The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?

[Robert Reeves]

If the WC believers are suggesting that the 1st shot was fired before Z186, then why are no SS agents looking back, even as late as Z207? Surely they should have reacted to noise coming from behind at Z 160, or Z 150.. But no... they remain looking forward all the way to Z207.. very strange.

Kellerman WC testimony, below.

Mr. KELLERMAN. As we turned off Houston onto Elm and made the short little dip to the left going down grade, as I said, we were away from buildings, and were there was a sign on the side of the road which I don't recall what it was or what it said, but we no more than passed that and you are out in the open, and there is a report like a firecracker, pop. And I turned my head to the right because whatever this noise was I was sure that it came from the right and perhaps into the rear, and as I turned my head to the right to view whatever it was or see whatever it was, I heard a voice from the back seat and I firmly believe it was the President's, "My God, I am hit," and I turned around and he has got his hands up here like this.

In the Gif above, you can see Connally turning his head to his right, reacting to something, he then quickly snaps back towards his left,  Kellerman, in front of Connally, also moves towards his right, the Zapruder film catches his head in profile view. Kellerman's head is fully in profile at z-151. Kellerman's testimony appears to be consistent, re z-film.

[Susan Wilde]

The current swallower's of the 'lone nut' shot sequence of 166 (into tree), 223 ('magic' bullet), 313 was destroyed by the swallower's very own Warren Commission.

The Warren Report admitted that of the shots sequence that its 3 shots  (or more)  witnesses the commission knew of,

"a substantial majority of the witnesses stated that the shots were not evenly spaced.
Most witnesses recalled that the second and third shots were bunched together"

(Warren Commission report, page 115)


One of the many key witnesses and/or key weapons experienced witnesses from a long list that can be solidly cited for anyone still in denial:

?I would say to me it seemed like 3 or 4 seconds between the first and the second, and between the second and third, well, I guess 2 seconds, they were very close together. It could have been more time between the first and second.?

(Military veteran, Pulitzer Prize winning  Dallas Times Herald  photographer, and Dealey Plaza close witness, Robert Jackson statements in his Warren Commission testimony, volume 2, page 160.

Jackson, as have also the  substantial majority  of his Dealey Plaza co-witnesses who heard at least three shots, has  always steadily maintained that of the shots he could hear,

"The second and third shots were closer together."

(Robert Jackson,  "Moment of Impact: Stories of the Pulitzer Prize Photographs" documentary https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctNVyf9jdCM )

[Joe Elliott]

Well, presuming Harold Norman was telling the truth, and did hear 3 shots in about 5 seconds,

 

That?s a big assumption. Skeptics don?t trust witnesses, at least witnesses unsupported by physical evidence. It is too easy for witnesses to be mistaken. Particularly on the question of the shots being spread over 5 seconds or 8.7 seconds.

. . . and combining that with CBS shooter experiment, NONE OF THEM were able to hit ANY targets on their 1st attempt,  even without boxes in the way, and foreknowledge of target track and red on black background target, ALL MISSED on their 1st attempt.. NOT A SINGLE HIT???

I never seen anything about the CBS 1967 shooters not being able to hit on their first attempt. Some got one out of three hits. Others two out of three. And one three out of three.

And it appears that Oswald got two out of three hits. And he was lucky with one, the neck shot, that missed the most likely target, the center of the head, by about 8 inches, which will probably cause a total miss, except he happened to miss downward. A miss by 8 inches to the left, or right, or high, would have been a total miss, at least of JFK.

Also, the shooters were trying to get the three shots off in under 6 seconds. Most likely, the three shots were from frames 153 to 312, which covers 8.7 seconds. Oswald had more time to aim then any of the 1967 CBS shooters.

Question:

Where is your source of this claim that the CBS shooters missed with all their shots on their first attempts?

