Prayer Woman

[Ray Mitcham]

Actually, it isn't Ray.

The vertical shadow on Lovelady is caused by the inner West side vertical support pillar.

O.K. What I thought was the end of left wall is actually a column. My bad. I was working off  a sketch, rather than a photo. but see now from the photos that it is indeed a column and not the end of the front wall. Semantics, however, as my argument still stands. Substitute column for end of left wall.

The sketch below shows the entrance I was working to and the thick black line shows the line of the shadow at 12.30.

[Barry Pollard]

We explored the shadow coming from above here in the last edition of this topic and we found that if you're not on the landing and around 5.9' it will not touch you.

Also if you believe that it is real shadow on BL then keep an eye out for an image taken i the next 3hrs that shows anyone in the same position being hit by anything similar, I posted the only one I could find and I'm not even certain that the thin dark patch on the young man's back is indeed shadow. Until I see proof I'll remain doubtful for now and of course it looks like shadow but Ray has really surprised me by saying it's coming from the west wall/pillar, how does work with all the aftermath images of the thin shadow on the steps and with Andej's model and like I say no evidence there on people in later images?

[Barry Pollard]

This would be the angle of the shadow line of that pillar if the "shadow" on BL is real. Just out of sight from Altgens and covering most all of the part of Loveday he couldn't see.


So no offence Ray but why are you still asking Brian what he thinks of the angle when you're now ageeing with him?
It also completely contradicts the sun angle Andrej has gone with.

[Duncan MacRae]

I disagree totally,, but nevertheless, show us your calculations or proof, Duncan.

Matters not anyway, as the shadow is still caused by the vertical edge of the doorway whether the outside or the inner vertical.

I meant to say inner West side Pillar.

I was thinking Virtually again, silly me, so you were correct to disagree. .

[Alan Ford]

Barry is right!

If the dark border going down nearly half of Lovelady in Wiegman is a shadow cast by the west entrance pillar, then Stancak's calculations are not just wrong but OUTLANDISHLY wrong.

Here's Stancak's reconstruction of the entrance:




Ignore the Prayer Man avatar. Shrink the Frazier avatar to 5'8" and bring him down to the top step by the center railing
-----------It's a complete non-starter that he's going to catch any shadow from the west pillar, let alone the 'shadow' we see going down Lovelady. No way. No how.




So my question for those arguing for a shadow is this:
What are your grounds for disagreeing with Stancak's calculations so radically?

Have you, for instance, anything from the photo record to support your TOTAL dismissal of his reconstructed doorway? Like Barry, I have searched and can find not a single image to support even the possibility of this being a shadow on Lovelady!

[Barry Pollard]

Just a word on the Hughes "Lovelady" Alan.
You need to see the cropped, zoomed in version of it. I have an idea where I saw it last.
Also since I promised you, I only have this which you probably have already seen, but I liked that's why...

Arrows aren't mine, I think it cleans up the frame a little rather than distort it but my opinion... and I'm not going to convince you with this alone but it looks to me(or did) like "his" right arm is away from the body. Frazier's arms in the same footage are clearly folded, they have that recognisable form but PM, not so much.


I've seen other versions of this where the person got similar results, so I'm not sure yet if it's bare arm or shirt but we can all see what the results suggest.

[Barry Pollard]

Sorry for the lame Altgens crop btw, just came to hand quickest, y'all know it and where to get better.

[Barry Pollard]

The sketch below shows the entrance I was working to and the thick black line shows the line of the shadow at 12.30.

Ray, do you believe Billy was as far east as he could get in Wiegman without crossing the central rail?
I do, so it's not adding up for me but I still think you and Andrej have the shadow line correct fwiw.