JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: Jerry Freeman on September 23, 2021, 02:40:08 AM
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Mr. STERN - Then you got inside the building and what did you do?
Mr. SORRELS - I asked for the manager, and I was directed to Mr. Truly. He was standing there.
I went up and identified myself to him. I said, "I want to get a stenographer, and we would like to have you put down the names and addresses of every employee of the building, in the building."
And I then walked on out the front door and asked, "Did anyone here see anything?"
And someone pointed to Mr. Brennan.
Who was that mysterious someone and how did they know about Brennan?
No biggie.
This subject was introduced recently in the Bus and Cab thread and was really off topic.
Based on this link... http://www.prayer-man.com/the-roll-call-inside-the-tsbd-never-happened/#lightbox[group]/0/
The only mention of a collection of TSBD names or a roll call of any sort contained in the Warren Report that has been advanced... is that of Secret Service special agent in charge Dallas Tx -Forrest Sorrels.
Other points...What ever happened to this request for a stenographer? It might be noted that Brennan could not positively identify Oswald in a line-up but yet the entire dragnet was based on his supposed description of Lee.
Mr. STERN - Mr. Sorrels, I would like to turn now to the morning of November 22 and get from you an account of what you observed as a passenger in the motorcade and thereafter.
In what car were you riding in the motorcade?
Mr. SORRELS - I was riding in what we call the lead car, which is the one immediately in front of the President's car.
Mr. STERN - What was your function in the lead car?
Mr. SORRELS - To be there with the special agent who had made the survey, and with the Chief of Police, and to observe the people and buildings as we drove along in the motorcade.
Sorrels was riding in the lead car and the lead car led JFK to the hospital. If he had seen what Brennan said he did...what could he have done about it?
Mr. STERN - And, at this point, you were not certain that the shots came from the Book Depository?
Mr. SORRELS - No; I didn't know at that time.
Mr. STERN - You just wanted to get to that general area?
Mr. SORRELS - Yes, sir; because I knew that there would be witnesses around there, there would have to be somebody in that vicinity.
And upon arrival at the Book Depository, I went in the back door.
There were people moving around.
I asked, "Where is the manager here?"
Mr. STERN - Just a minute.
How much time do you think elapsed from the time the shots were fired until the time you returned to the Book Depository?
Mr. SORRELS - I don't believe it could have been over about 20 minutes....
Mr. STERN - So you estimate not more than 20 minutes?
Mr. SORRELS - I don't believe it could have been more than 20 or 25 minutes at the very most.
This was six months after that day but the timing was very well rehearsed recalled. Why did Sorrels go to the back door? He said he didn't know where the shots came from until he talked to Brennan but he went to the back door of the building.
Let's say he didn't talk to Truly until about 1:00...How long would it have taken to compile this employee muster and bear in mind that there were other businesses besides the school book people......
Mr Sorrels - So I just waited there until Captain Fritz opened the door, and he had a man who I later found out to be Oswald in custody at the time.
I was informed that an FBI agent had called the office and said that Captain Fritz of the Homicide Bureau had been trying to get in touch with me, that he had a suspect in custody.
Mr. STERN - About what time was that?
Mr. SORRELS - That would be fairly close to 2 o'clock, I imagine.
Would have had to been quite some minutes after 2 as Lee was getting packed into a car around 2 PM [I imagine] Also, it seems that Sorrels got around about as lightning fast as did W R Westbrook and Hugh Aynesworth that day.
Mr Sorrels -And I told Captain Fritz, I said, "Captain, I would like to talk to this man when I have an opportunity."
He said, "You can talk to him right now.".......
And I started talking to Oswald, started asking him some questions, and he was arrogant and a belligerent attitude about him.
Of course he was belligerent...Oswald was a cold blooded murderer---But wait a second---Sorrels never mentioned that he had asked or even tried to find out just exactly what it was that Oswald was charged with? I guess Lee just looked like a cop killer and Sorrels got wise ::)
Mr Sorrels....And I think I asked him whether or not he had ever been in a foreign country and he said that he had traveled in Europe, but more time had been spent in the Soviet Union, as I recall it.
And then he just said "I don't care to answer any more questions."
And so the conversation was terminated.
Mr. STERN - Did he give you his address?
Mr. SORRELS - As I recall it, he did give me an address. I don't remember what it was offhand.
Yeah where were those damn stenographers? And what prompted Sorrels to ask Lee about his travels? He had just met him.
(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339642/m1/1/med_res/)
William Shelley [for some reason]"started checking around" MISSES Lee! Finds Truly and reports.
(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth340660/m1/1/med_res/)
Roy Truly [for some reason]"started checking around" MISSES Lee! Finds Shelley and reports.
:D Too rich
There was a list of employees it appears but could not possibly have been compiled before Oswald's arrest. So how come he was first on the list? I do not see a WC Exhibit # on this list. Why the check marks?
