Lee Oswald The Cop Killer

[Martin Weidmann]

Helen Markham, Barbara Davis, Virginia Davis, William Scoggins, Sam Guinyard and Ted Callaway all attended a police lineup and positively identified Lee Oswald as the man they saw either shoot J.D. Tippit or run from the immediate scene with a gun in his hands. Not one witness who attended a lineup identified someone other than Oswald as the man they saw.

Four men located at the Johnny Reynolds Motor Company located one block south of the Tippit shooting scene heard the shots and looked up the street. Warren Reynolds, Pat Patterson and Harold Russell positively identified Lee Oswald as the man they saw running south on Patton to Jefferson with a gun in his hands. One man, L.J. Lewis, failed to identify Oswald as the man he saw but Lewis also did NOT say that the man was not Oswald; only that he couldn't be sure either way.

Jimmy Burt and Bill Smith were out in the front yard of the house on the corner of Tenth and Denver (one block east of Tenth and Patton). They heard the shots, looked west along Tenth and saw the killer run from the scene. These two men were interviewed by the FBI and neither could positively identify Lee Oswald as the killer. However, neither man stated that Oswald was NOT the man they saw.

Domingo Benavides was the closest witness to the shooting. He heard the shots and ducked down in his pickup truck. He saw the killer but told the Dallas Police that he felt he didn't get a good enough look at the killer to make an identification. Benavides could not state that the killer was Oswald and he could not state that the killer was NOT Oswald.

Add up these above witnesses. Thirteen witnesses to the shooting and/or the killer fleeing. Nine of the witnesses positively identified Lee Oswald. Four of the witnesses could not make a determination one way or the other. But ZERO of the thirteen witnesses told the authorities that the man was NOT Oswald.

Argumentum ad populum. It is a logical fallacy to claim that just because a majority of the witnesses say the same thing, it must be true. In fact, under normal circumstances, it is a mathematical impossibility that in such a small group all witnesses say the same thing.

Witness testimony is regarded as highly unreliable. When ten people watch the same car accident, you normally expect to get ten different stories about what actually happened. With this in mind, it is totally beyond belief that so many witnesses, some of whom only saw the killer for no more than a couple of seconds at best, identified Oswald as the man they had seen, unless of course it was somehow obvious who the man was they were supposed to identify. You simply can not argue that witnesses are getting things wrong all the time (like the color of the jacket) and then turn around and claim that all the witnesses who identified Oswald in the line up could not possibly have been wrong.

But ZERO of the thirteen witnesses told the authorities that the man was NOT Oswald.

Which is just about the weakest argument anybody can make. They didn't say it was not him, so it must be him? Is that what you are saying? Really?

[Dan O'meara]

I don't think Richard composed those quips.... He must have plagiarized somebody more witty and also more insulting than he. When it suits their purpose...the Oswald did it people will state that eye witnesses can be in error. I place myself in the micro-minority of skeptics who still fail to understand how someone can appear within a 10-15 minute time frame from a rooming house approx one mile away to an unexplained location and for no further explained reason gun down a policeman. That's all.

"...how someone can appear within a 10-15 minute time frame from a rooming house approx one mile away..."

The distance was actually 0.8 miles and at a brisk walk of 4mph this distance can be covered in 12 minutes.

"...to an unexplained location..."

The clue to why Oswald was on East 10th Street is the bus transfer ticket.
In the memo below it is explained that the only place Oswald could use the transfer was at Marsalis and Jefferson (3 blocks away from the Tippit shooting). It also explains why Oswald appeared to be in a hurry - there was a limited time in which he could use the transfer ticket.

https://www.fordlibrarymuseum.gov/library/document/0393/23811297.pdf

"...for no further explained reason gun down a policeman..."

It seems that Oswald was on the run (from the police).

[Martin Weidmann]

"...how someone can appear within a 10-15 minute time frame from a rooming house approx one mile away..."

The distance was actually 0.8 miles and at a brisk walk of 4mph this distance can be covered in 12 minutes.

That lines up with my own timing, when I did the walk. So, if you agree that Tippit was shot at around 1.09 PM how do you propose he got there by (roughly) 1:08, when Markham saw him walking?

"...to an unexplained location..."

The clue to why Oswald was on East 10th Street is the bus transfer ticket.
In the memo below it is explained that the only place Oswald could use the transfer was at Marsalis and Jefferson (3 blocks away from the Tippit shooting). It also explains why Oswald appeared to be in a hurry - there was a limited time in which he could use the transfer ticket.

https://www.fordlibrarymuseum.gov/library/document/0393/23811297.pdf

Still it makes no sense for him to be walking east on 10th street (if he did as some witnesses have him walking west first). He could have walked down Patton and turned left when he got to Jefferson.

"...for no further explained reason gun down a policeman..."

It seems that Oswald was on the run (from the police).

Hindsight based on bias. Assumes Oswald was the man and that he was on the run.

[Anthony Frank]

"...for no further explained reason gun down a policeman..."

It seems that Oswald was on the run (from the police).

