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Author Topic: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer  (Read 435314 times)

Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2144 on: May 13, 2021, 01:51:17 AM »
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I already explained this; so did several other members.

I don't need an explanation. I need you to show me where (as you claimed in the interview) "McWatters testified that Oswald got on the bus".

Or you can just say you were wrong and McWatters never said that.... Your choice.

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2144 on: May 13, 2021, 01:51:17 AM »


Offline Bill Brown

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2145 on: May 13, 2021, 02:00:25 AM »
I don't need an explanation. I need you to show me where (as you claimed in the interview) "McWatters testified that Oswald got on the bus".

Or you can just say you were wrong and McWatters never said that.... Your choice.

I already explained this; so did several other members.  Scroll back about thirty pages for a look.

Online Dan O'meara

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2146 on: May 13, 2021, 02:06:52 AM »
It could be both, however (for what it's worth) Callaway does testify that an ambulance was arriving as he was making his report to the police dispatcher on the patrol car radio.

I believe the DPD tapes show 602 has arrived at the scene well before Callaway makes his call.
In between 602 giving the Code 6 for the murder scene and Callaway calling out "Hello, hello, hello" there are the following interactions:

102, Code 4.   
   
Was 519 E. Jefferson correct? (Siren)   
    
We have two locations; 501 East Jefferson and 501 East Tenth.   
   
19, are you en route?   

Is this an officer?       
This is northward on Tenth.   
   
10-4.       
10-4.       
10 . . .4.       
10-4.       
 . . . on Tenth.   
    
19 is en route.   
    
10-4, 19.       
    
605, Code 5.       
 
10-4, 605. 1:19.
       
85.       
 
602.       
 
85.       
 
85.       

Suspect running west on Jefferson from the location.   
    
10-4.   
   
Dispatcher   No physical description.


602 then tries to make a call but is interrupted by Callaway. The call could have been to tell the dispatcher they were Code 5 to the Methodist Hospital. I think the amount of interactions between 602 arriving at the scene and Callaway placing his call make it clear there was enough time for Callaway to help load Tippit into the ambulance before he made the call.
No other ambulance arrives during this time.

It is interesting to note that around 1:22 PM 602 makes the call "602 in service" which, I assume, means they have dropped Tippit off at the Methodist Hospital. This would indeed give an approximate time of 3 minutes for the journey to have been made between the murder scene and the Methodist Hospital. It would also indicate the DPD time calls were about two minutes off (if the 1:24 PM time is independent from the DPD time calls)

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2146 on: May 13, 2021, 02:06:52 AM »


Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2147 on: May 13, 2021, 02:07:09 AM »
This is clearly incorrect.
Ignore the time calls and you're left with a record of events, the order in which they happen and a good estimation of the time between each event. These things are not affected by ignoring the time calls.

Wrong. The time calls are all there is. Are you under the mistaken impression that the recordings were continuous?
The recording devices were sound activated and any recording of them out there only provides the actual recordings that were made. So all we have to go by are the dispatcher's time calls and the man in charge of them has explained in great detail to the HSCA why those time calls can not be relied upon.

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I've not really looked into this but if the DPD tapes are out by two minutes it's possible the ambulance left at 1:21 instead of 1:19

Now you are just looking for a way to explain the discrepancy. According to Bowles (the man in charge of the dispatchers) the time stamps could differ two minutes either way. So, it could just as easily be 1:17. It wasn't, but that's another discussion which requires at least a certain level of honesty.

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A 3 minute drive would have it at the Methodist Hospital at 1:24. Just a suggestion.

Sure, except for one little problem. Officer Croy was the first officer at the scene. He was in his car at Zang and Colorado when he heard Bowley's call, which according to the DPD radio logs took place at 1:17. He instantly drove to the scene, which took him less than two minutes and when he arrived he saw Tippit being loaded in the ambulance. So, even by the faulty DPD times that would be at 1:19, which would also make Callaway's call at 1:19 a bit strange.

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As for Davenport reporting Tippit was DOA at the same time Markham was supposed to be catching her bus...something seems off with that. Maybe Davenport got it wrong. Maybe.

Or maybe the official version is simply wrong. There is a lot of evidence that it is, but not everybody wants to hear or discuss it.

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I'm glad you agree.

605 has got nothing to do with it (that I can see).
Out of interest, why did you bring it up?

Because Bill Brown claimed that was the second ambulance that was dispatched to the Tippit scene and the one that he was talking about in his testimony when he said "By this time the ambulance was coming".

I'm glad you agree that 605 has nothing to do with it. You might get to the truth if you continue like this  Thumb1:

Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2148 on: May 13, 2021, 02:08:40 AM »

It could be both, however (for what it's worth) Callaway does testify that an ambulance was arriving as he was making his report to the police dispatcher on the patrol car radio.



Yes, but that wasn't 605 and the DPD transcripts show they did not call in code 6 (arrival) until 6 minutes later than Callaway's call.

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2148 on: May 13, 2021, 02:08:40 AM »


Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2149 on: May 13, 2021, 02:11:24 AM »
I already explained this; so did several other members.  Scroll back about thirty pages for a look.

Once again; I don't need your explanation. I need you to show me where in his testimony McWatters said it.

Stop playing games and admit you were wrong in saying that. Why is that such a problem for you?

And why are you still not addressing all the other valid points I have raised? 

