JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: Mike Orr on February 26, 2021, 05:20:32 AM
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Why did the CIA want Silvia Duran arrested on November 23 , 1963 , the day after JFK was assassinated ?
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Why did the CIA want Silvia Duran arrested on November 23 , 1963 , the day after JFK was assassinated ?
Why did the CIA Hoover want Silvia Duran arrested on November 23 , 1963 , the day after JFK was assassinated ?
Because Hosty had spilled the beans and opened a can-o- worms when he asked Lee oswald if he had been to Mexico City....
The original plan was to make it appear that Castro was behind the murder of JFK, and Lee had received money from the Cuban embassy to purchase the weapon he needed to kill JFK. When Khrushchev ordered nuclear bombers into the air*** at the first report of the murder of JFK LBJ panicked ( we are alive because he did) ...Thus Washington wanted to sweep the Cuban Consulate episode under the rug post haste....and Hoover requested that the Mexican President have Sylvia arrested and held in communicato so she couldn't reveal the story about Lee being at the Cuban consulate....Washington was peeing down their leg because they were afraid that reporters might get wind of the original plot
*** Khrushchev knew of the plot to murder JFK, ( his spies had learned of the plot) and he knew that the war hawks in the Pentagon, who JFK had curtailed, would prod LBJ to attack the Soviet Union. Thus Khrushchev was prepared and he ordered the nuke bombers into the air.
PS Khrushev had attempted to warn JFK about the plot ....but JFK thought he could outsmart the culprits by placing one of them right in front of him in the Limo..... He order Yarborough to ride in another car and told John Connally to take the seat directly in front of him. JFK underestimated the cunning and cold desperation of LBJ.....
Hosty had spilled the beans and opened a can-o- worms when he asked Lee Oswald if he had been to Mexico City...
Hosty knew of the plot to frame Lee Oswald, and make it appear as if Lee was working for Fidel Castro... thus he wanted to get the ball rolling ASAP....when he told Captain Fritz to ask Lee about Mexico City.
When Hosty arrived at the DPD at about 2:45 pm he immediately told DPD detective Jack Revill that a communist named Lee Oswald had killed Kennedy. Hosty said that the FBI knew that Lee Oswald was capable of killing JFK but they had doubts that he would actually do it. In just a couple of hours The amazing Hosty had solved the case.
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What is really strange is that according to Duran "Oswald" [put in quotes because I doubt it was Lee] visited and returned to see her SIX different times. There were supposedly brand new CIA surveillance cameras in operation focused on the Cuban Embassy doors and there was not one single photo that was released of Lee Harvey Oswald.
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What is really strange is that according to Duran "Oswald" [put in quotes because I doubt it was Lee] visited and returned to see her SIX different times. There were supposedly brand new CIA surveillance cameras in operation focused on the Cuban Embassy doors and there was not one single photo that was released of Lee Harvey Oswald.
there was not one single photo that was released of Lee Harvey Oswald.
Of course not.... At that point they were desperate to crush the tale that Lee Oswald had acted as an agent of Fidel Castro....
Hoover had decided that they needed to feed the pissants the tale that Lee was a lone nut.... A lone nut had no accomplices and no motive for murdering the president.
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What is really strange is that according to Duran "Oswald" [put in quotes because I doubt it was Lee] visited and returned to see her SIX different times. There were supposedly brand new CIA surveillance cameras in operation focused on the Cuban Embassy doors and there was not one single photo that was released of Lee Harvey Oswald.
Of course they weren't released. The public was not supposed to even know that there was a secret camera installation monitoring the cuban consulate. If they released the photo, the installation wouldn't be a secret anymore.
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Silvia Duran testified that Oswald came to the Consulate three times. The evidence is that it was twice on Friday (September 27, 1963) and again on SaPersonay.
From her HSCA Testimony:
CORNWELL - Directing your attention than to approximately late September of 1963, as we learned from you the other day, a man came to the Consulate, a man who you later associated with pictures in the newspaper and a name in the newspaper of the alleged assassin of the President. Is that correct?
TIRADO - Yes.
