The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?

[Jack Nessan]

Kennedy turns his head forward between Z153 and the Z160s. Kennedy seems to be looking pass Woodward's group by then.



That isn't true and you know it. Actually this is just pathetic. Woodwards group was farther South and she explains what transpired when JFK looks at them.

http://www.blather.net/blather_img/dealey%20plaza%20witnesses%20at%20Z-150.jpg

Mary Woodward
"After acknowledging our cheers, he [JFK] faced forward again and suddenly there was a horrible, ear-splitting noise coming from behind us and a little to the right."
 At Z185 JFK is looking drectly at them and waving to them. The reason he turns to them is they were calling and making noise to get his attention. That is what "acknowledging our cheers " means. Later Woodward laments that maybe their faces is the last thing he seen.
A double shot at the end almost simaltaneous
" But one thing I am totally positive of in my own mind is how many shots there were. And there were three shots. The second two shots were immediate -- it was almost as if one were an echo of the other -- they came so quickly. The sound of one did not cease until the second shot. With the second and third shots, I did see the president being hit. I literally saw his head explode."

==============================

Peggy Burney who was standing farther South along Elm Street closer to the Stemons Freeway sign also states where the first shot occurred confirming what the other eyewitnesses stated about the lolcation of the first shot.

BY PEGGY BURNEY
  I saw the President die.I was standing at the curb on Elm about a third the way from Houston Street near the overpass.When the President's car made the curve around the corner, he was smiling and waving.He was not standing, as I heard some reports say later.  He was sitting, but he was happy and Jackie was happy and smiling as they passed. The car had passed about 15 feet beyond me when I heard the first shot.  I did not realize it was a shot; I thought it was a backfire.  The President ducked; instinctively I told myself "something is happening," but nobody knew what. Then I heard a second shot.  I noticed that Jackie didn't duck - I could no longer see the President.  The car momentarily stopped, then veered slightly to the right and speeded off. People around me were screaming; some were falling to the ground.  I could not tell whether they were hit, or not - or just dodging.  There was pandemonium.

[Jack Nessan]

Questions:

How does Altgen?s claim that the first shot occurred within a fraction of a second of his picture, at z255, which would mean a first shot after z234, support Willis?s claim of a shot just before he took his picture at z202?

Doesn?t there seem to be a pattern of photographers (Betzner, Willis and Altgens) convincing themselves that their picture was taken at a historically significant moment, just about when the first shot was fired?

That is not what they said. The only one who said he took the picture instantaneous with the shot was Willis. His claim was the shot made him squeeze the shutter. The statements of these three individuals support each other. Betzner said the shot was a little after his photo, Willis at the time of the photo, and Altgens was a little before the photo. Willis's photo coincides with Zapruder 210.

 Altgens said "just about the time" or "a fraction ahead of the photo" not a fraction of a second. That is your addition.

?I made one picture at the time I heard a noise that sounded like a
firecracker?I did not know it was a shot, but evidently my picture, as I
recall, and it was almost simultaneously with the shot?the shot was just
a fraction ahead of my picture, but that much

"The motorcade was moving along in routine fashion until there was a noise like fireworks popping, I snapped a picture of the motorcade at just about that time."


---------------------------------------------------------


 Betzner said he was winding his camera after taking a photo

?I started to wind my film again
and I heard a loud noise. I thought that this noise was either a firecracker
or a car had backfired.? [Sheriff?s Department affidavit: 24H200]


-------------------------------------------

Willis

Then my next shot was taken at the very--in fact, the shot caused me to squeeze the camera shutter, and I got a picture of the President as he was hit with the first shot. So instantaneous, in fact, that the crowd hadn't had time to react.

[Jerry Organ]

Kennedy turns his head forward between Z153 and the Z160s. Kennedy seems to be looking pass Woodward's group by then.



That isn't true and you know it. Actually this is just pathetic. Woodwards group was farther South and she explains what transpired when JFK looks at them.

http://www.blather.net/blather_img/dealey%20plaza%20witnesses%20at%20Z-150.jpg

Mary Woodward
"After acknowledging our cheers, he [JFK] faced forward again and suddenly there was a horrible, ear-splitting noise coming from behind us and a little to the right."
 At Z185 JFK is looking drectly at them and waving to them.

Kennedy's right hand is between his face and the Zapruder camera in Z185


But we can get a better sense of where his head is turned in Z180. He doesn't seem to be looking in Woodward's direction at all.

 The reason he turns to them is they were calling and making noise to get his attention. That is what "acknowledging our cheers " means.

The Woodward group are just gently applauding in the Z160s until they go out-of-frame in the Z180s. One hand (Thornton's?) raises and waves. They don't seem to be shouting or jumping up and down.

Later Woodward laments that maybe their faces is the last thing he seen.

Woodward claims the Kennedys looked around after the first shot. This could be when Jackie started her head turn in the Z170s. Kennedy turns his head to his right between Z153 and Z162, and in the Z170s, leans forward a little and turns further right. Don't see anywhere else in the pre-sign footage where the Kennedys turn their heads so much.

