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Author Topic: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer  (Read 1399790 times)

Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2653 on: May 22, 2022, 09:31:36 PM »
Can it realistically be the case that within 40 minutes later a six minute discrepancy emerges between the two "times".
Do the police tapes reveal something that may have contributed to such a discrepancy?


Not sure where the 6 minute discrepancy comes from. I think it's probably closer to about 5 minutes.

Let's consider the circumstances;

First of all, prior to the assassination there was only normal radio traffic. It is possible, and certainly within an acceptable range, that prior to 12:30 the police radio and other clocks were already two minutes off from the actual time. Bowles said it was not uncommon for that to happen;

"Therefore, it was not uncommon for the time stamped on calls to be a minute to two ahead or behind the "official" time shown on the master clock. Accordingly, at "exactly" 10:10, various clocks could be stamping from 10:08 to 10:12, for example."

After the assassination, the radio traffic explodes, which causes the dispatchers to call times too late, as Bowles said could happen.

"In addition to the times stamped on calls by telephone operators, the radio operators stamped the "time" as calls were dispatched, and the "time" that officers completed an assignment and returned to service. Radio operators were also furnished with 12-hour digital clocks to facilitate their time references when they were not using call sheets containing stamped time. These digital clocks were not synchronized with any time standard. Therefore, the time "actual" and time "broadcast" could easily be a minute or so apart."

"Next, consideration should be given to the methods of individual radio operators. A given operator at a given time might broadcast "time" a little early in one event then a little late the next. Accordingly, a call initiated at, say, 10:10 might be stamped at 10:13 by the dispatcher, only to have intervening radio traffic delay his broadcast. He might go ahead and announce the dispatch time as 10:13 and the digital clock then showed 10:14."

And then there is the problem that sound activated machines were being used, providing no guarantee for accurate time keeping.

A six or five minute discrepancy might, at first glance, seem excessive, but given the many variables it is certainly possible. It becomes even more likely when one considers three external elements that all point in the same direction;

1. Markham testified she left her home on 9th street at 1:06 or 1:07. She had a two block walk (about 4 minutes) to go to get to the bus stop on Jefferson where she estimated she got on the bus at 1:15. If Tippit was killed at 1:14 / 1:15, Markham would not have been on the corner of 10th and Patton to watch it.

2. Bowley had just picked up his 12 year old daughter from school and was en route to pick up his wife from work. The school bel rang at 12:55 and the drive from school to 10th street took about 13 minutes. Even if it had taken him roughly 20 minutes, that would still have Bowley arriving at the Tippit scene at around 1:14 or 1:15, which is when the shooting allegedly took place. But when he arrived at the scene the killer was already gone and Benavides was trying work the radio. Bowley said that he looked at his watch and it said 1:10 and the timing of his drive confirms that time must have been about correct, give or take a minute perhaps.

3. Tippit was declared D.O.A. at Methodist Hospital at 1:15 and DPD officer Davenport confirms that time in two different reports.

Either all these three events, combined, must be wrong or the time calls on DPD radio are wrong. 

Online Dan O'meara

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2654 on: May 23, 2022, 12:33:11 AM »
Can it realistically be the case that within 40 minutes later a six minute discrepancy emerges between the two "times".
Do the police tapes reveal something that may have contributed to such a discrepancy?


Not sure where the 6 minute discrepancy comes from. I think it's probably closer to about 5 minutes.

Let's call it a 5 minute discrepancy.
It is still quite a substantial difference.

Quote
Let's consider the circumstances;

First of all, prior to the assassination there was only normal radio traffic. It is possible, and certainly within an acceptable range, that prior to 12:30 the police radio and other clocks were already two minutes off from the actual time. Bowles said it was not uncommon for that to happen;

"Therefore, it was not uncommon for the time stamped on calls to be a minute to two ahead or behind the "official" time shown on the master clock. Accordingly, at "exactly" 10:10, various clocks could be stamping from 10:08 to 10:12, for example."

After the assassination, the radio traffic explodes, which causes the dispatchers to call times too late, as Bowles said could happen.

"In addition to the times stamped on calls by telephone operators, the radio operators stamped the "time" as calls were dispatched, and the "time" that officers completed an assignment and returned to service. Radio operators were also furnished with 12-hour digital clocks to facilitate their time references when they were not using call sheets containing stamped time. These digital clocks were not synchronized with any time standard. Therefore, the time "actual" and time "broadcast" could easily be a minute or so apart."

"Next, consideration should be given to the methods of individual radio operators. A given operator at a given time might broadcast "time" a little early in one event then a little late the next. Accordingly, a call initiated at, say, 10:10 might be stamped at 10:13 by the dispatcher, only to have intervening radio traffic delay his broadcast. He might go ahead and announce the dispatch time as 10:13 and the digital clock then showed 10:14."

And then there is the problem that sound activated machines were being used, providing no guarantee for accurate time keeping.

Bowles is describing things that "could" happen or "might" happen and not what "did" happen.
The evidence I have provided in my previous post demonstrates the 12:30pm timestamp on channel 2 was correct as it is corroborated by other "external" sources. It may not have been accurate to the second but it was to the minute.
As such, the idea that the dispatchers clock might have been out as much as two minutes at 12:30pm can be dispensed with.
This is not to say the discrepancy couldn't have crept in after 12:30pm but it is important to get some kind of corroboration for this.

