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Author Topic: I'm convinced - CE 399 is entirely bogus!  (Read 8161 times)

Online David Von Pein

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Re: I'm convinced - CE 399 is entirely bogus!
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2025, 10:31:07 PM »
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https://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/04/index.html#CE399

Excerpt from above articles....

"...Since there's so much OTHER stuff (bullet-wise and shell-wise) that links Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano to the assassination, CTers who continue to want to believe that CE399 didn't really come out of Oswald's rifle when JFK's car passed through Dealey Plaza on November 22nd have a very large mountain to climb in order to advance the "399 Is A Fraud" conspiracy theory.

Because if CE567 and CE569 (the two front-seat bullet fragments linked conclusively to Oswald's rifle) are the Real McCoy (i.e., genuine evidence that wasn't tampered with in some manner)....

And: if the three bullet shells that were found by the police underneath the sniper's window on the sixth floor are also genuine....

Then common sense (plus the overall ODDS) would certainly indicate that it's very, very likely that Bullet #399 was ALSO a "genuine" article as well, with that whole bullet exiting Lee Harvey Oswald's gun at 12:30 PM on 11/22/63 in Dealey Plaza.

And if the CTers wish to travel down the "ALL OF THE CARCANO (C2766) BULLET EVIDENCE IS TAINTED" road, then they've got THREE "This Evidence Is Tainted" mountains to climb -- the "CE567/569" mountain; the "Shells In The Window" mountain; and the large hill marked "CE399" too.

I hope those CTers are in good shape and are really good mountain climbers. Because getting to the top of just ONE of those three Mount Everests is likely to give an average (and reasoned-thinking) person a coronary.

But that hasn't stopped certain conspiracy theorists from heading up that unclimbable series of
peaks. Has it?"
-- DVP; October 2007

« Last Edit: April 14, 2025, 10:35:45 PM by David Von Pein »

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Re: I'm convinced - CE 399 is entirely bogus!
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2025, 10:31:07 PM »


Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: I'm convinced - CE 399 is entirely bogus!
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2025, 11:01:13 PM »
https://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/04/index.html#CE399

Excerpt from above articles....

"...Since there's so much OTHER stuff (bullet-wise and shell-wise) that links Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano to the assassination, CTers who continue to want to believe that CE399 didn't really come out of Oswald's rifle when JFK's car passed through Dealey Plaza on November 22nd have a very large mountain to climb in order to advance the "399 Is A Fraud" conspiracy theory.

Because if CE567 and CE569 (the two front-seat bullet fragments linked conclusively to Oswald's rifle) are the Real McCoy (i.e., genuine evidence that wasn't tampered with in some manner)....

And: if the three bullet shells that were found by the police underneath the sniper's window on the sixth floor are also genuine....

Then common sense (plus the overall ODDS) would certainly indicate that it's very, very likely that Bullet #399 was ALSO a "genuine" article as well, with that whole bullet exiting Lee Harvey Oswald's gun at 12:30 PM on 11/22/63 in Dealey Plaza.

And if the CTers wish to travel down the "ALL OF THE CARCANO (C2766) BULLET EVIDENCE IS TAINTED" road, then they've got THREE "This Evidence Is Tainted" mountains to climb -- the "CE567/569" mountain; the "Shells In The Window" mountain; and the large hill marked "CE399" too.

I hope those CTers are in good shape and are really good mountain climbers. Because getting to the top of just ONE of those three Mount Everests is likely to give an average (and reasoned-thinking) person a coronary.

But that hasn't stopped certain conspiracy theorists from heading up that unclimbable series of
peaks. Has it?"
-- DVP; October 2007


CTers who continue to want to believe that CE399 didn't really come out of Oswald's rifle

I never believed that. Of course the bullet now in evidence as CE399 came from from the rifle found at the TSBD.

I'm just not convinced that that rifle belonged to Oswald or that the bullet Tomlinson found at Parkland is the same one now in evidence as CE 399

Because if CE567 and CE569 (the two front-seat bullet fragments linked conclusively to Oswald's rifle) are the Real McCoy (i.e., genuine evidence that wasn't tampered with in some manner)....

BS, Frazier was given those fragments and was told that they came from the limo. That's hardly "genuine evidence that wasn't tampered with in some manner"

And: if the three bullet shells that were found by the police underneath the sniper's window on the sixth floor are also genuine....

Which shells do you mean? The ones now in evidence or the ones Fritz threw down after having picked up the shells that were actually there?

Then common sense (plus the overall ODDS) would certainly indicate that it's very, very likely that Bullet #399 was ALSO a "genuine" article as well, with that whole bullet exiting Lee Harvey Oswald's gun at 12:30 PM on 11/22/63 in Dealey Plaza.

Oh boy... now you are speculating and making assumptions..... Not good at all!

