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Author Topic: Can anybody provide proof of a successful reenactment of Oswald's feat?  (Read 69226 times)

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Can anybody provide proof of a successful reenactment of Oswald's feat?
« Reply #192 on: February 25, 2021, 06:39:59 PM »
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Points to Ponder:

It's impossible to replicate two very closely fired shots like the first and second shots with an old-fashioned gun as was supposedly used. I'm not a big fan of the witness statements because many people were not expecting this to happen [obviously] so they heard and saw this is not entirely accurate. But Connally swore until the day he died that the first shot was not the one that hit him. And the Z film backs this up.

Pat Speer did a good job of researching and finding that it'd be next to impossible for Oswald to have gone down the stairs immediately after the shooting and to have not been seen by one of the black co-workers. Look it up on his site.

There were shooting reenactments on a CBS TV special from back in the 60s and none of these so-called sharpshooters could replicate Oswald's amazingly accurate shooting...but equally amazing miss.

But speaking of the miss, I do speculate that the Tague "chips on the cheek" story could not be 100% accurate. I find it very hard to believe that a shot hit that far off target, causing the chips to fly up.

It's impossible to replicate two very closely fired shots like the first and second shots with an old-fashioned gun as was supposedly used.

Absolutely true , Mr Walton.  Even if the scope had been precisely aligned and the rifle in perfect working order,,,,,  It would have been impossible to fire three shots in six seconds. (or even 10 seconds)   Many researchers have established this fact ... I own several carcano's and I know that the carcano is a very poor rifle to try to use as a rapid fire, accurate weapon...  I'd bet that you couldn't find anybody who could replicate the feat that Lee Oswald is accused of accomplishing.

If you're willing to examine some evidence with an open mind ( not one that has preconceived ideas embedded ) I can prove beyond a shadow of doubt that the carcano was buried beneath boxes of books at the time of the shooting.

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Re: Can anybody provide proof of a successful reenactment of Oswald's feat?
« Reply #192 on: February 25, 2021, 06:39:59 PM »


Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: Can anybody provide proof of a successful reenactment of Oswald's feat?
« Reply #193 on: February 25, 2021, 07:02:36 PM »
Marina never said anything about "dry firing", nor do we even know what rifle he had in New Orleans.

Mrs. OSWALD. No. I know for sure that he didn't. But I know that we had a kind of a porch with a---screened-in porch, and I know that sometimes evenings after dark he would sit there with his rifle. I don't know what he did with it. I came there by chance once and saw him just sitting there with his rifle. I thought he is merely sitting there and resting. Of course I didn't like these kind of little jokes.
. . .
Mr. RANKIN. From what you observed about his having the rifle on the back porch, in the dark, could you tell whether or not he was trying to practice with the telescopic lens?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I asked him why. But this time he was preparing to go to Cuba.
. . .
. . .
Mr. RANKIN. You have described your husband's practicing on the back porch at New Orleans with the telescopic scope and the rifle, saying he did that very regularly there.
Did you ever see him working the bolt, that action that opens the rifle, where you can put a shell in and push it back- during those times?
Mrs. OSWALD. I did not see it, because it was dark, and I would be in the room at that time.
But I did hear the noise from it from time to time not often.

I never said anything about Marina and dryfiring. I doubt she would even know what is meant by dryfiring. Marina said he practiced with the rifle on the porch.

The WC examining CE 543 and discussing his Marine Corp training believed he was dryfiring.

Dry firing:  All Dr Chapman did was look at the primer of CE 543 and noticed it was dished. If it is dished in that means the firing pin had struck the shell more than once. The reason for dry firing is to practice without actually firing the rifle.  Major Anderson of the Marine Corp explained dry firing to the WC and how much of it LHO would have done while being trained in the Marine Corp training.

Dr Chapman after examing CE 543 and its primer stated the shell had been dryfired.



