Lee Oswald The Cop Killer

[Bill Brown]

So Markham could remember a clock face but couldn't remember a human face?

JohnM

Classic 

Classic   

[Charles Collins]

Can you say the same about T.F. Bowley?

Actually, yes I can. Bowley was acutely aware of the time because, just prior to arriving at 10th/Patton he had picked up his daughter from school. When he got to 10th, he was on his way to pick up his wife from work. Do you really think that Bowley would have left his daughter waiting outside the schoolgates without noticing it?

But the mere fact that you need to ask this question tells me all I need to know about just how basic you knowledge of the details of this case truly is.

Your point being? That the clock atop the TSBD was correct because Merriman Smith made a report?

Well, if you had done a bit of research you would have discovered very quickly that Merriman Smith's radio call was actually on air at 12:34.!

Actually, yes I can. Bowley was acutely aware of the time because, just prior to arriving at 10th/Patton he had picked up his daughter from school. When he got to 10th, he was on his way to pick up his wife from work. Do you really think that Bowley would have left his daughter waiting outside the schoolgates without noticing it?

Thomas Atkins was a naval officer who was assigned to the White House to document the President's activities. He was chosen for that position because he was good at his job in the navy. His job required that had to be at events on time. The President wasn't likely to wait for Atkins to catch up (because his wristwatch was out of sync). They had all just traveled from Washington DC to a different (central) time zone on 11/21/63. Therefore Atkins would have needed to set his wristwatch to central time. That would have been a logical, and likely, reason to  sync his wristwatch with the official time.

Do you expect us to believe that it is just as likely that Bowley recently synced his watch with official time because he had the important duty of picking up his daughter and wife?


Well, if you had done a bit of research you would have discovered very quickly that Merriman Smith's radio call was actually on air at 12:34.!

Was it a taped delay broadcast, or live?

Walt makes a lot of things up. But I do believe I remember reading this comment elsewhere a long time ago.

[Ray Mitcham]

How does Markham's positive identification have anything to do with Ball's badly phrased question?

So Markham could remember a clock face but couldn't remember a human face?

JohnM

  Trouble with that comment is that Mrs Markham didn't have to remember a clock face just the time

[Charles Collins]

Yes, indeed your mistake. One that shows just how little you pay attention!

Instead of dealing with a single word, which it seems you don't like, why don't you try to deal with the facts for once?

it is not a part of the discussion that the rest of us are having

Who else is in the discussion, except for you and me? And as I am part of the discussion, the word "exact" is indeed part of the discussion.

So, let's go back to basics;

I have tried this serveral times in the past, but so far no LNr has even tried to come up with a plausible scenario for Markham still being at 10th/Patton at 1:14 or 1:15 when she testified she left home "a little after 1" and the one block walk from her home on 9th street to the corner of 10th street and Patton would have taken her only 2, perhaps 3 minutes. Markham estimated in her testimony that she took the 1.15 bus to work every day. And before you go there, yes I know that according to the bus schedule (which btw nobody has ever been able to show me) there was a bus at 1.12 and one at 1.22. It actually doesn't matter which bus Markham was talking about, because a walk of two blocks to the bus stop would have taken her no more than 6 minutes. So, if she left home "a little after 1" she would have easily been at the bus stop on Jefferson at around 1.15 and thus not at 10th/Patton. In other words, Tippit must have been shot earlier than 1.15, most likely around 1.06, because otherwise Markham could not have witnessed it.

The same thing goes for Bowley. He arrived after Tippit was killed. In his affidavit he said he picked up his daughter at R.L. Thornton School in Singing Hills at "about 12:55". School bells, in my experience, have a tendency to ring at the correct time every day! Now, let's also not forget that, after picking up his daughter, Bowley was also going to pick up his wife from work, to go on a family holiday and thus had every reason to be on time and be aware of the time! The drive from the school to 10th/Patton is about 7 miles long and takes roughly 13 minutes, depending on the route, making it absolutely possible and plausible for him to arrive at 10th street at 1.10 pm, like he said he did in his affidavit.

Bowley also said in his affidavit that he saw the ambulance arrive and pick up Tippit's body just after his radio call (which he made within a minute or so after arriving on the scene). Hospital records show that Tippit was declared DOA at 1:15 at Methodist Hospital, on North Beckley, about 1,5 miles from the scene of the crime. DPD office Davenport says in his report that, while en route, he saw and followed the ambulance to the hospital where he witnessed Tippit being declared dead at 1:15.

Markham's and Bowley's timelines alone justify, IMO, the conclusion that Tippit was in fact shot before 1:10 pm, which makes it nearly impossible for Oswald to have been there. But perhaps the LNs can provide a plausible scenario for these two timelines to be wrong...? I'll wait and see, but I won't hold my breath.

Care to explain how this evidence relates to the DPD dispatcher's time calls from clocks which could be two minutes ahead or behind official and recorded on voice actived devices? On second thought, perhaps you should just stick to posting gifs. You are far better in doing that than having a normal discussion!