(https://i2.wp.com/www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Intelligence-Report-by-R.-W.-Westphal-to-Captain-W.-P.-Gannaway1.jpg?w=1500)
(https://i1.wp.com/www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Intelligence-Report-by-R.-W.-Westphal-to-Captain-W.-P.-Gannaway2.jpg?w=1500)
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
I've never been sure whether there was or wasn't an actual "roll call" of the TSBD warehouse employees, but in an interview conducted by Gary Mack in June of 2002, Buell Wesley Frazier said there definitely WAS a roll call of the Depository's warehouse employees shortly after the assassination, with names being READ OFF by someone. Here's what Frazier said in 2002:
BUELL WESLEY FRAZIER -- "Mr. Shelley got us together—he and Mr. Truly—and we had a roll call."
GARY MACK -- "And where did this take place?"
FRAZIER -- "Outside Mr. Shelley's office."
MACK -- "Did they actually read off names? Or did they just ask you guys, 'anybody missing'?"
FRAZIER -- "No, they read names off and you had to answer."
MACK -- "Okay. And who was missing?"
FRAZIER -- "The only person missing was Lee Oswald."
Who was the "someone" who read off the names if the warehouse employees were the only ones there? Why didn't they [Warren Commissioners] ask Wes Frazier who seemed to know? Harold Norman? Roy Truly? Bill Shelley? Charles Givens? Or some other warehouse employee?
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Who was that mysterious someone and how did they know about Brennan?
No biggie.
This subject was introduced recently in the Bus and Cab thread and was really off topic.
Based on this link... http://www.prayer-man.com/the-roll-call-inside-the-tsbd-never-happened/#lightbox[group]/0/
The only mention of a collection of TSBD names or a roll call of any sort contained in the Warren Report that has been advanced... is that of Secret Service special agent in charge Dallas Tx -Forrest Sorrels.
Other points...What ever happened to this request for a stenographer? It might be noted that Brennan could not positively identify Oswald in a line-up but yet the entire dragnet was based on his supposed description of Lee. Sorrels was riding in the lead car and the lead car led JFK to the hospital. If he had seen what Brennan said he did...what could he have done about it?This was six months after that day but the timing was very well rehearsed recalled. Why did Sorrels go to the back door? He said he didn't know where the shots came from until he talked to Brennan but he went to the back door of the building.
Let's say he didn't talk to Truly until about 1:00...How long would it have taken to compile this employee muster and bear in mind that there were other businesses besides the school book people......
Would have had to been quite some minutes after 2 as Lee was getting packed into a car around 2 PM [I imagine] Also, it seems that Sorrels got around about as lightning fast as did W R Westbrook and Hugh Aynesworth that day.Of course he was belligerent...Oswald was a cold blooded murderer---But wait a second---Sorrels never mentioned that he had asked or even tried to find out just exactly what it was that Oswald was charged with? I guess Lee just looked like a cop killer and Sorrels got wise ::)Yeah where were those damn stenographers? And what prompted Sorrels to ask Lee about his travels? He had just met him.
(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339642/m1/1/med_res/)
William Shelley [for some reason]"started checking around" MISSES Lee! Finds Truly and reports.
(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth340660/m1/1/med_res/)
Roy Truly [for some reason]"started checking around" MISSES Lee! Finds Shelley and reports.
:D Too rich
There was a list of employees it appears but could not possibly have been compiled before Oswald's arrest. So how come he was first on the list? I do not see a WC Exhibit # on this list. Why the check marks?
(https://i2.wp.com/www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Intelligence-Report-by-R.-W.-Westphal-to-Captain-W.-P.-Gannaway1.jpg?w=1500)
(https://i1.wp.com/www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Intelligence-Report-by-R.-W.-Westphal-to-Captain-W.-P.-Gannaway2.jpg?w=1500) Who was the "someone" who read off the names if the warehouse employees were the only ones there? Why didn't they [Warren Commissioners] ask Wes Frazier who seemed to know? Harold Norman? Roy Truly? Bill Shelley? Charles Givens? Or some other warehouse employee?
Trying to pick through this mess of an OP...
First up - Sorrels goes outside the front door and asks if anybody knows what going on and is pointed towards Brennan. It doesn't matter who pointed Brennan out to him (which is a genuinely stupid question), what matters is what time Brennan was stood out front. This would give us a good idea what time Sorrels actually got there and what time he asked Truly to get the names together.
Second point - The "someone" in Frazier's account of the roll call must've been Truly (doing what Sorrels asked him to do)
in the footage below can we see Brennan in the right hand image when the cop with the white cap moves up the steps at a time when Williams, Lovelady and Danny Arce are stood outside the building?
