What happened to the Mauser?

[Royell Storing]

That's IF you believe Alyea was actually filming the Initial Retrieval of the Carcano and was not duped into filming a Staged Retrieval of the Carcano.

The Carcano was discovered at 1:22 PM....Day was photographed leaving the TSBD with the Carcano at about 2:10  PM and he was at police headquarters with the rifle before 3:00 PM... 

When would a "staged Retrieval" have taken place??   

 The Alyea film Not showing an empty Carcano Clip extending from the bottom of the rifle, (as was later captured on Images of the Carcano as it was being carried from the TSBD by Lt Day), makes one believe the Carcano had been handled by law enforcement Prior to the Alyea footage.

But Alyea's footage DOES in fact show the clip in the magazine...  It's not hanging out of the magazine as it is seen in the photos of Day carrying the Carcano out of the TSBD, but it was in the magazine at the time that Alyea filmed  Detective Day dusting the rifle for prints behind the brightly lit west window of the TSBD...

That clip was not jammed or stuck or hung up in the magazine... I was freely sliding around in the mag as the rifle was handled...and by the time Day left the TSBD with the rifle it had worked it's way out to the point it was nearly ready to drop free of magazine.

    I have seen NO Alyea footage "showing" the Clip as you claim. If as You claim the Clip is: (1) "IN the magazine", and (2) "NOT Hanging Out of the magazine", how would it be visible in the Alyea footage?
   
   

[Walt Cakebread]

    I have seen NO Alyea footage "showing" the Clip as you claim. If as You claim the Clip is: (1) "IN the magazine", and (2) "NOT Hanging Out of the magazine", how would it be visible in the Alyea footage?
   
 

A couple of years ago a poster in this forum posted a clip ( a single frame) of Alyea's film that showed Day working over the rifle behind the brightly lit west window and Day had the aperture of the magazine turned toward Alyea's camera...  Thelight colored brass clip was visible in the magazine.

Naturally that destroys many pet theories that rest on the clip being absent....and many cases of Cranium Rectalitis immediately surfaced and the suffering victims couldn't see the clip.

[Royell Storing]

A couple of years ago a poster in this forum posted a clip ( a single frame) of Alyea's film that showed Day working over the rifle behind the brightly lit west window and Day had the aperture of the magazine turned toward Alyea's camera...  Thelight colored brass clip was visible in the magazine.

Naturally that destroys many pet theories that rest on the clip being absent....and many cases of Cranium Rectalitis immediately surfaced and the suffering victims couldn't see the clip.

         That Image was Inconclusive. I remember it being debated as to whether we were actually seeing something BEHIND the rifle. The clarity of the Alyea Film has always been an issue. Your claiming what you Want to see as being a fact only damages your other Opinions regarding the assassination of JFK. It also misleads JFK Assassination Newbes. 

[Walt Cakebread]

         That Image was Inconclusive. I remember it being debated as to whether we were actually seeing something BEHIND the rifle. The clarity of the Alyea Film has always been an issue. Your claiming what you Want to see as being a fact only damages your other Opinions regarding the assassination of JFK. It also misleads JFK Assassination Newbes.

That Image was Inconclusive.

Do you have the image?...  I reproduced the image using A carcano and a brass clip.... I'm 100% certain that there was a clip in the magazine as Detective Day examined it...But he was such a clutz that he had no idea what he was doing...(Or perhaps the pressure in the aftermath of the murder that he was involved in cause brain paralysis ) And YES He was one of the conspirators...in the cover up.

The clarity of the Alyea Film has always been an issue.

I agree...And WHY do suppose that is??  Tom Alyea was a professional reporter and photographer...Why do the clips of his fillm look like the work of an amateur ??   Wanna offer a speculation?   Why are the really important parts cropped??  WHO screened his stuff before it was released...Wasn't it Hoover's gang?

PS  Do you remember the name of the man who posted the Alyea frame?

