I have recently read most of the book “The Girl on the Stairs” by Barry Ernest. And here’s a quote from that book that helped clarify for me an aspect of Victoria Adams’ testimony about what she saw and heard when the shots were fired:
“I specifically asked if she remembered seeing Kennedy when she heard the first shot. “No,” she answered, “because I did not see the limousine at that time. It was under the tree.” As she gazed out the window, she said, the tree was “slightly to my right.””
Ernest’s book gives me the impression that Victoria Adams was a credible witness. But Victoria’s WC testimony left it a little unclear to me whether the first shot was fired just before JFK disappeared beneath the tree or just after he disappeared under the tree. The clarification, in Ernest’s book, inspired me to use my 3-D computer model to try to determine at approximately what point in time (z-frame) JFK would have disappeared from her view because of the tree.
I placed a generic tree in a position that corresponds with the tree’s position indicated on Don Roberdeaux’s map. I placed the 3-D virtual visitor’s view at the fourth floor window that Victoria testified that she watched the motorcade from. I already had a convertible with a male character sitting in the right rear seat placed in the position of JFK at Z-133, according to Don’s map. And it is apparent that JFK is hidden from the view by the tree from that window at the z-133 point in time.
I know that there are a few others here that have created their own 3-D computer models of Dealey Plaza. And if any one of them can help me verify my results with a similar experiment of their own, I would greatly appreciate it.
Anyone with a copy of Don’s map can simply place a straightedge between that window and the Z-133 mark indicated on Elm Street and see for themselves that it crosses the edge of the tree limbs. However, seeing it on a 3-D computer model helps to verify what it looks like from that elevation and location.
Charles,
From which window on the 4th floor did Adams watch the motorcade?
Roberdeau's map doesn't say.
-- MWT ,)
Euins said on the day of the assassination:
"I watched the car [go] on down the street and about the time the car got near the black and white sign I heard a shot."
This as likely means the Thornton Freeway sign, not the sign cluster that Holland tried to make people think Euins was referring to.
(http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/images/news/lostBullet/FIG13_122111.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
"JFK: The Lost Bullet" (Limo positioned approx. at Z133)(https://sites.google.com/site/shotonelmclassicsiteview/dealeyplaza/king-dealey-plaza-03.jpg)
I have recently read most of the book “The Girl on the Stairs” by Barry Ernest. And here’s a quote from that book that helped clarify for me an aspect of Victoria Adams’ testimony about what she saw and heard when the shots were fired:
“I specifically asked if she remembered seeing Kennedy when she heard the first shot. “No,” she answered, “because I did not see the limousine at that time. It was under the tree.” As she gazed out the window, she said, the tree was “slightly to my right.””
Ernest’s book gives me the impression that Victoria Adams was a credible witness. But Victoria’s WC testimony left it a little unclear to me whether the first shot was fired just before JFK disappeared beneath the tree or just after he disappeared under the tree. The clarification, in Ernest’s book, inspired me to use my 3-D computer model to try to determine at approximately what point in time (z-frame) JFK would have disappeared from her view because of the tree.
I placed a generic tree in a position that corresponds with the tree’s position indicated on Don Roberdeaux’s map. I placed the 3-D virtual visitor’s view at the fourth floor window that Victoria testified that she watched the motorcade from. I already had a convertible with a male character sitting in the right rear seat placed in the position of JFK at Z-133, according to Don’s map. And it is apparent that JFK is hidden from the view by the tree from that window at the z-133 point in time.
I know that there are a few others here that have created their own 3-D computer models of Dealey Plaza. And if any one of them can help me verify my results with a similar experiment of their own, I would greatly appreciate it.
Anyone with a copy of Don’s map can simply place a straightedge between that window and the Z-133 mark indicated on Elm Street and see for themselves that it crosses the edge of the tree limbs. However, seeing it on a 3-D computer model helps to verify what it looks like from that elevation and location.
