The Limo Bullet Fragments....

[Walt Cakebread]

Lner's often cite the fragments that were recovered from the President's Lincoln as proof that the carcano was used to fire the bullet that fragmented in the Limo.  (in spite of the fact that the "experts" weren't even sure that the fragments were all from one bullet.)

In a telephone conversation with LBJ on 11/23/63 J.Edgar Hoover told LBJ..."We have what we call slivers, which are not very valuable in the identification."

[Joe Elliott]

Lner's often cite the fragments that were recovered from the President's Lincoln as proof that the carcano was used to fire the bullet that fragmented in the Limo.  (in spite of the fact that the "experts" weren't even sure that the fragments were all from one bullet.)

In a telephone conversation with LBJ on 11/23/63 J.Edgar Hoover told LBJ..."We have what we call slivers, which are not very valuable in the identification."

The theory that the two fragments came from the same bullet fits Occam?s razor. There are two points of damage in the limousine. The cracked windshield and the dented windshield frame.

We have two theories:

Theory 1: A bullet fragmented into three. One fragment struck the windshield and cracked it and bounced back into the limousine. This fragment was found in the limousine. A second fragment from the same bullet dented the windshield frame and bounced back into the limousine. This fragment was also found in the limousine. While both the found fragments only account for 60% of the mass of a bullet, a third fragment must have just cleared the windshield and sun visors and wounded Mr. Tague.

Theory 2: Two bullets fragmented. One fragmented into two. One fragment hit the windshield and another fragment just cleared the windshield. The second bullet fragmented into two. One struck the windshield and the second also just cleared the windshield. Resulting in only two of the four fragments being found in the limousine.



While one bullet might fragment, causing one or more fragments to just hit the limousine, and one or more fragments to just clear the limousine, this is unlikely to occur twice, which Theory 2 requires. Also, with any luck, if Theory 2 was true, we might expect the two recovered fragments to weigh more than one bullet, which would alert us that these fragments came from two different bullets. But, as luck would have it, this didn?t happen.

Also, we have reason to believe only one bullet would fragment. We only have one wound that would cause such a bullet to fragment, JFK?s head wound. Only this wound would cause a bullet to strike bone with enough velocity to fragment. The wound in Connnally?s chest and wrist, is too far down to go on to hit the windshield, without striking the seat in front of him and too much flesh must be passed through, slowing the bullet too much to fragment in any case.

Theory 1, which is the simpler and more likely theory, is the one we should adopt, unless decisive evidence came up for Theory 2.

[Matt Grantham]

  Are you including what was found in JFK's skull at Bethesda?

[Martin Weidmann]

The theory that the two fragments came from the same bullet fits Occam?s razor. There are two points of damage in the limousine. The cracked windshield and the dented windshield frame.

We have two theories:

Theory 1: A bullet fragmented into three. One fragment struck the windshield and cracked it and bounced back into the limousine. This fragment was found in the limousine. A second fragment from the same bullet dented the windshield frame and bounced back into the limousine. This fragment was also found in the limousine. While both the found fragments only account for 60% of the mass of a bullet, a third fragment must have just cleared the windshield and sun visors and wounded Mr. Tague.

Theory 2: Two bullets fragmented. One fragmented into two. One fragment hit the windshield and another fragment just cleared the windshield. The second bullet fragmented into two. One struck the windshield and the second also just cleared the windshield. Resulting in only two of the four fragments being found in the limousine.



While one bullet might fragment, causing one or more fragments to just hit the limousine, and one or more fragments to just clear the limousine, this is unlikely to occur twice, which Theory 2 requires. Also, with any luck, if Theory 2 was true, we might expect the two recovered fragments to weigh more than one bullet, which would alert us that these fragments came from two different bullets. But, as luck would have it, this didn?t happen.

