Lee Oswald The Cop Killer

[Mitch Todd]

What is foolish is to think anything that you posted supports your claim regarding the JDT murder. Show me which automatic pistols fired .38 Special revolver cartridges in 1963. Well? I am still waiting.

To commemorate your repeating yourself, I will also repeat myself, mostly just to rub it in:

I did. It was in reply #872:

"If you doubt me about a .38 special version of the Colt 1911, you can look here:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/06/13/38-special-colt-1911/

[For that matter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_%26_Wesson_Model_52]"

For instance, "in 1961 Smith & Wesson Model introduced the Model 52 as a match-grade target pistol derived from the Smith & Wesson Model 39. It was chambered in .38 Special Wadcutter for the sport of Bullseye shooting." Which part "1961" did you not understand?

[John Mytton]

This isn't evidence for your claim as no wadcutter was mentioned. Furthermore, in case you haven't figured it out your stance suggests that an automatic was used, but your beloved WC never said that LHO ever used an automatic pistol.

You put yourself in a no-win situation. Hurry up as lifeboats are filling up. 🚣

The shells that Oswald himself were seen discarding were exclusively matched to the same weapon that Oswald was arrested with.


The eyewitnesses who positively identified Oswald and confirmed he was carrying a gun

Mr. BALL. Which way?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Towards Jefferson, right across that way.
Mr. DULLES. Did he have the pistol in his hand at this time?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He had the gun when I saw him.


Mr. BELIN - All right. Now, you said you saw the man with the gun throw the shells?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Well, did you see the man empty his gun?
Mr. BENAVIDES - That is what he was doing. He took one out and threw it

Mr. BALL. And what did you see the man doing?
Mrs. DAVIS. Well, first off she went to screaming before I had paid too much attention to him, and pointing at him, and he was, what I thought, was emptying the gun.
Mr. BALL. He had a gun in his hand?
Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything else as you heard her screaming?
Mrs. DAVIS. Well, we saw Oswald. We didn't know it was Oswald at the time. We saw that boy cut across the lawn emptying the shells out of the gun.

Mr. BALL. And how was he holding the gun?
Mr. CALLAWAY. We used to say in the Marine Corps in a raised pistol position.


Mr. BALL. What did you see him doing?
Mr. GUINYARD. He came through there running and knocking empty shells out of his pistol and he had it up just like this with his hand.
Mr. BALL. With which hand?
Mr. GUINYARD. With his right hand; just kicking them out.
Mr. BALL. He had it up?


Mr. B.M. PATTERSON, 4635 Hartford Street, Dallas, Texas, currently employed by Wyatt's Cafeteria, 2647 South Lancaster, Dallas, Texas, advised he was present at the used car lot of JOHNNY REYNOLDS' on the afternoon of November 22, 1963.

PATTERSON advised that at approximately 1:30 PM, he was standing on JONNY REYNOLDS' used car lot together with L.J. LEWIS and HAROLD RUSSELL when they heard shots coming from the vicinity of 10th and Patton Avenue, Dallas, Texas. A minute or so later they observed a white male approximately 30 years of age, running south on Patton Avenue, carrying what appeared to be a revolver in his hand and was obviously trying to reload same while running.


Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see this man's face that had the gun in his hand?
Mr.REYNOLDS. Very good.

HAROLD RUSSELL, employee, Johnny Reynolds Used Car Lot, 500 Jefferson Street, Dallas, Texas, advised that on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, he was standing on the lot of Reynolds Used Cars together with L.J. LEWIS and PAT PATTERSON, at which time they heard shots come from the vicinity of Patton and Tenth Street, and a few seconds later they observed a young white man running south on Patton Avenue carrying a pistol or revolver which the individual was attempting to either reload or place in his belt line.


Mr. BELIN. Did he have anything in his hand?
Mr. SCOGGINS. He had a pistol in his left hand.

Jack Tatum
Next. this man with a gun in his hand ran toward the back of the squad car, but instead of running away he stepped into the street and shot the police officer who was lying in the street.

The Police Officers who were confronted with the murdering Oswald.

Mr. McDONALD - My left hand, at this point.
Mr. BALL - And had he withdrawn the pistol
Mr. McDONALD - He was drawing it as I put my hand.
Mr. BALL - From his waist?
Mr. McDONALD - Yes, sir.


Mr. BELIN. When you saw Oswald's hand by his belt, which hand did you see then?
Mr. WALKER. He had ahold of the handle of it.
Mr. BELIN. Handle of what?
Mr. WALKER. The revolver.
Mr. BELIN. Was there a revolver there?
Mr. WALKER. Yes; there was.

Mr. HUTSON. McDonald was at this time simultaneously trying to hold this person's right hand. Somehow this person moved his right hand to his waist, and I saw a revolver come out, and McDonald was holding on to it with his right hand, and this gun was waving up toward the back of the seat like this.

