Lee Oswald The Cop Killer

[Dan O'meara]

Real time in this context would be the precise time according to the USNO master clock or its equivalent.

Agreed that this is the best you can offer, but it doesn't demonstrate that they are actually independent.  Or correct.

You think all of your arguments are solid.  I agree that the Hertz clock visible in the McIntyre photo appears to show 12:30 when the motorcade is going through the underpass.  What we don't know is how accurate the Hertz clock was.

You don't know what you don't know.

That's not a "problem" for me.  I'm not attached to any particular outcome  -- I just expect truth claims to be proven.  At best, you can assert that the Hertz clock is close to what the channel 2 dispatcher announced the time as on the extant recordings (assuming they are authentic and haven't been edited in the relevant timeframe).  But that doesn't tell you that these times are correct.  Or that they are any help with determining the actual time of the Tippit shooting.

I too applaud your efforts to look for a way to reliably synchronize the dispatcher time announcements.  I just don't think you have found one yet that doesn't depend on handwaving.

"Common sense" is what people appeal to when they don't have evidence.

It's not an argument, but it does point out how much special pleading goes on here.  Do you accept the "four independent sources" argument of people's memories about what their watches said as solid evidence of accuracy or not?

No, that doesn't confirm a damn thing unless you can demonstrate that the two announcements occurred at the same time as each other.

What misrepresentation?

"Common sense" is what people appeal to when they don't have evidence.

To suggest I'm not providing evidence is ridiculous and misrepresentative.
Juries use common sense all the time to determine which "narrative" is the most realistic/probable.
The narrative emerges from the totality of evidence available for any particular case, it determines (and is determined by) how each piece of evidence is interpreted.
The "Prosecution Narrative" in the case of JFK's assassination is well known, it is the narrative espoused by all LNers. To counter it, there must be a "Defense Narrative" that has emerged from the same evidence available to the Prosecution. This is the reason why all the pseudo-defense attorneys who inhabit this forum are irrelevant and always will be - they never provide a "Defense Narrative".
Any first year Philosophy student should be able to competently argue that nothing really exists, any student of Solipsism can competently argue that nothing exists outside their own minds but it's just word games.
Endlessly arguing against the validity/reality of every single piece of evidence/witness testimony is child's play, demands for some kind of absolute "Truth" in this case are meaningless. We are left with determining which narrative is most realistic, most probable, and "common sense" is key to making this determination.

EVIDENCE #1

The McIntire pic below, taken from the Unger gallery, shows the Hertz clock reading 12:30pm.
Is the picture faked? I'm going to assume it isn't.
Do McIntire and Unger really exist? I'm going to assume they do.
That's what my common sense tells me. So whatever I present is never going to be an "Absolute Truth" as this is impossible to do.



The above pic is taken seconds after the assassination.
I can't actually prove this is the case as the vehicles in question may have all pulled over for a minute or two and any witnesses who saw this may have been executed. But my common sense is telling me this didn't happen so I am going to assume it was taken seconds after the assassination.
Just so I don't have to constantly justify every single comment I make let's assume the notions I do put forward are not Unassailable Facts or Absolute Truths. Let's just assume they are assumptions dictated by common sense.

EVIDENCE #2

The screenshot below shows the moment in the DP tape transcripts that the assassination occurs:



Curry states they are approaching the triple underpass.
The dispatcher gives the timestamp 12:30 (and KKB 364 - does anyone know what this means?)
The very next call is Curry - "Go to the hospital - Parkland Hospital. Have them stand by."
My common sense is telling me this is a reference to the assassination.
Although there is a four minute gap between timestamps at this point, as this call is the very first given after the 12:30pm timestamp I'm going to assume Curry's call occurred at 12:30pm, the reason being just before the timestamp Curry states that his vehicle is approaching the underpass and the assassination takes place before Curry's car has actually reached the underpass.