Hey Charles,
I don't know if this is any help but it concerns something Gloria Calvery mentioned on her 'Hoover Questionnaire'. Sandy Larsen and Thomas Graves have put together an excellent case identifying this woman (arrow) as Gloria Calvery:
(https://i.postimg.cc/JzWM00Zd/Gloria-Calvary-in-Zfilm.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
The relevant passage is as follows:
"We were standing at this point when President John F. Kennedy was shot. The car he was in was almost directly in front of where I was standing when I heard the first shot."
Obviously you'll have to pinpoint her exact position but you sound like you sound like you know exactly what you're doing.
Hey Charles,
I don't know if this is any help but it concerns something Gloria Calvery mentioned on her 'Hoover Questionnaire'. Sandy Larsen and Thomas Graves have put together an excellent case identifying this woman (arrow) as Gloria Calvery:
(https://i.postimg.cc/JzWM00Zd/Gloria-Calvary-in-Zfilm.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
The relevant passage is as follows:
"We were standing at this point when President John F. Kennedy was shot. The car he was in was almost directly in front of where I was standing when I heard the first shot."
Obviously you'll have to pinpoint her exact position but you sound like you sound like you know exactly what you're doing.
Dan,
Thanks, but the limo was about 50 yards up the street from our (correctly-identified) big-tall Gloria Calvery and her three headscarf-wearing colleagues when the first (missing) shot of three shots, total, was fired from the Sixth Floor "Sniper's Nest".
Did she say she heard three shots?
If so, she must have thought that the limo, travelling towards her at about 10 miles per hour (?) was, IN RETROSPECT, "almost in front of her" when the first shot rang out.
-- MWT ;)
Fair enough, just thought it might be something.
Euins said on the day of the assassination:
"I watched the car [go] on down the street and about the time the car got near the black and white sign I heard a shot."
This as likely means the Thornton Freeway sign, not the sign cluster that Holland tried to make people think Euins was referring to.
(http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/images/news/lostBullet/FIG13_122111.jpg)
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/newsgroup/spacers/dot_clear.gif)
"JFK: The Lost Bullet" (Limo positioned approx. at Z133)(https://sites.google.com/site/shotonelmclassicsiteview/dealeyplaza/king-dealey-plaza-03.jpg)
Nope.
As he clarified the issue to Max Holland in The Lost Bullet, Euins was referring to the smallish signs (plural) clustered together on the pole on the "island".
Holland even asked a follow-up question to make sure there would be no misunderstanding by LNers or, especially, CTers, alike.
You seem to forget that witness Patricia Ann Lawrence (nee Donaldson, or is it the other way around?) corroborated to Holland what Euins had told him regarding the position of the limo when the first shot rang out.
Nice try, though.
-- MWT ;)
Also, in that Euins piece, Euins describes the Pacing of the 3 shots. There is No Way the Bolt Action Carcano could have fired the 3 shot timing that Euins Specifically Describes and demonstrates as he pounds his hand down on the pedestal he alleges he ducked behind.
If Euins story is True, he was Extremely close to the Sniper's Nest with Nothing between him and that window for sound to carom/echo off of. Those of You that want to buy into the Euins Story MUST take his ENTIRE Story. NO Cherry Picking to suit your fancy!
When you are forced into claiming "psychological", your position Immediately becomes DOA.
Watching the emphatic Old Man Euins tell/demonstrate the 3 shot sequence he heard, does Not indicate someone suffering from any degree of Assassination Psychosis.
Watching the emphatic Old Man Euins tell/demonstrate the 3 shot sequence he heard, does Not indicate someone suffering from any degree of Assassination Psychosis.
Victoria Adams spoke to detective James R. Leavelle of the DPD on 2/17/64. This is part of her statement: "When the President got in front of us I heard someone call him, and he turned. That is when I heard the first shot."
I reviewed the Tina Towner film and paid close attention to the actions of JFK. In the final few seconds of that film JFK does turn his head toward the TSBD and his right arm raises up and he waves just as the film ends. Just like Victoria Adams said.