Oswald even admitted carrying his revolver.

Mr. STERN - Was he asked whether he was carrying a pistol at the time he was in the Texas Theatre?
Mr. BOOKHOUT - Yes; that was brought up. He admitted that he was carrying a pistol at the time he was arrested.


Mr. McCLOY. Was it a sharpshooter's or a marksman's? There are two different types, you know.
Mr. HOSTY. I believe it was a sharpshooter, sir. He then told Captain Fritz that he had been living at 1026 North Beckley, that is in Dallas, Tex., at 1026 North Beckley under the name O. H. Lee and not under his true name.
Oswald admitted that he was present in the Texas School Book Depository Building on the 22d of November 1963, where he had been employed since the 15th of October. Oswald told Captain Fritz that he was a laborer in this building and had access to the entire building. It had offices on the first and second floors with storage on third, fourth, fifth and sixth floors.
Oswald told Captain Fritz that he went to lunch at approximately noon on the 22d of November, ate his lunch in the lunchroom, and had gone and gotten a Coca Cola from the Coca Cola machine to have with his lunch. He claimed that he was in the lunchroom at the time President Kennedy passed the building.
He was asked why he left the School Book Depository that day, and he stated that in all the confusion he was certain that there would be no more work for the rest of the day, that everybody was too upset, there was too much confusion, so he just decided that there would be no work for the rest of the day and so he went home. He got on a bus and went home. He went to his residence on North Beckley, changed his clothes, and then went to a movie.
Captain Fritz asked him if he always carried a pistol when he went to the movie, and he said he carried it because he felt like it. He admitted that he did have a pistol on him at the time of his arrest, in this theatre, in the Oak Cliff area of Dallas. He further admitted that he had resisted arrest and had received a bump and a cut as a result of his resisting of arrest. He then denied that he had killed Officer Tippit or President Kennedy.


Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. He told me he went over and caught a bus and rode the bus to North Beckley near where he lived and went by home and changed clothes and got his pistol and went to the show. I asked him why he took his pistol and he said, "Well, you know about a pistol; I just carried it." Let's see if I asked him anything else right that minute. That is just about it.



JohnM

[Mitch Todd]

This isn't evidence for your claim as no wadcutter was mentioned. Furthermore, in case you haven't figured it out your stance suggests that an automatic was used, but your beloved WC never said that LHO ever used an automatic pistol.

You put yourself in a no-win situation. Hurry up as lifeboats are filling up. 🚣

A wadcutter is simply a kind of bullet. A .38 special wadcutter is still a .38 special, and is still fired from a .38 special cartridge case. Claiming that a .38 special wadcutter isn't really a .38 special is like saying a .38 special FMJ round isn't a .38 special, which is stupid where it's not ignorant.

Hill only had empty cases ("shells"); he wouldn't have known what kind of bullet had been fired from them. Wadcutter cases generally don't have any distinctive marks on them to easily differentiate them from other types of .38 special rounds. I wouldn't be surprised if some manufacturers had a particular code letter(s) to distinguish different bullets within a caliber, but I doubt Hill would know all (or maybe even any)  manufacturer's special codes. There might even be someone who actually puts something fairly easy to decipher, like "WAD," on the case, but it's definitely not common practice. I'll even throw in images of wadcutters, showing what's engraved on the base. Note that I've included examples from Remington, Winchester, and Federal, the big three among US ammunition manufacturers.

 

[Mitch Todd]

Sill waiting. Then show me with supporting evidence that LHO used one of these to murder JDT.

I never said that he did. I said that Hill's statement shows that he thought the gunman was armed with an automatic that fired .38 special.

You objected, claiming that no automatic fired .38 special. I showed you two particular examples that did.

Then you objected, trying to imply that they wouldn't have existed in 1963. I showed you that at least one did.

Then you objected, saying that that particular pistol only shoots .38 special wadcutter. I pointed out that wadcutter merely refers to the bullet, a .38 special wadcutter is a still a .38 special, and that Hill can't be expected to know the difference, since there are no differences in the wadcutter cases and other bullets' cases.

Having run out of modified limited hangouts (H/T to Tony Marsh for that phrase) you now demand that I prove something that I never claimed happen in the first place.

 

[Walt Cakebread]

The shells that Oswald himself were seen discarding were exclusively matched to the same weapon that Oswald was arrested with.


The eyewitnesses who positively identified Oswald and confirmed he was carrying a gun

Mr. BALL. Which way?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Towards Jefferson, right across that way.
Mr. DULLES. Did he have the pistol in his hand at this time?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He had the gun when I saw him.