[Walt Cakebread]

    The Alyea footage Clearly shows NO CLIP extending/hanging out of the underside of the rifle. Lt Day and Fritz spun that rifle around as it was dusted for prints. They even jerked around on it as they ejected a live round from the chamber. Still NO CLIP visible. Yet, when Lt. Day parades out of the TSBD "POOF". We Suddenly have images showing a CLIP dangling from the underside of the Carcano. Definitely David Copperfield worthy work being employed that day.

Royell, There definitely was a brass ammo clip in the magazine of the Carcano at the time Detective Day was examining the rifle for finger prints behind the sunlit window of the TSBD.  I'm 100% certain that this is a fact.....

It is also true that that clip should NOT ( and COULD NOT) have been there in that rifle if it had been fired and stripped of the cartridges in it, less than an hour earlier. (  The action of operating the bolt would have stripped the last cartridge from the clip and the clip would have fallen free out of the aperture in the bottom of the magazine of the rifle. )

The fact that there was a clip in the rifle is solid proof that the rifle was a "throw down" gun that was intended to be linked to the patsy Lee Oswald.

I know that these facts clash with your beliefs but they are true facts....

[Walt Cakebread]

    I have seen NO Alyea footage "showing" the Clip as you claim. If as You claim the Clip is: (1) "IN the magazine", and (2) "NOT Hanging Out of the magazine", how would it be visible in the Alyea footage?
   
 

If as You claim the Clip is: (1) "IN the magazine", and (2) "NOT Hanging Out of the magazine", how would it be visible in the Alyea footage?


Good Question, and thank you for asking...This is one of those cases in which one picture ( frame from Alyea's film)  would be better than a thousand words.

You seem to understand that the rifle is designed to allow the ammo clip to simple drop out of the bottom of the rifle when the last live cartridge is stripped from the clip by the forward motion of the bolt.  When the last cartridge in the clip is stripped from it there is nothing to retain the clip in the magazine ( the cartridges act as an integral part of the machine) and the clip simple falls out of the rifle's magazine.

If that opening at the bottom of the magazine is not in the down toward the floor position, naturally the clip can't fall from the aperture.

However a empty clip can easily be inserted into the aperture, and if the rifle is upside down or in it's side , or any position other than the normal firing position, gravity can't work on it and pull it from the aperture.    When Detective Day picked up the rifle and examined it he never held it in the normal firing position with the aperture in the magazine down toward the floor.  Thus the clip simple stayed in the rifle.   However it was sliding around a bit as the rifle was examined ....and as Detective Day examined the rifle he turned  the aperture toward Tom Alyea's camera and the camera recorded the clip just emerging from the aperture..  ( about 1/8 of in inch of the clip was protruding out of the aperture)

Long ago I was in the same boat that you're in now...  I did not believe that there was a clip in the rifle when it was discovered....And I thought that this was an indication that the rifle had not been fired and used as the assassination weapon....

The fact is:.... That basic hypothesis is correct...That Carcano was NOT the murder weapon...and the clip was placed in the rifle with one live cartridge in it and then the bolt was shoved forward... but the bolt was NOT pushed down and latched....( Alyea's film confirms that the bolt is not latched down.)  After that live round was stripped from the clip the rifle was placed on the floor ON IT'S RIGHT SIDE and the clip remained inside the magazine.  But it was NOT NOT  stuck or jammed...  It simply was not given the opportunity to fall out of the rifle.  However as Day handled the rifle and carried it he must have placed the aperture down at some pont and the clip slid further out of the magazine as can be seen in the photos that were snapped as he carried the carcano from the TSBD.
 

[Royell Storing]

If as You claim the Clip is: (1) "IN the magazine", and (2) "NOT Hanging Out of the magazine", how would it be visible in the Alyea footage?


Good Question, and thank you for asking...This is one of those cases in which one picture ( frame from Alyea's film)  would be better than a thousand words.

You seem to understand that the rifle is designed to allow the ammo clip to simple drop out of the bottom of the rifle when the last live cartridge is stripped from the clip by the forward motion of the bolt.  When the last cartridge in the clip is stripped from it there is nothing to retain the clip in the magazine ( the cartridges act as an integral part of the machine) and the clip simple falls out of the rifle's magazine.

