Prayer Woman

[Duncan MacRae]

As I was saying.

Has anyone, like Stancak or Kamp or Brian for example, who have announced that they have calculated the exact height of Prayer Person within an acceptable plus or minus tolerance level, taken the subjects Shoe/Boot Heel size into consideration when announcing these so called exact total height measurements for Prayer Person?

I would guess not.

If not, why not?........If yes, what are the speculative heel measurements?

This is a valid question that requires an answer otherwise all calculations from either side of the debate become invalid.

[Larry Trotter]

Brian, you're still not dealing with the fact that the first interrogation report states that LHO claimed to have been on the FIRST floor when the President passed the building! Why would LHO claim such a thing, knowing that a police officer and Mr Truly saw him just after that up in the second floor lunchroom? And how exactly would he have seen Jarman and Norman coming up in the WEST elevator?

An alternative reading of 'Fritz's notes', which Fritz actually cribbed from the FBI agent who co-wrote that first interrogation report:

Claims (he went to the) 2nd Floor (for a) coke. When (the) off(icer) came (running) in to (the) first fl.(oor) (he) had (was having) lunch out front with Bill Shelley.

The dialogue might have gone something like this:

FRITZ: Where did you go after you broke for lunch?
LHO: Well, I bought a coke in the lunch room on the second floor and then went down to the lunch room on the first floor.
FRITZ: Where were you when the President was assassinated?
LHO: I was down at the front entrance. A police officer came running in and asked me where the stairs were but my boss stepped up and brought him into the building. I was just having my lunch out with Bill Shelley and a few others in front there.

This would explain why the investigators took the Altgens photo, which appeared to show LHO in the doorway, so seriously. Did the Commie suspect have an ALIBI? Panic!

LHO confirmed to the pressman that he was "in the building at the time". If he'd gone down the steps and out onto the street he would have given a different answer!

"Alternative reading of Fritz's notes"? "Alternative"?

"The dialogue might have gone something like this:"? "Might have"?

"The Altgens photo, which appeared to show LHO in the doorway"? "Appeared to show LHO"?

[Alan Ford]

At first glance it looks like PrayerPerson hasn't changed posture or position between Wiegman and Darnell. But look closer! The left arm in Wiegman is appreciably lower than the 'left arm' in Darnell!

My take:
----------------Prayer Man in Wiegman
has become
----------------Crisscross Man in Darnell!

Now! Prayer Man's right elbow is HIGHER in Darnell than in Wiegman, yes?



I submit, friends, that this is because Prayer Man in Wiegman has crossed his arms by the time of Darnell!
What LOOKS like his left elbow/forearm in Darnell...


...is NOT his left elbow/forearm
-------------------it's too high to be his left elbow/forearm!


That's because it's
-------------------the object he is still holding in his RIGHT hand
-------------------the object he brought to his mouth in Wiegman!

   

[Barry Pollard]

Barry - we're expected to believe in real life that the person up there held that awkward position from the time the two films were shot?  Possibly 30-45 seconds? I don't think so, Barry. If the person up there was genuinely interested in being there to see the president go by, why in the world would a person shorter than the other taller guy be standing down with one foot on the step? It's illogical and doesn't make sense.

Michael, there is nothing in Weigman that suggests PM was facing anywhere other than directly forward, his whole body, so both feet are on the same step at that time, then two woman come racing up to the bottom of the steps and others are heading that way too, so PM perhaps turns to his left to give them more room to pass by, the best way to do that on those thin steps is by putting one foot up on the next one. That's all we're seeing IMO  if Stancak has his leg correct.

[Barry Pollard]

Fair enough, Barry, though in a stabilized version I would expect at least one point in the image (e.g. the white pillar) to be fixed? Either way, any movement in PrayerPerson's body seems to correspond to movement of fixed structures like the wall. Darnell's camera moves, changing the angle slightly.

Alan, if you study the full version of the Darnell footage that that small crop most likely came from you can focus on the traffic light and sign posts on the island and see they are lined up in each frame. However, zoom in on those same items and you'll see that they are moving not much but enough, they're  "breathing", the footage goes in and out of focus all the time, everything is breathing, it's live. Now in my own limited experience with it when I tried to duplicate Gerda's techniques I found that the wall near PM was the worst thing to use as a focus point not only is it breathing, it creates duplicates of itself so you cannot tell which one is the real wall/pillar in many frames.
PM's arms or hands could be moving but yes I agree, since everything else is when it shouldn't be, I'm not 100% sure.
As to your folded arms idea in one of the better frames it looks as though he/she has the right arm away from the body I'll try and find it.

[Barry Pollard]

Barry, I agree that Stancak has done some terrific work on this but I think Brian is right (it happens now and then!) about the left leg's blocking the radiator in his suggested model of Prayer Man's posture in Darnell. This is a real problem as Darnell shows an unblocked radiator.

Above link's not working Alan but I noticed you pointed this out earlier in a Dfilm frame as did Brian but he couldn't post an example, I see what you do in that frame but I'm just not as sure as you are it's the radiator. I see a line beside it's leg or on it, can't tell if it's significant or not, is it visable in only one frame? "ARTIFACT!", Again not sure but would love to see more.

Here's one for you my man.
You say that Lovelady is only one step lower than PM but in another gif you show him on a higher step, appearing equally as tall as PM, do you see any problem there?
BL was, by the rumours I've heard including BWF, shorter than LHO.  That 5.2' estimate from Buell to Gary has to be a mistake though surely,

[Alan Ford]

Alan, if you study the full version of the Darnell footage that that small crop most likely came from you can focus on the traffic light and sign posts on the island and see they are lined up in each frame. However, zoom in on those same items and you'll see that they are moving not much but enough, they're  "breathing", the footage goes in and out of focus all the time, everything is breathing, it's live. Now in my own limited experience with it when I tried to duplicate Gerda's techniques I found that the wall near PM was the worst thing to use as a focus point not only is it breathing, it creates duplicates of itself so you cannot tell which one is the real wall/pillar in many frames.
PM's arms or hands could be moving but yes I agree, since everything else is when it shouldn't be, I'm not 100% sure.

Thanks for the clarification about this being a crop, Barry, makes sense.

As to your folded arms idea in one of the better frames it looks as though he/she has the right arm away from the body I'll try and find it.

[Alan Ford]

Here's one for you my man.
You say that Lovelady is only one step lower than PM but in another gif you show him on a higher step, appearing equally as tall as PM, do you see any problem there?
BL was, by the rumours I've heard including BWF, shorter than LHO.  That 5.2' estimate from Buell to Gary has to be a mistake though surely,

I don't see any problem at all there, Barry. Lovelady was 5'8". Very pleasing to see a frame of him side by side with Prayer Man in which their heights are very close!