JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: Thomas Graves on December 30, 2019, 05:12:43 PM
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Seeing as how Roy Truly, probably not having a list of everyone working in the TSBD, was only concerned with his own twelve or-so employees, was he unjustified in reporting Oswald missing, but not Charles Givens?
Would you have reported Oswald missing if you were him?
Just wondering -- Since Truly knew Oswald had recently been a marine (and that every marine is a good shot with a rifle), did that factor into the calculus of his decision?
Also, did he think his Black laborers were too "liberal" to shoot Kennedy?
-- MWT ;)
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He did the right thing.
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DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
Dex,
I tend to think Buell Wesley Frazier's memory was, indeed, "incorrect"
about a few of the things he discussed with Gary Mack in that 2002
interview -- particularly Buell's recollection of having seen Lee Oswald
walking down Houston Street five to ten minutes after the assassination
had taken place. That observation is totally at odds with what Frazier
said in his 11/22/63 affidavit.
So, yes, I think it's a good idea to take some of Buell's 39-year-old
remembrances with a grain of salt. But, with that caveat in mind, he still
did say there definitely was a "roll call" of the TSBD warehouse workers.
Whether Frazier was relying on something that was said by someone else
regarding there being an official "roll call", or whether he (in June of
2002) had a firm independent recollection of his own of there being a roll
call of the employees, is something I guess we could debate until the cows
come home.
We'll probably never really know for sure, because a 39-year-old memory
can result in some hazy and strange recollections -- like seeing Oswald
out on the street at 12:35 or 12:40 on November 22nd, even though Frazier
specifically said this in his first-day affidavit: "I did not see Lee
anymore after about 11:00 AM today."
But you'll have to admit that this quote below is rather interesting,
don't you think? ....
"They read names off and you had to answer." -- Buell Frazier; 6/21/02
Those words should make at least a few conspiracy theorists stop and
wonder: Well, gee, I wonder if there perhaps was a roll call after all.
I know I'm wondering.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/alt.assassination.jfk/blTI3m15Uns/4KZYt5TpCgAJ
What employees said that there was this roll call and what employees said there wasn't?
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Seeing as how Roy Truly, probably not having a list of everyone working in the TSBD, was only concerned with his own twelve or-so employees (and probably especially with the male laborers), was he unjustified in reporting Oswald missing, but not Charles Givens?
Would you have reported Oswald missing if you were him?
Just wondering -- Since Truly knew Oswald had recently been a marine (and that every marine is a good shot with a rifle), did that factor into the calculus of his decision?
Also, did he think his Black laborers were too "liberal" to shoot Kennedy?
-- MWT ;)
Would you have reported Oswald missing if you were him?
Good Question..... I believe that most intelligent folks with an iota of commonsense would probably NOT have reported Lee Oswald missing.....
The reasons being... A) There was no reason to believe that Lee was a ruthless violent killer.... He had never caused any friction or dissent among his fellow workers. He was a model employee, and frequently responded to fellow workers and supervisors with a "Yes, Sir" or "No, Sir" answer. But the major reason I wouldn't have reported his absence if I was Roy Truly, was because I had just seen him, and talked to him just SECONDS after the shooting and he was not at all afraid or suspicious acting....he was completely normal.
The fact that Truly went out of his way to alert the police to Lee's absence is far more suspicious of Truly's participation in the murder than Lee's role.
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Seeing as how Roy Truly, probably not having a list of everyone working in the TSBD, was only concerned with his own twelve or-so employees (and probably especially with the male laborers), was he unjustified in reporting Oswald missing, but not Charles Givens?
Would you have reported Oswald missing if you were him?
Just wondering -- Since Truly knew Oswald had recently been a marine (and that every marine is a good shot with a rifle), did that factor into the calculus of his decision?
Also, did he think his Black laborers were too "liberal" to shoot Kennedy?
-- MWT ;)
Roll call or no roll call, I think Oswald came to mind because Truly knew through the lunch room encounter that Oswald wasn't on the street like many of his co-workers and that he had been in building. He then disappeared. Not many others fell into those categories. That would have been enough reason to report even if Truly had no specific reason to believe Oswald had anything to do with the crime. Oswald is the guy they encounter when they enter the building. A cop pulls a gun on him. And then he is no longer there. A bit odd. Truly reports it likely believing it will amount to nothing.
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Baker had the right instinct initially. Truly reacted normally, both in letting his employee off the hook and later noting that the little prick had since disappeared (a real forehead-slapper for Truly right there).
Oswald undoubtedly kicked up his heels (so-to-speak) at this unexpected stroke-of-luck... he wasn't going to get mowed down after all. Whew. However, he really had no choice but to high-tail it. Might as well rub their noses in it.