If that opening at the bottom of the magazine is not in the down toward the floor position, naturally the clip can't fall from the aperture.

However a empty clip can easily be inserted into the aperture, and if the rifle is upside down or in it's side , or any position other than the normal firing position, gravity can't work on it and pull it from the aperture.    When Detective Day picked up the rifle and examined it he never held it in the normal firing position with the aperture in the magazine down toward the floor.  Thus the clip simple stayed in the rifle.   However it was sliding around a bit as the rifle was examined ....and as Detective Day examined the rifle he turned  the aperture toward Tom Alyea's camera and the camera recorded the clip just emerging from the aperture..  ( about 1/8 of in inch of the clip was protruding out of the aperture)

Long ago I was in the same boat that you're in now...  I did not believe that there was a clip in the rifle when it was discovered....And I thought that this was an indication that the rifle had not been fired and used as the assassination weapon....

The fact is:.... That basic hypothesis is correct...That Carcano was NOT the murder weapon...and the clip was placed in the rifle with one live cartridge in it and then the bolt was shoved forward... but the bolt was NOT pushed down and latched....( Alyea's film confirms that the bolt is not latched down.)  After that live round was stripped from the clip the rifle was placed on the floor ON IT'S RIGHT SIDE and the clip remained inside the magazine.  But it was NOT NOT  stuck or jammed...  It simply was not given the opportunity to fall out of the rifle.  However as Day handled the rifle and carried it he must have placed the aperture down at some pont and the clip slid further out of the magazine as can be seen in the photos that were snapped as he carried the carcano from the TSBD.
 

    Mytton has previously posted a video of people firing a Carcano rifle while holding the rifle in an upright position with the rifle magazine pointed directly toward the ground. On occasion, the Empty Clip did Not fall completely out of the gun magazine and the Clip did dangle/hang part way out of and into the rifle magazine.  Mytton showed Proof this problem with the Carcano Clip does on rare occasions occur.
     The Alyea footage shows Fritz ejecting a live round from the Carcano. When Fritz worked the Carcano Bolt and Ejected the live round, the rifle was in an upright position with the Magazine pointed toward the ground. Gravity should have pulled the empty Clip out of the magazine or at the very least showed it hanging up as it was falling through the magazine toward the ground. There is Nothing hanging from the magazine before, during, and after Fritz ejected the live round.
     My thought regarding the Disappearing/Appearing Clip is that it was discovered After the rifle was recovered and filmed/photographed between the boxes on the 6th Floor. The problem was that the Clip was recovered on the floor inside the TSBD in an area which did Not fit the 6th Floor Sniper's Nest & the alleged Oswald escape route down to the 2nd floor Lunch Room. Upon finding the Clip, Fritz/Lt Day had no choice but to place the empty clip back inside the Carcano rifle. This is why the Clip is visible hanging from the magazine as Lt. Day walks the streets of Dallas with the rifle dangling by its strap.
      I find it hard to believe that absolutely no one connected to law enforcement that was inside the TSBD when the Carcano was discovered smelled the gun barrel of the rifle when it was discovered or while it was being examined/printed. Being this was an Active Crime Scene, knowing whether that rifle had recently been fired should have been of paramount importance to the Investigators at risk inside the building. 

[Walt Cakebread]

    Mytton has previously posted a video of people firing a Carcano rifle while holding the rifle in an upright position with the rifle magazine pointed directly toward the ground. On occasion, the Empty Clip did Not fall completely out of the gun magazine and the Clip did dangle/hang part way out of and into the rifle magazine.  Mytton showed Proof this problem with the Carcano Clip does on rare occasions occur.
     The Alyea footage shows Fritz ejecting a live round from the Carcano. When Fritz worked the Carcano Bolt and Ejected the live round, the rifle was in an upright position with the Magazine pointed toward the ground. Gravity should have pulled the empty Clip out of the magazine or at the very least showed it hanging up as it was falling through the magazine toward the ground. There is Nothing hanging from the magazine before, during, and after Fritz ejected the live round.
     My thought regarding the Disappearing/Appearing Clip is that it was discovered After the rifle was recovered and filmed/photographed between the boxes on the 6th Floor. The problem was that the Clip was recovered on the floor inside the TSBD in an area which did Not fit the 6th Floor Sniper's Nest & the alleged Oswald escape route down to the 2nd floor Lunch Room. Upon finding the Clip, Fritz/Lt Day had no choice but to place the empty clip back inside the Carcano rifle. This is why the Clip is visible hanging from the magazine as Lt. Day walks the streets of Dallas with the rifle dangling by its strap.
      I find it hard to believe that absolutely no one connected to law enforcement that was inside the TSBD when the Carcano was discovered smelled the gun barrel of the rifle when it was discovered or while it was being examined/printed. Being this was an Active Crime Scene, knowing whether that rifle had recently been fired should have been of paramount importance to the Investigators at risk inside the building.