Mr. EISENBERG. Somebody had done one operation, in your opinion, with this cartridge at three different times?
Mr. NICOL. Right.
Mr. EISENBERG. Now, just to set this in context, I have taken the bolt from Commission Exhibit 139, the rifle found on the sixth floor, and could you show the Commission what the extractor is on this bolt?
Mr. NICOL. The extractor is this semicircular piece extending back in the bolt, and its purpose is to withdraw the cartridge from the chamber at the time that the bolt is drawn back. It rides in the extractor groove, which is machined in the head of the cartridge case. At the time that the weapon is loaded, oftentimes this springs around, it first contacts the rim of the cartridge case, and then springs around the rim of the cartridge and produces marks such as these, or marks such as I have illustrated on the three sets.
Mr. EISENBERG. Now, is it possible that the reason the marks were present on this cartridge but not on the other cartridge case on this cartridge case but not on the other cartridge cases you examined--is because these marks were produced by dry firing as opposed to actual firing?
Mr. NICOL. This is possible. The weight of the empty shell would be different of course from one which had a projectile in it, so that its dynamics might be different, and it might produce a different mark-- although in the absence of accessibility of the weapon, or the absence of these marks on the tests, I really am unable to say what is the precise origin of those marks, except to speculate that they are probably from the extractor, and that the second mark that appears here, which I have indicated with a similar number, is probably an ejector mark. Now, this, I might add, is a different type of ejector mark than the mark found on the rim from the normal firing of these tests and the evidence cartridges.
Mr. EISENBERG. Now, you stated that another mark appeared in all three associated in juxtaposition with the three marks you have been describing?
Mr. NICOL. Yes; and in the same angular relationship to a radii through the center of the head.
Mr. EISENBERG. Now, again, if it is an ejector mark, might the difference have been caused by the fact that it may have been associated with a dry firing rather than an actual firing?
Mr. NICOL. That might be possible.
Mr. EISENBERG. Do you think a person would apply a different bolt pressure in a dry firing as opposed to an actual firing?
Mr. NICOL. Well, since this is a manually operated weapon, it is quite possible that no two operations are done with exactly the same force. However, with reasonable reproduceability, all these marks appear to the same depth and to the same extent, so that it would appear that whatever produced them operated in identically the same fashion.

Mr. EISENBERG. Do you have anything you would like to add to your testimony on the rifle bullets or the rifle cartridge cases, Mr. Nicol?
Mr. NICOL. No, sir; I don't think so.

Mr. SPECTER - What do you mean by live firing, sir?
Major ANDERSON - By live firing I mean any time a live round of ammunition is actually placed in the gun and it is fired.
Mr. SPECTER - Is that distinguished from some other type of firing, or heavy firing?
Major ANDERSON - Yes; it is distinguished from what we call dry firing in that no ammunition is used whatsoever. A man just simulates

Mr. SPECTER - Would you outline the marksmanship training, if any, which a Marine recruit receives in the normal course of Marine training?
Major ANDERSON - He goes through a very intensive 3 weeks training period. During this 3 weeks for the first week he receives a basic training in the care and cleaning of the weapon. He learns sighting and aiming. He learns manipulation of the trigger.
He is exposed to various training aids. He goes through a series of exercises in what we call dry firing in which he assumes all of the positions that he is going to use in the full firing of the rifle over the qualification course


Based on LHO's Marine Corp training he had dryfired a great deal.



Offline Michael Walton

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Re: Can anybody provide proof of a successful reenactment of Oswald's feat?
« Reply #194 on: February 25, 2021, 08:27:02 PM »
The larger point of this thread is:

Can anybody provide proof of a successful reenactment of Oswald's feat?

There are plenty of articles out there about whether it was possible or not. Here is one very detailed one:

http://www.patspeer.com/chapter-4g-thoughts-on-the-shots

Dry firing has nothing to do with it. The point is - did LHO bring in an unassembled rifle, put it together, have the scope misaligned, have no time to test fire it to align the scope, set up the boxes, do his normal clerk duties, ask a co-worker what all of the people down on the street were for, reply, "Oh, OK," know when the car would come by, fire three shots, miss wildly on one, shoot two others very closely together with a bolt-action rifle that many others who tried it [like above] couldn't do, hide the weapon, scamper down the steps, be out in the vestibule while the shooting was going on, tell the cops later he "...ate his lunch and then went out to watch the P parade...", buy a Coca Cola in the lunch room, be confronted by a cop and walk out the door?


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Re: Can anybody provide proof of a successful reenactment of Oswald's feat?
« Reply #194 on: February 25, 2021, 08:27:02 PM »


Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Can anybody provide proof of a successful reenactment of Oswald's feat?
« Reply #195 on: February 25, 2021, 08:31:06 PM »
I never said anything about Marina and dryfiring. I doubt she would even know what is meant by dryfiring. Marina said he practiced with the rifle on the porch.