Oswald was a totally-controlled CIA asset who feigned defection to the Soviet Union on behalf of the CIA (see link).

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2958.0.html

If Oswald killed Tippit, it was on orders from his CIA handlers. If Oswald did not kill Tippit, the CIA killed Tippit and then gave the gun to Oswald and said, “Meet us at the theater.”

[Martin Weidmann]

Oswald was a totally-controlled CIA asset who feigned defection to the Soviet Union on behalf of the CIA (see link).

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2958.0.html

If Oswald killed Tippit, it was on orders from his CIA handlers. If Oswald did not kill Tippit, the CIA killed Tippit and then gave the gun to Oswald and said, “Meet us at the theater.”

If you say so, it must be true. Right?

[Dan O'meara]

That lines up with my own timing, when I did the walk. So, if you agree that Tippit was shot at around 1.09 PM how do you propose he got there by (roughly) 1:08, when Markham saw him walking?

Still it makes no sense for him to be walking east on 10th street (if he did as some witnesses have him walking west first). He could have walked down Patton and turned left when he got to Jefferson.

Hindsight based on bias. Assumes Oswald was the man and that he was on the run.

If you had the decency to read the post I was responding to you would see there is no need for your unwarranted accusations of 'bias' (you, of all people on this forum, accusing anyone of 'bias' is beyond a joke).
Jerry expressed his failure to understand how someone, namely Oswald, could get from his rooming house to the Tippit shooting in 10-15 minutes. Why Oswald was at this specific location. And why Oswald shot Tippit for no apparent reason.
The assumption of Oswald being 'the man' was put forward by Jerry and I was putting forward some opinions regarding the points Jerry raised.
Not facts or the "truth". Just some opinions.

Here's some more assumptions based on the following assumption - Oswald was involved in the assassination of JFK.

#1 He's on the run.
This is supported by Whaley's testimony that Oswald was supposed to get out of the cab a lot further down Beckley. Oswald gets Whaley to drive by the house so he can check it out. He sees it's all clear and jumps out of the cab before his designated stop. If it wouldn't have been all clear he would've got Whaley to drop him off further down Beckley where he'd originally agreed to be dropped off.

#2 He's in a hurry.
This is supported by Roberts' testimony. She is certain about two things in her testimony - that Oswald is in a hurry and that he is zipping up a jacket when he leaves the house.
It's also supported by the bus transfer ticket - Oswald can only use it at Marsalis and Jefferson and he has to get there before 1:15PM.
He has a small window of opportunity to get to the transfer point. Oswald jogging at 6mph would get him to Patton in 8 minutes.

#3 He uses the back streets.
It makes sense that he would avoid main streets like Beckley or Jefferson if he was on the run. With this in mind Oswald got off Beckley and onto North Crawford street, crossed the 8th and Davis triangle and carried on down North Crawford. He turned left onto 10th Street. This is supported by Markham's testimony that she first saw the shooter crossing Patton and moving east.
Oswald may have intended to go further down North Crawford but may have seen Tippit's squad car coming up from Jefferson so decided to duck down East 10th Street.
When Markham saw him walking he was already being followed by Tippit. If he was aware of that he would hardly be running.

Oswald had to get to Marsalis and Jefferson by 1:15 PM
He was in a big hurry and used the back streets.

[Martin Weidmann]

If you had the decency to read the post I was responding to you would see there is no need for your unwarranted accusations of 'bias' (you, of all people on this forum, accusing anyone of 'bias' is beyond a joke).

Why are you so aggressive and paranoid at the same time?

Jerry expressed his failure to understand how someone, namely Oswald, could get from his rooming house to the Tippit shooting in 10-15 minutes. Why Oswald was at this specific location. And why Oswald shot Tippit for no apparent reason.
The assumption of Oswald being 'the man' was put forward by Jerry and I was putting forward some opinions regarding the points Jerry raised. Not facts or the "truth". Just some opinions.

I agree that Oswald, walking, could get from the rooming house to the Tippit scene in 12 minutes but not in 10.

But you haven't answered my question. You have agreed that my timeline shows that Tippit was most probably shot around 1:09, which means that his killer must have been there at 1:08. So, if the killer was Oswald, how do you get him from the rooming house to 10th street in 8 minutes max.?

Here's some more assumptions based on the following assumption - Oswald was involved in the assassination of JFK.

That's one hell of an assumption, but it happens to be one I agree with to the extent that Oswald must have been involved, because you can't frame a complete outsider. What Oswald exactly was involved in is another matter.

#1 He's on the run.
This is supported by Whaley's testimony that Oswald was supposed to get out of the cab a lot further down Beckley. Oswald gets Whaley to drive by the house so he can check it out. He sees it's all clear and jumps out of the cab before his designated stop. If it wouldn't have been all clear he would've got Whaley to drop him off further down Beckley where he'd originally agreed to be dropped off.

Hindsight and speculation! Whaley's testimony does not support that Oswald was "on the run".