(https://i.postimg.cc/SxQPS0vZ/martinhughessynch100prkc9v.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
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Trying to pick through this mess of an OP...
First up - Sorrels goes outside the front door and asks if anybody knows what going on and is pointed towards Brennan. It doesn't matter who pointed Brennan out to him (which is a genuinely stupid question), what matters is what time Brennan was stood out front. This would give us a good idea what time Sorrels actually got there and what time he asked Truly to get the names together.
Second point - The "someone" in Frazier's account of the roll call must've been Truly (doing what Sorrels asked him to do)
in the footage below can we see Brennan in the right hand image when the cop with the white cap moves up the steps at a time when Williams, Lovelady and Danny Arce are stood outside the building?
Can't live without it huh? It doesn't matter who pointed Brennan out to him (which is a genuinely stupid question)
No it's not either-- why did you write that?... but I said no biggie didn't I?.First up - Sorrels goes outside the front door and asks if anybody knows what going on
Now that would have been a stupid question. But I don't think he really said that...'what's going on'? Sorrels went in the back and came out the front. Read it again. Doesn't say how he got back to the TSBD either [I guess because he wasn't asked]
The "someone" in Frazier's account of the roll call must've been Truly (doing what Sorrels asked him to do)
Frazier forgot Truly's name? :D
Sorrels SAID that he asked for a list of the entire building employees not just the warehouse.
in the footage below can we see Brennan in the right hand image when the cop with the white cap moves up the steps at a time when Williams, Lovelady and Danny Arce are stood outside the building?
So what? What does that have to do with Sorrels? What does that have to do with a roll call?
Quit chasing your tail...it's making you dizzy.
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Can't live without it huh?No it's not either-- why did you write that?... but I said no biggie didn't I? Now that would have been a stupid question. But I don't think he really said that...'what's going on'? Sorrels went in the back and came out the front. Read it again. Doesn't say how he got back to the TSBD either [I guess because he wasn't asked]Frazier forgot Truly's name? :D
Sorrels SAID that he asked for a list of the entire building employees not just the warehouse.So what? What does that have to do with Sorrels? What does that have to do with a roll call?
Quit chasing your tail...it's making you dizzy.
"Frazier forgot Truly's name? :D"
??
Read your own post. Frazier mentions Truly by name.
BUELL WESLEY FRAZIER -- "Mr. Shelley got us together—he and Mr. Truly—and we had a roll call."
GARY MACK -- "And where did this take place?"
FRAZIER -- "Outside Mr. Shelley's office."
MACK -- "Did they actually read off names? Or did they just ask you guys, 'anybody missing'?"
FRAZIER -- "No, they read names off and you had to answer."
MACK -- "Okay. And who was missing?"
FRAZIER -- "The only person missing was Lee Oswald."
To be honest, Frazier is so FoS it's hard to know what to make of this statement, only that it ties in with Truly being asked to get the names of the TSBD employees.
"So what? What does that have to do with Sorrels? What does that have to do with a roll call?"
What does Brennan stood out front have to do with Sorrels?
What does Bonnie Ray Williams, Billy Lovelady and Danny Arce stood out front have to do with the roll call?
::)
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Who was that mysterious someone and how did they know about Brennan?
No biggie.
This subject was introduced recently in the Bus and Cab thread and was really off topic.
Based on this link... http://www.prayer-man.com/the-roll-call-inside-the-tsbd-never-happened/#lightbox[group]/0/
The only mention of a collection of TSBD names or a roll call of any sort contained in the Warren Report that has been advanced... is that of Secret Service special agent in charge Dallas Tx -Forrest Sorrels.
Other points...What ever happened to this request for a stenographer? It might be noted that Brennan could not positively identify Oswald in a line-up but yet the entire dragnet was based on his supposed description of Lee. Sorrels was riding in the lead car and the lead car led JFK to the hospital. If he had seen what Brennan said he did...what could he have done about it?This was six months after that day but the timing was very well rehearsed recalled. Why did Sorrels go to the back door? He said he didn't know where the shots came from until he talked to Brennan but he went to the back door of the building.
Let's say he didn't talk to Truly until about 1:00...How long would it have taken to compile this employee muster and bear in mind that there were other businesses besides the school book people......
Would have had to been quite some minutes after 2 as Lee was getting packed into a car around 2 PM [I imagine] Also, it seems that Sorrels got around about as lightning fast as did W R Westbrook and Hugh Aynesworth that day.Of course he was belligerent...Oswald was a cold blooded murderer---But wait a second---Sorrels never mentioned that he had asked or even tried to find out just exactly what it was that Oswald was charged with? I guess Lee just looked like a cop killer and Sorrels got wise ::)Yeah where were those damn stenographers? And what prompted Sorrels to ask Lee about his travels? He had just met him.
(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339642/m1/1/med_res/)
William Shelley [for some reason]"started checking around" MISSES Lee! Finds Truly and reports.