CORNWELL - Do you remember how many times he came to the Consulate?
TIRADO - Three times.
Oswald was told by Duran that he needed to show his Soviet visa before she could give him a transit visa. So over two days - and several hours - he went to the Soviet Embassy to request a visa. There he met three senior KGB officers who were also working as Embassy staffers. All said the man they met was Lee Oswald. They also said that Oswald was behaving erratically and pulled out his revolver and waved it around saying he needed it for protection. If that was an Oswald impostor why in the world would he draw close attention to himself by acting like that?
One of them, Oleg Nechiporenko, later wrote a book called "Passport to Assassination." Again, he says the man was Oswald.
Two Australian women - Pamela Mumford and Patricia Winston - were on a bus to Mexico City on a vacation. Both said they met Oswald on that bus.
Mumford's testimony is here: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/mumford.htm
Oswald's Cuban transit visa application is below. It's Oswald. And the signature was identified as being his.
(https://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/59eca079140000371b8c90b3.jpeg?ops=scalefit_630_noupscale)
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Of course they weren't released. The public was not supposed to even know that there was a secret camera installation monitoring the cuban consulate. If they released the photo, the installation wouldn't be a secret anymore.
So what? What public? A silly post if I've ever read one. Did you make that up? :D
Did you ever see this before...Oswald at the Russian embassy----
(https://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/a/aa/Pict_MysteryMan_HSCA-935-927G.jpg)
Nothing secret there?
https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/Oswald_in_Mexico_City.html
Silvia Duran testified that Oswald came to the Consulate three times.
OK I mis-stated but what I meant is three times in and 3 times out = 6 times ---is that better? And still no picture of LHO.
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Duran testified that when Oswald was told he could not get a transit visa at that time that "he became highly agitated and angry...He was red and he was almost crying, and uh he was insisting and insisting...[Azcue] opened the door and told Oswald to go away..
Azcue tesitifed that the man "was very anxious we grant him the visa...We never had any individual that was so insistent or persistent...He was never friendly...He accused us of being bureaucrats and in a very discourteous manner..."
Someone impersonating another person wouldn't, it seems obviously, act this way. Go back multiple time? Isn't once enough? And then act in an outward way that draws great attention to yourself?
Further: Handwriting experts for the WC and HSCA concluded that the signature on the hotel register at the hotel in MC he stayed at belonged to Oswald. The hotel manager and the maid both identified Oswald as being there. The desk clerk and the night watchman both identified Oswald as the American (a rarity they said) who stayed there. The owner of a nearby restaurant identified Oswald as the American who had eaten several meals there. Oswald wrote in a letter he sent to the Soviet Embassy that he went to MC and visited the Cuban consulate...on and on and on....
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If that was an Oswald impostor why in the world would he draw close attention to himself by acting like that?
I believe there are multiple instances of someone impersonating LHO in the weeks leading up to the assassination. They have something in common. In all instances the imposter DID things to draw attention to himself because his intent was to create a scene that people would remember. All the instances put LHO in a guilty posture. Why pretend to be LHO if no one would remember? Look at all these stories and we see a man who did not act like the real LHO ... he was not polite and quiet which was LHO's real personality. To the contrary the imposter was rude and loud, in every instance.
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The three senior KGB officers/Embassy officials who met Oswald in Mexico City were first interviewed in 1993 by the PBS Frontline program "Who Was Lee Harvey Oswald?" Here are excerpts from that show.
FRONTLINE NARRATOR: At the Soviet embassy, he met with three consular officials. In fact, all three were KGB officers working under diplomatic cover. In this, their first interview, they recall that Oswald's hands were shaking and his behavior was erratic.
OLEG NECHIPORENKO, KGB: [through interpreter] We all thought the man had an unstable nervous system. He was extremely agitated.
VALERY KOSTIKOV, KGB: [through interpreter] During our talk, Oswald kept feeling in his pockets, taking out all sorts of papers. Then he took out a gun and put it in front of him. I sat opposite him. I took the gun away and put it on Pavel's desk.