Also, we have reason to believe only one bullet would fragment. We only have one wound that would cause such a bullet to fragment, JFK?s head wound. Only this wound would cause a bullet to strike bone with enough velocity to fragment. The wound in Connnally?s chest and wrist, is too far down to go on to hit the windshield, without striking the seat in front of him and too much flesh must be passed through, slowing the bullet too much to fragment in any case.

Theory 1, which is the simpler and more likely theory, is the one we should adopt, unless decisive evidence came up for Theory 2.

We have two theories:

Theories? Really?

And since when are theories evidence in any shape or form?

Here's a bombshell; we don't even know for sure which (if any) of the fragments were actually found in the limo.

With an FBI team on their way to examine the limo forensically some completely unauthorised and unqualified guys went through the limo and allegedly removed physical evidence from it. Later, when they gave them to the FBI, they claimed these were the actual fragments that had been taken from the car. Evidence tampering 101?

Once again, like on so many other occassions in this case; no photographs in situ, no first hand forensic expertise involved in handling the evidence and no chain of custody by any reasonable standard of the law....

So, all you have are theories..... please give me a break!

[Joe Elliott]

We have two theories:

Theories? Really?

And since when are theories evidence in any shape or form?

Here's a bombshell; we don't even know for sure which (if any) of the fragments were actually found in the limo.

With an FBI team on their way to examine the limo forensically some completely unauthorised and unqualified guys went through the limo and allegedly removed physical evidence from it. Later, when they gave them to the FBI, they claimed these were the actual fragments that had been taken from the car. Evidence tampering 101?

Once again, like on so many other occassions in this case; no photographs in situ, no first hand forensic expertise involved in handling the evidence and no chain of custody by any reasonable standard of the law....

These ?other guys? were Secret Service agents. Of course, you live in a conspiracy world, where everyone is suspect. Where this alleged conspiracy can recruit anyone they need to with no problem. The autopsy doctors. The Secret Service agents. The Dallas police. No problem at all, for believers in Large Secret Enduring Conspiracies.

So, all you have are theories..... please give me a break!

Reasonable people have theories. Unreasonable people have established truths in their heads that they cannot seriously question.

[Joe Elliott]

So you have NO supporting evidence. Got it.

No. You don?t got it. There is supporting evidence.

Ballistic experts Robert Frazier and Joseph Nicol examined the stretcher bullet and the two fragments recovered from the limousine and determined that they were fired from the rifle found on the sixth floor of the TSBD, to the exclusion of all other rifles in the world.

Supporting evidence that the two fragments were from the same bullet? This is impossible to tell. But applying Occam?s Razor, a proven tool, shows that this is most probable.

It was, of course, impossible to determine that the two fragments came from the same bullet or from two different bullets. But two different bullets each leaving a fragment that stays in the limousine, while the other fragment leaves the limousine, is patently unlikely for the following reasons.

We know for a fact that a part of the bullet, or a part of both bullets did not strike the limousine. This is a fluke, to happen to one bullet. It would be a super fluke to happen to two separate bullets.

If the fragments were from one bullet, it was just by luck the bullet curved upwards in JFK?s head. A curve in any other direction would have resulted in all three fragments striking the limousine, likely resulting in the recovery of all three fragments within the limousine.



For the fragments to be from two different bullets, the following fluky events must have occurred.

** Both WCC/MC bullets had to fragment, which doesn?t always occur. It would only occur if both struck bone at near muzzle velocity. Like a bullet hitting the skull.

** Both bullets would have to curve upwards, allowing one fragment to be intercepted by the limousine and later recovered, and the other fragment to clear the limousine.

** If the fragments came from two different bullets, in both cases, it was the smaller fragment that stayed behind while the larger fragment escaped. If the opposite happened, the weight of the found fragments would be more than the weight of a single bullet, alerting us to the fact that the fragments came from two different bullets. Or if just one of the larger fragments was found, this would likely tell us that the fragments came from two different bullets.

** Both fragments came from different parts of the bullet. If the fragments came from the same part of the bullet, then we would know that two different bullets caused the fragments.