EVIDENCE #3

Dave Powers "was Special Assistant and assistant Appointments Secretary" to JFK.
My common sense is telling me that the assistant Appointments Secretary to the most powerful man on the planet is someone very concerned with timekeeping. Powers indicates this in his statement regarding the assassination:

"At that time we were traveling very slowly, no more than 12 miles an hour. In accordance with my custom, I was very much concerned about our timing and at just about that point I looked at my watch and noted that it was almost exactly 12:30 p.m.,"

As was his custom, he kept a close eye on his watch regarding the timekeeping of JFK's appointments. They were running late and should have been at the Trade Mart for 12:30pm. Powers actually makes this point to O' Donnell:

"I commented to Ken O'Donnell that it was 12:30 and we would only be about five minutes late when we arrived at the Trade Mart."

Powers had a very specific reason to be aware of the time, he was riding in the Presidetial follow-up car which was already on Elm Street when he checked his watch so the assassination was only seconds away.
Seconds before the assassination took place the assistant Appointments Secretary to JFK noted the time was 12:30pm. My common sense tells me that a man in his position would be very concerned with the accuracy of his timepiece.

EVIDENCE #4

SA Greer testifies to the Warren Commission as follows:

Mr. Greer: After he had said to me, he said, "12:30," and that is all I remember him saying to me was 12:30, and he had communications with the cars but I don't remember what he had said to them.
Mr. Specter: Did he say just "12:30," or was it 12:30 used in a sentence?
Mr. Greer: He said "12:30." He looked at his watch, he said "12:30," and we were in the underpass at the time.


"He [Kellerman] looked at his watch, he said "12:30"
Greer witnesses Kellerman look at his watch and then hears him say "12:30". My common sense is telling me that Kellerman's watch was reading 12:30pm which is why he said "12:30". This happened when they were in underpass, seconds after the assassination.

Four pieces of evidence all pointing to 12:30pm as the time of the assassination. More importantly, it demonstrates that the Hertz clock and the watches of Greer and Powers all agreed with the timestamp of 12:30pm given on the DP police tapes.
In terms of events happening in the world outside the dispatchers offices, events specifically connected with the assassination of JFK, it is more than reasonable to conclude that "police time" [the timestamps of the police dispatchers] and "real time" [the events connected with the assassination] are synchronised.

Can it realistically be the case that within 40 minutes later a six minute discrepancy emerges between the two "times".
Do the police tapes reveal something that may have contributed to such a discrepancy?

[Martin Weidmann]

Can it realistically be the case that within 40 minutes later a six minute discrepancy emerges between the two "times".
Do the police tapes reveal something that may have contributed to such a discrepancy?

Not sure where the 6 minute discrepancy comes from. I think it's probably closer to about 5 minutes.

Let's consider the circumstances;

First of all, prior to the assassination there was only normal radio traffic. It is possible, and certainly within an acceptable range, that prior to 12:30 the police radio and other clocks were already two minutes off from the actual time. Bowles said it was not uncommon for that to happen;

"Therefore, it was not uncommon for the time stamped on calls to be a minute to two ahead or behind the "official" time shown on the master clock. Accordingly, at "exactly" 10:10, various clocks could be stamping from 10:08 to 10:12, for example."

After the assassination, the radio traffic explodes, which causes the dispatchers to call times too late, as Bowles said could happen.

"In addition to the times stamped on calls by telephone operators, the radio operators stamped the "time" as calls were dispatched, and the "time" that officers completed an assignment and returned to service. Radio operators were also furnished with 12-hour digital clocks to facilitate their time references when they were not using call sheets containing stamped time. These digital clocks were not synchronized with any time standard. Therefore, the time "actual" and time "broadcast" could easily be a minute or so apart."

"Next, consideration should be given to the methods of individual radio operators. A given operator at a given time might broadcast "time" a little early in one event then a little late the next. Accordingly, a call initiated at, say, 10:10 might be stamped at 10:13 by the dispatcher, only to have intervening radio traffic delay his broadcast. He might go ahead and announce the dispatch time as 10:13 and the digital clock then showed 10:14."

And then there is the problem that sound activated machines were being used, providing no guarantee for accurate time keeping.