Mr. BELIN - All right. Now, you said you saw the man with the gun throw the shells?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Well, did you see the man empty his gun?
Mr. BENAVIDES - That is what he was doing. He took one out and threw it

Mr. BALL. And what did you see the man doing?
Mrs. DAVIS. Well, first off she went to screaming before I had paid too much attention to him, and pointing at him, and he was, what I thought, was emptying the gun.
Mr. BALL. He had a gun in his hand?
Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything else as you heard her screaming?
Mrs. DAVIS. Well, we saw Oswald. We didn't know it was Oswald at the time. We saw that boy cut across the lawn emptying the shells out of the gun.

Mr. BALL. And how was he holding the gun?
Mr. CALLAWAY. We used to say in the Marine Corps in a raised pistol position.


Mr. BALL. What did you see him doing?
Mr. GUINYARD. He came through there running and knocking empty shells out of his pistol and he had it up just like this with his hand.
Mr. BALL. With which hand?
Mr. GUINYARD. With his right hand; just kicking them out.
Mr. BALL. He had it up?


Mr. B.M. PATTERSON, 4635 Hartford Street, Dallas, Texas, currently employed by Wyatt's Cafeteria, 2647 South Lancaster, Dallas, Texas, advised he was present at the used car lot of JOHNNY REYNOLDS' on the afternoon of November 22, 1963.

PATTERSON advised that at approximately 1:30 PM, he was standing on JONNY REYNOLDS' used car lot together with L.J. LEWIS and HAROLD RUSSELL when they heard shots coming from the vicinity of 10th and Patton Avenue, Dallas, Texas. A minute or so later they observed a white male approximately 30 years of age, running south on Patton Avenue, carrying what appeared to be a revolver in his hand and was obviously trying to reload same while running.


Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see this man's face that had the gun in his hand?
Mr.REYNOLDS. Very good.

HAROLD RUSSELL, employee, Johnny Reynolds Used Car Lot, 500 Jefferson Street, Dallas, Texas, advised that on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, he was standing on the lot of Reynolds Used Cars together with L.J. LEWIS and PAT PATTERSON, at which time they heard shots come from the vicinity of Patton and Tenth Street, and a few seconds later they observed a young white man running south on Patton Avenue carrying a pistol or revolver which the individual was attempting to either reload or place in his belt line.


Mr. BELIN. Did he have anything in his hand?
Mr. SCOGGINS. He had a pistol in his left hand.

Jack Tatum
Next. this man with a gun in his hand ran toward the back of the squad car, but instead of running away he stepped into the street and shot the police officer who was lying in the street.

The Police Officers who were confronted with the murdering Oswald.

Mr. McDONALD - My left hand, at this point.
Mr. BALL - And had he withdrawn the pistol
Mr. McDONALD - He was drawing it as I put my hand.
Mr. BALL - From his waist?
Mr. McDONALD - Yes, sir.


Mr. BELIN. When you saw Oswald's hand by his belt, which hand did you see then?
Mr. WALKER. He had ahold of the handle of it.
Mr. BELIN. Handle of what?
Mr. WALKER. The revolver.
Mr. BELIN. Was there a revolver there?
Mr. WALKER. Yes; there was.

Mr. HUTSON. McDonald was at this time simultaneously trying to hold this person's right hand. Somehow this person moved his right hand to his waist, and I saw a revolver come out, and McDonald was holding on to it with his right hand, and this gun was waving up toward the back of the seat like this.

Oswald even admitted carrying his revolver.

Mr. STERN - Was he asked whether he was carrying a pistol at the time he was in the Texas Theatre?
Mr. BOOKHOUT - Yes; that was brought up. He admitted that he was carrying a pistol at the time he was arrested.


Mr. McCLOY. Was it a sharpshooter's or a marksman's? There are two different types, you know.
Mr. HOSTY. I believe it was a sharpshooter, sir. He then told Captain Fritz that he had been living at 1026 North Beckley, that is in Dallas, Tex., at 1026 North Beckley under the name O. H. Lee and not under his true name.
Oswald admitted that he was present in the Texas School Book Depository Building on the 22d of November 1963, where he had been employed since the 15th of October. Oswald told Captain Fritz that he was a laborer in this building and had access to the entire building. It had offices on the first and second floors with storage on third, fourth, fifth and sixth floors.
Oswald told Captain Fritz that he went to lunch at approximately noon on the 22d of November, ate his lunch in the lunchroom, and had gone and gotten a Coca Cola from the Coca Cola machine to have with his lunch. He claimed that he was in the lunchroom at the time President Kennedy passed the building.
He was asked why he left the School Book Depository that day, and he stated that in all the confusion he was certain that there would be no more work for the rest of the day, that everybody was too upset, there was too much confusion, so he just decided that there would be no work for the rest of the day and so he went home. He got on a bus and went home. He went to his residence on North Beckley, changed his clothes, and then went to a movie.
Captain Fritz asked him if he always carried a pistol when he went to the movie, and he said he carried it because he felt like it. He admitted that he did have a pistol on him at the time of his arrest, in this theatre, in the Oak Cliff area of Dallas. He further admitted that he had resisted arrest and had received a bump and a cut as a result of his resisting of arrest. He then denied that he had killed Officer Tippit or President Kennedy.


Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. He told me he went over and caught a bus and rode the bus to North Beckley near where he lived and went by home and changed clothes and got his pistol and went to the show. I asked him why he took his pistol and he said, "Well, you know about a pistol; I just carried it." Let's see if I asked him anything else right that minute. That is just about it.



JohnM

The shells that Oswald himself were seen discarding were exclusively matched to the same weapon that Oswald was arrested with.

Wow!!...a whole pack of lies in a single sentence!...  incredible!!

First off...."The shells that Oswald himself were seen discarding" ....   The killer was not Lee Oswald....Domingo Benavides described the haircut of the killer as being cut in a manner that made the back of his head appear to be flat.  The mug shot of Lee Oswald shows that his hair cut was tapered and made the back of his head look cone shaped....

Secondly........Another gargantuan lie......The shells that were discarded over a wide area were exclusively matched to the same weapon that Oswald was arrested with.   

The killer extracted and discarded the spent shells ONE AT A TIME  over a wide area as he walked away from the scene.

FBI agent Cunningham demonstrated for the WC that "Oswald's" Smith & Wesson revolver  ejected all of the spent shells at once in one swell poop....thus the killer was NOT using a S&W revolver......

Thirdly...   Another gargantuan lie......The shells were exclusively matched to the same weapon that Oswald was arrested with.   

No need to expose the lie being told in this statement....because it it being exposed in a separate thread....

[Matt Grantham]

[Mitch Todd]

Explain why Hill would think that a shooter used an automatic to fire .38 Special REVOLVER cartridges. Why would this even cross his mind?

Already answered that question earlier in the thread. But I guess there's always that 3% that just don't get the word.

Decades later, Hill would claim that he thought the shells were from an automatic because of the way they were scattered about on the ground.

--However--

I personally think there was more to it than that. The transmission saying the suspect was armed with a ".32 dark finish automatic" occurred before Hill's broadcast, so someone was talking about seeing an automatic pistol before Hill called it in. By the time Hill grabs the mic, he has in his head:

 1.) Witness descriptions of a single gunman, but no more.
 2.) A description of the killer's gun as a .32 automatic.
 3.) .38 special (and only .38 special) casings.

I doubt that anyone can tell exactly the caliber of the pistol from 20+ feet, and I suspect that Hill would be prone to thinking the same way. So Hill has one gunman, an automatic, and .38 special cases. It doesn't take rocket science to mix that all together and get a gunman armed with an automatic that shoots .38 special.

Then explain why the WC didn't claim the same thing.

Did the WC even address that as an issue?

Finally, explain why the second dispatch said a .32 automatic was used.

The witness behind the .32 auto is generally held to be Ted Callaway, though I don't remember exactly what his rationale was. However, the gun was across the street from him, about 40' away, so I don't think I'd bet my life on the description being particularly accurate.

[Walt Cakebread]

Already answered that question earlier in the thread. But I guess there's always that 3% that just don't get the word.

Decades later, Hill would claim that he thought the shells were from an automatic because of the way they were scattered about on the ground.

--However--

I personally think there was more to it than that. The transmission saying the suspect was armed with a ".32 dark finish automatic" occurred before Hill's broadcast, so someone was talking about seeing an automatic pistol before Hill called it in. By the time Hill grabs the mic, he has in his head:

 1.) Witness descriptions of a single gunman, but no more.
 2.) A description of the killer's gun as a .32 automatic.
 3.) .38 special (and only .38 special) casings.

I doubt that anyone can tell exactly the caliber of the pistol from 20+ feet, and I suspect that Hill would be prone to thinking the same way. So Hill has one gunman, an automatic, and .38 special cases. It doesn't take rocket science to mix that all together and get a gunman armed with an automatic that shoots .38 special.


Did the WC even address that as an issue?


The witness behind the .32 auto is generally held to be Ted Callaway, though I don't remember exactly what his rationale was. However, the gun was across the street from him, about 40' away, so I don't think I'd bet my life on the description being particularly accurate.

Decades later, Hill would claim that he thought the shells were from an automatic because of the way they were scattered about on the ground.

Clearly you believe this obvious lie by Hill..... and the fact that you believe it, reveals how gullible and obtuse you are.

The spent shells were not merely "scattered about" as if they had been ejected from an automatic ....The shells were dispersed over a wide area... and no 38 automatic ejects and flings the spent shells 60 to 80 feet.

And since you clearly don't know much....It may be of interest to you to learn that Domingo Benevides watched the killer remove the spent shells from a REVOLVER ( that was NOT a S&W) ONE SHELL AT A TIME........