A double shot at the end almost simaltaneous
" But one thing I am totally positive of in my own mind is how many shots there were. And there were three shots. The second two shots were immediate -- it was almost as if one were an echo of the other -- they came so quickly. The sound of one did not cease until the second shot. With the second and third shots, I did see the president being hit. I literally saw his head explode."

This doesn't work too well for your Woodward claim that the first shot she heard must have been after Z204, since that gets close to her second shot where she saw Kennedy slump. It may not have been the slump she referred to, but the first slump supposedly caused by a hit to be seen in the film occurs at Z226-228. If one accepts that as the slump Woodward referred to, then the first two shots Woodward heard (ca. Z204 and Z226) would have been about one second apart followed by the head shot nearly five seconds later.

==============================

Peggy Burney who was standing farther South along Elm Street closer to the Stemons Freeway sign also states where the first shot occurred confirming what the other eyewitnesses stated about the lolcation of the first shot.

BY PEGGY BURNEY
  I saw the President die.I was standing at the curb on Elm about a third the way from Houston Street near the overpass.When the President's car made the curve around the corner, he was smiling and waving.He was not standing, as I heard some reports say later.  He was sitting, but he was happy and Jackie was happy and smiling as they passed. The car had passed about 15 feet beyond me when I heard the first shot.  I did not realize it was a shot; I thought it was a backfire.  The President ducked; instinctively I told myself "something is happening," but nobody knew what. Then I heard a second shot.  I noticed that Jackie didn't duck - I could no longer see the President.  The car momentarily stopped, then veered slightly to the right and speeded off. People around me were screaming; some were falling to the ground.  I could not tell whether they were hit, or not - or just dodging.  There was pandemonium.

Sounds like Burney's "first shot" is Woodward's "second shot".

I don't think we should be relying on these accounts too much; some witnesses either literally heard two shots or heard three (or more) and could only recall two. Others recall hearing more than two shots but felt comfortably with taking about two of them. Reasons for that might be that they associate a shot with something they were doing or saw something significant as they heard the shot. Still others, such as Woodward, heard three shots they were able to recall distinctively. A few heard more than three.

[Bob Prudhomme]

Since when does a rifle sound like a firecracker, especially when you are within 25 yards of the muzzle and the muzzle is pointing in your direction?

Ever stop and think about why James "Ike" Altgens didn't hear the first shot until he snapped the photo at z255?

[Joe Elliott]

That is not what they said. The only one who said he took the picture instantaneous with the shot was Willis. His claim was the shot made him squeeze the shutter. The statements of these three individuals support each other. Betzner said the shot was a little after his photo, Willis at the time of the photo, and Altgens was a little before the photo. Willis's photo coincides with Zapruder 210.

 Altgens said "just about the time" or "a fraction ahead of the photo" not a fraction of a second. That is your addition.

?I made one picture at the time I heard a noise that sounded like a
firecracker?I did not know it was a shot, but evidently my picture, as I
recall, and it was almost simultaneously with the shot?the shot was just
a fraction ahead of my picture, but that much

"The motorcade was moving along in routine fashion until there was a noise like fireworks popping, I snapped a picture of the motorcade at just about that time."


---------------------------------------------------------


 Betzner said he was winding his camera after taking a photo

?I started to wind my film again
and I heard a loud noise. I thought that this noise was either a firecracker
or a car had backfired.? [Sheriff?s Department affidavit: 24H200]


-------------------------------------------

Willis

Then my next shot was taken at the very--in fact, the shot caused me to squeeze the camera shutter, and I got a picture of the President as he was hit with the first shot. So instantaneous, in fact, that the crowd hadn't had time to react.

Altgens said:
I made one picture at the time I heard a noise that sounded like a firecracker--I did not know it was a shot, but evidently my picture, as I recall, and it was almost simultaneously with the shot? the shot was just a fraction ahead of my picture, but that much---of course at that time I figured it was nothing more than a firecracker, because from my position down here the sound was not of such volume that it would indicate to me it was a high-velocity rifle.


Altgens said his picture was taken almost simultaneously with the first shot. That alone make it sound like the two events were almost together, within a second of each other.

In addition, he clarifies this (with a mistake) by saying it was just a fraction ahead of his picture.

Question:

1.   What kind of units is Altgens talking about when he said ?fraction?. Units of weight? Units of Length? It?s units of time, correct?

2.   What unit of time would he be referring to? A fraction of a minute? A fraction of a fortnight? It has to be a fraction of a second, right?


People, particularly if they are a little nervous, making an official statement in front of others, often skip words. While Altgens didn?t say ?fraction of a second?, that has to be what he meant. The shot occurred with a fraction, almost simultaneously with his picture, just like the pictures taken by Betzner and Willis. But we know those pictures were all spread of several seconds, so one of them, perhaps all three, were wrong.