Next I used Mark Tyler"s Motorcade 63 animation and paused it approximately where the end of Towner's film is indicated. Then I plotted the location of JFK in the backseat of the limo using the scale of Mark's animation. And placed a convertible with a male character in the backseat in that plotted location (relative to the southeast corner of the TSBD) in my 3-D computer model. Next I viewed the scene (using my 3-D model) as Victoria would have seen it from the fourth floor window. The results were just as Victoria said: right in front of her window and just before going behind the tree is the convertible with the male character. The front portion of the convertible is hidden from her view by the tree limbs but the rear seat and it's occupant are still visible.
Tina Towner has said that she stopped filming just before the first shot. Dale Myers calculated that Towner's film ends just before Zapruder began filming that portion of his film. And in the first portion of Zapruder's film JFK is seen lowering his right arm just after the wave that was begun at the end of Towner's film.
I asked for and received permission from Mark Tyler to post a couple of screenshots that will let you see some of the items I used in the proceedures I have just described.
The Towner film start position:
(https://i.vgy.me/VIUJpB.jpg)
The Towner film end position:
(https://i.vgy.me/7Jb8im.jpg)
The view (from the 3-D model 4th floor window) that Victoria Adams was watching the motorcade from:
(https://i.vgy.me/IPEqIf.jpg)
The free 3-D program that I use has its limitations and mine as its user. But I have used the sniper's nest model to demonstrate several things and it has proven to be accurate. I still need to fine tune things like the dimensions of the tree, but this is close enough to show that Victoria Adams was accurate in her description of what she saw. In the book "The Girl on the Stairs" by Barry Ernest Victoria clarifies her earlier statements and specifically says that she heard the first shot while JFK was hidden from her view by the tree.
Anyway, this appears to me to be further evidence that the first shot happened in the vicinity of Z-133. I believe it probably happened just before Z-133.
If any others with 3-D computer models cares to take the time to verify this work I would greatly appreciate it.
Charles,
Good work!
FWIW, I seriously think JFK might have been waving back to pretty Patricia Ann Donaldson-Lawrence, who was standing in the curving line in the street and is visible not only in Wiegman, but in Towner and Hughes (iirc) as well, not far from Stetson Man (who, being tall and dressed in white, serves as a good visual landmark in these clips).
-- MWT ;)
Thanks!
So you think that JFK was flirting with the pretty gals in Texas while sitting right next to his wife???
Hmmm, you’re probably right!
Charles,
I just now watched the Towner clip (again) and reread what you'd written ... and I was wrong.
If JFK waved to pretty Patricia Ann, it would have been when he waved the lingering wave a few seconds earlier, i.e., at about 0:06 in this clip:
So maybe he was waving to pretty Peggy Joyce Hawkins (and her four year-old son) on the "island," instead.
LOL
-- MWT ;)
Edit: Or (he's waving at Patricia Ann in the background, near Strtson Man) at about 0:14 in this slo-mo version:
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x35n2ha
To me it appears that JFK was doing a repetitive almost rhythmic motion in which he was raising and lowering his right arm to wave and turning his head to acknowledge the crowd. And this appears to be interrupted for a little bit immediately following the end of Towner’s film/beginning of Zapruder film. In other words if one watches his actions during the Towner film and can discern the rhythm I just described, one would expect a continuation of that type of rhythm during the first part of the Zapruder film. But that doesn’t happen. It is a considerable amount of time before he starts another wave. And during that interval we can see some quizzical looking expressions on the occupants of the limo as they appear to be looking all around and wondering what that loud noise was. See photo by Croft for the expressions, and the motions in that portion of Zapruder film. By the time of the Garrison fiasco, Phil Willis had changed his claim about the first causing him to take his fifth photo to it causing him to take one of his photos. Willis’ fourth photo was taken (you guessed it) very shortly after z-133. And it is out of focus and motion blurred as one would expect if it had been inadvertently taken before Willis was completely ready and had everything set. JFK appears to be brushing his hair back in Willis 4. Who was it that said the first shot happened right after JFK did that?
I still go with Max Holland when he says the first shot occured about 1.4 seconds before Z133.
