The shot sequence, bang......bang......bang?

[Jerry Organ]

Mr. NORMAN. I believe it was his right arm, and I can't remember what the exact time was but I know I heard a shot, and then after I heard the shot, well, it seems as though the President, you know, slumped or something, and then another shot and I believe Jarman or someone told me, he said, "I believe someone is shooting at the President," and I think I made a statement "It is someone shooting at the President, and I believe it came from up above us."
Well, I couldn't see at all during the time but I know I heard a third shot fired, and I could also hear something sounded like the shell hulls hitting the floor and the ejecting of the rifle, it sounded as though it was to me.
Mr. BALL. How many shots did you hear?
Mr. NORMAN. Three.

Heard 1st shot. Saw President "slump" Heard 2 more shots. Harold Norman, closest ear witness to the shooter.

demonstrates shot timing of 3 shots fired in less than 5 seconds. Harold Norman, closest ear witness to the shooter.

Guess Norman must be mistaken on BOTH his observation AND his  memory of the shot spacing, according to WC since if the 1st shot caused the "slumping" then the 1st shot was at Z223 and that would mean Normans other observation, of hearing 3 shots in less than 5 seconds is also correct, since Z223 to Z313 is 4.8 seconds. That would make it not probable that the MC rifle was used.

So the WC must reject most of Normans observation except for hearing 3 shots and hearing shells hit the floor.

There's a slump-like movement here:



From behind, as Norman was, one would not be aware of the President smiling, so it might appear to be something unusual.

Regarding the severe slumping at Z226-228 with the arms springing up, I think Norman would have said the President was hit. "Slumped or something" seems inadequate.

[Jack Nessan]

There's a slump-like movement here:



From behind, as Norman was, one would not be aware of the President smiling, so it might appear to be something unusual.

Regarding the severe slumping at Z226-228 with the arms springing up, I think Norman would have said the President was hit. "Slumped or something" seems inadequate.

This is just desperate. So the people alongside the car and in front of the car would not have thought there was a shot and they state where the first shot took place.

[Jerry Organ]

This is just desperate. So the people alongside the car and in front of the car would not have thought there was a shot and they state where the first shot took place.

Have you ever check out how many of those saying the "first shot" struck the President were also limiting their recollections to those shots they could connect something with?

Many "two shots" witnesses said they heard another shot but were reluctant or refused to place that extra shot.

Mary Woodward was standing on the sidewalk the car as it approached and was sure of three shots:

• 1) Did not hit the President; he looked around afterward
• 2) Struck the President
• 3) Head shot.

Phil Willis was standing near the curb on the opposite side of the street and he recalled three shots:

• 1) First shot caused Mrs. Kennedy to turn her head rightwards (she does this beginning in the Z170s); Willis thought Kennedy could have been reacting to a bullet strike in his 05 slide mainly because he (mistakenly) thought his slide (Z202) was synonymous with Z226.

Then we have the Connallys and John Ready begin their rightward head turns in the Z160s, and the Willis girl slowing and stopping.

Could mean something regarding the shots; could mean nothing.

[Andrew Mason]

Mr. NORMAN. I believe it was his right arm, and I can't remember what the exact time was but I know I heard a shot, and then after I heard the shot, well, it seems as though the President, you know, slumped or something, and then another shot and I believe Jarman or someone told me, he said, "I believe someone is shooting at the President," and I think I made a statement "It is someone shooting at the President, and I believe it came from up above us."
Well, I couldn't see at all during the time but I know I heard a third shot fired, and I could also hear something sounded like the shell hulls hitting the floor and the ejecting of the rifle, it sounded as though it was to me.
Mr. BALL. How many shots did you hear?
Mr. NORMAN. Three.

Heard 1st shot. Saw President "slump" Heard 2 more shots. Harold Norman, closest ear witness to the shooter.

demonstrates shot timing of 3 shots fired in less than 5 seconds. Harold Norman, closest ear witness to the shooter.