I hope those CTers are in good shape and are really good mountain climbers. Because getting to the top of just ONE of those three Mount Everests is likely to give an average (and reasoned-thinking) person a coronary.

What mountains would that be? They seem to exist in your imagination only.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2025, 11:24:08 PM by Martin Weidmann »

Offline Lance Payette

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Re: I'm convinced - CE 399 is entirely bogus!
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2025, 01:16:01 AM »
(Edited to correct brain fart pointed out by DVP)

An individual on my dreaded Not Worth My Time (NWMT) list has chimed in with what we shall call the Tomlinson Deflection (or the Wright Deflection, as the case may be). Not content with my entirely CT-oriented stipulations, he has added the wrinkle that CE 399 was not planted at Parkland at all. At Parkland, employee Tomlinson actually found a pointy-headed .30 caliber bullet that he showed to employee Wright and that Wright gave to SS agent Johnsen. Ergo, CE 399 was fabricated by the conspirators at a later stage. (According to he who is NWMT, the pointy-headed bullet might have been evidence of a second gunman or even entirely unrelated to the JFKA – i.e., just a bullet from some other shooting. In either case, CE 399 was fabricated outside of Parkland.)

The Tomlinson Deflection is, of course, old news, dating back at least to Tink Thompson’s Six Seconds in Dallas (I have a signed copy!). See https://history-matters.com/essays/frameup/EvenMoreMagical/EvenMoreMagical.htm.

When Tink met with Wright in 1966, the latter said the found bullet was pointy-headed. This in itself seems problematical, since it would suggest the found bullet was pretty much as pristine as CE 399! Somewhat weirdly, or so it seems to me, Wright pulled a pointy-headed .30 caliber bullet out of his desk drawer as an example of what the found bullet had looked like! Oh, well, life is full of these little incongruities.

He who is NWMT accuses me of “making a lot of assumptions” whereas I was really only making entirely CT-oriented stipulations for the sake of discussion. Dissatisfied with my stipulations, he who is NWMT now assumes that (1) in his brief handling of the found bullet, Wright formed a sufficiently distinct image to speak confidently in 1966, and (2) when both Tomlinson and Wright said they could not identify CE 399 as the bullet found at Parkland, they did not simply mean “because we have no way of knowing if this is actually the same bullet” but rather “it looks nothing like the bullet we found” (an assumption Thompson also makes). Alternatively, everything Tomlinson and Wright said was true because Tomlinson actually did find a pointy-headed bullet and CE 399 never was at Parkland.

These seem to me like rather critical and dubious assumptions. My guess would be that Wright simply had a failure of recollection, perhaps due to seeing that pointy-headed bullet in his desk drawer day after day, but let’s play along and stipulate that Tomlinson actually found an intact, pointy-headed, .30 caliber bullet and not CE 399. (FWIW, a .30 caliber bullet is a mere 0.044” larger in diameter than a 6.5 bullet.)

The scenario then is: Pointy-headed bullet is found by Tomlinson and shown to Wright, Johnsen or someone else realizes it can’t have come from Oswald’s rifle but could be useful if the found-at-Parkland scenario is made to fit a bullet that did come from Oswald’s rifle, someone fires Oswald’s rifle into a tank of water or cotton wool to generate CE 399, the pointy-headed bullet is made to disappear, a chain of custody for CE 399 is fabricated, the SBT is formulated, and all is well in Conspiracy Land.

Sound good to you, my fellow epistemologically oriented CTers?

1.   Knowing Tomlinson and Wright have found and handled a pointy-headed bullet that looks entirely different from CE 399, the conspirators nevertheless adopt Tomlinson and Wright as the linchpins of a CE 399-was-found-at-Parkland scenario and yet leave them free to say CE 399 doesn’t look like the bullet they found? Why do the conspirators do this, why do they run these seemingly insane risks? Who decided this seemed like a good plan?

2.   Why do the conspirators need Tomlinson and Wright at all? Why don’t they just say the Tomlinson bullet was unrelated to the JFKA and have a SS agent (Landis!) say CE 399 was found in the limo or fell out of Connally’s pants? How does the Tomlinson-Wright scenario make anything better?

3.   Why do the conspirators need CE 399 at all? What does it add to the Lone Nut narrative? Why do they need another bullet from Oswald’s rifle? How do they know how many fragments may eventually be found in the limo or elsewhere in Dealey Plaza? What if CE 399 turns out to make things far worse?

4.   Why do the conspirators fire CE 399 into a tank of water or cotton wool? Since they have the luxury of time, why do they generate a bullet as problematical as CE 399? Why not fire into a dead cow or even a cadaver? Fire ten bullets until one looks "just right."

5.   Is CE 399 somehow critical to the SBT? Why? Isn’t it more of a problem for the SBT than a help? Had the SBT been formulated at this early date, long before it was even a gleam in Specter’s eye?