Run, Lee... RUN!
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Roll call or no roll call, I think Oswald came to mind because Truly knew through the lunch room encounter that Oswald wasn't on the street like many of his co-workers and that he had been in building. He then disappeared. Not many others fell into those categories. That would have been enough reason to report even if Truly had no specific reason to believe Oswald had anything to do with the crime. Oswald is the guy they encounter when they enter the building. A cop pulls a gun on him. And then he is no longer there. A bit odd. Truly reports it likely believing it will amount to nothing.
I think Oswald came to mind because Truly knew through the lunch room encounter that Oswald wasn't on the street like many of his co-workers and that he had been in building.
You're completely omitting the fact that Truly knew that the lunchroom encounter had occurred just seconds AFTER the shooting, and Lee exhibited no sign of any abnormal behavior. When Truly saw Lee was was holding a coke in his hand and was a bit startled at the sudden appearance of a motorcycle cop with his revolver in his hand. So even if Lee was in the building he was far removed from the SE corner of the sixth floor..... Using your reasoning Truly should have reported Jack Dougherty, who was in the building and on the 5th floor and much closer to the alleged "sniper's nest" than Lee Oswald..... Or Eddie Piper who was also in the building at the time.
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Would you have reported Oswald missing if you were him?
Good Question..... I believe that most intelligent folks with an iota of commonsense would probably NOT have reported Lee Oswald missing.....
The reasons being... A) There was no reason to believe that Lee was a ruthless violent killer.... He had never caused any friction or dissent among his fellow workers. He was a model employee, and frequently responded to fellow workers and supervisors with a "Yes, Sir" or "No, Sir" answer. But the major reason I wouldn't have reported his absence if I was Roy Truly, was because I had just seen him, and talked to him just SECONDS after the shooting and he was not at all afraid or suspicious acting....he was completely normal.
The fact that Truly went out of his way to alert the police to Lee's absence is far more suspicious of Truly's participation in the murder than Lee's role.
Walter,
Not all premeditated murders are committed by people who come across as sociopaths beforehand.
Regardless of Oswald's tendency to say "Yes Sir" / "No Sir", etc, didn't several people at the TSBD describe him as being a bit of an odd duck -- always keeping to his superior Cassius-like self?
Maybe the juxtaposition of former-marine Oswald's "appearing normal" 90 seconds after the assassination with his suddenly disappearing after that (while all the other "Texas Redneck" white laborers had stayed behind) was what made an impression on Truly and seemed to warrant his notifying Fritz about it.
-- MWT ;)
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There was no roll call that 'discovered' Oswald's absence. Not according to Truly himself and also Bill Shelly..
As I have stated many times...everything has already been presented before-over and over----Who missed Lee the most?
Shelly stated that he was the one who noticed Oswald was missing and then told Truly...but Truly said HE had not seen Oswald and asked Shelly about it >:( YEAH RIGHT
From Oct 22-----Note the dates of the affidavits....No mention of any 'roll call' ...no mention because a roll call was actually a police invention. ;)
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2253.msg66250.html#msg66250
(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339642/m1/1/med_res/)
(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth340660/m1/1/med_res/)
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You mean Carolyn Arnold, the witness who originally said she saw Oswald ("she felt it was") on the first-floor though the front doors from the street?
Then fifteen years later, she tells the "Dallas Morning News" that she saw Oswald in the second-floor lunchroom about 12:25. ("I do not recall that he was doing anything ... He was alone as usual and appeared to be having lunch"). The same month she puts the time at "about 12:15. It may have been slightly later" to writer Anthony Summers.
Those who were with Arnold place their leaving at about 12:15. Oswald himself said he ate lunch on the first-floor, not the second-floor lunchroom where office workers usually ate.
Jerry,
Did Carolyn Arnold say she saw Oswald "from the street," or from the steps?
Regardless, did James "Jumbo Duh" DiEugenio at the so-called Education Forum pay her to say that?
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Or, for that matter, that she saw him sitting in the second floor lunch room at 12:25?
-- MWT ;)
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Roy Truly might have just thought about the people under him who worked there at the TSBD because there were a few other people who were not accounted for at that specific time of the day . There was more than one company that had space in the TSBD . Scott Foresman and Allyn Bacon were two companies who distributed school books out of the TSBD . In that time of chaos , I don't believe everyone could have been accounted for . Not all Marines were good shots and that is why the 3 levels , Expert , Sharpshooter and Marksman distinguished the difference in your ability with a rifle . If you were an expert rifleman or a Sharpshooter , you were probably going to be an 0311 grunt during whatever war those idiots in Washington DC had us involved in . I was in the Marines 69-71 and when you got your assignment at the end of Boot Camp and you were good with the rifle then you were probably going to Viet Nam as a grunt . I can still remember our DI calling out names ! He might say Heckett who was an expert with the M14 , Heckett would say Yes Sir and the DI would just say ' You're going ' which was short for you're a grunt and you're whole world was about to change . Then after ITR at Camp Pendleton you got your orders which became real because you were going into the spombleprofglidnoctobuns or you might go to a number of places . I got orders for Iwakuni , Japan and one of my good buddies from Boot Camp was going to Nam . Everything became REAL that day !