Guess Norman must be mistaken on BOTH his observation AND his  memory of the shot spacing, according to WC since if the 1st shot caused the "slumping" then the 1st shot was at Z223 and that would mean Normans other observation, of hearing 3 shots in less than 5 seconds is also correct, since Z223 to Z313 is 4.8 seconds. That would make it not probable that the MC rifle was used.

So the WC must reject most of Normans observation except for hearing 3 shots and hearing shells hit the floor.

That is only a problem if the first shot was at z223. There is a great deal of consistent evidence that it was before z200.  JFK became clear of any visual obstruction from the SN when JFK was halfway between the lamppost on Elm and the Thornton Freeway sign, which is about z195.  Phil Willis took his photo at z202 which he said was a very short time after the first shot.  Betzner said he took his z186 photo just before the first shot.  Jack Ready said he turned to the rear in immediately in response to the first shot. He begins to turn at z199.  Rosemary Willis turns her head sharply to the rear between z202-204.  She said she looked back at that TSBD and saw pigeons flying from the roof.   

If the first shot was around z195 and the second shot at z271-272 (there is evidence of this as well), then there is no problem with Oswald firing all shots i.e. z195 + 4.2 seconds -> z271 + 2.3 seconds -> z313. 

[Joe Elliott]

Looks like one more example of the witnesses being wrong.  In this case these are people specifically placed there to observe the sounds and note them. Under what circumstances are witnesses correct?

Obviously with your extensive knowledge of a carcano rifle and 1960 motorcycle sounds you know what the witnesses hear.

No. The HSCA 1970?s ?witnesses? didn?t compare the muzzle blast of a Carcano with the backfires commonly produced by early 1960?s motorcycles travelling at slow speeds. They didn?t compare the muzzle blast with the fireworks one could legally buy in 1963 set off from various distances from the observer.

They only tested the loudness of a Carcano rifle. And assumed a motorcycle backfire could not be as loud. And assumed a 1963 firecracker could not be loud enough to be as loud, even if it was set off much closer than the rifle was.

If the HSCA observers were wrong, this isn?t a case of mishearing rifles, backfires and firecrackers. This was a case of not testing backfires and firecrackers at all and making assumptions that backfires and firecrackers could not be loud enough. Not errors of observations, but much more fundamental errors of judgment. Making unwarranted assumptions that scientist should never do. If they want to argue that rifle fire cannot be mistaken for backfires or firecrackers, they need to first run an experiment involving rifles, backfires and firecrackers, not just rifles.

However, looking up charts on how loud rifles, backfires and firecrackers really are, and noting that the loudness of a sound is greatly effected by the distance from the sound source, it is possible to estimate that a rifle 90 yards away, pointed in the general direction of the observer, would sound about as loud as a firecracker from 20 yards away. Making it plausible that a distracted witness, hearing a rifle from 90 yards away, might mistake it for something much more commonplace, a firecracker that is 20 yards away. Or a nearby motorcycle. And continue enjoying their brief close up view of the President and First Lady.

[Jerry Organ]

"She said she looked back at that TSBD and saw pigeons flying from the roof."

If the shooter was on the 6th floor of the TSBD, he would be two storeys down from the roof. As well, there is a five foot high parapet around the perimeter of the TSBD roof.

If the pigeons were on the roof itself, there is a very good chance a shot from the 6th floor would be so well shielded, they might not even hear it.

OTOH, the roof of the Dal-Tex Building is directly across from the TSBD, and a shot from there would send a large sound wave right over top of the pigeons on the TSBD roof.

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the coverup.

Are YOU part of the coverup?

     If the pigeons were on the roof itself, there is a very good
     chance a shot from the 6th floor would be so well shielded,
     they might not even hear it.

Thanks, Bob. Keep them coming.

[Pat Speer]

FWIW, Mary Woodward's recollections do not remotely support a first shot miss circa 150-160, a second shot hit circa 224, and a third shot head shot at 313. 

