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Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: Best motives
« Reply #24 on: August 03, 2018, 04:33:57 PM »
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Referring to Colonel Sheffield Edwards, CIA Director of the Office of Security,:

    "Edwards said there was nothing that he knew about the plan to assassinate
     Castro that he didn't tell Attorney General Kennedy and that the briefing
     lasted about half a hour, at least."

    "When asked whether or not the Attorney General had told Colonel Edwards
     that "you shouldn't do this at all," Colonel Edwards replied "No."

     -- Summary of Facts, 1975 ( Link )

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Re: Best motives
« Reply #24 on: August 03, 2018, 04:33:57 PM »


Offline Steve M. Galbraith

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Re: Best motives
« Reply #25 on: August 03, 2018, 04:49:41 PM »

For starters, Operations Mongoose and Bounty, and the Lansdale "die plan" memo of March 16, 1962.

According to the book "Brothers in Arms,": "The language of the memo speaks for itself. The only thing that Robert Kennedy can be referring to is the assassination of Castro."
There is probably no direct full-disclosure admission from the Kennedys or CIA that they planned to assassinate foreign leaders because they protected themselves with "plausible deniability".

Okay, but you said foreign leaders plural. Other than the plots against Castro - plots I think the Kennedys clearly knew about (if not in detail in general) - who did they plan to assassinate? Or have "interest" in assassinating?

I am not aware that Operation Mongoose had anything about assassinating Castro. My understanding is the assassination plots were under a separate program.

Offline Gary Craig

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Re: Best motives
« Reply #26 on: August 03, 2018, 07:17:49 PM »
Before 11/22/63   CUBA


11 days later   VIETNAM

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Re: Best motives
« Reply #26 on: August 03, 2018, 07:17:49 PM »


Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: Best motives
« Reply #27 on: August 03, 2018, 07:21:10 PM »
Okay, but you said foreign leaders plural.

Well, since we're splitting hairs, I said "the Kennedys appear to have been interested" which is not a claim that I knew for sure. Plausible deniability keeps us from knowing the full extent. The Castro assassination plots were confined to a select few within the White House Special Group (SG-A) and the CIA, along with liason Lansdale at Defense. RFK chaired the SG-A but I believe he was also briefed in his AG office.

Quote
Other than the plots against Castro - plots I think the Kennedys clearly knew about (if not in detail in general) - who did they plan to assassinate? Or have "interest" in assassinating?


There are some who suspect President Kennedy knew in advance of the assassinations of Rafael Trujillo and President Diem.

Quote
I am not aware that Operation Mongoose had anything about assassinating Castro. My understanding is the assassination plots were under a separate program.

The "Cuban Project" was also known as Operation Mongoose. It was run by Air Force Major General Edward Lansdale from the Defense Department, with assistance from William King Harvey at the CIA.

    "The Cuban Project played a significant role in the events leading up to the
     Cuban Missile Crisis of 1962. The Project's six-phase schedule was presented
     by Edward Lansdale on February 20, 1962; it was overseen by Attorney
     General Robert Kennedy. President Kennedy was briefed on the operation's
     guidelines on March 16, 1962. Lansdale outlined the coordinated program of
     political, psychological, military, sabotage, and intelligence operations as well
     as assassination attempts on key political leaders."
               -- Wikipedia

Offline Steve M. Galbraith

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Re: Best motives
« Reply #28 on: August 03, 2018, 08:44:46 PM »
Well, since we're splitting hairs, I said "the Kennedys appear to have been interested" which is not a claim that I knew for sure. Plausible deniability keeps us from knowing the full extent. The Castro assassination plots were confined to a select few within the White House Special Group (SG-A) and the CIA, along with liason Lansdale at Defense. RFK chaired the SG-A but I believe he was also briefed in his AG office.

There are some who suspect President Kennedy knew in advance of the assassinations of Rafael Trujillo and President Diem.

The "Cuban Project" was also known as Operation Mongoose. It was run by Air Force Major General Edward Lansdale from the Defense Department, with assistance from William King Harvey at the CIA.

