Why CE399 is Entirely Bogus.

[Dan O'meara]

CE399 was NOT the bullet found by Darrell Tomlinson on a stretcher in Parkland Hospital.
Just to repeat that - CE399 was NOT the bullet found by Darrell Tomlinson on a stretcher in Parkland Hospital.
To suggest CE399 was planted on a stretcher in Parkland Hospital demonstrates an ignorance of this aspect of the case so staggering as to be complete.

How do we know CE399 was not the bullet found at Parkland?
O P Wright was an ex Dallas Police Chief. A man who knew his guns, knew his ammunition, knew the various types of bullet and calibers.
When Tomlinson handed him the bullet he had found, Wright knew exactly what he was looking at. Being an ex-cop he realized the potential importance of this bullet in terms of the assassination. This bullet was possibly the most important piece of ballistic evidence Wright had ever handled. He set about finding someone in authority to pass this potential evidence to and came across Secret Service agent Johnsen.

When questioned by Josiah Thompson, Wright categorically denied that CE399 was the bullet he handled that day. He didn't say he couldn't remember because he could remember what the bullet was like. He described it as a "hunting slug" with a pointed tip. He even provided Thompson with a similar bullet for comparison:



Around June of '64 Gordon Shanklin, special agent in charge of the Dallas Field Division of the FBI, visited Parkland personally and showed Tomlinson and Wright CE399. Both men refused to identify it as the bullet they handled that day.
Elmer Todd, the man who reportedly received CE399 from Secret Service Chief Rowley showed CE399 to Rowley, Johnsen, Wright and Tomlinson. ALL FOUR MEN refused to identify it as the bullet they handled that day.
The WC Sham 'forgot' to question any of these four men about the bullet found that day. Wright and Johnsen were never asked to testify. Rowley testified at length but was never asked to identify CE399. Unbelievably, Tomlinson, the man who discovered the bullet, was asked to testify before the WC Sham AND WASN'T ASKED A SINGLE QUESTION ABOUT THE BULLET ITSELF!!
He wasn't shown CE399 to identify it as the bullet he found that day.
He wasn't shown a picture of CE399 to identify.
He wasn't even asked to describe the bullet.

As astonishing as it may seem, CE399 was still admitted into evidence by the WC Sham even though nobody had identified it as such!
How does that work?

CE399 miraculously appears in the chain of evidence with Elmer Todd.
How? How does a bullet apparently fired from the assassination weapon, show up out of nowhere?
LNers believe that just because they accept that CE399 was the bullet Tomlinson found at Parkland, they have somehow side-stepped all the issues raised in this post.
BUT THEY HAVE NOT.
It isn't up to CTers to explain where CE399 came from.
It's up to LNers to explain where it came from in light of the mass of evidence demonstrating that CE399 was NOT the bullet found in Parkland Hospital.

It will be interesting to see which LNers are brave enough to tackle this thorny issue because it is a real problem for their overall theory and most LNers vanish when presented with facts that upset their pet theory.

[Tom Graves]

CE399 was NOT the bullet found by Darrell Tomlinson on a stretcher in Parkland Hospital.
Just to repeat that - CE399 was NOT the bullet found by Darrell Tomlinson on a stretcher in Parkland Hospital.
To suggest CE399 was planted on a stretcher in Parkland Hospital demonstrates an ignorance of this aspect of the case so staggering as to be complete.

How do we know CE399 was not the bullet found at Parkland?
O P Wright was an ex Dallas Police Chief. A man who knew his guns, knew his ammunition, knew the various types of bullet and calibers.
When Tomlinson handed him the bullet he had found, Wright knew exactly what he was looking at. Being an ex-cop he realized the potential importance of this bullet in terms of the assassination. This bullet was possibly the most important piece of ballistic evidence Wright had ever handled. He set about finding someone in authority to pass this potential evidence to and came across Secret Service agent Johnsen.