If the first shot was the one that injured James Tague, it had to lose its copper jacket somewhere along the way, probably when it glanced off the traffic light mast arm.
Hinkley (sp?) bent over and looked at something on the ground. His attemtention could have been drawn to the falling debris from that impact.
-- MWT ;)
I think Hickey was probably looking at tires for evidence of a blowout after hearing the loud bang. I have a theory that LHO was positioning the rifle and intended to wait to fire until just after JFK emerged from the other side of the tree (from the sniper's nest view). But, while moving into position, his left arm hit the electrical conduit between his position and the window frame and this unexpected collision caused him to inadvertently fire the rifle before he could fully position and aim it. The bullet could have hit the corner of the concrete pad where DPD Foster found a mark. There is also a furrow in the turf nearby. The copper jacket could have separated from the lead due to that impact and the jacket caused the furrow. Some or all of the remaining lead bullet could have continued and struck the curb near Tague's position. Just a theory, but I don't know of any conclusive evidence that says it is impossible.
Charles,
I wonder where the mast arm is (from the sniper's perspective) in your Vicki Adams-based simulation?
-- MWT ;)
"quizzical looking expressions" ... "photo by Croft for the expressions"
That has to be one of the most ridiculous claim in recent years.
Jim Towner slide
Robert Croft photo
There's nothing usual in the Croft photograph whatsoever. Compare to Towner.
Jackie has practically the same expression. The President seems in no distress. The Connallys are looking off to their sides as much in both pictures.
Things get unusual immediately after the Croft photo, when both Connallys effect rapid rightward head turns during the Z160s, along with Mrs. Kennedy a half-second-or-so later. All three said they turned their heads rightward in response to their hearing the first shot.
That has to be one of the most ridiculous claims in recent years.
I have made it before and you had a similar response. Your opinion is your opinion and mine is mine. Neither is going to change so let’s move on.
Charles,
What Organ doesn't realize is that by the time the Croft photo was taken, Connally and JFK were already finished looking around in response to the first shot a little before Z133, and now JBC is probably asking his wife, "What the xxxx was that?"
-- MWT ;)
Victoria Adams spoke to detective James R. Leavelle of the DPD on 2/17/64. This is part of her statement: "When the President got in front of us I heard someone call him, and he turned. That is when I heard the first shot."Charles,
I reviewed the Tina Towner film and paid close attention to the actions of JFK. In the final few seconds of that film JFK does turn his head toward the TSBD and his right arm raises up and he waves just as the film ends. Just like Victoria Adams said.
Next I used Mark Tyler"s Motorcade 63 animation and paused it approximately where the end of Towner's film is indicated. Then I plotted the location of JFK in the backseat of the limo using the scale of Mark's animation. And placed a convertible with a male character in the backseat in that plotted location (relative to the southeast corner of the TSBD) in my 3-D computer model. Next I viewed the scene (using my 3-D model) as Victoria would have seen it from the fourth floor window. The results were just as Victoria said: right in front of her window and just before going behind the tree is the convertible with the male character. The front portion of the convertible is hidden from her view by the tree limbs but the rear seat and it's occupant are still visible.
Tina Towner has said that she stopped filming just before the first shot. Dale Myers calculated that Towner's film ends just before Zapruder began filming that portion of his film. And in the first portion of Zapruder's film JFK is seen lowering his right arm just after the wave that was begun at the end of Towner's film.
I asked for and received permission from Mark Tyler to post a couple of screenshots that will let you see some of the items I used in the proceedures I have just described.
The Towner film start position:
(https://i.vgy.me/VIUJpB.jpg)
The Towner film end position:
(https://i.vgy.me/7Jb8im.jpg)
The view (from the 3-D model 4th floor window) that Victoria Adams was watching the motorcade from:
(https://i.vgy.me/IPEqIf.jpg)
The free 3-D program that I use has its limitations and mine as its user. But I have used the sniper's nest model to demonstrate several things and it has proven to be accurate. I still need to fine tune things like the dimensions of the tree, but this is close enough to show that Victoria Adams was accurate in her description of what she saw. In the book "The Girl on the Stairs" by Barry Ernest Victoria clarifies her earlier statements and specifically says that she heard the first shot while JFK was hidden from her view by the tree.