#2 He's in a hurry.
This is supported by Roberts' testimony. She is certain about two things in her testimony - that Oswald is in a hurry and that he is zipping up a jacket when he leaves the house.
It's also supported by the bus transfer ticket - Oswald can only use it at Marsalis and Jefferson and he has to get there before 1:15PM.
He has a small window of opportunity to get to the transfer point. Oswald jogging at 6mph would get him to Patton in 8 minutes.

No. It might have been Roberts' impression that Oswald was in a hurry, but that doesn't mean he actually was. And the bus transfer ticket doesn't prove anything of the kind. Even if the transfer did in fact belong to Oswald, that still doesn't mean that he was on his way to a bus stop at Marsalis and Jefferson

#3 He uses the back streets.
It makes sense that he would avoid main streets like Beckley or Jefferson if he was on the run. With this in mind Oswald got off Beckley and onto North Crawford street, crossed the 8th and Davis triangle and carried on down North Crawford. He turned left onto 10th Street. This is supported by Markham's testimony that she first saw the shooter crossing Patton and moving east.
Oswald may have intended to go further down North Crawford but may have seen Tippit's squad car coming up from Jefferson so decided to duck down East 10th Street.
When Markham saw him walking he was already being followed by Tippit. If he was aware of that he would hardly be running.

Now, you are only making things up and claiming it makes sense. In reality you have no idea whatsoever what route Oswald took, if he was indeed Tippit's killler. Markham may have seen him when he was walking east, but other witnesses saw him walking west first. The whole thing is pure 100% speculation.

Oswald had to get to Marsalis and Jefferson by 1:15 PM
He was in a big hurry and used the back streets.

Who said that Oswald had to get to Marsalis and Jefferson by 1:15 PM?

With enough speculation you can get anybody to do anything, but I can just as easily speculate that Oswald left the rooming house and went straight to the Texas Theater, where Burrows saw him at 1:07 PM.

You can't build a house on quicksand (i.e. speculations) and expect it will survive the first storm.

[Dan O'meara]

Why are you so aggressive and paranoid at the same time?

Because I'm sick and tired of your accusations of hypocrisy, dishonesty and bias.
And if I was paranoid about it then it wouldn't be in the written record of this forum, would it?
The really grating aspect of it is that you are clearly an unreasonably aggressive tinfoil tiara-wearing CT zealot pretending to be a open, reasonable person.

I agree that Oswald, walking, could get from the rooming house to the Tippit scene in 12 minutes but not in 10.

Where in my post does it mention Oswald walking the distance in 10 minutes?
What are you talking about?
What's wrong with you?

But you haven't answered my question. You have agreed that my timeline shows that Tippit was most probably shot around 1:09, which means that his killer must have been there at 1:08. So, if the killer was Oswald, how do you get him from the rooming house to 10th street in 8 minutes max.?

But I have answered this question.
It's in the post you're supposed to be replying to.
You've not even read the post you're criticising.
Really, what is wrong with you? It's written there for all to see (except you)

That's one hell of an assumption, but it happens to be one I agree with to the extent that Oswald must have been involved, because you can't frame a complete outsider. What Oswald exactly was involved in is another matter.

That Oswald was involved in the assassination of JFK is "one hell of an assumption"?
Really?
It's just something I plucked out of thin air?
Get a grip.

Hindsight and speculation! Whaley's testimony does not support that Oswald was "on the run".

Of course it's speculation. My whole post is speculation. It's opinions and assumptions.
I've made that perfectly clear in the post.
Why can't you understand something so simple.
Oswald asking to be dropped on 500 block and getting out on 700 block when he lives at 1026 is strange behaviour.
It can be explained by Oswald being on the run and wanting to check out whether the coast was clear outside his rooming house.
If you have a better piece of speculation let's hear it.

No. It might have been Roberts' impression that Oswald was in a hurry, but that doesn't mean he actually was. And the bus transfer ticket doesn't prove anything of the kind. Even if the transfer did in fact belong to Oswald, that still doesn't mean that he was on his way to a bus stop at Marsalis and Jefferson

You've not read the memo I posted have you.
Read it, then comment.

Now, you are only making things up and claiming it makes sense. In reality you have no idea whatsoever what route Oswald took, if he was indeed Tippit's killler. Markham may have seen him when he was walking east, but other witnesses saw him walking west first. The whole thing is pure 100% speculation.

Well done.
You're getting it.
It's 100% speculation.
Well done.
Markham testified to seeing him crossing Patton and walking east followed shortly by Tippit. If that is the case, and I'm not saying it's a fact, but if her testimony on this point is reliable then he came from North Crawford, as did Tippit.
Remember, it was you who brought Markham into it.

Who said that Oswald had to get to Marsalis and Jefferson by 1:15 PM?

I did.
Don't you get it.
I did as part of my speculating.
If you'd read the memo you'd understand where I'm getting that idea from.
But you've not.

With enough speculation you can get anybody to do anything, but I can just as easily speculate that Oswald left the rooming house and went straight to the Texas Theater, where Burrows saw him at 1:07 PM.

How would you explain Brewer's testimony. That he watched Oswald go into the Texas Theater.

You can't build a house on quicksand (i.e. speculations) and expect it will survive the first storm.