 Mytton has previously posted a video of people firing a Carcano rifle while holding the rifle in an upright position with the rifle magazine pointed directly toward the ground. On occasion, the Empty Clip did Not fall completely out of the gun magazine and the Clip did dangle/hang part way out of and into the rifle magazine.  Mytton showed Proof this problem with the Carcano Clip does on rare occasions occur.

Mytton!!??....  I'm surprised at you....Mytton is the biggest flim flam man in the forum....  However, he does occasionally shoot himself in the foot when playing quick draw MacGraw.....

The brass clips work perfectly and they do not fail to drop out of the rifle....However, the steel clips do sometimes fail to drop free from a less than clean rifle....

The Alyea footage shows Fritz ejecting a live round from the Carcano. When Fritz worked the Carcano Bolt and Ejected the live round, the rifle was in an upright position with the Magazine pointed toward the ground. Gravity should have pulled the empty Clip out of the magazine or at the very least showed it hanging up as it was falling through the magazine toward the ground. There is Nothing hanging from the magazine before, during, and after Fritz ejected the live round.

the rifle was in an upright position with the Magazine pointed toward the ground

No... The rifle is on it's side and tilted with the barrel up, as Fritz operated the bolt....   

 My thought regarding the Disappearing/Appearing Clip is that it was discovered After the rifle was recovered and filmed/photographed between the boxes on the 6th Floor. The problem was that the Clip was recovered on the floor inside the TSBD in an area which did Not fit the 6th Floor Sniper's Nest & the alleged Oswald escape route down to the 2nd floor Lunch Room. Upon finding the Clip, Fritz/Lt Day had no choice but to place the empty clip back inside the Carcano rifle. This is why the Clip is visible hanging from the magazine as Lt. Day walks the streets of Dallas with the rifle dangling by its strap.
      I find it hard to believe that absolutely no one connected to law enforcement that was inside the TSBD when the Carcano was discovered smelled the gun barrel of the rifle when it was discovered or while it was being examined/printed. Being this was an Active Crime Scene, knowing whether that rifle had recently been fired should have been of paramount importance to the Investigators at risk inside the building.

Upon finding the Clip, Fritz/Lt Day had no choice but to place the empty clip back inside the Carcano rifle.

Day was so ignorant and inept that he thought the Carcano was a "LEVER ACTION" rifle....He wouldn't have known where to put the clip ...... And They would not have needed to be devious or deceptive....Day could simply have explained that Officer X had found the clip on the floor next to the spent shells and or near the SE corner window and had picked it up before he realized that it was a rifle ammo clip and valuable evidence....When it became apparent that the clip was evidence the officer gave the clip to Lt Day and explained how he had come into possession of it.

I find it hard to believe that absolutely no one connected to law enforcement that was inside the TSBD when the Carcano was discovered smelled the gun barrel of the rifle when it was discovered or while it was being examined/printed.


"Law Enforcement" in this case were conspirators.... (At least the KEY law enforcement officers were involved)

Fritz was not stupid....If he or Day had sniffed the rifle they would have called attention to the FACT that the rifle did not reek of burned gunpowder....   And that would have alerted other observers like Tom Alyea to the fact that the rifle had not been fired less than an hour prior to it's discovery.....And they sure as hell didn't want that fact exposed....