Lee Oswald The Cop Killer

[Martin Weidmann]

So, you weren't trying to spin anything at all when you tried to use Bowles' statements to claim that "[a]t best the time calls on the DPD recordings are the product of a very weak system" a few pages back?

Didn't miss it at all. However, I'm missing where you showed Bowles actually stating that the dispatcher clocks were out of spec that afternoon. Or any other evidence that the clocks were off spec.
As I said (and you deleted it without responding to it), "You can claim Nov 22 was one of those exceptional days, but then you need to present evidence for it. Bowles himself was the supervisor of the dispatch center. Later, he spent a great deal of time pouring over the Dictabelt when he prepared the original channel one transcripts. And yet, he can't point to a single such exception."

Like Davenport, Nurse Thompson was also in the Methodist ER that afternoon. Unlike Davenport, she was there every workday and had a much better perspective on the functioning of the Hospital's timekeeping machinery. Her bringing up the issue with Golz implies that she didn't believe that Tippt was wheeled in at 1:15 or just before.

BTW, who claimed Davenport lied? I never did. But if he's basing time of DOA on a clock that's way off, then his report will be way off because of it. Or, if Davenport (who was a traffic cop and not a murder investigator) is told that Ligouri was going to declare Tippit DOA and put the time of death at 1:15, and misunderstands the difference between time of death and time declared dead, he's still going to honestly wrong.

Didn't miss it at all. However, I'm missing where you showed Bowles actually stating that the dispatcher clocks were out of spec that afternoon. Or any other evidence that the clocks were off spec.

You clearly missed the preponderance of evidence that justifies the conclusion that the clocks were indeed off

And why should I show where Bowles said the dispatcher clocks were out of spec that afternoon, when the man has already told the HSCA that the Simplex clock used by the dispatchers indicated the incorrect time.? After such a blanket statement from the man in charge, it's upon you to show that they did work correctly and showed the correct time on November 22nd 1963.

"There is no way to connect "police time" with "real time." - J.C. Bowles

As I said (and you deleted it without responding to it), "You can claim Nov 22 was one of those exceptional days, but then you need to present evidence for it.

Not sure what you are rambling on about, but I never deleted anything you said nor did I ever claim that "Nov 22 was one of those exceptional days". In fact, it seems to have been a normal day with dispatcher's clocks showing the wrong time. If anything was different it probably was that the time stamps called out by the dispatchers were also off due to the heavy radio traffic.

Like Davenport, Nurse Thompson was also in the Methodist ER that afternoon. Unlike Davenport, she was there every workday and had a much better perspective on the functioning of the Hospital's timekeeping machinery. Her bringing up the issue with Golz implies that she didn't believe that Tippt was wheeled in at 1:15 or just before.

Nurse Thompson can believe what she wants. If you look hard enough you will likely always find somebody who says what you want to hear, but a belief by an idividual can hardly be enough to challenge first day documents. On the day it actually happened, Davenport and his partner Bardin wrote in their report that Tippit was declared dead at 1:15 and Davenport wrote in his own hand that Tippit was declared DOA at 1:15 on the form he used to submit a button from Tippit's jacket and a bullet removed from his body (at 1:30) to the DPD Identification Bureau.

BTW, who claimed Davenport lied? I never did. But if he's basing time of DOA on a clock that's way off, then his report will be way off because of it.

What makes you think that Davenport used a clock that's way off? Who said that?

Or, if Davenport (who was a traffic cop and not a murder investigator) is told that Ligouri was going to declare Tippit DOA and put the time of death at 1:15, and misunderstands the difference between time of death and time declared dead, he's still going to honestly wrong.

Are you trying to argue that a traffic cop is not as able as a murder investigator to read a clock? If you're not, then why did you bring it uo? You seem to be desperate for Davenport to be wrong. In their report Davenport and Bardin state that they were present in the emergency room where they watched the doctors and nurses trying to bring Tippit back to life and that Dr Liquori pronounced him dead at 1:15. Nobody told them nor was there a misunderstanding, Davenport and Bardin were there. They heard and saw it. And btw, there is not difference between death and time delared dead in this case. Declared DOA is exactly that. Dead on arrival. There isn't a ER doctor who declares somebody DOA by trying to figure out when exactly that person died. That's just plain silly.