    "The Cuban Project played a significant role in the events leading up to the
     Cuban Missile Crisis of 1962. The Project's six-phase schedule was presented
     by Edward Lansdale on February 20, 1962; it was overseen by Attorney
     General Robert Kennedy. President Kennedy was briefed on the operation's
     guidelines on March 16, 1962. Lansdale outlined the coordinated program of
     political, psychological, military, sabotage, and intelligence operations as well
     as assassination attempts on key political leaders."
               -- Wikipedia

You were seemingly implying - I can't read your mind - that the Kennedys were interested in killing numerous foreign leaders. As in multiple figures. In fact, the evidence I've seen is that they were "interested" in just one: Castro. And more than just "interested". I think they were quite aware of the plots and implicitly if not explicitly approved of them.

As to Diem and Trujillo: Again, where's the evidence? Didn't Lodge offer Diem and his brother protection in the US Embassy? And they rejected it? I don't think there's any evidence that JFK approved of or signed of on their murder. Same with Trujillo. No US government involvement.

As to the Wikipedia quote: there's no source for the claim that Mongoose also involved the assassination plots against Castro. Again, my understanding is that those plots were organized and run under a more secret program or programs. Mongoose was pretty well documented - there's a long paper trail - and I find it hard to believe that the Castro plots would have been part of it.




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Re: Best motives
« Reply #28 on: August 03, 2018, 08:44:46 PM »


Offline Robert Reeves

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Re: Best motives
« Reply #29 on: August 03, 2018, 09:39:28 PM »
from The Forty Committee, By L. Fletcher Prouty

Quote
"By God, Prouty, those bastards are going to let them murder Trujillo. They go around telling everyone this spombleprofglidnoctobuns about anticommunism; invading Cuba with a half-assed task force and then when they have one tough son-of-a-As I was walking a' alane, I heard twa corbies makin' a mane. The tane untae the tither did say, Whaur sail we gang and dine the day, O. Whaur sail we gang and dine the day?  It's in ahint yon auld fail dyke I wot there lies a new slain knight; And naebody kens that he lies there But his hawk and his hound, and his lady fair, O. But his hawk and his hound, and his lady fair.  His hound is to the hunting gane His hawk to fetch the wild-fowl hame, His lady ta'en anither mate, So we may mak' our dinner swate, O. So we may mak' our dinner swate.  Ye'll sit on his white hause-bane, And I'll pike oot his bonny blue e'en Wi' ae lock o' his gowden hair We'll theek oor nest when it grows bare, O. We'll theek oor nest when it grows bare.  There's mony a ane for him maks mane But nane sail ken whaur he is gane O'er his white banes when they are bare The wind sail blaw for evermair, O. The wind sail blaw for evermair.' right there in the heart of the Caribbean, what do they do? They take away his support. He'll be dead in less than forty-eight hours."
        General Darcy was spitting mad. He was one of the toughest guys who ever strapped himself into a P-51 fighter. He was a real professional. He believed in fighting the Cold War as hard as he had fought the total war against Hitler. Now, in May 1961, less than one month after the Bay of Pigs, he had just come back from a meeting of the Forty Committee (then called the Special Group 5412/2). They were playing God again and Rafael Trujillo, the dictatorial president of the Dominican Republic, was the next target for termination.
        "Prouty, before you go back to your shop, go down to personnel. Find out what it takes to retire. This is not my game. I'm getting out." Before Darcy's papers could be processed, Trujillo was dead, murdered in the city that carried his name, by men of his own army.
        Tom Darcy had made it clear many times that he had no love for Trujillo nor for what he stood; but despite that he knew Trujillo would never condone communism, and anyway, "it is not our business to mess around in their internal affairs."  Assassinations are not made by the Forty Committee; they are permitted.

I believe Prouty went on the record and admitted during his role of Chief of Clandestine Operations he participated logistically in Trujillo's assassination/overthrow. I think it was during one of the Stone JFK movie debates he alluded to Trujillo's death as being the result of a CIA backed operation. If I can find it I'll post the clip.


Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: Best motives
« Reply #30 on: August 03, 2018, 09:48:24 PM »
You were seemingly implying - I can't read your mind - that the Kennedys were interested in killing numerous foreign leaders. As in multiple figures. In fact, the evidence I've seen is that they were "interested" in just one: Castro. And more than just "interested". I think they were quite aware of the plots and implicitly if not explicitly approved of them.

As to Diem and Trujillo: Again, where's the evidence? Didn't Lodge offer Diem and his brother protection in the US Embassy? And they rejected it? I don't think there's any evidence that JFK approved of or signed of on their murder. Same with Trujillo. No US government involvement.

    "The United States did not want Diệm and Nhu to form a government in exile and
     wanted them far away from Vietnam. Assistant Secretary of State Roger Hilsman
     had written in August that "under no circumstances should the Nhus be permitted
     to remain in Southeast Asia in close proximity to Vietnam because of the plots
     they will mount to try to regain power. If the generals decide to exile Diệm, he
     should also be sent outside Southeast Asia." He further went on to anticipate
     what he termed a "G?tterd?mmerung in the palace".

          We should encourage the coup group to fight the battle to the end and destroy
          the palace if necessary to gain victory. Unconditional surrender should be the
          terms for the Ng? family since it will otherwise seek to outmaneuver both the 
          coups forces and the US. If the family is taken alive, the Nhus should be 
          banished to France or any other country willing to receive them. Diệm should
          be treated as the generals wish.

     After surrendering, Diệm called Lodge by telephone for the last time. Lodge did not
     report the conversation to Washington, so it was widely assumed that the pair last
     spoke on the previous afternoon when the coup was just starting. However, after
     Lodge died in 1985, his aide, Colonel Mike Dunn said that Lodge and Diệm spoke for
     the last time around 07:00 on 2 November moments after Diệm surrendered. When
     Diệm called, Lodge "put [him] on hold" and then walked away. Upon his return, the
     ambassador offered Diệm and Nhu asylum, but would not arrange for transportation
     to the Philippines until the next day. This contradicted his earlier offer of asylum the
     previous day when he implored Diệm to not resist the coup. Dunn offered to personally
     go to the brothers' hideout to escort him so that the generals could not kill him, but
     Lodge refused, saying, "We just can't get that involved." Dunn said, "I was really
     astonished that we didn't do more for them." Having refused to help the brothers to
     leave the country safely, Lodge later said after they had been shot, "What would we
     have done with them if they had lived? Every Colonel Blimp in the world would have
     made use of them."
               -- Wikipedia

The Church Committee found that US officials wanted Trujillo overthrown and that some US officials knew of dissidents' requests for sniper rifles and other weapons, and that a handful of weapons were eventually given them. ( Link )

Quote

As to the Wikipedia quote: there's no source for the claim that Mongoose also involved the assassination plots against Castro. Again, my understanding is that those plots were organized and run under a more secret program or programs. Mongoose was pretty well documented - there's a long paper trail - and I find it hard to believe that the Castro plots would have been part of it.

Harvey was associated with Mongoose. Accoding to some interpretations, Lansdale and Edwards told RFK all about the assassination plots. Possibly Lansdale briefed SG-A about it. Don't expect a "smoking gun" as to how much the Kennedys knew or instigated. The Church Committeee devoted a whole section to "Plausible Denial". ( Link )

There's no absolute caught-on-film or confession evidence that Oswald shot the President, either.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2018, 09:54:36 PM by Jerry Organ »

Offline Barry Pollard

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Re: Best motives
« Reply #31 on: August 04, 2018, 01:21:53 AM »
How many average Cuban Joe's were killed, or don't they count?
A rumoured 400 in one day(NOV8 1962), not enough?
Want to estimate how many were killed because we blocked food and medicine? Go right ahead.

The importance of PD mentioned in the very first sentence.
https://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1958-60v06/d481

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Re: Best motives
« Reply #31 on: August 04, 2018, 01:21:53 AM »