When questioned by Josiah Thompson, Wright categorically denied that CE399 was the bullet he handled that day. He didn't say he couldn't remember because he could remember what the bullet was like. He described it as a "hunting slug" with a pointed tip. He even provided Thompson with a similar bullet for comparison:



Around June of '64 Gordon Shanklin, special agent in charge of the Dallas Field Division of the FBI, visited Parkland personally and showed Tomlinson and Wright CE399. Both men refused to identify it as the bullet they handled that day.
Elmer Todd, the man who reportedly received CE399 from Secret Service Chief Rowley showed CE399 to Rowley, Johnsen, Wright and Tomlinson. ALL FOUR MEN refused to identify it as the bullet they handled that day.
The WC Sham 'forgot' to question any of these four men about the bullet found that day. Wright and Johnsen were never asked to testify. Rowley testified at length but was never asked to identify CE399. Unbelievably, Tomlinson, the man who discovered the bullet, was asked to testify before the WC Sham AND WASN'T ASKED A SINGLE QUESTION ABOUT THE BULLET ITSELF!!
He wasn't shown CE399 to identify it as the bullet he found that day.
He wasn't shown a picture of CE399 to identify.
He wasn't even asked to describe the bullet.

As astonishing as it may seem, CE399 was still admitted into evidence by the WC Sham even though nobody had identified it as such!
How does that work?

CE399 miraculously appears in the chain of evidence with Elmer Todd.
How? How does a bullet apparently fired from the assassination weapon, show up out of nowhere?
LNers believe that just because they accept that CE399 was the bullet Tomlinson found at Parkland, they have somehow side-stepped all the issues raised in this post.
BUT THEY HAVE NOT.
It isn't up to CTers to explain where CE399 came from.
It's up to LNers to explain where it came from in light of the mass of evidence demonstrating that CE399 was NOT the bullet found in Parkland Hospital.

It will be interesting to see which LNers are brave enough to tackle this thorny issue because it is a real problem for their overall theory and most LNers vanish when presented with facts that upset their pet theory.

Little Mucky Muck-Muck O'meara,

You're full of bloody beans and, whether you realize it or not, sixty-six years (it started in 1959) of Sun Tzu-based KGB* disinformation, "active measures," and "Inside Man" / "Outside Man" strategic deception counterintelligence operations waged against us and our NATO allies.

*Today's SVR and FSB

"It isn't up to CTers to explain where CE399 came from."

LOL!

Just admit it, Little Mucky Muck-Muck.

The only place it could reasonably have come from is the short-rifle of a former sharpshooting Marine and self-described Marxist by the name of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Question: Which evil, evil bad guy or really, really bad gal fired it, Muck, and when did they fire it -- before the assassination or during it?

[Lance Payette]

In other words, "I am completely unable to address the questions posed in Lance's thread on the same subject, so I'll start my own thread where I can piss into the wind all I want without being bothered with technicalities like 'Explain to us how that makes any sense.'"

Odd, isn't it, that the HSCA also accepted that CE 399 had been found on a stretcher at Parkland. Apparently, their ignorance was so staggering as to be complete. See page 45: https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/select-committee-report/part-1a.html.

[Dan O'meara]

In other words, "I am completely unable to address the questions posed in Lance's thread on the same subject, so I'll start my own thread where I can piss into the wind all I want without being bothered with technicalities like 'Explain to us how that makes any sense.'"

Odd, isn't it, that the HSCA also accepted that CE 399 had been found on a stretcher at Parkland. Apparently, their ignorance was so staggering as to be complete. See page 45: https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/select-committee-report/part-1a.html.

The HSCA also concluded Conspiracy but you choose what you want to believe.
It is noted that you haven't dealt with a single issue raised in the OP, let alone deal with them in totality.

Why did Wright insist the bullet that Tomlinson gave him was a pointed "hunting slug"?
Why did Tomlinson, Wright, Johnsen and Rowley - ALL FOUR MEN - refuse to identify CE399 as the bullet they handled that day?
Why didn't the WC ask any of these men to identify CE399 as the bullet they handled that day?
Why wasn't Tomlinson, the man who discovered the bullet, asked to identify CE399?
How was CE399 entered into evidence when not a single person identified as such?

Have a go at as many of these questions as you feel you can manage.
 

LATER EDIT: The HSCA didn't offer a scintilla of evidence to support the claim that CE399 was found at Parkland.
Zero. Nada.