(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth340660/m1/1/med_res/)
Roy Truly [for some reason]"started checking around" MISSES Lee! Finds Shelley and reports.
:D Too rich
There was a list of employees it appears but could not possibly have been compiled before Oswald's arrest. So how come he was first on the list? I do not see a WC Exhibit # on this list. Why the check marks?
(https://i2.wp.com/www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Intelligence-Report-by-R.-W.-Westphal-to-Captain-W.-P.-Gannaway1.jpg?w=1500)
(https://i1.wp.com/www.prayer-man.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Intelligence-Report-by-R.-W.-Westphal-to-Captain-W.-P.-Gannaway2.jpg?w=1500) Who was the "someone" who read off the names if the warehouse employees were the only ones there? Why didn't they [Warren Commissioners] ask Wes Frazier who seemed to know? Harold Norman? Roy Truly? Bill Shelley? Charles Givens? Or some other warehouse employee?
It might be noted that Brennan could not positively identify Oswald in a line-up but yet the entire dragnet was based on his supposed description of Lee.
This is a common statement from the LNer contingent......But that's not true.... The last sentence of Howard Brennan's sworn affidavit says..."I believe that I could identify this man if I ever saw him again" In his sworn affidavit Brennan had gave a good description of the man that he saw STANDING and aiming a rifle out of a TSBD window, so he definitely knew what the man looked like. Just a few hours after Brennan swore that he would be able to identify the man, he was taken to view a line up in which Lee Oswald was one of the men in the line up.
What he actually told the cops at the line up was the man was NOT there in the line up. But the cops wouldn't accept his statement and they started badgering and threatening him..... The cops asked Brennan how he could be sure that the man wasn't in the line up and Brennan replied that for one thing the man that he'd seen aiming the rifle was wearing KHAKI clothing. The Cops countered that Lee had changed his clothes in his room at the rooming house But they didn't bother to tell Brennan that Lee Oswald didn't have any khaki colored clothing.
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Again, it makes no apparent difference whether or not there was a roll call. Truly had encountered Oswald in the TSBD moments after the assassination. He did not see him around after the fact. So he knew Oswald was in the building during the assassination and appeared to be missing either because he just didn't see him around or there was a roll call. Sufficient grounds to note to the DPD without knowing if it was significant. It is silly to imply that Truly was somehow part of the conspiracy and in on it right from the start. Truly is the guy who allows Oswald to get out of the building under the nose of the police by vouching for him while Baker has a gun on Oswald. A perfect chance for the conspirators to have killed Oswald if Truly and Baker are in on the plot. They encounter Oswald acting suspiciously while trying to exit the building, he resists arrest and Baker shoots him in the struggle. A plausible scenario with no other witnesses to contradict. Case closed. No need for Ruby or risking that Oswald talks to the press.
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Again, it makes no apparent difference whether or not there was a roll call.
It is silly to imply that Truly was somehow part of the conspiracy and in on it right from the start. A perfect chance for the conspirators to have killed Oswald if Truly and Baker are in on the plot.
Again, it makes no apparent difference whether or not there was a roll call.
It is noted that in the final report summery a roll call was not mentioned.
It is silly to imply that Truly was somehow part of the conspiracy and in on it right from the start.
This was not 'implied' though the documents speak for themselves. I will qualify that by stating that I don't forward an opinion that Truly was "involved from the beginning". I could not base that belief on any fact.
A perfect chance for the conspirators to have killed Oswald if Truly and Baker are in on the plot.
Again that was not suggested. Stop inventing these claims.
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Again, it makes no apparent difference whether or not there was a roll call.
It is noted that in the final report summery a roll call was not mentioned.
It is silly to imply that Truly was somehow part of the conspiracy and in on it right from the start.
This was not 'implied' though the documents speak for themselves. I will qualify that by stating that I don't forward an opinion that Truly was "involved from the beginning". I could not base that belief on any fact.
A perfect chance for the conspirators to have killed Oswald if Truly and Baker are in on the plot.
Again that was not suggested. Stop inventing these claims.
I believe Roy Truly was a member of the minute men ..... and a phone call from the leader ( Walker) informing him that Lee Oswald was to be the scapegoat in the murder of JFK, would have been enough for Truly to have started the police after Lee Oswald.
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Again, it makes no apparent difference whether or not there was a roll call.
It is noted that in the final report summery a roll call was not mentioned.
It is silly to imply that Truly was somehow part of the conspiracy and in on it right from the start.
This was not 'implied' though the documents speak for themselves. I will qualify that by stating that I don't forward an opinion that Truly was "involved from the beginning". I could not base that belief on any fact.
A perfect chance for the conspirators to have killed Oswald if Truly and Baker are in on the plot.
Again that was not suggested. Stop inventing these claims.