Yet the WC wants us to believe Oswald without even  having the advantages the CBS shooters had, was able to hit 2 of 3 shots, even AS HE MOVED from sitting on the box, taking one shot standing up, and then somehow in about 3 more seconds got off 2 shots that BOTH hit, one of which was head shot.  ON HIS 1ST ATTEMPT!!!!

With 8.7 seconds, I don?t see why this is a problem.

The shots that 2 expert military snipers said were impossible  after seeing the 6th story SN, the boxes and the type rifle, the MC bolt action rifle.

Question:

What expert military sniper said this? Give us a link to this.

But maybe Betzner and Willis are simply wrong, and both of them are mistaking 2nd shot for the 1st shot they both heard, Betzner hearing it just after his photo at Z186, and Willis, right at when he snapped his photo at Z 205.

Don?t forget Mr. Altgens (CTers always do). All thought they took their picture at same time, or within a second, of the first shot. Either at z186, z205 or z255. Two of the three have to be wrong, at least.

Questions:

If at least two the three are wrong, why can?t all three have been wrong?

Does not Mr. Altgens show us that we cannot rely on witnesses claiming that their picture was taken just as the first shot was fired?

Don?t witnesses have a subconscious desire to believe that their photograph is extra special?

Even the JFK limo occupants, Jackie, Connally, Greer, Kellerman, seem oblivious until the head shot. They seem like people who have NOT actually heard 2 shots fired, but are only observing the EFFECT of those 2 shots, which is JFK slumping, and Gov Connally laying back.

Mr. And Mrs. Connally seem oblivious to any shots being fired before z312? Really? Really?

[Joe Elliott]

The current swallower's of the 'lone nut' shot sequence of 166 (into tree), 223 ('magic' bullet), 313 was destroyed by the swallower's very own Warren Commission.

The Warren Report admitted that of the shots sequence that its 3 shots  (or more)  witnesses the commission knew of,

"a substantial majority of the witnesses stated that the shots were not evenly spaced.
Most witnesses recalled that the second and third shots were bunched together"

(Warren Commission report, page 115)

Yes, and an equally strong majority of the witnesses said the limousine stopped or almost stopped. But we know from the Zapruder film that it only slowed form 13 mph to 8 mph.

A classic example as to why true skeptics don?t rely on an individual witness or even on the majority of opinions of many witnesses.



Naturally the witnesses could be wrong on this. A single rifle shot can make more than one noise. The ?Crack? of the supersonic bullet. The ?Thump? of the muzzle blast. The impact of a bullet on metal, glass or bone. And even echoes.

Several witnesses said all the shots occurred in pairs. A pair of shots almost on top of each other. Followed by another pair of shots almost on top of each other.

It is unlikely that two shots would occur at almost the same time, let alone two pairs of shots, even with multiple shooters.



Our best ?witness?, whose ?memory? never changes over the years, whose ?memory? is not influenced by what it hears from other people, shows:

** A probable shot at z153

**** strong camera jiggle at frames z158-z159
**** Kennedy, Connally and Rosemary Willis seemingly reacting to something by the z160?s

** Almost certainly a shot at z222

**** strong camera jiggle at frame 227
**** Connally?s coat movement at frame z224
**** Connally and Kennedy both jerking their right arm up at z226
**** The other reactions Connally and Kennedy make during the z220?s

** An absolutely certain shot at z312

**** strong camera jiggle at frame 318
**** Obvious explosive head wound that is first visible in frame z313

[Zeon Wasinsky]

I never seen anything about the CBS 1967 shooters not being able to hit on their first attempt. Some got one out of three hits. Others two out of three. And one three out of three.

And it appears that Oswald got two out of three hits. And he was lucky with one, the neck shot, that missed the most likely target, the center of the head, by about 8 inches, which will probably cause a total miss, except he happened to miss downward. A miss by 8 inches to the left, or right, or high, would have been a total miss, at least of JFK.

Also, the shooters were trying to get the three shots off in under 6 seconds. Most likely, the three shots were from frames 153 to 312, which covers 8.7 seconds. Oswald had more time to aim then any of the 1967 CBS shooters.