[Dan O'meara]

If CE399 wasn't the bullet that became dislodged from JBC's leg wound, what bullet was it?
The answer to this question can be found in an article by Robert Harris -
https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/the-connally-bullet
It reveals a bullet, or large fragment of a bullet, fell from Connally's stretcher as he was moved onto the operating table.
This is the relevant passage from Harris' article:

But there is an even better reason why we can be quite certain that CE399 was not the bullet that wounded Governor Connally. The real bullet was found on the second floor and recovered by a nurse, who then passed it on to officer Bobby Nolan, who then delivered it to the Dallas Police department. The confirmation of this begins with Governor Connally. This is from his autobiography entitled, "In History's shadow".

"..the most curious discovery of all took place when they rolled me off the stretcher, and onto the examining table. A metal object fell to the floor, with a click no louder than a wedding band. The nurse picked it up and slipped it into her pocket. It was the bullet from my body, the one that passed though my back, chest and wrist and worked itself loose from my thigh.
There was enormous significance to that scrap of metal, but I can't be certain how many years later I understood the importance of it. I have always believed that three bullets found their mark. What happened in the hospital demonstrated how easily a bullet could have been swept aside and lost."

What the governor obviously didn't realize however, is that the bullet was not "swept aside". Certainly, the nurse who recovered it would not have just discarded the most important piece of forensic evidence she had ever handled. As it turned out, the Dallas District attorney arrived at the hospital, eager to find out how his old friend, Governor Connally was doing. It seems that he arrived at about the same time that the surgery on the governor was completed, when he ran into that same nurse who found the bullet. This is from an interview of Dallas District attorney, Henry Wade, by the Dallas Morning News.

"I also went out to see (Gov. John) Connally, but he was in the operating room. Some nurse had a bullet in her hand, and said this was on the gurney that Connally was on. I talked with Nellie Connally a while and then went on home.

Q: What did you do with the bullet? Is this the famous pristine bullet people have talked about?

A: I told her to give it to the police, which she said she would. I assume that's the pristine bullet."

The nurse promptly carried out the district attorney's instructions, passing the bullet to the nearest uniformed officer in sight, who happened to be Dallas Hwy Patrolman, Bobby Nolan, who was standing in the hallway talking to Connally aide, Bill Stinson. This is from my interview of Nolan in 2010:

"I was talking to a man who was one of governor Connally's aides. His name was - I think it was either Stinton or Stimmons (Bill Stinson). And he was an aide to the Governor. And she came up and told him that she had the bullet that came off of the gurney. Now I don't know what gurney. I think they meant Governor Connally's gurney. And she said, "What do you want me to do with it?" He and I were just sitting there in the hallway talking to me and said, "Give it to him"

Q. Was it a bullet fragment or a complete bullet?

Nolan: I don't know. It was a  - they told me that it was a bullet. And I don't know if it was a fragment of a bullet or a whole bullet because it was in a little, small brown envelope. And it was sealed and it was about, I'd say 2 by 3 inches. And it was in that envelope when I got it and I never did look at it or anything."

Q. Now when the nurse gave it to you, did she describe it as a bullet fragment or as a bullet.

Nolan: Uh no. She just said it was a bullet. That's all.

Nolan delivered the bullet to the Dallas Police department that evening, and the next morning, was interviewed by the FBI, who reported (emphasis is mine), Bobby M. Nolan, Texas highway patrolman, Tyler district, was interviewed relative to a bullet fragment removed from the left thigh of Governor Connally, which was turned over to him at Parkland Hospital in Dallas for delivery to the FBI.

JBC recalls a bullet or large fragment of a bullet falling to the floor while he was being transferred from his stretcher and a nurse picking it up. Wade recalls the nurse coming to him with it and telling her to give it to a police officer. Nolan, stood just outside where JBC was being operated on, talking to Connally's chief aide, Bill Stinson, recalls receiving the bullet from the nurse. Later that evening Nolan places the envelope he was given on the desk of Captain Fritz.

[Lance Payette]

... an ignorance of this aspect of the case so staggering as to be complete.

...

Around June of '64 Gordon Shanklin, special agent in charge of the Dallas Field Division of the FBI, visited Parkland personally and showed Tomlinson and Wright CE399. Both men refused to identify it as the bullet they handled that day.

Wrong, he who is NWMT and so blithely accuses others of ignorance. If you have evidence Shanklin personally visited Parkland and met with Tomlinson and Wright, please share it because you would have solved a rather large mystery.

In 1964, the WC formally requested the FBI to document the chain of custody of CE 399. According to an FBI routing slip, CE 399 was sent to Dallas on June 2, 1964 and returned to Washington on June 22, 1964.