A six or five minute discrepancy might, at first glance, seem excessive, but given the many variables it is certainly possible. It becomes even more likely when one considers three external elements that all point in the same direction;

1. Markham testified she left her home on 9th street at 1:06 or 1:07. She had a two block walk (about 4 minutes) to go to get to the bus stop on Jefferson where she estimated she got on the bus at 1:15. If Tippit was killed at 1:14 / 1:15, Markham would not have been on the corner of 10th and Patton to watch it.

2. Bowley had just picked up his 12 year old daughter from school and was en route to pick up his wife from work. The school bel rang at 12:55 and the drive from school to 10th street took about 13 minutes. Even if it had taken him roughly 20 minutes, that would still have Bowley arriving at the Tippit scene at around 1:14 or 1:15, which is when the shooting allegedly took place. But when he arrived at the scene the killer was already gone and Benavides was trying work the radio. Bowley said that he looked at his watch and it said 1:10 and the timing of his drive confirms that time must have been about correct, give or take a minute perhaps.

3. Tippit was declared D.O.A. at Methodist Hospital at 1:15 and DPD officer Davenport confirms that time in two different reports.

Either all these three events, combined, must be wrong or the time calls on DPD radio are wrong. 

[Dan O'meara]

Can it realistically be the case that within 40 minutes later a six minute discrepancy emerges between the two "times".
Do the police tapes reveal something that may have contributed to such a discrepancy?

Not sure where the 6 minute discrepancy comes from. I think it's probably closer to about 5 minutes.

Let's call it a 5 minute discrepancy.
It is still quite a substantial difference.

Let's consider the circumstances;

First of all, prior to the assassination there was only normal radio traffic. It is possible, and certainly within an acceptable range, that prior to 12:30 the police radio and other clocks were already two minutes off from the actual time. Bowles said it was not uncommon for that to happen;

"Therefore, it was not uncommon for the time stamped on calls to be a minute to two ahead or behind the "official" time shown on the master clock. Accordingly, at "exactly" 10:10, various clocks could be stamping from 10:08 to 10:12, for example."

After the assassination, the radio traffic explodes, which causes the dispatchers to call times too late, as Bowles said could happen.

"In addition to the times stamped on calls by telephone operators, the radio operators stamped the "time" as calls were dispatched, and the "time" that officers completed an assignment and returned to service. Radio operators were also furnished with 12-hour digital clocks to facilitate their time references when they were not using call sheets containing stamped time. These digital clocks were not synchronized with any time standard. Therefore, the time "actual" and time "broadcast" could easily be a minute or so apart."

"Next, consideration should be given to the methods of individual radio operators. A given operator at a given time might broadcast "time" a little early in one event then a little late the next. Accordingly, a call initiated at, say, 10:10 might be stamped at 10:13 by the dispatcher, only to have intervening radio traffic delay his broadcast. He might go ahead and announce the dispatch time as 10:13 and the digital clock then showed 10:14."

And then there is the problem that sound activated machines were being used, providing no guarantee for accurate time keeping.

Bowles is describing things that "could" happen or "might" happen and not what "did" happen.
The evidence I have provided in my previous post demonstrates the 12:30pm timestamp on channel 2 was correct as it is corroborated by other "external" sources. It may not have been accurate to the second but it was to the minute.
As such, the idea that the dispatchers clock might have been out as much as two minutes at 12:30pm can be dispensed with.
This is not to say the discrepancy couldn't have crept in after 12:30pm but it is important to get some kind of corroboration for this.

I have also presented the evidence of Brewer appearing in the Allen pic riding the wrong way up Elm St at 12:39pm (according to the Hertz clock). In the DP tape transcript Brewer is dealing with a witness near the triple underpass between 12:37pm and 12:40pm [timestamps on channel 2]. After agreeing to leave the witness there he drives the wrong way up Elm St where he is photographed at 12:39pm. It can be said with some confidence that this evidence precludes a five minute gap at this period.

A six or five minute discrepancy might, at first glance, seem excessive, but given the many variables it is certainly possible. It becomes even more likely when one considers three external elements that all point in the same direction;

1. Markham testified she left her home on 9th street at 1:06 or 1:07. She had a two block walk (about 4 minutes) to go to get to the bus stop on Jefferson where she estimated she got on the bus at 1:15. If Tippit was killed at 1:14 / 1:15, Markham would not have been on the corner of 10th and Patton to watch it.