The WC examining CE 543 and discussing his Marine Corp training believed he was dryfiring.

Dry firing:  All Dr Chapman did was look at the primer of CE 543 and noticed it was dished. If it is dished in that means the firing pin had struck the shell more than once. The reason for dry firing is to practice without actually firing the rifle.  Major Anderson of the Marine Corp explained dry firing to the WC and how much of it LHO would have done while being trained in the Marine Corp training.

Dr Chapman after examing CE 543 and its primer stated the shell had been dryfired.



Mr. EISENBERG. Somebody had done one operation, in your opinion, with this cartridge at three different times?
Mr. NICOL. Right.
Mr. EISENBERG. Now, just to set this in context, I have taken the bolt from Commission Exhibit 139, the rifle found on the sixth floor, and could you show the Commission what the extractor is on this bolt?
Mr. NICOL. The extractor is this semicircular piece extending back in the bolt, and its purpose is to withdraw the cartridge from the chamber at the time that the bolt is drawn back. It rides in the extractor groove, which is machined in the head of the cartridge case. At the time that the weapon is loaded, oftentimes this springs around, it first contacts the rim of the cartridge case, and then springs around the rim of the cartridge and produces marks such as these, or marks such as I have illustrated on the three sets.
Mr. EISENBERG. Now, is it possible that the reason the marks were present on this cartridge but not on the other cartridge case on this cartridge case but not on the other cartridge cases you examined--is because these marks were produced by dry firing as opposed to actual firing?
Mr. NICOL. This is possible. The weight of the empty shell would be different of course from one which had a projectile in it, so that its dynamics might be different, and it might produce a different mark-- although in the absence of accessibility of the weapon, or the absence of these marks on the tests, I really am unable to say what is the precise origin of those marks, except to speculate that they are probably from the extractor, and that the second mark that appears here, which I have indicated with a similar number, is probably an ejector mark. Now, this, I might add, is a different type of ejector mark than the mark found on the rim from the normal firing of these tests and the evidence cartridges.
Mr. EISENBERG. Now, you stated that another mark appeared in all three associated in juxtaposition with the three marks you have been describing?
Mr. NICOL. Yes; and in the same angular relationship to a radii through the center of the head.
Mr. EISENBERG. Now, again, if it is an ejector mark, might the difference have been caused by the fact that it may have been associated with a dry firing rather than an actual firing?
Mr. NICOL. That might be possible.
Mr. EISENBERG. Do you think a person would apply a different bolt pressure in a dry firing as opposed to an actual firing?
Mr. NICOL. Well, since this is a manually operated weapon, it is quite possible that no two operations are done with exactly the same force. However, with reasonable reproduceability, all these marks appear to the same depth and to the same extent, so that it would appear that whatever produced them operated in identically the same fashion.

Mr. EISENBERG. Do you have anything you would like to add to your testimony on the rifle bullets or the rifle cartridge cases, Mr. Nicol?
Mr. NICOL. No, sir; I don't think so.

Mr. SPECTER - What do you mean by live firing, sir?
Major ANDERSON - By live firing I mean any time a live round of ammunition is actually placed in the gun and it is fired.
Mr. SPECTER - Is that distinguished from some other type of firing, or heavy firing?
Major ANDERSON - Yes; it is distinguished from what we call dry firing in that no ammunition is used whatsoever. A man just simulates

Mr. SPECTER - Would you outline the marksmanship training, if any, which a Marine recruit receives in the normal course of Marine training?
Major ANDERSON - He goes through a very intensive 3 weeks training period. During this 3 weeks for the first week he receives a basic training in the care and cleaning of the weapon. He learns sighting and aiming. He learns manipulation of the trigger.
He is exposed to various training aids. He goes through a series of exercises in what we call dry firing in which he assumes all of the positions that he is going to use in the full firing of the rifle over the qualification course


Based on LHO's Marine Corp training he had dryfired a great deal.

 Marina said he practiced with the rifle on the porch. 

She said she heard the bolt being operated ....  That's not dry firing...  The sound of the bolt being operated on a dark porch at night means nothing

Based on LHO's Marine Corp training he had dryfired a great deal.

If you were a bit more familiar with the Carcano then you might not appear to be such an ignoramus...

