Lee Oswald The Cop Killer

[Mitch Todd]

Mitch T. Reply #622 --- He radioed in , "The shells at the scene indicate that the suspect is armed with an Automatic 38 rather than a pistol ?? Sorry Mitch , I missed something . Can you explain the 38 Auto shells ?  Sorry man , I'll try to stay up .

Let me preface this with a confession: While I've been around and shot firearms off and on most of my life, I am not an NRA-paying firearms maven. However, I've known more than my share, and can talk comfortably and pretty fluently with them in their own chosen tongue.

When you refer to a particular cartridge, it's always "[bullet diameter] [disambiguator]." The bullet diameter part should be self-explanatory. "Disambiguator" is a neologism of my invention and needs some explanation. There are cases (no pun intended) where multiple cartridges are made for the same caliber. thing .22 shot rifle and .22 long rifle. Or 7.62 NATO vs 7.62x39 Soviet. .38 is kind of a sweet spot. There is .38 S&W, .38 Special, .38 ACP (aka, .38 auto), .380 ACP, .38 Super (aka, .38 Super Auto), and, to get confusing .357 magnum (which technically is a .38, and uses the same bullet as .38 special), 9mm Parabellum, and a few other lesser known cartridges. The thing to remember is that it's ".38 somethingsomething,"  There are some exceptions where a particular cartridge is common enough that it's referred to simply by it's diameter. For instance, if I say, ".357", you're already thinking ".357 magnum." If I say ".44," your inner Dirty Harry whispers "Magnum, punk!" in your ear. I don't have to put "parabellum" after 9mm, either. Gun guys, including cops, already know how to end it.

Which brings me to the ".38" After it was introduced in the 1920's, .38 special became so ubiquitous that, well before 1963, ".38" was synonymous with ".38 special." Cops, especially, used that nomenclature, since .38SPL was what they were universally armed with.

Given this, then what Hill means when he says "Automatic 38" is "automatic .38 special." If it was a .38 ACP, he would have said ".38ACP" or".38auto," not "automatic .38"
 

[Mitch Todd]

If a murder is known at an exact time and police claim they arrested the subject a minute earlier at another location they would have a problem Sorry but I have no idea what you are getting at

I'm not sure I know what you're getting at, either. For that matter, I'm not quite sure that you're sure you really understand what you're trying to get at here.  Benevides reports the shooting to police dispatch between 1:14 and 1:16. Even assuming for the sake of argument that Oswald was apprehended shortly before 1:40, that leaves about 20 minutes between shooting and apprehension. The idea that Oswald was arrested before the murder is beside the point, then.

In the interest of restoring context, remember that this particular thread branch started when you said, "the lack of any questions by the WC to establish what time they entered has significance. You tell me what the evidence is as to when they entered. " I asked you why you thought it would be significant, and also asked you in what case was the accused acquitted because the arrest time was not recorded to within some reasonably specific degree of accuracy. Maybe that will help you understand what I'm saying and why.

So, to get things back on track, what is the significance of the WC fixing the arrest time to some exact, specific time beyond what they and/or the DPD managed?

BTW, for reference, the WCR notes that  "at 1:45 p.m., the police radio stated, 'Have information a suspect just went in the Texas Theatre on West Jefferson.'" And then, at "at 1:51 p.m., police car 2 reported by radio that it was on the way to headquarters with tile suspect." Maybe the WC didn't ask questions about the time of arrest because they already had the answer, courtesy the DPD radio tapes?

 

[Mike Orr]

I knew about the 38 Automatic shells that were found and then of course those shells disappeared and were said to not be Auto 38 shells . I thought maybe we were being jerked around with not noticing the blowout of the back of JFK's head ( OOPS I'm sorry I forgot we were talking about those Auto 38 shells )that were found and marked and then were misidentified and lost or whatever happened to them !

[Matt Grantham]

It's Stringfellow, not Springfellow. And from the looks of his report, he wasn't present at the arrest.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/29/2928-001.gif

BTW, you are quoting Bill Kelly, who is quoting Douglas who is quoting....God knows what. That may not be the wisest thing to rely on.