One final comment. LNs constantly tells us non-believers that we should not examine each individual piece of evidence seperately, but instead should look at the bigger picture. This happens mainly when we are discussing the MC rifle etc. Yet here you are ignoring a complete interlocking time line based on solid corroboration by witness statements, documents and local knowledge and all you do is pick two items (dispatcher clock & Bowles and Davenport) to discuss. Why is that? Do you think you can score points that way?

Why not take on the entire time line and tell us all what is wrong with it (other of course that it does not match the DPD radio transcripts, because we already know that and have explained it)?

Here's the actual bottom line. When J.C. Bowles, the man in charge of the DPD dispatchers tells the HSCA that the dispatcher's clocks showed incorrect times, and when he clearly states that police time is not the same as real time, why would anybody still go out of his/her way to argue that the time stamp calls on the DPD recordings/transcripts are correct nevertheless?

[Mitch Todd]

You need to go back a few posts to see my examination of the DPD tapes and how they demonstrate the ambulance arriving at the murder scene before Callaway makes his call.

On McAdams DPD tapes pages, you can download a sections of the channel one recording, though it's in Real Audio format. One of those sections covers the period in question. If you listen, you'll notice that the transmission corresponding to the second (after 1:19) "602 code 6" in the transcript doesn't really sound like what is in the transcript. Specifically, the "6" in "code 6" doesn't sounds like someone saying "6". I'll let you decide for yourself, it to me it sounds like someone else tried to break onto the channel and rendered the end of whatever 602 was trying to say unintelligable.

[Martin Weidmann]

I posted this in another thread, but as we have been discussing the DPD radio transcripts and tapes here, it should really be placed her.

Another way to demonstrate that the DPD radio transcripts are unreliable is by demonstrating that they don't even match the actual recordings, as Bill Brown described hearing them at Dale Myers house.

The DPD transcripts have Bowley making his call at 1:17 and Callaway his call at 1:19. The WC puts the time of the shooting at around 1:16

According to Bill Brown, Dale Myers has the actual recording and has determined, by working backwards (from where exactly one can ask!) that the time of the shooting was likely 1:14:30 and that Bowley made his call at 1:17:40 (if I remember correctly!). Apparently, just after the shooting you can hear a sound on the tape that Bill believes is Benavides keying the mic of the patrol car. Bill has given three different durations (1 minute, 1,5 minute and 2 minutes) so for the purpose of this exercise let's go with 1,5 minute.

So now let's make a comparision. If the DPD transcripts are correct and the shooting indeed happened at 1:16 as the WC said, then where has Benavides keying the mic gone? He said he waited in his car until the killer was out of sight, which took about 45 seconds. Add to this 1,5 minutes of keying the mic (or even one minute) and you can never squeeze that between the WC shooting time of 1:16 and Bowley's call at 1:17 even if that call was made at 1:17:40.

Now, if the shooting happened at 1:14:30, as Myers claims, and Bowley indeed made his call at 1:17:40, there is three minutes and ten seconds to fit in the Benavides time of waiting 45 seconds and then keying the mic. However, even if you use Brown's longest estimate of 2 minutes for keying the mic, you still come up short by 25 seconds to fill the time gap between the shooting at 1:14:30 and Bowley's call at 1:17:40, which is strange because Bowley actually took the mic from Benavides, so there should not be a gap at all.

None of this makes any sense, because if the shooting happened at 1:14:30 and Callaway made his call at 1:19 (Brown sometimes speculates it could also have been 1:20) then you have Callaway making his call some 5 minutes after the shooting, when in fact he only needed (IMO) a little less than 3 minutes to get to scene after hearing the shots and those two extra minutes can not be accounted for, at least in a credible manner.

Also, according to Bill Brown three people phoned the police after the shooting, They are Mary Wright, Barbara Davis and L.J. Lewis. The dispatcher, Murray Jackson, would be notified about the calls by way of a time stamped call sheet that was passed on to him on a conveyor belt. Still according to Brown, the dispatcher did not know about Tippit's shooting until he received Bowley's radio call at 1:17:40. Are we really to believe that it took the telephone operator at 3 minutes to pass a call sheet to the radio dispatcher, who was sitting in the same room?

All this justifies the conclusion that the transcript and the actual radio tapes (as decribed by Brown) do not match reality nor do they match eachother.

[Martin Weidmann]

On McAdams DPD tapes pages, you can download a sections of the channel one recording, though it's in Real Audio format. One of those sections covers the period in question. If you listen, you'll notice that the transmission corresponding to the second (after 1:19) "602 code 6" in the transcript doesn't really sound like what is in the transcript. Specifically, the "6" in "code 6" doesn't sounds like someone saying "6". I'll let you decide for yourself, it to me it sounds like someone else tried to break onto the channel and rendered the end of whatever 602 was trying to say unintelligable.