If there is no claim that Truly had it out for Oswald as part of a conspiracy at the time Oswald's absence was noted, what difference does it make why he noted his absence to the DPD? We know that Oswald's absence was noticed. So what? He was gone. How could Truly not be involved from the beginning if his pointing toward Oswald's absence shortly after the assassination is evidence of his complicity in the conspiracy?
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... would have been enough for Truly to have started the police after Lee Oswald.
Nope..I thought we had agreed before ---the Fed deep state Kennedy hating insiders started the cops after Lee. Some of their allies were Kennedy hating cops. Truly as well as the Dallas law were stooges.
Henry Truly and Moe.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/S/aplus-media/vc/dea6b501-bbf6-43ac-9bc5-4118d0a9f2fb.__CR737,0,970,600_PT0_SX970_V1___.jpg)
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Nope..I thought we had agreed before ---the Fed deep state Kennedy hating insiders started the cops after Lee. Some of their allies were Kennedy hating cops. Truly as well as the Dallas law were stooges.
Henry Truly and Moe.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/S/aplus-media/vc/dea6b501-bbf6-43ac-9bc5-4118d0a9f2fb.__CR737,0,970,600_PT0_SX970_V1___.jpg)
I don't disagree that the Feds held the controls....But Fritz needed someone to put him after Lee Oswald..... He may have known that Lee was to be set up as the patsy....But he couldn't simply go after Lee Oswald with no evidence that Lee had done anything illegal..... He needed Roy Truly to give him a suspect.......
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How could Truly not be involved from the beginning if his pointing toward Oswald's absence shortly after the assassination is evidence of his complicity in the conspiracy?
How could he have been involved from the beginning of what? I would say that he was caught up in and became involved in the middle of this.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got back to the first floor, or what did you see?
Mr. TRULY. When I got back to the first floor, at first I didn't see anything except officers running around, reporters in the place. There was a regular madhouse.....Then in a few minutes--it could have been moments or minutes at a time like that--I noticed some of my boys were over in the west corner of the shipping department, and there were several officers over there taking their names and addresses, and so forth.......
I noticed that Lee Oswald was not among these boys.
So I picked up the telephone and called Mr. Aiken down at the other warehouse who keeps our application blanks.
First I mentioned to Mr. Campbell--I asked Bill Shelley if he had seen him, he looked around and said no.
Mr. BELIN. When you asked Bill Shelley if he had seen whom?
Mr. TRULY. Lee Oswald. I said, "Have you seen him around lately," and he said no.
So Mr. Campbell is standing there, and I said, "I have a boy over here missing. I don't know whether to report it or not. Because I had another one or two out then.I didn't know whether they were all there or not. He said, "What do you think"? And I got to thinking. He said, "Well, we better do it anyway." It was so quick after that.
Can we see the contradictions? "It was a regular madhouse" Truly said he noticed Oswald was not among the help. He also said there were others who were also not among his warehouse guys. Who were they? Didn't matter... Truly starts juggling names. He said that he called this Mr Aiken who keeps the application [blanks?]. Why would he do that right then?-- "Campbell was standing there'' Who was Campbell...Truly's shadow? His chief yes man? Ask Mr Campbell if I didn't ask Mr Shelley Did Shelley really look around- or did he you know..look around? :-\
Mr. BELIN. When you asked Bill Shelley if he had seen whom?
That was an ass question but Belin wanted to ice the record.
Truly stated that he did not know "whether to report it [about Oswald] or not"...Then why had he already called this Aiken from the other warehouse? To repeat--he said that some other warehouse guys were also missing...even though it was a 'regular madhouse' and who would want to be there anyway?
Commission testimony was taken months into the following year. No doubt-- though Truly was summarily rehearsed on what to say... it still seemed quite convoluted [like several other witnesses' accounts]
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How could he have been involved from the beginning of what? I would say that he was caught up in and became involved in the middle of this.
Can we see the contradictions? "It was a regular madhouse" Truly said he noticed Oswald was not among the help. He also said there were others who were also not among his warehouse guys. Who were they? Didn't matter... Truly starts juggling names. He said that he called this Mr Aiken who keeps the application [blanks?]. Why would he do that right then?-- "Campbell was standing there'' Who was Campbell...Truly's shadow? His chief yes man? Ask Mr Campbell if I didn't ask Mr Shelley Did Shelley really look around- or did he you know..look around? :-\
Mr. BELIN. When you asked Bill Shelley if he had seen whom?
That was an ass question but Belin wanted to ice the record.
Truly stated that he did not know "whether to report it [about Oswald] or not"...Then why had he already called this Aiken from the other warehouse? To repeat--he said that some other warehouse guys were also missing...even though it was a 'regular madhouse' and who would want to be there anyway?