In conclusion, while it is possible that the fragments came from two different bullets, logic indicates that this is unlikely. Most likely, they came from the same bullet.

[Martin Weidmann]

These ?other guys? were Secret Service agents. Of course, you live in a conspiracy world, where everyone is suspect. Where this alleged conspiracy can recruit anyone they need to with no problem. The autopsy doctors. The Secret Service agents. The Dallas police. No problem at all, for believers in Large Secret Enduring Conspiracies.



Reasonable people have theories. Unreasonable people have established truths in their heads that they cannot seriously question.

These ?other guys? were Secret Service agents.

Do they have special permission to tamper with evidence?

Of course, you live in a conspiracy world, where everyone is suspect.

This is not about me. In your simple little world it seems to be ok to tamper with evidence as long as they have some sort of badge. Pathetic!

Where this alleged conspiracy can recruit anyone they need to with no problem. The autopsy doctors. The Secret Service agents. The Dallas police. No problem at all, for believers in Large Secret Enduring Conspiracies.

Here we go again... the classic LN argument. A conspiracy isn't possible because they needed to involved half the population of the world, right? Get some grip on reality, please!

Reasonable people have theories. Unreasonable people have established truths in their heads that they cannot seriously question.



Another LN argument

Translation; reasonable people agree with the crap I write and unreasonable people don't

You will never understand just how stupid that argument sounds, will you now?

[Martin Weidmann]

No. You don?t got it. There is supporting evidence.

Ballistic experts Robert Frazier and Joseph Nicol examined the stretcher bullet and the two fragments recovered from the limousine and determined that they were fired from the rifle found on the sixth floor of the TSBD, to the exclusion of all other rifles in the world.

Supporting evidence that the two fragments were from the same bullet? This is impossible to tell. But applying Occam?s Razor, a proven tool, shows that this is most probable.

It was, of course, impossible to determine that the two fragments came from the same bullet or from two different bullets. But two different bullets each leaving a fragment that stays in the limousine, while the other fragment leaves the limousine, is patently unlikely for the following reasons.

We know for a fact that a part of the bullet, or a part of both bullets did not strike the limousine. This is a fluke, to happen to one bullet. It would be a super fluke to happen to two separate bullets.

If the fragments were from one bullet, it was just by luck the bullet curved upwards in JFK?s head. A curve in any other direction would have resulted in all three fragments striking the limousine, likely resulting in the recovery of all three fragments within the limousine.



For the fragments to be from two different bullets, the following fluky events must have occurred.

** Both WCC/MC bullets had to fragment, which doesn?t always occur. It would only occur if both struck bone at near muzzle velocity. Like a bullet hitting the skull.

** Both bullets would have to curve upwards, allowing one fragment to be intercepted by the limousine and later recovered, and the other fragment to clear the limousine.

** If the fragments came from two different bullets, in both cases, it was the smaller fragment that stayed behind while the larger fragment escaped. If the opposite happened, the weight of the found fragments would be more than the weight of a single bullet, alerting us to the fact that the fragments came from two different bullets. Or if just one of the larger fragments was found, this would likely tell us that the fragments came from two different bullets.

** Both fragments came from different parts of the bullet. If the fragments came from the same part of the bullet, then we would know that two different bullets caused the fragments.



In conclusion, while it is possible that the fragments came from two different bullets, logic indicates that this is unlikely. Most likely, they came from the same bullet.

Ballistic experts Robert Frazier and Joseph Nicol examined the stretcher bullet and the two fragments recovered from the limousine and determined that they were fired from the rifle found on the sixth floor of the TSBD, to the exclusion of all other rifles in the world.


Briliant, Einstein... now show conclusively that CE 399 and the fragments now in evidence are indeed the same as the bullet found at Parkland and the fragments found in the car..... can you do that?

Here's news for you; if you can't show that, everything else in your post falls apart and all you are left with is what you (want to) believe