Instead of dealing with a single word, which it seems you don't like, why don't you try to deal with the facts for once?

it is not a part of the discussion that the rest of us are having

Who else is in the discussion, except for you and me? And as I am part of the discussion, the word "exact" is indeed part of the discussion.

Several others are in the discussion. But don't believe me, look for yourself.

Exact: not approximated in any way; precise.

Your use of the word in this discussion is ridiculous. Bowles attempted to determine the timing of the shots down to the hundredth of a second for his purpose of rebuttal of the acoustics experts' report. Even that tolerance isn't "exact." A thousandth of a second is more precise than a hundredth of a second. Atomic clocks are among the most precise timepieces in the world, but even they are not perfect.

But you go on and use the word exact if you wish. And show the world just how ridiculous you are.


Markham's and Bowley's timelines alone justify, IMO, the conclusion that Tippit was in fact shot before 1:10 pm, which makes it nearly impossible for Oswald to have been there.

That is just absurd. What you are doing is making an ad hoc assumption that their timelines were accurate because that fits your crazy idea that it was impossible for Oswald to have been there. The point I have been making is that the voice timestamps on the DPD recordings are not meaningless.

[Martin Weidmann]

Instead of dealing with a single word, which it seems you don't like, why don't you try to deal with the facts for once?

it is not a part of the discussion that the rest of us are having

Who else is in the discussion, except for you and me? And as I am part of the discussion, the word "exact" is indeed part of the discussion.

Several others are in the discussion. But don't believe me, look for yourself.

Exact: not approximated in any way; precise.

Your use of the word in this discussion is ridiculous. Bowles attempted to determine the timing of the shots down to the hundredth of a second for his purpose of rebuttal of the acoustics experts' report. Even that tolerance isn't "exact." A thousandth of a second is more precise than a hundredth of a second. Atomic clocks are among the most precise timepieces in the world, but even they are not perfect.

But you go on and use the word exact if you wish. And show the world just how ridiculous you are.


Markham's and Bowley's timelines alone justify, IMO, the conclusion that Tippit was in fact shot before 1:10 pm, which makes it nearly impossible for Oswald to have been there.

That is just absurd. What you are doing is making an ad hoc assumption that their timelines were accurate because that fits your crazy idea that it was impossible for Oswald to have been there. The point I have been making is that the voice timestamps on the DPD recordings are not meaningless.

That is just absurd. What you are doing is making an ad hoc assumption that their timelines were accurate because that fits your crazy idea that it was impossible for Oswald to have been there.

What is absurd is your inability to deal with what I actually wrote.

I never assumed that their timelines were accurate (as far as estimates go) but I concluded instead that their timelines are linked. Markham saw Tippit being killed and Bowley arrived just after that happened. What is not variable are the distances Markham needed to walk from her home to 10th/Patton (one block) and the bus stop on Jefferson (two blocks) which makes it possible to determine the time needed to walk those distances. Also not variable is the distance Bowley needed to drive from the school where he picked up his daughter to 10th/Patton and the time required for that. And finally, what is not variable is that school are out at the same time every day.

Markham only had to walk one block, taking no more than three minutes at best, to get from her home to 10th/Patton. If Tippit was indeed shot at 1:14 and she saw it, it means that she did not leave home until 1:09 at the lastest. But that would also mean that Bowley would have arrived at least five or six minutes later than the 1:10 that his watch showed, which in turn means he must have kept his daughter waiting for that same amount of time after school was out and not notice it. Do you really think that's likely?

Markham also said that she usually catched the bus at 1:15. The FBI told us the bus schedule had busses arriving at 1:12 and 1:22, so she must have been talking about either the 1:12 bus that was delayed by a couple of minutes or the 1:22 for which she would have been at the bus stop 7 minutes early. It really does not matter which bus it was, because if Markham did indeed normally arrive at the bus stop at 1:15 she simply could not have been at 10th/Patton a minute earlier to witness Tippit's murder if that happened at 1:14 because she would have passed that location at least three minutes earlier.

So, if you wish to push back Markham's timeline to fit Tippit being murdered at 1.14 you also have to push back Bowley's timeline with the same amount of time thus making it inevitable that he would have been late at the school to pick up his daughter and somehow not notice it.

And then of course there is the report of DPD officer Davenport who followed the ambulance to Methodist Hospital on Beckley and said Tippit was declared DOA at 1:15. There is no way that Tippit could have been at the hospital at 1:15 if he was shot at 10th street only a minute earlier.

The only real variable in all this is the estimated time that Tippit was shot. If he was shot between 1:06 and 1:10 the entire timeline fits perfectly and makes sense, but if he was killed at 1:14 nothing else of the combined timelines fits.

The point I have been making is that the voice timestamps on the DPD recordings are not meaningless.