Question:

Where is your source of this claim that the CBS shooters missed with all their shots on their first attempts?

                                                                                                         
http://alt.assassination.jfk.narkive.com/bp1QdGQL/1967-cbs-special-a-cbs-news-inquiry-the-warren-report

                                                                                                       Zeon's conclusions:

1. Al Sherman, Maryland State Trooper                                                 = missed head shot
5.0 seconds - 2 hits in orange silouhette, 1 blue low
6.0 seconds - 2 hits, 1 blue high (1st 2 shots in 2.2 seconds)
NO TIME -- bolt jammed at third cartridge
5.2 seconds - 1 hit, two low
5.0 seconds - 1 hit, 2 upper left blue

2. Ron George, Maryland State Trooper                                                   = missed all 3
NO TIME -- bolt jammed after 2nd shot; 3rd fired very late
NO TIME -- 3rd bullet jammed
4.9 seconds - 2 hits, 1 blue upper right

3. John Concini, Maryland State Trooper                                                 = no comfirmed hits
6.3 seconds -- number of hits unreported
5.4 seconds -- 1 hit in silhouette, 2 blues "just low"

4. Howard Donahue, weapons engineer                                                   = missed all 3
NO TIME -- second bullet jammed
NO TIME -- jam after first shot
5.2 seconds - 3 hits in orange silhouette grouped in head area (best
target)

5. William Fitchett, sporting goods dealder                                              = missed all 3
6.5 seconds -- 3 borderline hits, low & left along silhouette border               
6.0 seconds -- 1 hit orange, 2 low blue
6.1 seconds -- number of hits unreported

6. Somerset Fitchett, sportsman                                                             = missed head shot
NO TIME -- jammed at 3rd bullet
5.9 seconds -- 2 hits, 1 wide left
5.5 seconds -- 2 hits, 1 low

7. John Bollendorf, ballistics technician                                                    = no hits in orange
6.8 seconds - 2 hits in silhouette, 1 blue low left
NO TIME -- jam after 2nd shot
NO TIME -- jam again
6.5 seconds -- 1 orange hit, 2 near misses blue upper left                     

8. Douglas Bazemore, ex-paratrooper (Viet vet)                                       = no hits
NO TIME -- stiff bolt action
NO TIME -- unable to work bolt fast enough
NO TIME -- just too stiff for him
NO TIME -- 2 shots in 5 seconds; 3 shots in 9 seconds; gives up

9. Carl Holden, H.P. White employee
NO TIME -- bolt jammed after 1st shot                                                        = no hits
NO TIME -- jammed again
5.4 seconds -- tight group of 3 hits in blue high right

10. Sid Price, H.P. White employee
5.9 seconds -- 1 hit orange, 1 blue, 1 nowhere (missed target completely)
4.3 seconds -- no hits reported
NO TIME -- jam after 2nd shot
4.1 seconds -- 1 hit orange, 2 complete misses (off blue)

11. Charles Hamby, H.P. White employee                                                       = no hits
NO TIME -- jammed
NO TIME -- jammed
6.5 seconds -- 2 blues close to silhouette, 1 completely missed target

[Zeon Wasinsky]

and the 2 military combat vet snipers:

Craig Roberts was a former Marine sniper who later wrote a book on the JFK assassination called ?Kill Zone.? Roberts visited the 6th floor window of the Texas School Book Depository and instantly realized that Oswald could not have performed the shooting feat because he knew that he himself could not. And he was a professional.