The reports of the officers of the guys on scene are at the Dallas City archives:

02   07   001   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/02/63   E. R. Baggett   Original   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   1   00000632
02   07   002   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/02/63   E. R. Baggett   Carbon Copy   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   1   00000633
02   07   003   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/02/63   E. R. Baggett   Carbon Copy   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   1   00000635
02   07   004   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/03/63   P. L. Bentley   Original   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   2   00000636
02   07   005   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/03/63   P. L. Bentley   Carbon Copy   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   2   00000638
02   07   006   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/03/63   P. L. Bentley   Carbon Copy   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   2   00000641
02   07   007   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/03/63   P. L. Bentley   Carbon Copy   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   2   00000643
02   07   008   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/03/63   Marvin A. Buhk   Original   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   2   00000644
02   07   009   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/03/63   Marvin A. Buhk   Carbon Copy   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   2   00000646
02   07   010   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/03/63   Marvin A. Buhk   Carbon Copy   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   2   00000647
02   07   011   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/03/63   Marvin A. Buhk   Carbon Copy   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   2   00000648
02   07   012   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/04/63   Bob K. Carroll   Original   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   2   00000649
02   07   013   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/04/63   Bob K. Carroll   Carbon Copy   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   2   00000651
02   07   014   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/04/63   Bob K. Carroll   Carbon Copy   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   2   00000653
02   07   015   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/03/63   E. L. Cunningham   Original   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   2   00000654
02   07   016   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/03/63   E. L. Cunningham   Carbon Copy   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   2   00000655
02   07   017   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/03/63   E. L. Cunningham   Carbon Copy   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   2   00000657
02   07   018   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/02/63   Ray Hawkins   Original   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   2   00000659
02   07   019   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/02/63   Ray Hawkins   Carbon Copy   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   2   00000660
02   07   020   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/02/63   Ray Hawkins   Carbon Copy   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   2   00000661
02   07   021   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/02/63   Ray Hawkins   Carbon Copy   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   2   00000663
02   07   022   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/05/63   Gerald L. Hill   Original   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   2   00000665
02   07   023   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/05/63   Gerald L. Hill   Carbon Copy   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   2   00000666
02   07   024   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/05/63   Gerald L. Hill   Carbon Copy   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   2   00000668
02   07   025   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/03/63   T. A. Hutson   Original   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   2   00000669
02   07   026   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/03/63   T. A. Hutson   Carbon Copy   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   2   00000671
02   07   027   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/03/63   T. A. Hutson   Carbon Copy   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   2   00000673
02   07   028   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/04/63   K. E. Lyon   Original   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   1   00000675
02   07   029   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/04/63   K. E. Lyon   Carbon Copy   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   1   00000676
02   07   030   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/04/63   K. E. Lyon   Carbon Copy   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   1   00000678
02   07   031   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/04/63   K. E. Lyon   Carbon Copy   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   1   00000679
02   07   032   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/03/63   M. M. McDonald   Original   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   2   00000680
02   07   033   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/03/63   M. M. McDonald   Carbon Copy   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   2   00000681
02   07   034   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/03/63   M. M. McDonald   Carbon Copy Signed   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald (carbon copy, 2nd page only.  This carbon copy differs from other copies of this report.  It is single spaced, whereas previous copies are double spaced)   1   00000682
02   07   035   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/03/63   E. E. Taylor   Original   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   2   00000683
02   07   036   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/03/63   E. E. Taylor   Carbon Copy   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   2   00000684
02   07   037   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/03/63   E. E. Taylor   Carbon Copy   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   2   00000685
02   07   038   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/03/63   E. E. Taylor   Carbon Copy   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   2   00000686
02   07   039   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/03/63   H. H. Stringer   Original   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   2   00000687
02   07   040   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/03/63   H. H. Stringer   Carbon Copy   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   2   00000688
02   07   041   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/03/63   H. H. Stringer   Carbon Copy   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   2   00000690
02   07   042   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/03/63   H. H. Stringer   Carbon Copy   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   2   00000691
02   07   043   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/03/63   J. B. Toney   Original   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   2   00000693
02   07   044   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/03/63   J. B. Toney   Carbon Copy   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   2   00000694
02   07   045   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/03/63   J. B. Toney   Carbon Copy   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   2   00000697
02   07   046   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/03/63   J. B. Toney   Carbon Copy   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   2   00000699
02   07   047   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/02/63   Charles T. Walker   Original   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   2   00000700
02   07   048   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/02/63   Charles T. Walker   Carbon Copy   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   2   00000702
02   07   049   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/02/63   Charles T. Walker   Carbon Copy   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   2   00000704
02   07   050   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/03/63   W. R. Westbrook   Original   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   2   00000705
02   07   051   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/03/63   W. R. Westbrook   Carbon Copy   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   2   00000707
02   07   052   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/03/63   W. R. Westbrook   Carbon Copy   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   2   00000709
02   07   053   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/03/63   W. R. Westbrook   Carbon Copy   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   2   00000710
02   07   054   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/05/63   Gerald L. Hill   Carbon Copy Signed   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   2   00000727
02   07   055   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/03/63   E. E. Taylor   Carbon Copy Signed   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   1   00000729
02   07   056   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/03/63   Marvin A. Buhk   Carbon Copy Signed   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   1   00000730
02   07   057   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/02/63   Ray Hawkins   Carbon Copy Signed   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   1   00000732
02   07   058   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/03/63   W. R. Westbrook   Carbon Copy Signed and Annotated   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   1   00000734
02   07   059   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/04/63   Bob K. Carroll   Carbon Copy Signed   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   1   00000736
02   07   060   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/03/63   H. H. Stringer   Carbon Copy Signed   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   1   00000738
02   07   061   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/03/63   K. E. Lyon   Carbon Copy Signed   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   1   00000740
02   07   062   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/03/63   J. B. Toney   Carbon Copy Signed   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   1   00000743
02   07   063   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/03/63   M. M. McDonald   Carbon Copy   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald (Carbon copy,  first page only.  This report differs from previous reports.  It is single spaced whereas previous versions are double spaced)   1   00000746
02   07   064   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/02/63   E. R. Baggett   Carbon Copy Signed   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald   1   00000748
02   07   065   Report to Chief J. E. Curry   12/03/63   E. L. Cunningham   Carbon Copy Signed   Report concerning the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald 