6.   Why create a chain of custody for CE 399 that includes Tomlinson and Wright at all? Just establish a chain of custody for the pointy-headed bullet and say it turned out to be unrelated to the JFKA. Even if we ignore Tomlinson and Wright, the chain of custody for CE 399 is problematical anyway (as Thompson pointed out). Why would there be any flaws in the chain of custody if CE 399 had been created outside of Parkland? The conspirators couldn’t even get that right?

This just goes nowhere – does it, my fellow CTers? It’s just ad hoc to the 32nd degree, isn’t it? We can do better than this – can’t we?
« Last Edit: April 15, 2025, 01:35:50 PM by Lance Payette »

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Re: I'm convinced - CE 399 is entirely bogus!
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2025, 01:16:01 AM »


Online David Von Pein

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Re: I'm convinced - CE 399 is entirely bogus!
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2025, 02:55:51 AM »
When Tink met with Tomlinson in 1966, the latter said the bullet he’d found was pointy-headed. .... Tomlinson pulled a pointy-headed .30 caliber bullet out of his desk drawer as an example of what the found bullet had looked like!

Lance,

You meant to say O.P. Wright in your above post, not Tomlinson.

But speaking of Tomlinson....

He (Darrell Tomlinson) told Ray Marcus in 1966 that the bullet he was shown by the FBI "appeared to be the same one" that he (Tomlinson) found on a stretcher at Parkland Hospital on 11/22/63.

Plus:

The fact that the FBI forthrightly admitted in their July 7, 1964, report (aka Warren Commission Exhibit No. 2011) that neither Darrell Tomlinson nor O.P. Wright could positively identify the CE399 bullet is a very good indication that there's nothing phony about any of the verbiage we see in CE2011.

https://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/12/marcus-tomlinson-interview-7-25-66.html

https://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/04/index.html#Darrell-Tomlinson-And-CE399
« Last Edit: April 15, 2025, 06:06:02 AM by David Von Pein »

Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: I'm convinced - CE 399 is entirely bogus!
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2025, 12:21:01 PM »
Lance,

You meant to say O.P. Wright in your above post, not Tomlinson.

But speaking of Tomlinson....

He (Darrell Tomlinson) told Ray Marcus in 1966 that the bullet he was shown by the FBI

"appeared to be the same one" that he (Tomlinson) found on a stretcher at Parkland Hospital on 11/22/63.

Plus:

The fact that the FBI forthrightly admitted in their July 7, 1964, report (aka Warren Commission Exhibit No. 2011) that neither Darrell Tomlinson nor O.P. Wright could positively identify the CE399 bullet is a very good indication that there's nothing phony about any of the verbiage we see in CE2011.

https://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/12/marcus-tomlinson-interview-7-25-66.html

https://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/04/index.html#Darrell-Tomlinson-And-CE399

He (Darrell Tomlinson) told Ray Marcus in 1966 that the bullet he was shown by the FBI

Yes, he did. But in the same interview he also said that he was only shown a bullet once and that was about a week after the shooting, by SAC Shanklin. At that time he may well have been shown the actual bullet he had found.
In his WC testimony, two years earlier, he also confirmed that he was only interviewed by the FBI once, he believed in late November.

The fact that the FBI forthrightly admitted in their July 7, 1964, report (aka Warren Commission Exhibit No. 2011) that neither Darrell Tomlinson nor O.P. Wright could positively identify the CE399 bullet is a very good indication that there's nothing phony about any of the verbiage we see in CE2011.

What else could SAC Shanklin have written in his airtel? That Tomlinson and Wright did identify the bullet? Bending the truth a bit is something he could perhaps get away with, but telling an outright lie and hoping he wouldn't be found out. Really?

We know now that Odum has denied ever having CE 399 or showing it to anybody for identification. There is no receipt signed by Odum for CE 399 nor is there a FD 302 written by Odum about this alleged encounter.
In 1966 O.V. Wright said that the bullet he received from Tomlinson was pointed (which the bullet now in evidence as CE 399 clearly isn't) and Tomlinson told Marcus in 1966 that he was only interviewed by the FBI once, in late November.

Now let me guess what your reply is going to be. O.V. Wright simply misremembered, as did Odum and Tomlinson just simply forgot that he was shown a bullet after his testimony had already been taken... Yeah, right!

So, let's take this thing a step further. When Specter took a deposition from Tomlinson he didn't show him CE 399 to identify it. In fact, CE 399 had not even been entered into evidence. That happened later during the testimony of Dr. Humes, who was in fact shown the bullet, "subject to later proof" that "this is the missile which has been taken from the stretcher".