Online Mitch Todd

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2150 on: May 13, 2021, 02:14:02 AM »
Dan: Not sure if this has been posted but James Bowles, the "Communications Superviser" for the DPD, has a long piece linked below that goes over in some details the time stamps.

See the section titled "Reference to the Times and Recordings". Some of it - more than some - is over my head but it might help.

Link: https://jfk-online.com/bowles1.html

If you read it, read carefully. It doesn't mean what Martin would like you to believe.

When you boil it down and winnow out the irrelevancies, the FUD, and the hypothetical worst-case scenarios, you have two statements by Bowles that sum up the situation:

1.)  "it was not uncommon for the time stamped on calls to be a minute to two ahead or behind the 'official' time shown on the master clock" [note defensive use of litotes here, by the way]
2.)  "When clocks were as much as a minute or so out of synchronization it was normal procedure to make the needed adjustments." 
   
So Bowles says the dispatcher clocks were kept within two minutes of City Hall time, and also within a minute of each other. The dispatcher clocks are consistent to within a minute, which is the important thing. I've already noted earlier in this thread that the timestamp data from the channel one and two demonstrate the dispatcher clocks were within a minute of each other that day. Frances Cason, a telephone operator in the DPD dispatch office, also said that the clocks were kept within a minute of each other. It's not perfect agreement between the different clocks, but they have don't have to be exactly in sync in order to be useful for our purpose here. And, yes, things would occasionally break down or otherwise get out of that within-a-minute sync, but those occasions were exceptions. You can claim Nov 22 was one of those exceptional days, but then you need to present evidence for it. Bowles himself was the supervisor of the dispatch center. Later, he spent a great deal of time pouring over the Dictabelt when he prepared the original channel one transcripts. And yet, he can't point to a single such exception. Imagine that.

As for the other timepieces involved in this desultory little play:

Bowley is quoted by "Into the Nightmare," saying his watch could have been five minutes off.

Markham's "time" is only an estimate offered well after the fact by a woman who didn't know what time her bus was supposed to have shown up. An estimate based on her observation of a laundromat clock at some point before she set off to catch a bus. She's just guessing.

Lottie Thompson was the Methodist Hospital ER nurse whom Martin brings into the conversation from time to time. In the 70's, she told Earl Golz that the clock in the Methodist ER was 15 minutes behind on November 22.

If you want to pin your hopes on any of these timepieces agreeing with "real time", good luck. You'll need it.

On a related note, it's worth noting that Callaway's attempt to use the Car 10 radio begins about two and a half minutes running time after the beginning of Bowley's transmission on the channel one recording. Callaway's transmission had to have occurred shortly before the ambulance's arrival but the Dudley Hughes ambulance logs showed that it arrived on scene at 1:18 their time, so the DH clock has to be behind DPD channel one time by a minute or two .

Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2151 on: May 13, 2021, 02:20:17 AM »
I believe the DPD tapes show 602 has arrived at the scene well before Callaway makes his call.
In between 602 giving the Code 6 for the murder scene and Callaway calling out "Hello, hello, hello" there are the following interactions:

102, Code 4.   
   
Was 519 E. Jefferson correct? (Siren)   
    
We have two locations; 501 East Jefferson and 501 East Tenth.   
   
19, are you en route?   

Is this an officer?       
This is northward on Tenth.   
   
10-4.       
10-4.       
10 . . .4.       
10-4.       
 . . . on Tenth.   
    
19 is en route.   
    
10-4, 19.       
    
605, Code 5.       
 
10-4, 605. 1:19.
       
85.       
 
602.       
 
85.       
 
85.       

Suspect running west on Jefferson from the location.   
    
10-4.   
   
Dispatcher   No physical description.


602 then tries to make a call but is interrupted by Callaway. The call could have been to tell the dispatcher they were Code 5 to the Methodist Hospital. I think the amount of interactions between 602 arriving at the scene and Callaway placing his call make it clear there was enough time for Callaway to help load Tippit into the ambulance before he made the call.
No other ambulance arrives during this time.

It is interesting to note that around 1:22 PM 602 makes the call "602 in service" which, I assume, means they have dropped Tippit off at the Methodist Hospital. This would indeed give an approximate time of 3 minutes for the journey to have been made between the murder scene and the Methodist Hospital. It would also indicate the DPD time calls were about two minutes off (if the 1:24 PM time is independent from the DPD time calls)

So much desperation to fit a square peg in a round hole.

It is interesting to note that around 1:22 PM 602 makes the call "602 in service" which, I assume, means they have dropped Tippit off at the Methodist Hospital. This would indeed give an approximate time of 3 minutes for the journey to have been made between the murder scene and the Methodist Hospital. It would also indicate the DPD time calls were about two minutes off (if the 1:24 PM time is independent from the DPD time calls)

How in the world is it possible to have an honest conversation with guys like you when you keep on changing your mind.

So, now the DPD time calls are off by about two minutes? How does that work out with the times for the calls by Bowley and Callaway. Did they also happen two minutes earlier?

And what about DPD officer Davenport who, in two separate day one documents states that Tippit was declared DOA at 1:15 at the hospital? He was actually there and witnessed it. Are you calling him "mistaken" or simply a liar?
« Last Edit: May 13, 2021, 02:22:34 AM by Martin Weidmann »

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2151 on: May 13, 2021, 02:20:17 AM »