Nobody said those transcripts (because that's what we have) are meaningless. There is just simply no guarantee that the times called by the dispatcher were indeed accurate in the real world. Bowles himself said that the clocks used could be as much as two minutes behind or ahead of "offical time". In other words, if the dispatcher calls 1:16 it could very well have been 1:14 or 1:18 in the real world. Such a margin of error alone means that you can not use the transcripts to pin point the exact time of the shooting! 

[John Iacoletti]

Thomas Atkins was documenting the activities of the President. It was an important aspect of his job to be able to pinpoint the time that these activities occurred. He was on the job at the time of the assassination. Does it seem very likely that he would let his wristwatch be very far off the official time? Can you say the same about T.F. Bowley?

That's a call for speculation and doesn't mean much.

I could just as easily say T.F. Bowley was picking up his daughter from school.  It was an important aspect of his job as a parent to be able to pinpoint the time that she was ready to be picked up so as not to leave her unattended.  Does it seem very likely that he would let his wristwatch be very far off the official time?

[Charles Collins]

That is just absurd. What you are doing is making an ad hoc assumption that their timelines were accurate because that fits your crazy idea that it was impossible for Oswald to have been there.

What is absurd is your inability to deal with what I actually wrote.

I never assumed that their timelines were accurate (as far as estimates go) but I concluded instead that their timelines are linked. Markham saw Tippit being killed and Bowley arrived just after that happened. What is not variable are the distances Markham needed to walk from her home to 10th/Patton (one block) and the bus stop on Jefferson (two blocks) which makes it possible to determine the time needed to walk those distances. Also not variable is the distance Bowley needed to drive from the school where he picked up his daughter to 10th/Patton and the time required for that. And finally, what is not variable is that school are out at the same time every day.

Markham only had to walk one block, taking no more than three minutes at best, to get from her home to 10th/Patton. If Tippit was indeed shot at 1:14 and she saw it, it means that she did not leave home until 1:09 at the lastest. But that would also mean that Bowley would have arrived at least five or six minutes later than the 1:10 that his watch showed, which in turn means he must have kept his daughter waiting for that same amount of time after school was out and not notice it. Do you really think that's likely?

Markham also said that she usually catched the bus at 1:15. The FBI told us the bus schedule had busses arriving at 1:12 and 1:22, so she must have been talking about either the 1:12 bus that was delayed by a couple of minutes or the 1:22 for which she would have been at the bus stop 7 minutes early. It really does not matter which bus it was, because if Markham did indeed normally arrive at the bus stop at 1:15 she simply could not have been at 10th/Patton a minute earlier to witness Tippit's murder if that happened at 1:14 because she would have passed that location at least three minutes earlier.

So, if you wish to push back Markham's timeline to fit Tippit being murdered at 1.14 you also have to push back Bowley's timeline with the same amount of time thus making it inevitable that he would have been late at the school to pick up his daughter and somehow not notice it.

And then of course there is the report of DPD officer Davenport who followed the ambulance to Methodist Hospital on Beckley and said Tippit was declared DOA at 1:15. There is no way that Tippit could have been at the hospital at 1:15 if he was shot at 10th street only a minute earlier.

The only real variable in all this is the estimated time that Tippit was shot. If he was shot between 1:06 and 1:10 the entire timeline fits perfectly and makes sense, but if he was killed at 1:14 nothing else of the combined timelines fits.

The point I have been making is that the voice timestamps on the DPD recordings are not meaningless.

Nobody said those transcripts (because that's what we have) are meaningless. There is just simply no guarantee that the times called by the dispatcher were indeed accurate in the real world. Bowles himself said that the clocks used could be as much as two minutes behind or ahead of "offical time". In other words, if the dispatcher calls 1:16 it could very well have been 1:14 or 1:18 in the real world. Such a margin of error alone means that you can not use the transcripts to pin point the exact time of the shooting!

I never assumed that their timelines were accurate (as far as estimates go) but I concluded instead that their timelines are linked

Then, unlike the voice timestamp recordings, the rest of your rant is meaningless.

Nobody said those transcripts (because that's what we have) are meaningless.

The transcripts were made from tapes, not from the original dictabelt discs.  The fact that the transcripts say "tape splice" in several spots means that the tapes were edited in some fashion.

So what Bowles is saying here is that it's meaningless that the dispatcher said "1:16" shortly before the citizen reported the shooting of the police officer.

[Martin Weidmann]

I never assumed that their timelines were accurate (as far as estimates go) but I concluded instead that their timelines are linked

Then, unlike the voice timestamp recordings, the rest of your rant is meaningless.

Nobody said those transcripts (because that's what we have) are meaningless.

Then, unlike the voice timestamp recordings, the rest of your rant is meaningless.

So, you are unable to deal honestly with the information I provided.... It's duly noted.

What is actually meaningless is the opinion of a biased person who is unwilling to discuss facts placed before him because he knows he can not counter them!