On June 20, 1964, Shanklin sent an AIRTEL to Hoover dealing with several topics. Concerning CE 399, Shanklin stated that neither Tomlinson nor Wright "can identify bullet." Shanklin said no more than this. CONTRARY TO YOUR SELF-SERVING CT SPIN, he did not say "they refused to identify it as the bullet they handled that day." He also did not say that he had "personally" made the visit to Parkland.

The visit to Parkland was on June 12, 1964, as set forth in an FBI summary report for the WC dated July 7, 1964 (WC CE 2011). That memo states that the visit to Parkland was by FBI Special Agent Bardwell D. Odum. Concerning Tomlinson, CE 2011 states he said that CE 399 "appears to be" the bullet he found but he could not "positively identify" it as such. Wright is reported to have said that CE 399 "looks like" the found bullet but he likewise could not "positively identify" it as such. CONTRARY TO YOUR SELF-SERVING CT SPIN, neither man "refused to identify" the bullet.

You are also incorrect that Elmer Todd showed CE 399 to Tomlinson, Wright, Rowley and Johnsen. After CE 399 came back to Washington on June 22, Todd showed it to Rowley and Johnson on June 24, as set forth in CE 2011. CONTRARY TO YOUR SELF-SERVING CT SPIN that Rowley and Johnson "refused" to identify CE 399, CE 2011 merely states that each man "could not identify" that it was the one he had received.

"Could not identify" is standard chain-of-custody legalese. The witness either can or cannot identify the item. "Could not identify" implies nothing else, contrary to the spin that you (as well as Thompson and Aguilar) attempt to put on it.

One fly in the ointment is that in 1967 when Tink Thompson interviewed Wright, Wright insisted the found bullet had been a pointy-tipped hunting slug just like the one he weirdly produced from his desk drawer. Anyone can make of this what they will, but it seems just a bit unlikely that the found bullet was just as "pristine" as CE 399 but was not CE 399. Insofar as I know, there was no follow up by the HSCA or anyone else before Wright died in 1974 or Tomlinson died in 1993.

A second fly in the ointment, more relevant here, is that in 2002 an aged Odum denied to Thompson and Aguilar that he had ever gone to Parkland and shown CE 399 to Tomlinson and Wright as CE 2011 states. As far as I know, there was no follow up before Odum died in 2010. This of course is fodder for CT theorizing, but all it really suggests is that CE 2011 may have been in error and someone else may have gone to Parkland on June 12, 1964. (We do not know who wrote CE 2011.) No big deal, it seems to me, especially given the fact that both Shanklin's AIRTEL and CE 2011 candidly admit that neither Tomlinson nor Wright could positively identify CE 399, but if someone could show that Shanklin went (unlikely) the mystery would be solved.

It appears to me you do shlock research, put a foaming-at-the-mouth CT spin on everything, and thus are NWMT - unless, as here, I find it amusing to expose you.

[Lance Payette]

Here is an excellent piece by high-quality researcher Tom Gram concerning CE 2011:

https://investigatejfk.com/2025/01/14/ce2011-and-the-missing-302-reports/

He reviews all the relevant documents, and the article is well worth your time. This is what real research looks like.

Two points:

1. He agrees that Shanklin would not have gone to Parkland. He speculates that Odum's memory may simply have been faulty 38 years after the fact.

2. Most critically, he demolishes Thompson's and Aguilar's argument that there should be FBI 302 reports from all the WC-related 1964 interviews and that the absence of these is suspicious. In fact, the FBI was so overwhelmed with WC requests that they abandoned 302s unless these were specifically requested. Odum told Thompson and Aguilar that he surely would have prepared a 302 if he had done to Parkland - an indication that his memory may have been faulty.

[Zeon Mason]

So Lance argument is that the reason 4 men whom did not verify that CE 399 was the bullet they each had seen at an earlier time , is because they all had faulty memory?

And  the reason that FBI agent Odum denied ever having written the report alleging that  CE 399 was verified  by Tomlinson, is due to faulty memory and old age?

It seems improbable , but then there is Nurse Bell in a video recording stating how she saw a bullet on JFKs stretcher between his ear lobe and his shoulder. WTF?

Now THAT IS incredible faulty memory since she said nothing about that when officially interviewed about  the no. of fragments she put in that little brown envelope.