drinking it when Baker burst in, gun drawn.
4] He went back down to the first floor.
5] At some point he got together with Bill Shelley.
6] As a consequence of his conversation with Shelley, Oswald decided to leave.
7] Oswald left the building.


1) Apparently Oswald liked Kennedy and in addition Oswald was very political and this was a once in a lifetime opportunity. And Oswald didn't exactly have to go out of his way to see the parade, so why didn't he go out and have a look or even just go to a window? Well, we all know Oswald did in fact go to a window and watched the Parade through the scope on his rifle!
2) Oswald like Dr Pepper and there was a Dr Pepper machine on the 1st floor.
3) Both Baker and Truly testified that Oswald wasn't holding a coke.
4) Yes, yes he did!
5) As your Shelley quote from his testimony points out, Shelley didn't see Oswald and I don't believe that Shelley was alone in the minutes following the assassination and nobody else saw Oswald with Shelley?
6) No, Oswald was in the flight of his life!
7) Right! Oswald has left the building!

JohnM

Online Dan O'meara

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3411
Re: The Simplest Conspiracy Theory
« Reply #23 on: Today at 01:35:24 AM »
1) Apparently Oswald liked Kennedy and in addition Oswald was very political and this was a once in a lifetime opportunity. And Oswald didn't exactly have to go out of his way to see the parade, so why didn't he go out and have a look or even just go to a window? Well, we all know Oswald did in fact go to a window and watched the Parade through the scope on his rifle!
2) Oswald like Dr Pepper and there was a Dr Pepper machine on the 1st floor.
3) Both Baker and Truly testified that Oswald wasn't holding a coke.
4) Yes, yes he did!
5) As your Shelley quote from his testimony points out, Shelley didn't see Oswald and I don't believe that Shelley was alone in the minutes following the assassination and nobody else saw Oswald with Shelley?
6) No, Oswald was in the flight of his life!
7) Right! Oswald has left the building!

JohnM

That's quite weird, John.
Any chance of dealing with the issue I raise in my post.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: The Simplest Conspiracy Theory
« Reply #23 on: Today at 01:35:24 AM »