Pavel Antonovich asked him, "Why did you come here with a gun? What do you need a gun for?" He said, "I'm afraid of the FBI. I'm being persecuted. I need a gun to protect myself, for my personal safety." That's what he said."
The three KGB officers were shown the photo that the CIA released. All said the man was not the person they met who said he was Oswald.
NARRATOR: But there is much evidence that the real Oswald was in Mexico City. At the Soviet embassy, all three KGB officers told FRONTLINE the man they met was the real Lee Harvey Oswald, not the man in the photograph the CIA released.
VALERY KOSTIKOV, KGB: [through interpreter] No, this is a completely different person. The Oswald who had visited our embassy and whose photographs I saw in many newspapers and on TV was completely different.
Source/link: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/oswald/transcript/
Nechiporenko wrote a book - "Passport to Assassination" - about the meeting. He said the man was indeed Lee Harvey Oswald and that the man in the photo did not identify himself as Oswald but was an American who had visited the Embassy before seeking a visa.
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Someone impersonating another person wouldn't, it seems obviously, act this way. Go back multiple time? Isn't once enough? And then act in an outward way that draws great attention to yourself?
Answered concisely above...attention is what was intended.
Further: Handwriting experts... concluded that the signature on the hotel register belonged to Oswald.
A forgery? Why not sign it 'Hidell'? ....wrote in a letter he sent to the Soviet Embassy that he went to MC and visited the Cuban consulate.
Then why would he staunchly deny ever being in Mexico when interrogated by Fritz?
21 pages were done on all this here-------
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1599.msg41639.html#msg41639
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Just one more and I promise to shut up.
This is the photo (immediately below) that the man who said he was Oswald gave to the Cubans (Duran) for his transit visa application. The Cuban government provided this to the HSCA investigation (you can see the two staples that were used to staple it to the application).
(https://www.justice-integrity.org/images/jip/i-l-photos/lee-harvey-oswald_cuba-passport_application.jpg)
This is a photo of the man who some believe was impersonating Oswald.
(https://www.irishexaminer.com/cms_media/module_img/627/313841_1_articleinline_ie-461918_e3363b9a3d7b4b9eaa62f5ed923dffed.jpg)
It is obvious to anyone that the two men are different. Does anyone believe that Duran was given the top above photo but the man below was the actual person who was impersonating Oswald? And he gave the top above photo for his application to Duran? And she didn't realize the difference?
Imagine that you are Duran. The man in the second photo comes to you applying for a transit visa. He gives you the above top photo for the application. You look at it. You can see within a second that the photo is not of the man in front of you; it's a different person.
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Just one more and I promise to shut up.
... the photo that the man who said he was Oswald gave to the Cubans (Duran) for his transit visa application. The Cuban government provided this to the HSCA investigation (you can see the two staples that were used to staple it to the application).
Ms Duran was a Mexican national not a Cuban. A link/report--- Why did Duran refer to Oswald in her interrogations as "blonde and short," an identification subsequently omitted from accounts of the interrogation? Was she describing Oswald or an imposter? It should be noted here that Duran told the HSCA she believed that she dealt with the same man who was arrested in Dallas, though her colleague Eusebio Azcue told the HSCA he believed otherwise.
https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/Sylvia_Durans_Interrogation.html
... a photo of the man who some believe was impersonating Oswald.
It is obvious to anyone that the two men are different.
Go look through that thread I linked.
There is no proof otherwise that he was deliberately impersonating Oswald.
Does anyone believe that Duran was given the top above photo but the man below was the actual person who was impersonating Oswald? And he gave the top above photo for his application to Duran? And she didn't realize the difference?
Who told you that Duran was shown that Russian embassy picture? I don't believe she was. Also...she could have just been given that Oswald photo [taken elsewhere besides Mexico]--the tie..the sweater.. :-\ all this discussed somewhere in that Oswald in Mexico thread. We were told that people said Lee Oswald was in Mexico. We were also told that Saddam had WMDs ???