Commission testimony was taken months into the following year. No doubt-- though Truly was summarily rehearsed on what to say... it still seemed quite convoluted [like several other witnesses' accounts]
Truly's account of his reason for putting the finger on Lee Oswald simply reeks of BS..... His account is incredible and unreal....particularly since he had seen Lee calmly drinking a coke in the lunchroom less than a half hour earlier. There simply was no good reason to lie and tell Fritz that Lee Oswald was the only person missing.
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Again, it makes no apparent difference whether or not there was a roll call. Truly had encountered Oswald in the TSBD moments after the assassination.
True------------at the front door. (Congratulations BTW on your uncharacteristically CORRECT use of the word 'moments'!)
He did not see him around after the fact. So he knew Oswald was in the building during the assassination and appeared to be missing either because he just didn't see him around or there was a roll call. Sufficient grounds to note to the DPD without knowing if it was significant. It is silly to imply that Truly was somehow part of the conspiracy and in on it right from the start.
It's perfectly rational to suspect Mr Truly-------------after all, he assured Officer Baker that the man just caught walking away from the rear stairway on the third or fourth floor was an employee
Truly is the guy who allows Oswald to get out of the building under the nose of the police by vouching for him while Baker has a gun on Oswald.
Except................ that man wasn't Mr Oswald!
A perfect chance for the conspirators to have killed Oswald if Truly and Baker are in on the plot.
Officer Baker is NOT in on the plot
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How could he have been involved from the beginning of what? I would say that he was caught up in and became involved in the middle of this.
Can we see the contradictions? "It was a regular madhouse" Truly said he noticed Oswald was not among the help. He also said there were others who were also not among his warehouse guys. Who were they? Didn't matter... Truly starts juggling names. He said that he called this Mr Aiken who keeps the application [blanks?]. Why would he do that right then?-- "Campbell was standing there'' Who was Campbell...Truly's shadow? His chief yes man? Ask Mr Campbell if I didn't ask Mr Shelley Did Shelley really look around- or did he you know..look around? :-\
Mr. BELIN. When you asked Bill Shelley if he had seen whom?
That was an ass question but Belin wanted to ice the record.
Truly stated that he did not know "whether to report it [about Oswald] or not"...Then why had he already called this Aiken from the other warehouse? To repeat--he said that some other warehouse guys were also missing...even though it was a 'regular madhouse' and who would want to be there anyway?
Commission testimony was taken months into the following year. No doubt-- though Truly was summarily rehearsed on what to say... it still seemed quite convoluted [like several other witnesses' accounts]
Question! If Mr Oswald is noted missing, WHO is gonna be the obvious person to ask if they know anything about his whereabouts?
Answer! Mr Buell Wesley Frazier
Question! Is Mr Frazier asked?
Answer! No
Question! Does Mr Frazier mention to anyone 'I saw Lee walking away from the Houston St side of the Depository a few minutes ago'?
Answer! No
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Mr. Ball. Did they ask you where you had been at the time the President passed?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir; they had. I told them I was out on the steps there.
Mr. Ball. Asked you who you were with?
Mr. Frazier. Yes, sir; I told them and naturally Mr. Shelley and Billy vouched for me and so they didn't think anything about it.
So now the 'roll call' includes a requirement to provide a verified alibi for the time of the shooting.
Question! Why was Mr Jack Dougherty not arrested as a prime suspect?
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Mr. Ball. At that time didn't you know that one of your officers, Baker, had seen Oswald on the second floor?
Mr. Fritz. They told me about that down at the bookstore; I believe Mr. Truly or someone told me about it, told me they had met him--I think he told me, person who told me about, I believe told me that they met him on the stairway, but our investigation shows that he actually saw him in a lunchroom...
Captain Fritz gets noticeably flustered here!
What he's actually letting slip is something quite starling: he was told one thing down at the bookstore ("they met him on the stairway"), but upon further investigation it turned out that the location was quite a different place ("in a lunchroom").
In other words: the story he was told by "Mr. Truly or someone" was not the lunchroom story.
ON THE STAIRWAY: These words confirm that Officer Baker's affidavit description of a "man walking away from the stairway" was in fact a description of a man caught walking away from the stairway---------a stairway he had evidently been in the process of descending. There is simply no way to reconcile this with the lunchroom story later told by Officer Baker.
Now! We know from Tom Alyea's footage that Officer Baker-----------contrary to his WC testimony-----------did NOT leave the Depository immediately after coming back downstairs with Mr Truly:
(https://i.imgur.com/xrBzXTn.jpg)
Did Officer Baker tell other law enforcement at this time that he saw nothing upstairs, aside from an employee who was walking away from the stairway?
If so, did word of this reach Captain Fritz when HE arrived at the Depository?
Did Captain Fritz ask Mr Truly about this?