(11-23-63 newspaper article Witness From the News Describes Assassination written by Woodward for the Dallas Morning News) : After acknowledging our cheers, he [JFK] faced forward again and suddenly there was a horrible, ear-splitting noise coming from behind us and a little to the right. My first reaction, and also my friends', was that as a joke someone had backfired their car. Apparently, the driver and occupants of the President's car had the same impression, because instead of speeding up, the car came almost to a halt. Things are a little hazy from this point, but I don't believe anyone was hit with the first bullet. The President and Mrs. Kennedy turned and looked around, as if they, too, didn't believe the noise was really coming from a gun...Then after a moment's pause, there was another shot and I saw the President start slumping in the car. This was followed rapidly by another shot.

(12-7-63 FBI report, 24H520) She stated she was watching President and Mrs. Kennedy closely, and all of her group cheered loudly as they went by. Just as President and Mrs. Kennedy went by, they turned and waved at them. Just a second or two later, she heard a loud noise. At this point, it appeared to her that President and Mrs. Kennedy probably were about one hundred feet from her. There seemed to be a pause of a few seconds, and then there were two more loud noises which she suddenly realized were shots, and she saw President Kennedy fall over and Mrs. Kennedy jumped up and started crawling over the back of the car.

(Interview in The Men Who Killed Kennedy, broadcast 1988) ?One thing I am totally positive about in my own mind is how many shots there were. And there were three shots. The second two shots were immediate. It was almost as if one were an echo of the other. They came so quickly the sound of one did not cease until the second shot. With the second and third shot I did see the president being hit.  I literally saw his head explode.


Woodward saw Kennedy react to a shot fired after he passed her, and then saw his head explode when two more closely bunched shots were fired. Although she later made it sound as if she saw him hit by the second shot, and then hit in the head with the third shot, her earliest statements do not support this, and her continued claim the last two shots were on top of each other undermines this claim.

[Walt Cakebread]

FWIW, Mary Woodward's recollections do not remotely support a first shot miss circa 150-160, a second shot hit circa 224, and a third shot head shot at 313. 

(11-23-63 newspaper article Witness From the News Describes Assassination written by Woodward for the Dallas Morning News) : After acknowledging our cheers, he [JFK] faced forward again and suddenly there was a horrible, ear-splitting noise coming from behind us and a little to the right. My first reaction, and also my friends', was that as a joke someone had backfired their car. Apparently, the driver and occupants of the President's car had the same impression, because instead of speeding up, the car came almost to a halt. Things are a little hazy from this point, but I don't believe anyone was hit with the first bullet. The President and Mrs. Kennedy turned and looked around, as if they, too, didn't believe the noise was really coming from a gun...Then after a moment's pause, there was another shot and I saw the President start slumping in the car. This was followed rapidly by another shot.

(12-7-63 FBI report, 24H520) She stated she was watching President and Mrs. Kennedy closely, and all of her group cheered loudly as they went by. Just as President and Mrs. Kennedy went by, they turned and waved at them. Just a second or two later, she heard a loud noise. At this point, it appeared to her that President and Mrs. Kennedy probably were about one hundred feet from her. There seemed to be a pause of a few seconds, and then there were two more loud noises which she suddenly realized were shots, and she saw President Kennedy fall over and Mrs. Kennedy jumped up and started crawling over the back of the car.

(Interview in The Men Who Killed Kennedy, broadcast 1988) ?One thing I am totally positive about in my own mind is how many shots there were. And there were three shots. The second two shots were immediate. It was almost as if one were an echo of the other. They came so quickly the sound of one did not cease until the second shot. With the second and third shot I did see the president being hit.  I literally saw his head explode.


Woodward saw Kennedy react to a shot fired after he passed her, and then saw his head explode when two more closely bunched shots were fired. Although she later made it sound as if she saw him hit by the second shot, and then hit in the head with the third shot, her earliest statements do not support this, and her continued claim the last two shots were on top of each other undermines this claim.

?One thing I am totally positive about in my own mind is how many shots there were. And there were three shots. The second two shots were immediate. It was almost as if one were an echo of the other. They came so quickly the sound of one did not cease until the second shot.

I'm offering $1000.00 to anybody who will come and take one of my standard carcanos to the range and fire it accurately twice in a manner that the two shots sound as described above.

Com'n LNer's what have ya got to lose?