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Back to the original post/question. This is from Gus Russo's book "Live by the Sword":
"On the day after the assassination, CIA headquarters in Langley received a cable from the Mexico City Station informing them that the Mexican Police were detaining and planning to arrest Sylvia Duran... Headquarters immediately telephoned the Mexico Station ordering them to prevent the arrest. If Cuba was involved in the president's assassination, the CIA wanted to find out before the Mexico City police did.
Thomas Karamessines, Deputy to Richard Helms, the CIA's Deputy Director for Plans, has testified that "the CIA feared that the Cubans were responsible [for the assassination] and that Duran might reveal this during an interrogation...
The CIA was unsuccessful, however, in preventing the arrest, and was forced to settle for assisting Mexican authorities preparing the Duran interrogation questions. "
From the cable that Karamessines sent to the Mexico City Station:
"ARREST OF SYLVIA DURAN IS EXTREMELY SERIOUS MATTER WHICH COULD PREJUDICE [U.S. ] FREEDOM OF ACTION ON ENTIRE QUESTION OF [CUBAN] RESPONSIBILITY. WITH FULL REGARD FOR MEXICAN INTEREST, REQUEST YOU ENSURE THAT HER ARREST IS KEPT ABSOLUTELY SECRET, THAT NO INFORMATION FROM HER IS PUBLISHED OR LEAKED, THAT ALL SUCH INFO IS CABLED TO US, AND THAT FACT OF HER ARREST AND HER STATEMENTS ARE NOT SPREAD TO LEFTIST OR DISLOYAL CIRCLES IN THE MEXICAN GOVERNMENT."
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If that was an Oswald impostor why in the world would he draw close attention to himself by acting like that?
I believe there are multiple instances of someone impersonating LHO in the weeks leading up to the assassination. They have something in common. In all instances the imposter DID things to draw attention to himself because his intent was to create a scene that people would remember. All the instances put LHO in a guilty posture. Why pretend to be LHO if no one would remember? Look at all these stories and we see a man who did not act like the real LHO ... he was not polite and quiet which was LHO's real personality. To the contrary the imposter was rude and loud, in every instance.
he was not polite and quiet which was LHO's real personality. To the contrary the imposter was rude and loud, in every instance.
I believe you are right Louis.... In the "disturbing the peace incident in N.O"....Lee wasn't the aggressor, and he did not create a loud scene.
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Dan Hardaway on the Mexico City investigations:
In 1978 the CIA resisted the HSCA’s inquiry into Mexico City more than any other area of inquiry. The chief counsel, G. Robert Blakey, told the Committee on August 15, 1978, “[T]he deeper we have gotten into the Agency’s performance in Mexico City, the more difficult they have gotten in dealing with us, the more they have insisted on relevance, the more they have gone back in effect on their agreement to give us access to unsanitized files. For a while we had general and free access to unsanitized files. That is increasingly not true in the Mexico City area….” And we have since learned that they used George Joannides to shut down the investigation into Oswald and Mexico City. In doing so, they lied to us about who he was. He ran propaganda operations in Miami in 1963-64 and was the case officer for DRE, the anti-Castro group that scored the anti-Fair Play for Cuba Committee coup using Oswald in New Orleans in August of 1963.
As G. Robert Blakey has since acknowledged, “The CIA not only lied, it actively subverted the investigation.” I think the CIA expected we would take the superficial approach of considering the “Castro did it” theory, but when we went beyond the initial appearances and began pushing our investigation into the propaganda sources, seeking interviews with the actual penetration and surveillance agents, seeking to find others in Mexico City who may have seen Oswald, then the Agency resistance to our investigation turned to a stonewall. Shouldn’t it be enough to raise serious questions that when a Congressional Committee investigating specific disinformation operations ran by the CIA, the CIA brings one of those involved in the operation being investigated and uses him in an undercover capacity to forestall and subvert the investigation? But that’s not all...