I have also presented the evidence of Brewer appearing in the Allen pic riding the wrong way up Elm St at 12:39pm (according to the Hertz clock). In the DP tape transcript Brewer is dealing with a witness near the triple underpass between 12:37pm and 12:40pm [timestamps on channel 2]. After agreeing to leave the witness there he drives the wrong way up Elm St where he is photographed at 12:39pm. It can be said with some confidence that this evidence precludes a five minute gap at this period.


Quote
A six or five minute discrepancy might, at first glance, seem excessive, but given the many variables it is certainly possible. It becomes even more likely when one considers three external elements that all point in the same direction;

1. Markham testified she left her home on 9th street at 1:06 or 1:07. She had a two block walk (about 4 minutes) to go to get to the bus stop on Jefferson where she estimated she got on the bus at 1:15. If Tippit was killed at 1:14 / 1:15, Markham would not have been on the corner of 10th and Patton to watch it.

2. Bowley had just picked up his 12 year old daughter from school and was en route to pick up his wife from work. The school bel rang at 12:55 and the drive from school to 10th street took about 13 minutes. Even if it had taken him roughly 20 minutes, that would still have Bowley arriving at the Tippit scene at around 1:14 or 1:15, which is when the shooting allegedly took place. But when he arrived at the scene the killer was already gone and Benavides was trying work the radio. Bowley said that he looked at his watch and it said 1:10 and the timing of his drive confirms that time must have been about correct, give or take a minute perhaps.

3. Tippit was declared D.O.A. at Methodist Hospital at 1:15 and DPD officer Davenport confirms that time in two different reports.

Either all these three events, combined, must be wrong or the time calls on DPD radio are wrong.

Obviously I'm aware of this evidence but am trying to approach the problem from a different angle - how the events in and around Dealey Plaza relate to Bowley's call on the police radio, in terms of timing.
It is notable that the radio traffic on channel 1 is very intense for the period in question (far more so than channel 2) and, considering Bowles' insights, it seems likely some kind of discrepancy to crept in.
But 5 minutes?


Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2655 on: May 23, 2022, 12:58:16 AM »
Let's call it a 5 minute discrepancy.
It is still quite a substantial difference.

Bowles is describing things that "could" happen or "might" happen and not what "did" happen.
The evidence I have provided in my previous post demonstrates the 12:30pm timestamp on channel 2 was correct as it is corroborated by other "external" sources. It may not have been accurate to the second but it was to the minute.
As such, the idea that the dispatchers clock might have been out as much as two minutes at 12:30pm can be dispensed with.
This is not to say the discrepancy couldn't have crept in after 12:30pm but it is important to get some kind of corroboration for this.

I have also presented the evidence of Brewer appearing in the Allen pic riding the wrong way up Elm St at 12:39pm (according to the Hertz clock). In the DP tape transcript Brewer is dealing with a witness near the triple underpass between 12:37pm and 12:40pm [timestamps on channel 2]. After agreeing to leave the witness there he drives the wrong way up Elm St where he is photographed at 12:39pm. It can be said with some confidence that this evidence precludes a five minute gap at this period.


Obviously I'm aware of this evidence but am trying to approach the problem from a different angle - how the events in and around Dealey Plaza relate to Bowley's call on the police radio, in terms of timing.
It is notable that the radio traffic on channel 1 is very intense for the period in question (far more so than channel 2) and, considering Bowles' insights, it seems likely some kind of discrepancy to crept in.
But 5 minutes?

It is notable that the radio traffic on channel 1 is very intense for the period in question (far more so than channel 2) and, considering Bowles' insights, it seems likely some kind of discrepancy to crept in.
But 5 minutes?


Fair enough, but how much time do you think the discrepancy could be?

Online Dan O'meara

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2656 on: May 23, 2022, 01:35:23 AM »
It is notable that the radio traffic on channel 1 is very intense for the period in question (far more so than channel 2) and, considering Bowles' insights, it seems likely some kind of discrepancy to crept in.
But 5 minutes?


Fair enough, but how much time do you think the discrepancy could be?

At the moment I can't find anything that might support a discrepancy of more than 3 minutes at the very most.

Offline Vincent Baxter

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2657 on: May 23, 2022, 02:22:40 AM »
Out of my quite substantial post you pick one line:

"And who's to say the Hertz clock represents "real" time."

To which your response is - "Exactly"

And in one line you've pretty much summed up Iacoletti
Takes one line from a lengthy post, takes it completely out of context and then argues against a point that you weren't even making in the first place  ::).

Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2658 on: May 23, 2022, 02:27:23 AM »
And in one line you've pretty much summed up Iacoletti
Takes one line from a lengthy post, takes it completely out of context and then argues against a point that you weren't even making in the first place  ::).

Mytton didn't have time?  :D

Offline Vincent Baxter

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2659 on: May 23, 2022, 02:51:15 AM »
Mytton didn't have time?  :D

Have time for what? Well done on attempting a joke that didn't actually make sense.

Have you calmed down from your explosive rant and excessive 'throwing your toys out of the pram' moment with regards to the $25,000 challenge that got our previous thread disabled yet, Weidmann?
Still haven't received a PM with the contact info for yours (and Otto's) solicitors yet.  :-\