I'm not sure what point you are actually trying to make but earlier in this thread we had the discussion about the ambulance (602) calls. Dan and I believe that the ambulance arrived just as Callaway was making his call. The 602 calls just prior and during Callaway's radio call were not the ambulance leaving but the ambulance driver trying to call in that it was a police officer who had been shot. It is all explained in reply #2220 at the top of this page.

[Mitch Todd]

I'm not sure what point you are actually trying to make but earlier in this thread we had the discussion about the ambulance (602) calls. Dan and I believe that the ambulance arrived just as Callaway was making his call. The 602 calls just prior and during Callaway's radio call were not the ambulance leaving but the ambulance driver trying to call in that it was a police officer who had been shot. It is all explained in reply #2220 at the top of this page.

I was replying to a comment made by Dan in response to what I originally wrote in reply #2183. That's where I explained to him how Callaway's testimony excludes the ambulance arriving before Callaway picked up the microphone. You're way behind me at #2220.

[Martin Weidmann]

I was replying to a comment made by Dan in response to what I originally wrote in reply #2183. That's where I explained to him how Callaway's testimony excludes the ambulance arriving before Callaway picked up the microphone. You're way behind me at #2220.

Sorry about that. My error.

The fact that you agree with the ambulance not arriving before Callaway picked up the mic is duly noted. I agree!

[Dan O'meara]

On McAdams DPD tapes pages, you can download a sections of the channel one recording, though it's in Real Audio format. One of those sections covers the period in question. If you listen, you'll notice that the transmission corresponding to the second (after 1:19) "602 code 6" in the transcript doesn't really sound like what is in the transcript. Specifically, the "6" in "code 6" doesn't sounds like someone saying "6". I'll let you decide for yourself, it to me it sounds like someone else tried to break onto the channel and rendered the end of whatever 602 was trying to say unintelligable.

This was the relevant part of the post in question:

Shortly after Bowley's call on Tippit's radio the Dispatcher puts out this call:

"Attention. Signal 19 [shooting], police officer, 510 E. Jefferson." (Even though Bowley gives 404 Tenth Street as the address of the shooting)

Ambulance 602 responds - "Code 5" [En Route]

Maybe one minute later 602 states - "Code 6" [Arrived] - Meaning the ambulance has reached the East Jefferson address.

Shortly after this 602 asks - "What was that address on Jefferson?" - presumably because there is no sign of anything wrong.
To which the Dispatcher responds - "501 East Tenth."

Shortly after this 602 states - "Code 6" [Arrived] - Meaning they have arrived at the scene of the Tippit shooting at 501 East Tenth Street

Shortly after this 602 tries to get the attention of the Dispatcher but the call is interrupted by Callaway's call.

On the tapes 602 responds to the address 510 E. Jefferson, state when they get there, ask what the address was (as, presumably, there's nothing going on), they are given the correct address (only a few seconds drive from where they are) and they announce they have arrived "Code 6" (whether you can make it out or not it is part of a sequence).
Butler reports that when he gets to the scene Tippit is lying in the street, covered by a blanket (or a coat). They pull it back to discover the victim is a policeman and Butler gets straight back on the radio to call this in. On the tapes, 602 is trying to call at the time of Callaway's call and don't seem to get through. Butler describes this precise sequence of events - arriving at the scene (calling in their arrival), finding the victim is a police officer, getting back on the radio to call "Mayday" but he can't get through and gives up (because Callaway is making his call). It is after this they load Tippit into the ambulance.

It is clear from the transcripts that, although 602 calls "Code 3" before the Callaway call there is not enough time for the ambulance to pull up, for Butler to check on Tippit and then make his aborted call and, then, for Tippit's body to be loaded into the ambulance before Callaway makes his call.

I believe this confirms the timeline Martin puts forward but I don't know what the big deal is as it has zero bearing on Oswald's guilt as far as the Tippit murder is concerned.

[Bill Brown]

If it were an automatic, you'd expect the empty cases to be flung to the right of the shooter. That is, to the east of Tippit's car. The cases that were recovered were well to the west.

Absolutely. The shells were not from an automatic weapon. Thankfully, I haven't seen anyone recently argue in favor of that, however. They're learning, slowly.