[Bob Prudhomme]

Altgens said:
I made one picture at the time I heard a noise that sounded like a firecracker--I did not know it was a shot, but evidently my picture, as I recall, and it was almost simultaneously with the shot? the shot was just a fraction ahead of my picture, but that much---of course at that time I figured it was nothing more than a firecracker, because from my position down here the sound was not of such volume that it would indicate to me it was a high-velocity rifle.


Altgens said his picture was taken almost simultaneously with the first shot. That alone make it sound like the two events were almost together, within a second of each other.

In addition, he clarifies this (with a mistake) by saying it was just a fraction ahead of his picture.

Question:

1.   What kind of units is Altgens talking about when he said ?fraction?. Units of weight? Units of Length? It?s units of time, correct?

2.   What unit of time would he be referring to? A fraction of a minute? A fraction of a fortnight? It has to be a fraction of a second, right?


People, particularly if they are a little nervous, making an official statement in front of others, often skip words. While Altgens didn?t say ?fraction of a second?, that has to be what he meant. The shot occurred with a fraction, almost simultaneously with his picture, just like the pictures taken by Betzner and Willis. But we know those pictures were all spread of several seconds, so one of them, perhaps all three, were wrong.

":Mr. LIEBELER - You testified previously, I believe, that the first shot that was fired had just been fired momentarily before you took the picture, is that right?
Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir; it was so close you could almost say it was simultaneous because it was coincidental but nevertheless that's just the way it happened."

[Bob Prudhomme]

From the Warren Commission testimony of James "Ike" Altgens:

"Mr. LIEBELER - Now, the thing that is troubling me, though, Mr. Altgens, is that you say the car was 30 feet away at the time you took Commission Exhibit No. 203 and that is the time at which the first shot was fired?
Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER - And that it was 15 feet away at the time the third shot was fired.
Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER - But during that period of time the car moved much more than 15 feet down Elm Street going down toward the triple underpass?
Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER - I don't know how many feet it moved, but it moved quite a ways from the time the first shot was fired until the time the third shot was fired. I'm having trouble on this Exhibit No. 203 understanding how you could have been within 30 feet of the President's car when you took Commission Exhibit No. 203 and within 15 feet of the car when he was hit with the last shot in the head without having moved yourself. Now, you have previously indicated that you were right beside the President's car when he was hit in the head.
Mr. ALTGENS - Well, I was about 15 feet from it.
Mr. LIEBELER - But it was almost directly in front of you as it went down the street; isn't that right?
Mr. ALTGENS - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Am I wrong, or isn't it correct that under that testimony the car couldn't have moved very far down Elm Street between the time you took Exhibit No. 203, which you took when the first shot was fired, and the time that you saw his head being hit, which was the time the last shot was fired?
Mr. ALTGENS - Well, I have to take into consideration the law governing photographic materials and the use of optics in cameras--lenses--and while my camera may have been set on a distance of 30 feet, there is a plus or minus, area in which the focus still is maintained. I figure that this is approximately 30 feet because that's what I have measured on my camera.
Mr. LIEBELER - And you say Exhibit No. 203 was taken about 30 feet away?
Mr. ALTGENS - But it might be 40 feet, but I couldn't say that that's exactly the distance because while it may be in focus at 40 feet, my camera has it in focus 30 feet. It's the same thing--if I focus at 15 feet, my focus might extend 20 feet and it might also be reduced to 10 feet, but my focusing was in that general area of 30 feet. I believe, if you will let me say something further here about this picture----
Mr. LIEBELER - Go ahead.
Mr. ALTGENS - Possibly I could step this off myself from this position, this approximate position where I was standing and step off the distance, using as a guidepost the marker on this post here or some marker that I can find in the area and I can probably step it off or measure it off and get the exact footage. I was just going by the markings on my camera."

[Joe Elliott]

Since when does a rifle sound like a firecracker, especially when you are within 25 yards of the muzzle and the muzzle is pointing in your direction?

Ever stop and think about why James "Ike" Altgens didn't hear the first shot until he snapped the photo at z255?

Altgens was 25 yards from the muzzle? Using Don Roberdeau?s map, I find Altgens was at z255, just beyond where the limousine would reach at z313, 90 yards away. Not 25 yards.



Decibel levels go down by 6 every time the distance from the sound source is doubled.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Acoustic/isprob2.html



The following list:

http://www.metrogun.com/db_list.html

shows:

firecracker:  150 db
rifle:  163 db


This list does not specify the distance from the rifle or the firecracker or what kind of firecracker or rifle they are talking about. But it does give us a rough measure.


This implies that a firecracker at 20 yards away would be as loud as a rifle at 90 yards away. It is quite possible that Altgens did not know whether he was hearing a rifle from 90 yards away or a firecracker that was closer.





As far as why didn?t Altgens hear a shot until z255, I would say that most witnesses did hear the first shot, at around z153. Did not recognize it as a shot. Dismissed it as a backfire or firecracker. And forgot about it. And continued to excitedly watch JFK and Jackie during the few seconds they would be close to them. They only remembered the shots that occurred after they realized something seems to be terribly wrong.