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Between them, Shelley and Truly notice Oswald is missing. Police are informed. End of. That's it. Why even bother to make a thread out of it...oh..so more suspicious nonsense can be peddled..
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Roy Truly might have just thought about the people under him who worked there at the TSBD because there were a few other people who were not accounted for at that specific time of the day . There was more than one company that had space in the TSBD . Scott Foresman and Allyn Bacon were two companies who distributed school books out of the TSBD . In that time of chaos , I don't believe everyone could have been accounted for . Not all Marines were good shots and that is why the 3 levels , Expert , Sharpshooter and Marksman distinguished the difference in your ability with a rifle . If you were an expert rifleman or a Sharpshooter , you were probably going to be an 0311 grunt during whatever war those idiots in Washington DC had us involved in . I was in the Marines 69-71 and when you got your assignment at the end of Boot Camp and you were good with the rifle then you were probably going to Viet Nam as a grunt . I can still remember our DI calling out names ! He might say Heckett who was an expert with the M14 , Heckett would say Yes Sir and the DI would just say ' You're going ' which was short for you're a grunt and your whole world was about to change . Then after ITR at Camp Pendleton you got your orders which became real because you were going into the spombleprofglidnoctobuns or you might go to a number of places . I got orders for Iwakuni , Japan and one of my good buddies from Boot Camp was going to Nam . Everything became REAL that day !
Mike,
"Marksman" in the Marines is pretty good by civilian standards.
Regardless, Truly knew that Oswald had been in the Marines. How did he know Oswald hadn't been a super-duper "Expert"-rated killing machine? I think he would have had to assume that, just to be safe.
-- MWT ;)
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Roy Truly might have just thought about the people under him who worked there at the TSBD because there were a few other people who were not accounted for at that specific time of the day . There was more than one company that had space in the TSBD . Scott Foresman and Allyn Bacon were two companies who distributed school books out of the TSBD . In that time of chaos , I don't believe everyone could have been accounted for . Not all Marines were good shots and that is why the 3 levels , Expert , Sharpshooter and Marksman distinguished the difference in your ability with a rifle . If you were an expert rifleman or a Sharpshooter , you were probably going to be an 0311 grunt during whatever war those idiots in Washington DC had us involved in . I was in the Marines 69-71 and when you got your assignment at the end of Boot Camp and you were good with the rifle then you were probably going to Viet Nam as a grunt . I can still remember our DI calling out names ! He might say Heckett who was an expert with the M14 , Heckett would say Yes Sir and the DI would just say ' You're going ' which was short for you're a grunt and you're whole world was about to change . Then after ITR at Camp Pendleton you got your orders which became real because you were going into the spombleprofglidnoctobuns or you might go to a number of places . I got orders for Iwakuni , Japan and one of my good buddies from Boot Camp was going to Nam . Everything became REAL that day !
Not all Marines were good shots and that is why the 3 levels , Expert , Sharpshooter and Marksman distinguished the difference in your ability with a rifle.
I think that you would probably agree that the amount of training received, and the minimum requirements to qualify, would insure that: relative to the average civilian’s shooting abilities, even the lowest Marine Corps shooting level would be considered a very good shot.
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Not all Marines were good shots and that is why the 3 levels , Expert , Sharpshooter and Marksman distinguished the difference in your ability with a rifle.
I think that you would probably agree that the amount of training received, and the minimum requirements to qualify, would insure that: relative to the average civilian’s shooting abilities, even the lowest Marine Corps shooting level would be considered a very good shot.
The little prick was good enough to make those shots. He was Marine-trained FFS
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Not all Marines were good shots and that is why the 3 levels , Expert , Sharpshooter and Marksman distinguished the difference in your ability with a rifle.
I think that you would probably agree that the amount of training received, and the minimum requirements to qualify, would insure that: relative to the average civilian’s shooting abilities, even the lowest Marine Corps shooting level would be considered a very good shot.
Charlie you're painting with a very broad brush..... Simply because a man became very good with an excellent rifle after intense training and coaching does NOT mean that he would be equally good with a entirely different rifle. ( A rifle that was used by armies that LOST the war)
Simply because a man can drive a modern car with an automatic transmission and power steering, does not mean that he could be equally proficient behind the wheel of a model T Ford.