Mr. SPECTER - Doctor Humes, I show you a bullet which we have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 399, and may I say now that, subject to later proof, this is the missile which has been taken from the stretcher which the evidence now indicates was the stretcher occupied by Governor Connally. I move for its admission into evidence at this time.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
(The article, previously marked Commission Exhibit No. 399 for identification, was received in evidence.)

But Specter never provided the proof to show the bullet was found at Parkland and he already knew that he wouldn't be able to do so as he had already desperately tried and failed to get confirmation from Tomlinson.

Why did Specter let a golden opportunity go by to get CE 399 identified by Tomlinson? I can only speculate about his reason(s), but it's likely to be the same one for not taking testimony from O.V. Wright.
Lawyers normally ask witnesses only questions for which they already know the answer.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2025, 05:54:10 PM by Martin Weidmann »

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Re: I'm convinced - CE 399 is entirely bogus!
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2025, 12:21:01 PM »


Offline Lance Payette

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Re: I'm convinced - CE 399 is entirely bogus!
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2025, 01:30:25 PM »
Lance,

You meant to say O.P. Wright in your above post, not Tomlinson.


Sorry about that! I'd better correct it or I'll appear to be fallible.  :D  I may consign myself to my own NWMT bin for a spell of purgatory. I see that he who is NWMT persistently refers to O. V. Wright rather than O. P., so apparently fallibility is contagious.

One of my little quirks is to ask, "So when did these people die?" Wright lived until 1974 and was only 67 when he died. Tomlinson lived until 1993 and was only 71 when he died. Painting with a broad brush, it often seems that the hordes of JFKA researchers prefer to debate endlessly what Wright and Tomlinson said in 1964 or 1966 than to make a serious effort to nail it down. Even the HSCA does not seem to have taken up the issue, even though Tomlinson seemingly would have been readily available. The article by Thomspon and Aguilar makes clear that they did considerable research on the FBI angle in the late 1990s, and Aguilar spoke with Odum by phone twice in 2002, but there seemingly was no additional follow-up before Tomlinson died. On an issue this central, wouldn't one think the HSCA or some serious researcher would attempt to really nail it down? Perhaps everyone just accepts the mystery and deals with it as best they can - which is why I think the critical questions are the "epistemological" ones that no one ever asks: "OK, stipulating to your version of what occurred, please explain how it makes any sense in the context of the conspiracy you posit."
« Last Edit: April 15, 2025, 01:47:41 PM by Lance Payette »

Offline Lance Payette

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Re: I'm convinced - CE 399 is entirely bogus!
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2025, 02:50:42 PM »
The fact that the FBI forthrightly admitted in their July 7, 1964, report (aka Warren Commission Exhibit No. 2011) that neither Darrell Tomlinson nor O.P. Wright could positively identify the CE399 bullet is a very good indication that there's nothing phony about any of the verbiage we see in CE2011.

https://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/12/marcus-tomlinson-interview-7-25-66.html

https://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/04/index.html#Darrell-Tomlinson-And-CE399

As you suggest, it seems to me that much supposed “evidence of conspiracy” actually points in the opposite direction.

I can sincerely stipulate that the condition of CE 399 in the context of the SBT is problematical, the recollections of Tomlinson and Wright are problematical, what Odum said is problematical, and the chain of custody of CE 399 is problematical even if we take Tomlinson and Wright out of the equation.

We then have to ask, “OK, what best explains all this?” If we say a conspiracy does, we then have to either answer the questions I have posed in a way that actually makes sense (which seems impossible to me) or hypothesize that the conspirators in a Presidential assassination were bungling fools who, again and again, made absurd decisions and couldn’t even cover their own tracks (which likewise seems impossible to me).

We are then left with the axiom that when you have eliminated the impossible, that which remains, improbable as it may be, is the truth. In the utter chaos of the JFKA, a considerable amount of confusion and human error was inevitable. Hence, I accept CE 399 as a bullet that was fired from Oswald’s rifle, was found at Parkland, and probably did what the SBT posits (although I’m not even sure this is essential to the LN narrative).

The bottom line being that the unlikely condition of CE 399 and the defects in the chain of custody actually cut in favor of authenticity. If there had been a conspiracy surrounding CE 399, it would not be in the condition it is in, it would not have been found at Parkland, the Tomlinson-Wright scenario and confusion would never have been part of the record, and the chain of custody would have been as clean as a whistle.

The inability of CTers to grasp this reality tells me that their agenda is something other than the truth about the JFKA.

Online Jon Banks

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Re: I'm convinced - CE 399 is entirely bogus!
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2025, 07:09:42 PM »
Anyone who believes the SBT = Gullible

And there are many reasons to doubt that CE399 struck both JFK and Connolly.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2025, 07:11:20 PM by Jon Banks »

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Re: I'm convinced - CE 399 is entirely bogus!
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2025, 07:09:42 PM »