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Author Topic: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?  (Read 21038 times)

Offline Michael Carney

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Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
« Reply #64 on: August 31, 2020, 09:11:10 PM »
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Then you believe his shot went through the Queen Mary followup-car's windshield. 

No, I believe it went over it

Line drawing of the Hickey shot from the "Mortal Error" book (flipped for comparison purposes) and superimposed over a Bronson film frame. Agents were seated too low to accord with the "Mortal Error" drawing.

Hickey and the other agent were sitting on top of the backrest with their feet on the seat. Hickey stood up, the car decelerated, he lost his balance, and he naturally responded, reflex reaction, and grabbed onto the grip and trigger thus squeezing off a round.

Clint Hill was halfway to JFK's limo and the agent in the back with Hickey was looking to his right at the time of the shot.

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Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
« Reply #64 on: August 31, 2020, 09:11:10 PM »


Offline Michael Carney

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Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
« Reply #65 on: September 01, 2020, 01:52:29 PM »

This photo shows Hickey with the AR15 after he fired the bullet. You can see Hill on the trunk of the limo. So this is after Hickey had stood up on the seat and has since fallen backwards. So he was much higher when the gun went off.

Here you can see Hill running towards the limo and you can see how far back the follow-up car backed off and doing so is probably what caused Hickey to lose his balance.

The analysis by Pat Speer showing otherwise is flawed? Or the Bronson film is a forgery?
Please direct me to where I can see Pat Speer showing otherwise and the Bronson film.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2020, 02:12:20 PM by Mike Carney »

Offline Michael Carney

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Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
« Reply #66 on: September 01, 2020, 07:35:12 PM »
Pat Speer
"The Kennedy detail forcefully removed Kennedy's body from the hospital at the request of the Kennedy entourage, with the blessing of the new President, Lyndon B. Johnson. Kellerman's taking control of the medical evidence was performed under orders from the President's physician, George Burkley, almost certainly at the request of the Kennedy family."

Who was the “Kennedy detail”?  Who was the “Kennedy entourage”? It was Jackie Kennedy and the Secret Service. The author is just word smiting to pull the wool over our eyes so nothing there.

"The President's brain was kept at Bethesda until it could be further studied, after which Dr. Burkley, now working for President Johnson, gave it to the Secret Service Protective Research Section, where it remained until 1965. So yes, McLaren was unfair in accusing Kellerman of running off with the President's brain. Kellerman never had it in his possession."

This was just McLaren’s understanding and has nothing to do with Hickey or the shot.

“The First Shot Miss”

Again nothing to do with Hickey or the shot.

“The Second Shot Miss”

Again nothing to do with Hickey or the shot.

“Re-inspecting Number 2”

 Again nothing to do with Hickey or the shot.

“The Third Shot Miss”

"He cites S.M. Holland's initial statement that "After the first shot the secret service man raised up in the seat with a machine gun and then dropped back down in the seat" as evidence Hickey shot Kennedy. He fails to tell his viewers that Holland also claimed to see "a puff of smoke come from the trees" after this first shot, and no other puff of smoke. That's right. The smoke observed by Holland and others while standing atop the railroad bridge came from behind the picket fence on the grassy knoll. So how can McLaren cite them as support a rifle was fired in the middle of the plaza? He can't. So he doesn't. He claims ten witnesses "at ground level" smelled gunpowder, but never lists them."

I will list them:
Witnesses to smelling gunpowder at street level:
•   Ralph Yarborough was in the car two cars behind the Presidents car and said he smelled gunpowder. He is a war veteran with more than 50 years experience with fire arms. WC Vol VII, pg 439
•   Earl Brown, Dallas Police Patrolman – “Heard shot’s and then smelled gunpowder” WC Vol VI, pg 233
•   Elizabeth Cabell, wife of Dallas mayor, said “acutely aware of the smell of gunpowder”  WC Vol VII, pg 486
•   Billy J. Martin, patrolman - “You could smell the gunpowder… you knew he wasn’t far away. When you’re that close, you can smell the powder burning. Why you—you’ve got to be pretty close to them… you could smell the gunpowder… right there in the street.”  http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/19948-the-smell-of-gunpowder-in-dealey-plaza-from-murder-from-within-wind-speed-direction/ 8-30-2012
•   Congressman Ray Roberts, seated next to her, had mentioned it also. Same source as Martin
•   Tom C. Dillard, two cars behind the Cabell car, he “. . . very definitely smelled gunpowder when the cars moved up to the corner [of Elm and Houston Streets] Same source as Martin
•   Virgie Rackley stood in front of the depository building close to the street. “She recalled that after the second shot, she smelled gun smoke…” same source as Martin
•   One newspaper summed it up: “. . . seconds later the cavalcade was gone. The area still reeked with the smell of gunpowder.” Same source as Martin

“He cites Jean Hill's statements as evidence a member of the Secret Service fired a weapon. He fails to tell his viewers that Hill thought the first shot hit Kennedy in the head, and that she thought some or all of the shots she heard after he was hit in the head may have been fired by the Secret Service in retaliation.”