Phillips was transferred to Mexico City later in 1961 after the Bay of Pigs. Kent was promoted to Headquarters, and George Joannides took over Kent’s position in Miami, including supervision of DRE. While still stationed in Headquarters in the early 60’s, David Phillips had worked with Cord Meyer to develop the first disinformation campaign aimed at discrediting and disrupting a group of Castro sympathizers who had organized themselves into the Fair Play for Cuba Committee (FPCC). In the summer of 1963 Lee Harvey Oswald formed a chapter of the FPCC in New Orleans. In August of 1963 Lee Harvey Oswald, still in New Orleans, had an encounter with DRE which led to a lot of publicity linking Oswald to communists, labeling him as pro-Castro, and discrediting the FPCC. In July and August of that year there is strong evidence that Oswald was used to identify and contact pro-Castro students at Tulane University. In early September, Oswald was seen with David Philips in Dallas.
On September 16, 1963, the CIA informed the FBI that it was considering action to counter the activities of the FPCC in foreign countries. To my knowledge, the operational files on this new anti-FPCC operation have never been released by the CIA. In New Orleans, on September 17, 1963, Oswald applied for, and received, a Mexican travel visa immediately after William Gaudet, a known CIA agent, had applied for one. On September 27 Oswald arrived in Mexico City. This activity did not occur suddenly or in a vacuum. Oswald had started establishing his pro-Castro bona fides earlier that summer in New Orleans, including establishing an FPCC chapter there.
There are too many similarities between Oswald’s activities in New Orleans and Mexico City to simply dismiss, without investigation or discussion, the possibility that he was being used in an intelligence operation, either wittingly or unwittingly, in both cities. In addition to his contacts with the Soviet and Cuban diplomatic facilities in Mexico City, which could have been part of an intelligence dangle, an attempt to discredit the FPCC, or both, there is now also evidence of Oswald’s contacts with students at the National Autonomous University of Mexico and his presence at social events with Cuban Consulate employees.
David Phillips frequently lied about Oswald and Mexico City, but in a footnote in a little known book he self-published, Secret Wars Diary, he wrote: “I was an observer of Cuban and Soviet reaction when Lee Harvey Oswald contacted their embassies.” [Emphasis added.] One purpose served by an intelligence dangle is to enable the dangling agency to observe the reaction and, from that observation, identify roles of employees, procedures and processes of the enemy...
In 1978, we knew not only about the allegations of the twist party, but also about the stories of Oswald’s contact with students. The CIA prevented us from interviewing Oscar Contreras, a student Oswald contacted. But Anthony Summers, and others, have interviewed him since. Contreras acknowledges that Oswald, in late September, 1963, approached him and three other students who were members of a pro-Castro student organization. He asked them for help getting a visa to Cuba from the Consulate. Contreras did have contacts at the Consulate and spoke to the Consul and an intelligence officer. Both warned him to have nothing to do with Oswald as they suspected he was trying to infiltrate proCastro groups. Contreras still wonders how Oswald identified him and his friends as the students, out of the thousands attending the University, as the ones with contacts in the Consulate. Shenon, some way or another, sees this incident as supporting possible Cuban involvement in the assassination. No mention is made to the similarity to what Oswald was doing with Tulane students in New Orleans...
...the fact is that it is still very much in question whether Duran had been recruited as an asset by the CIA. David Phillips, as well as other CIA employees, in 1978, were of the opinion that she may have been targeted for recruitment by the CIA. The CIA, then and since, has gone out of its way to keep details about Duran buried, claiming, among other things, to have destroyed her Mexico City P file.
https://aarclibrary.org/a-cruel-and-shocking-misinterpretation/
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Dan Hardaway on the Mexico City investigations:
https://aarclibrary.org/a-cruel-and-shocking-misinterpretation/
Hardway has stated (I'm not sure that he still believes this) that he believes the real Oswald did go to Mexico City but that he was ordered or instructed to do so by David Atlee Phillips. He argues that this was an effort by Phillips to "dangle" Oswald to the Cubans (for some unstated reason) but that he (Phillips) didn't know that two months later Oswald would be the accused assassin of the President.
However, Oswald's very odd behavior at both the Cuban consulate and Soviet Embassy weakens the "dangle" theory. Or does to me. Oswald acted so oddly and violently that the Cubans wanted nothing to do with him. In fact, Azcue said he thought Oswald was perhaps a provocateur. And the Soviets thought he was having some sort of nervous breakdown. This isn't the type of behavior, I don't think, you would engage in if you're trying to convince people that you're someone that can help them.