2. Bowley had just picked up his 12 year old daughter from school and was en route to pick up his wife from work. The school bel rang at 12:55 and the drive from school to 10th street took about 13 minutes. Even if it had taken him roughly 20 minutes, that would still have Bowley arriving at the Tippit scene at around 1:14 or 1:15, which is when the shooting allegedly took place. But when he arrived at the scene the killer was already gone and Benavides was trying work the radio. Bowley said that he looked at his watch and it said 1:10 and the timing of his drive confirms that time must have been about correct, give or take a minute perhaps.

3. Tippit was declared D.O.A. at Methodist Hospital at 1:15 and DPD officer Davenport confirms that time in two different reports.

Either all these three events, combined, must be wrong or the time calls on DPD radio are wrong.

Obviously I'm aware of this evidence but am trying to approach the problem from a different angle - how the events in and around Dealey Plaza relate to Bowley's call on the police radio, in terms of timing.
It is notable that the radio traffic on channel 1 is very intense for the period in question (far more so than channel 2) and, considering Bowles' insights, it seems likely some kind of discrepancy to crept in.
But 5 minutes?

[Martin Weidmann]

Let's call it a 5 minute discrepancy.
It is still quite a substantial difference.

Bowles is describing things that "could" happen or "might" happen and not what "did" happen.
The evidence I have provided in my previous post demonstrates the 12:30pm timestamp on channel 2 was correct as it is corroborated by other "external" sources. It may not have been accurate to the second but it was to the minute.
As such, the idea that the dispatchers clock might have been out as much as two minutes at 12:30pm can be dispensed with.
This is not to say the discrepancy couldn't have crept in after 12:30pm but it is important to get some kind of corroboration for this.

I have also presented the evidence of Brewer appearing in the Allen pic riding the wrong way up Elm St at 12:39pm (according to the Hertz clock). In the DP tape transcript Brewer is dealing with a witness near the triple underpass between 12:37pm and 12:40pm [timestamps on channel 2]. After agreeing to leave the witness there he drives the wrong way up Elm St where he is photographed at 12:39pm. It can be said with some confidence that this evidence precludes a five minute gap at this period.


Obviously I'm aware of this evidence but am trying to approach the problem from a different angle - how the events in and around Dealey Plaza relate to Bowley's call on the police radio, in terms of timing.
It is notable that the radio traffic on channel 1 is very intense for the period in question (far more so than channel 2) and, considering Bowles' insights, it seems likely some kind of discrepancy to crept in.
But 5 minutes?

It is notable that the radio traffic on channel 1 is very intense for the period in question (far more so than channel 2) and, considering Bowles' insights, it seems likely some kind of discrepancy to crept in.
But 5 minutes?

Fair enough, but how much time do you think the discrepancy could be?

[Dan O'meara]

It is notable that the radio traffic on channel 1 is very intense for the period in question (far more so than channel 2) and, considering Bowles' insights, it seems likely some kind of discrepancy to crept in.
But 5 minutes?

Fair enough, but how much time do you think the discrepancy could be?

At the moment I can't find anything that might support a discrepancy of more than 3 minutes at the very most.

[Vincent Baxter]

Out of my quite substantial post you pick one line:

"And who's to say the Hertz clock represents "real" time."

To which your response is - "Exactly"

And in one line you've pretty much summed up Iacoletti
Takes one line from a lengthy post, takes it completely out of context and then argues against a point that you weren't even making in the first place  .

[Martin Weidmann]

And in one line you've pretty much summed up Iacoletti
Takes one line from a lengthy post, takes it completely out of context and then argues against a point that you weren't even making in the first place  .

Mytton didn't have time? 

[Vincent Baxter]

Mytton didn't have time? 

Have time for what? Well done on attempting a joke that didn't actually make sense.

Have you calmed down from your explosive rant and excessive 'throwing your toys out of the pram' moment with regards to the $25,000 challenge that got our previous thread disabled yet, Weidmann?
Still haven't received a PM with the contact info for yours (and Otto's) solicitors yet.