Most of these are dupes, but that looks like the whole list.

 
and what do we make of it if he was not there. Assigned the report from someone else? An intentional fabrication? Delusional? Part of a conspiracy to create confusion of multiple conflicting reports to perhaps provide additional options? Was there and somehow removed by the official account.

 Sorry if I am not willing to dismiss it completely 

[Matt Grantham]

I'm not sure I know what you're getting at, either. For that matter, I'm not quite sure that you're sure you really understand what you're trying to get at here.  Benevides reports the shooting to police dispatch between 1:14 and 1:16. Even assuming for the sake of argument that Oswald was apprehended shortly before 1:40, that leaves about 20 minutes between shooting and apprehension. The idea that Oswald was arrested before the murder is beside the point, then.

In the interest of restoring context, remember that this particular thread branch started when you said, "the lack of any questions by the WC to establish what time they entered has significance. You tell me what the evidence is as to when they entered. " I asked you why you thought it would be significant, and also asked you in what case was the accused acquitted because the arrest time was not recorded to within some reasonably specific degree of accuracy. Maybe that will help you understand what I'm saying and why.

So, to get things back on track, what is the significance of the WC fixing the arrest time to some exact, specific time beyond what they and/or the DPD managed?

BTW, for reference, the WCR notes that  "at 1:45 p.m., the police radio stated, 'Have information a suspect just went in the Texas Theatre on West Jefferson.'" And then, at "at 1:51 p.m., police car 2 reported by radio that it was on the way to headquarters with tile suspect." Maybe the WC didn't ask questions about the time of arrest because they already had the answer, courtesy the DPD radio tapes?

 Mitch Are you saying recording the time of events such as these are not significant, or the difficulty in establishing them is unduly difficult?

[Mitch Todd]

Like if evidence shows the officers or suspect had not yet arrived to take part in the arrest.

Was that too difficult for you?

Maybe for you...

DEF ATTY: Your honor, I object! My client was arrested illegally!

JUDGE: On what grounds?

DEF ATTY: My client was not at the scene of arrest when the police arrested him! Also, the police officers who arrested my client were not at the place where they arrested him!

JUDGE (facepalming): OVERRULED! Also, you are hereby convicted of one count Public Imbecility and sentenced summary execution before you can reproduce.

[Mitch Todd]

and what do we make of it if [Stringfellow] was not there. Assigned the report from someone else? An intentional fabrication? Delusional? Part of a conspiracy to create confusion of multiple conflicting reports to perhaps provide additional options? Was there and somehow removed by the official account.

 Sorry if I am not willing to dismiss it completely

If he wasn't at the scene during the arrest, how accurate can you expect him to be? At best, all he can offer is a second-hand account.

More importantly, the reports I referenced in the Dallas city archives are from the officers who were involved in the arrest. How many of those say that the arrest went down in the balcony?