Hardway explained this in his review of the Veciana book: https://aarclibrary.org/a-professional-conspirator-questions-about-antonio-veciana-and-his-book-trained-to-kill/
Yes, he no longer believes, as he once did, that Veciana was truthful about seeing Phillips with Oswald (as he says in the above review). So I have no idea how he connects Phillips to Oswald. He does repeat the argument that the CIA was trying to discredit the FPCC and that Oswald may have been either a witting or unwitting participant in some sort of operation. It's all unclear to me what he believes. If Phillips ordered Oswald to MC then he wasn't an unwitting asset right? Frankly, he throws out a lot of claims - he clearly believes the CIA (or elements) were involved in the assassination - but his evidence for this is, for me, extremely weak.
The Contreras claims have been, in my view, completely disproven. As in: Contreras spoke no English; Oswald spoke little Spanish so how did they communicate? Furthermore, Contreras said in one interview that the meeting occurred in 1959 or 1969 1960 which was impossible because Oswald was still in the Soviet Union at that time. And Contreras said he wasn't living in Mexico City in 1963.
At to Duran: Duran said that she worked one week - the week of Oswald's visit - at the Cuban consulate. She had replaced the previous secretary who had been killed in a car accident and that she was a temporary replacement until the new replacement arrived from Cuban. The Friday that she met Oswald (I think it was definitely Oswald) was she said the last day she worked in that capacity. That's a helluva week of work. I hope she got a bonus. After 50 plus years there's been nothing for me indicating that she worked for the CIA.
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Hardway has stated (I'm not sure that he still believes this) that he believes the real Oswald did go to Mexico City but that he was ordered or instructed to do so by David Atlee Phillips. He argues that this was an effort by Phillips to "dangle" Oswald to the Cubans (for some unstated reason) but that he (Phillips) didn't know that two months later Oswald would be the accused assassin of the President. However, Oswald's very odd behavior at both the Cuban consulate and Soviet Embassy weakens that theory. Or does to me. Oswald acted so oddly and violently that the Cubans wanted nothing to do with him. Perhaps he wasn't following the script but I don't think you're going to act like that if you want to establish a relationship with them.
Oswald's mission was intended to fail. Who goes to an embassy on a weekend? Whomever Oswald was working with wanted the intelligence agencies in Mexico City to know he was there. That was the goal, not getting to Cuba.
He may have been an unwitting actor but I find it difficult to believe that he wouldn't have caught on to the possibility that he was being manipulated by his handlers.
Hardway explained this in his review of the Veciana book: https://aarclibrary.org/a-professional-conspirator-questions-about-antonio-veciana-and-his-book-trained-to-kill/
Yes, he no longer believes, as he once did, that Veciana was truthful about seeing Phillips with Oswald (as he says in the above review). So I have no idea how he connects Phillips to Oswald. He does repeat the argument that the CIA was trying to discredit the FPCC and that Oswald may have been either a witting or unwitting participant in some sort of operation. It's all unclear to me what he believes. If Phillips ordered Oswald to MC then he wasn't an unwitting asset right? Frankly, he throws out a lot of claims - he clearly believes the CIA (or elements) were involved in the assassination - but his evidence for this is, for me, extremely weak.
The attempts to discredit the FPCC did in fact happen and it's plausible that Oswald's weird FPCC/DRE stuff in the summer of 1963 was related to that program.
It's very plausible that both in 1959 and 1963, LHO had a relationship with US intelligence.
However, it's not clear that the New Orleans/Mexico City stuff was directly related to JFK's assassination.
It's just as plausible that Oswald both worked with Intelligence agents on some stuff but acted alone in JFK's assassination.
The attempts to paint Oswald as a deranged lunatic just don't match up with his behavior in Dallas.
For some reason, he decided to draw attention to himself while in Russia, New Orleans, and Mexico but almost always kept a low profile in Dallas. An unhinged lunatic wouldn't have that kind of discipline.