Roberts interviewed Sergeant Carlos Hathcock, the former senior instructor at the Marines Corps Sniper Instruction School at Quantico, Virginia. Roberts asked Hathcock if he thought Oswald could have done what the Warren Commission said he did. Hathcock said no.
Hathcock reconstructed the assassination at Quantico: the angle, moving target, time limit etc. he told Roberts, ?I don?t know how many times we tried it, but we couldn?t duplicate what the Warren Commission said Oswald did.

http://www.plaintruth.com/the_plain_truth/2013/11/jfk-how-good-of-a-shot-was-oswald.html

[John Anderson]

Oswald himself probably couldn't recreate it. On the day he wasn't trying to recreate anything though. He battered 3 rounds rapid down the street and got lucky. It happens. 9/11 is proof it happens.

[Joe Elliott]

Zeon?s original post, with my additions:


                                                                                                         
http://alt.assassination.jfk.narkive.com/bp1QdGQL/1967-cbs-special-a-cbs-news-inquiry-the-warren-report

Below I show Zeon and my conclusions. It is true that the rifle often jammed. It appears to jam about half the time, at least with shooters who are unfamiliar with the rifle. And half the time it does not jam.

For the ?first attempt?, I refer to the first attempt that the rifle did not jam and all three shots were made.


                                                                                                       Zeon's conclusions:

1. Al Sherman, Maryland State Trooper                                                 = missed head shot
5.0 seconds - 2 hits in orange silouhette, 1 blue low
6.0 seconds - 2 hits, 1 blue high (1st 2 shots in 2.2 seconds)
NO TIME -- bolt jammed at third cartridge
5.2 seconds - 1 hit, two low
5.0 seconds - 1 hit, 2 upper left blue
       ; Zeon?s conclusion:  missed head shot
       ; Joe?s conclusion:  first attempt ? 2 hits


2. Ron George, Maryland State Trooper                                                   = missed all 3
NO TIME -- bolt jammed after 2nd shot; 3rd fired very late
NO TIME -- 3rd bullet jammed
4.9 seconds - 2 hits, 1 blue upper right
      ; Zeon?s conclusion:  missed all three
     ; Joe?s conclusion: first attempt ? 2 hits


3. John Concini, Maryland State Trooper                                                 = no comfirmed hits
6.3 seconds -- number of hits unreported
5.4 seconds -- 1 hit in silhouette, 2 blues "just low"
     ; Zeon?s conclusion: no confirmed hits
     ; Joe?s conclusion: first attempt: unknown


4. Howard Donahue, weapons engineer                                                   = missed all 3
NO TIME -- second bullet jammed
NO TIME -- jam after first shot
5.2 seconds - 3 hits in orange silhouette grouped in head area (best
target)
     ; Zeon?s conclusion: missed all three
     ; Joe?s conclusion: first attempt ? 3 hits


5. William Fitchett, sporting goods dealer                                              = missed all 3
6.5 seconds -- 3 borderline hits, low & left along silhouette border               
6.0 seconds -- 1 hit orange, 2 low blue
6.1 seconds -- number of hits unreported
     ; Zeon?s conclusion: all three missed
     ; Joe?s conclusion:  first attempt: all three hit


6. Somerset Fitchett, sportsman                                                             = missed head shot
NO TIME -- jammed at 3rd bullet
5.9 seconds -- 2 hits, 1 wide left
5.5 seconds -- 2 hits, 1 low
     Zeon?s conclusion: missed head shot
     Joe?s conclusion: first attempt: 2 hits


7. John Bollendorf, ballistics technician                                                    = no hits in orange
6.8 seconds - 2 hits in silhouette, 1 blue low left
NO TIME -- jam after 2nd shot
NO TIME -- jam again
6.5 seconds -- 1 orange hit, 2 near misses blue upper left                     
     ; Zeon?s conclusion: no hits in orange
     ; Joe?s conclusion: first attempt: 1 hit


8. Douglas Bazemore, ex-paratrooper (Viet vet)                                       = no hits
NO TIME -- stiff bolt action
NO TIME -- unable to work bolt fast enough
NO TIME -- just too stiff for him
NO TIME -- 2 shots in 5 seconds; 3 shots in 9 seconds; gives up
     ; Zeon?s conclusion: no hits
     ; Joe?s conclusion: had problems with the bolt, unrecorded where the shots went