Yeah, that would be Hickey

“He wonders whether Hugh Betzner's recollection he saw "a flash of pink" wasn't a reference to the muzzle blast from Hickey's rifle. that the flash of pink which Betzner observed, while standing 200 feet or so back behind the limousine at the moment of the head shot, was the pink-suited Mrs. Kennedy climbing out onto the back of the limousine, and then crawling back to her seat”.
The “flash of pink” was JFK’s brains be blown out and Hickey falling back down into his seat.
“Margaret Chisolm – Two men stood up and sat back down”


All he is saying is what she saw, we don’t know if McLaren tried to contact her or not.

“Bill and Gayle Newman - The sound of a shot from Hickey's position would have come straight to their left ears. And yet they thought this shot came from behind.”

This can be easily mistaken. Their heads were turned and they heard it through their left ears.

“Dave Powers - “Someone a foot away from me or two feet away from me couldn’t fire a gun without me hearing it.”

Powers was not on the car at the time, he was running towards the JFK limo at the time Hickey fired the AR15. Look at the photo of Hickey holding the gun and Powers on the trunk of the JFK limo.
 
“Bronson film”

I can’t make out anything in the Bronson film.

“The Whole Program Miss”

Regardless where the bullet entered the back of JFK’s head, we did see the result of a frangible round blowing his head apart. And with all the melon experiments we saw what happens, small hole in the back of the head and an explosion out the front.

The purpose of Pat Speer’s “story” was to discredit Colin McLaren, Harold Donahue, and the findings in Mortal Error by Bonar Menninger. Again you have a dozen or so witnesses that smelled gun smoke, not car exhaust, gun smoke in the motorcade in line with the air flow on the motorcade. You have a dozen or so witnesses that saw Hickey with the gun, some of which thought he had fired it. That AR15 Hickey was holding was the only known source of the bullet that did that kind of damage to a human head.

Now you please tell me where the gun smoke and the frangible round came from?

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Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
« Reply #66 on: September 01, 2020, 07:35:12 PM »


Offline Michael Carney

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Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
« Reply #67 on: September 01, 2020, 07:38:45 PM »
"Fanciful recreation from a movie".

I didn't realize that....... and I was wondering about Jackies......... thought it should have been smaller than that, lol

Offline Michael Carney

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Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
« Reply #68 on: September 02, 2020, 01:20:16 AM »
“Speer seems to think there was actual "smoke" seen on the knoll. His Donahue/Hickey analysis is more grounded. Hard to argue with photos and film.”

Hard to argue with a bunch of witnesses also.

“Could have been car and motorcycle exhaust from when the front of the motorcycle accelerated out of the kill zone. Knowing a gun had recently been fired might have subconsciously "colored" any similar smell.”

People always try to use this argument but the two gases are distinctly different. Gun powder has sulfur in it and car exhaust does not. There were several people with lots of weapons experience in the witness list, they know the different smells.

“Seems to me she's assuming certain things happened.”


Hard to say what she was thinking being under fire and all. There were plenty of other witnesses that thought Hickey had fired the gun.

“I take it you mean Agent Clint Hill. Powers was sat on the passenger-side jump-seat.”

I did mean Clint Hill

“How convenient. Can only show you the water, not make you drink.”


Sorry but it is blurry as hell.

“I personally think a Carcano 6.5mm bullet could account for the trail of fragments in the President's skull.”


Now you are a ballistics expert? Look I did a rough comparison between FMJ fragments and frangible fragments. In one hand you have a few pebbles and in the other hand you have20 or so coffee grounds, they are totally different. Ballistics expert after ballistics expert stated that FMJ rounds do not fragment when they hit a skull.

“And I don't believe there was "gun smoke" seen on the knoll or at the fence.”

You don’t believe it! Well there were plenty of witnesses that did so your “belief” doesn’t count.

“The collapse of the Donahue/Hickey Theory isn't much important.”

Dream on, it didn’t collapse, until you can tell me where the gun smoke came from and where the frangible round from the back came from, it’s alive and well.

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Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
« Reply #68 on: September 02, 2020, 01:20:16 AM »


Offline Jerry Freeman

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Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
« Reply #69 on: September 03, 2020, 04:56:06 AM »
Quote
Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
Speculation...Upon hearing that JFK 'didn't have long', Allen Dulles probably refreshed his pipe and went back to reading. 

Offline Jerry Freeman

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Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
« Reply #70 on: September 03, 2020, 05:05:26 AM »
 
Fanciful recreation from a movie.
Surely Jackie's backside wasn't that big  :-\

Offline Jerry Freeman

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Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
« Reply #71 on: September 03, 2020, 02:53:02 PM »
Witnesses to smelling gunpowder at street level:
 Ralph Yarborough was in the car two cars behind the Presidents car and said he smelled gunpowder. He is a war veteran with more than 50 years experience with fire arms. WC Vol VII, pg 439
I have read that affidavit several times before and fail to see where he said anything about 'gunpowder', 'smoke', or 'smelling' anything.
In fact the senator gave in to 'three shots' and ' they were coming from high back at the building'.
Something Mrs Cabell was not supposed to say...
Quote
Mr. HUBERT. And it was about that time that you observed the odor?
Mr. CABELL. Of gunpowder.
Mr. HUBERT. That was when your car at least had come to a standstill?
Mr. CABELL. Every car in the motorcade had come to a standstill.

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Re: Did the CIA assassinate JFK?
« Reply #71 on: September 03, 2020, 02:53:02 PM »