Anyway, this appears to me to be further evidence that the first shot happened in the vicinity of Z-133. I believe it probably happened just before Z-133.
If any others with 3-D computer models cares to take the time to verify this work I would greatly appreciate it.
Exactly, and Jackie’s smile has been replaced with a look of concern.
Charles,
Nice catch regarding the change in Jackie's visage.
-- MWT ;)
Charles,
Here are views from Dorman (assumed to be similar to that for Vicky Adams), along with a view from the SN at ~Z133. I just put in the camera locations and ran the 3D model without tweaking the tree size or location. If these are helpful, just ask for alternate views you would like to see. I have no means to model trees in the software, so the transparent lollipops will have to suffice. Keep up the great work on your 3D efforts!
(https://i.imgur.com/QywO2FM.png)
That is superb James! I know you have said that you have spent a lot of time at Dealey Plaza measuring everything and many years of effort to create your 3-D computer model. So I have the utmost confidence in what you have provided us from it. Those images look spot on compared to what can be seen from the Dorman Film (unfortunately only the opposite side of the street in that film) and agrees with what can be seen in the Secret Service 1963 reenactments. Thanks so much, it shows that my comparatively crude efforts are relatively close. By the way, is there a chance that you might share the dimensions of the traffic light mast with me? I have only educated guesses to go by so far. Thanks also for the encouragement. It means a lot.The linked article by Frank S. DeRonja and Max Holland contains measurements from The Union Metal MFG. Co. on page 15 of the downloadable PDF..
I don’t think she looks particularly concerned. She’s still smiling.
Charles,
What Organ doesn't realize is that by the time the Croft photo was taken, Connally and JFK were already finished looking around in response to the first shot a little before Z133, and now JBC is probably asking his wife, "What the xxxx was that?"
-- MWT ;)
JBC said he knew right away that it was a rifle shot
But possibly the missus cutting the cheese was 'what the xxxx'.
Yuk Yuk Yuk
You don't think he might have been asking her in Croft, ""Honey, did you hear what I heard?"
-- MWT ;)
JBC: Did you smell that?
Nellie: Smells like gunpowder
JBC: NO!NO!NO! I think Jackie f*arted.
SHE WANTS TO KILL US ALL!
You're so funny in a strange kind of way.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rmKsQ9XQ/jackie-smile-or-frown.gif)
JohnM
(https://i.postimg.cc/rmKsQ9XQ/jackie-smile-or-frown.gif)
JohnM
Significant change in demeanor, imho.
As to why she's still looking this direction instead of conferring with JFK ("Was that a firecracker?"), we may be witnessing her public persona as "composed, dignified First Lady," here.
-- MWT ;)
In the clip below, I believe that you can see each of the limo occupants simultaneously react to the sound of the first shot.
(https://i.vgy.me/WVfbbb.gif)
JFK suddenly drops his right hand from his hair and looks to his left (towards Jackie). Then suddenly returns his head to the crowd on his right (probably reacting to the sound of someone yelling).
John Connally first turns to his right, then quickly turns to his left (towards Nellie), then back to his right.
Jackie suddenly turns her head further to her left, then back towards the front of the limo.
Nellie Connally suddenly turns to her right (towards John Connally).
Agent Roy Kellerman suddenly turns his head to his right, then quickly back towards the front.
Agent Greer (driver) appears to have his gaze towards the camera (Zapruder) and doesn't appear to move his head. He is the exception, perhaps Zapruder (up high on the pedistal) caught his eye.
And last, but not least,William T. McIntyre(on the left running board of the presidential follow-up car)Hickey suddenly looks to his left and down. He appears to me to be looking at the tires of the limo for a blow-out. (Perhaps he thought the loud noise might have been a tire blowing out.)
Edit: William T. McIntyre is almost hidden behind Clint Hill. However, I believe I see him suddenly duck his head and look around Clint Hill.