9. Carl Holden, H.P. White employee
NO TIME -- bolt jammed after 1st shot                                                        = no hits
NO TIME -- jammed again
5.4 seconds -- tight group of 3 hits in blue high right
     ; Zeon?s conclusion: no hits
     ; Joe?s conclusion on first attempt: no hits


10. Sid Price, H.P. White employee
5.9 seconds -- 1 hit orange, 1 blue, 1 nowhere (missed target completely)
4.3 seconds -- no hits reported
NO TIME -- jam after 2nd shot
4.1 seconds -- 1 hit orange, 2 complete misses (off blue)
       ; Zeon?s conclusion: not specified
       ; Joe conclusion on first attempt: 1 hit


11. Charles Hamby, H.P. White employee                                                       = no hits
NO TIME -- jammed
NO TIME -- jammed
6.5 seconds -- 2 blues close to silhouette, 1 completely missed target
     ; Zeon?s conclusion: no hits
     ; Joe?s conclusion on first attempt: no hits








I can see why you were reluctant to show the source of your claims, that all shooters missed all their shots on their first attempt.



There is one big problem with your scoring.

It is standard for shooters to receive instructions that any hit within the silhouette is a hit. Not that only a hit in the head area is a hit, but that any hit, anywhere in the silhouette is a hit. So, naturally, the shooters would aim at the ?fattest? part of the target, the chest area, to maximize their chances of getting a hit. Not at the head.

In contrast, someone trying to kill someone, and is shooting at short ranges, like under 100 yards, may chose to aim at the head, to maximize the odds of a fatal hit, even though they are shooting at a smaller target than the upper torso.


Questions:

Do you have any evidence that the CBS shooters were instructed to aim at the ?head? and not at the ?torso? part of the silhouette? And that any shot not on the ?head?, even one on the ?torso?, would be considered a miss?

Can you give any example, EVER, in any shooting test, that shooters where presented with a silhouette of a head and torso, but were instructed that any hit on the torso would be considered a ?Miss? and only a hit on the ?Head? would be considered a ?Hit?.



I anticipate that you will dodge this question.




Joe?s Points:

** The 11 CBS shooters were all volunteers. I do not know if there was a single expert in the group. I doubt it. Several were Maryland State troopers, who would have some experience with firearms. I don?t know about all the H. P. White employees.

** The shooters were rushed more than Oswald. It appears they were trying to get off their shots in under 6 seconds. The best evidence, unknown in 1967, is that the shots were probably spaced over 8.7 seconds, and possibly longer.

** We have testimony from his wife that Oswald did not go target practicing with his rifle at lot, but did do so on at least one occasion, that she knows of.

** We have testimony from his wife that Oswald did practice a lot working the bolt. He may have been better at avoiding jams than any of the 11 CBS shooters.



Of the 11 CBS shooters:

** Counting unreported results as:  0 hits

** Defining the ?First attempt? as the first time the rifle successfully fired 3 shots


I find that:

** 4 shooters missed all the shots

** 2 shooters got 1 hit, 2 misses

** 3 shooters got 2 hits, 1 miss

** 2 shooters got 3 hits, no misses

For an average of 1.64 hits per shooter, on a moving target.


Basically, these shooters had a 50/50 chance of getting off three shots and if they did get off three shots, they got an average of 1.64 hits.


Joe?s Conclusions:

** Even if Oswald, with all the practice he had with the rifle bolt, was no better at avoiding rifle jams than the 11 CBS shooters, he had a 50 / 50 chance of getting off three shots.

** The Shooting tests imply that Oswald should get 1.64 hits. This is close to the 2 hits he did get.


The rifle was not ideal. Its biggest problem was its tendency to jam. But there is a good chance it would not jam. Perhaps a very good change for a shooter with proficiency working the bolt. Oswald may have been such a shooter, with his opportunity to practice over the course of several months.