The Mannlicher carcano cannot be "dryfired" by using a spent shell...( one without a projectile)

This is a fact....  And I'll tell you why the carcano cannot be dryfired if you'd like..... Or you can research it for yourself and then acknowledge your ignorance.

Offline Jerry Freeman

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Re: Can anybody provide proof of a successful reenactment of Oswald's feat?
« Reply #196 on: February 25, 2021, 08:32:26 PM »
The commission did believe her. What that means is he spent a great deal of time dry firing the rifle. Dry firing the rifle is practicing.
No they didn't and no it's not.

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Re: Can anybody provide proof of a successful reenactment of Oswald's feat?
« Reply #196 on: February 25, 2021, 08:32:26 PM »


Offline Jerry Freeman

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Re: Can anybody provide proof of a successful reenactment of Oswald's feat?
« Reply #197 on: February 25, 2021, 08:57:36 PM »
     MARINA said she had never seen OSWALD practice with his rifle or any other firearm and he had never told her that he was going to practice.(Warren Commission Hearings, vol.22, p.763 [Commission Exhibit 1401])
     She cannot recall that he [Oswald] ever practised firing the rifle either in New Orleans or in Dallas. She does not think he did practice in New Orleans because as a rule he stayed home when he was not working. When he did go out, she did not see him take the rifle.  [Commission Exhibit 1403]
     The reporting agent interviewed Marina Oswald as to whether she knew of any place or of a rifle range where her husband could do some practicing with a rifle, and whether she ever saw her husband taking the rifle out of the house. She said that she never saw Lee going out or coming in to the house with a rifle and that he never mentioned to her doing any practice with a rifle. (Warren Commission Hearings, vol.23, p.393 [Commission Exhibit 1785]
     Marina Oswald was asked if she ever saw her husband doing any dry practice with the rifle either in their apartments or any place else, and she replied in the negative.  [Commission Exhibit 1789]

     Marina changed her tune when she testified...MARINA advised that OSWALD had told her after the WALKER incident that he had practiced with his rifle in a field near Dallas. She said further that in the beginning of January, 1963, at the Neely Street address, he on one occasion was cleaning his rifle and he said he had been practicing that day. She said [that] on an evening in March, 1963, … OSWALD left the house at about 6:00PM. OSWALD had his rifle wrapped up in a raincoat … When OSWALD returned about 9:00PM, he told her he had practiced with the rifle. She said [that] on an evening in March, 1963, … OSWALD left the house at about 6:00PM. OSWALD had his rifle wrapped up in a raincoat … When OSWALD returned about 9:00PM, he told her he had practiced with the rifle. Warren Commission Hearings, vol.22, p.197 [Commission Exhibit 1156] 
     Unfortunately, the rifle which Marina Oswald had apparently watched her husband clean early in January 1963 did not [reportedly] come into his possession until more than two months later, toward the end of March (Warren Report, p.119)
    The Warren Commission was aware that many of Marina Oswald’s statements were contradictory and unreliable, and that she was under pressure to tell the authorities what they wanted to hear. According to an internal Warren Commission document, which became public 15 years after it was written, “Marina Oswald has repeatedly lied to the [Secret] Service, the FBI, and this Commission on matters which are of vital concern to the people of this country and the world” (HSCA Report, appendix vol.11, p.126).

Offline Jerry Freeman

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Re: Can anybody provide proof of a successful reenactment of Oswald's feat?
« Reply #198 on: February 25, 2021, 09:08:25 PM »
The point is - did LHO ....
...Do all that stuff. But an even greater point of the thread...Could ANYBODY at all have done all that stuff? I guess they could have if they were a combination of the Amazing Kreskin ...Houdini...and Superman.

Online John Iacoletti

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Re: Can anybody provide proof of a successful reenactment of Oswald's feat?
« Reply #199 on: February 25, 2021, 10:02:25 PM »
The WC examining CE 543 and discussing his Marine Corp training believed he was dryfiring.

Begging the question.  Even if CE 543 showed signs of dryfiring, that doesn't mean that it had anything to do with Oswald.

In any case, Marina didn't see or hear anything that would indicate that Oswald ever "practiced" by pulling the trigger on this or any other rifle.

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Re: Can anybody provide proof of a successful reenactment of Oswald's feat?
« Reply #199 on: February 25, 2021, 10:02:25 PM »