Did Mr Truly decide, in panic, to explain away the non-employee caught walking away from the rear stairway by saying, 'Oh yes, that was one of our men, Lee Oswald'?
Was this, rather than any roll call, the real reason Mr Oswald was singled out by Mr Truly?
If so, then it was a high-risk piece of escapology on Mr Truly's part. And it very nearly exploded in his face. For word had got around that he and the officer had in fact encountered Mr Oswald at the front door----------------indeed, DPD would soon be telling the press all about this!
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Roy Truly was recalled by the Commission. Incidentally..he [apparently] did not verify Oswald's application for employment---
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/pdf/WH17_CE_496.pdf
Note some falsities on that.
Joe Ball took the assignment.....
Mr. BALL. Before the assassination, was there any other occasion besides the one we are inquiring about, when you saw guns in the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. TRULY. Never.
Mr. BALL. On November 20, 1963, you saw two guns owned by Mr. Warren Caster.....
Why did Truly say that he had never see guns in his building- before they had carried the suspect rifle out?
When just two days before ..he was playing mighty hunter with his buddy---inspecting a Mauser and a .22 [not described in testimony]
Also Truly did not recall Oswald being present when it was Lee who told the cops that he was!
Odd isn't it that Truly didn't see Oswald when he was present but missed him when he wasn't?-------
Mr. BALL. Who else was there besides you and Mr. Caster?
Mr. TRULY. Well, the only person I can recall being there was Mr. Shelley.
Mr. BALL. Now, what did you tell Chief Lumpkin when you came down from the roof of the building?
Mr. TRULY. When I noticed this boy was missing, I told Chief Lumpkin that "We have a man here that's missing." I said, "It may not mean anything, but he isn't here." I first called down to the other warehouse and had Mr. Akin pull the application of the boy so I could get--quickly get his address in Irving and his general description, so I could be more accurate than I would be.
That's NOT exactly what he stated at his previous testimony but then he had a refresher to smooth out the yarn account.
Mr. BALL. All right. Now, was it before or after you told Captain Fritz the name and address of Lee Oswald, that you learned that the rifle was found?
Mr. TRULY. I can't remember, I believe it was afterwards.
Mr. BALL. You are sure it was after you told Captain Fritz---after what, you tell me?
Mr. TRULY. I told--well, when Chief Lumpkin and I went to the sixth floor, Captain Fritz was standing in ,the area where I later learned they had found the gun, and Chief Lumpkin told Captain Fritz that Mr. Truly had something to tell him, which I would like to tell him, so he stepped over 4 or 5 feet to where I was, away from the other men---officers and reporters, I would say, that were on the floor, and I repeated the words to Captain Fritz.
Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?
Mr. TRULY. I told him that we had a man missing---I told him what his name was and his Irving address and he said, "All right, thank you, Mr. Truly. We will get right on it,"
Mr. BALL. Was he the only man missing?
Mr. TRULY. The only one I noticed at that time.
We'll get right on it ::)
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Mr. Ball. At that time didn't you know that one of your officers, Baker, had seen Oswald on the second floor?
Mr. Fritz. They told me about that down at the bookstore; I believe Mr. Truly or someone told me about it, told me they had met him--I think he told me, person who told me about, I believe told me that they met him on the stairway, but our investigation shows that he actually saw him in a lunchroom...
Captain Fritz gets noticeably flustered here!
What he's actually letting slip is something quite starling: he was told one thing down at the bookstore ("they met him on the stairway"), but upon further investigation it turned out that the location was quite a different place ("in a lunchroom").
In other words: the story he was told by "Mr. Truly or someone" was not the lunchroom story.
Now! We know from Tom Alyea's footage that Officer Baker-----------contrary to his WC testimony-----------did NOT leave the Depository immediately after coming back downstairs with Mr Truly:
(https://i.imgur.com/xrBzXTn.jpg)
Did Officer Baker tell other law enforcement at this time that he saw nothing upstairs, aside from an employee who walking away from the stairway?
If so, did word of this reach Captain Fritz when HE arrived at the Depository?
Did Captain Fritz ask Mr Truly about this?
Did Mr Truly decide, in panic, to explain away the non-employee caught walking away from the rear stairway by saying, 'Oh yes, that was one of our men, Lee Oswald'?
Was this, rather than any roll call, the real reason Mr Oswald was singled out by Mr Truly?
If so, then it was a high-risk piece of escapology on Mr Truly's part. And it very nearly exploded in his face. For word had got around that he and the officer had in fact encountered Mr Oswald at the front door----------------indeed, DPD would soon be telling the press all about this!
(https://i.imgur.com/xrBzXTn.jpg)
If anybody wants to see a picture of the epitome of " a very worried man"...... Look at Roy Truly in this photo.....
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Let's continue this segment of Captain Fritz's WC testimony----------------
Mr. Ball. Did you question Oswald about that?
Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir; I asked him about that and he knew that the officer stopped him all right.
Mr. Ball. Did you ask him what he was doing in the lunchroom?
Mr. Fritz. He said he was having his lunch. He had a cheese sandwich and a Coca-Cola.
Mr. Ball. Did he tell you he was up there to get a Coca-Cola?
Mr. Fritz. He said he had a Coca-Cola.
Captain Fritz's responses are a masterclass in jesuitical evasion! He manages to answer Mr Ball's questions here WITHOUT telling a straight lie:
-Yes, Mr Oswald knew that the officer 'stopped' him (but NB! the lunchroom story does NOT involve Mr Oswald's being 'stopped')
-Yes, Mr Oswald did talk about going to the lunchroom
-Yes, Mr Oswald did say he had a Coca-Cola WHEN THE OFFICER 'STOPPED' HIM (at the front entrance), and Captain Fritz takes care NOT to say that yes, Mr Oswald said he was "up there" in the lunchroom when the officer stopped him------------he merely had the Coke which he HAD EARLIER BOUGHT up there in his hand and had since come downstairs.
What we're seeing here is the true role of the final version of the lunchroom fiction: to have a MOBILE Mr Oswald challenged; to involve a COKE; to get Mr Oswald AWAY from the front entrance seconds after the shooting; to make the NON-EMPLOYEE caught walking away from the rear stairway on the third or fourth floor disappear
Postscript!
As late as 23 December, Captain Fritz STILL believed what he had been told initially at the Depository: a suspicious employee was caught on the rear stairway by Officer Baker...............
(https://i.imgur.com/4QXSptm.jpg)
"Our investigation"----------the one that showed it ACTUALLY happened in the lunchroom-----------must have been pretty darned slow. Captain Fritz is STILL going by what "Mr Truly or somebody" told him 11/22/63 in the Depository! :D
-
(https://i.imgur.com/xrBzXTn.jpg)
If anybody wants to see a picture of the epitome of " a very worried man"...... Look at Roy Truly in this photo.....
Indeed------------Officer Baker may well be telling the others the one noteworthy piece of information he has:
We came across a guy walking away from the back stairs on the third or fourth floor, but I cut him loose when this gentleman here told me he worked here................
-
If so, then it was a high-risk piece of escapology on Mr Truly's part. And it very nearly exploded in his face. For word had got around that he and the officer had in fact encountered Mr Oswald at the front door----------------indeed, DPD would soon be telling the press all about this!
Question!
Why didn't Mr Truly just stick with the story that the man caught walking away from the rear stairway on the third or fourth floor was Mr Oswald?
Answer!
Because he soon KNEW that word of Mr Oswald's encounter with the cop at the front entrance HAD GOTTEN OUT. The lunchroom was now the ONLY viable location for a fictional encounter because it allowed for TWO very different scenarios:
a) Mr Oswald shot JFK and hurried downstairs to the lunchroom
b) Mr Oswald was out front for the P. Parade and hurried upstairs to the lunchroom
Mr Truly (and Officer Baker, for that matter) needed INSURANCE in case undeniable proof of b) emerged in the coming days...........
That Mr Oswald's claim to have gone "outside to watch P. Parade" be suppressed from the official record, and that any witness apt to confirm his presence on those steps (starting with Mr Frazier and Mr Molina and Mr Shelley and Mr Lovelady) be pressurized into silence, thus became a matter of HIGHEST priority
Thumb1:
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Roy Truly provided a hand written undated statement.
A higher quality view can be seen here----
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338979/m1/1/
(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338979/m1/1/med_res/)(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338979/m1/3/small_res/)(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338979/m1/5/small_res/)
I am still searching for a mention of a roll call. The belief is that Oswald was not present at this alleged roster and therefore a hunt for him was instituted.
It is now quite apparent that the search for Oswald was spontaneous.
(https://images.findagrave.com/photos250/photos/2018/84/93499905_a96e1c52-b68a-4de2-8cfb-f4b0cfc3b66b.jpeg)
Roy S Truly
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Roy Truly provided a hand written undated statement.
Yes, this is written on the SaPersonay. At the bottom of the last page is written 'Mrs Reed': the woman (actually Reid) who worked directly under Mr Truly and would be brought in that same day to bolster his lunchroom fiction
I am still searching for a mention of a roll call. The belief is that Oswald was not present at this alleged roster and therefore a hunt for him was instituted.
It is now quite apparent that the search for Oswald was spontaneous.
If Mr Oswald's name was dropped by Mr Truly in order to explain away the 'employee' caught walking away from the rear stairway on the third or fourth floor, then the need to later pretend that it was a roll call that quickly identified Mr Oswald as uniquely missing and suspicious is explained. A story was required that made Mr Truly's singling out of Mr Oswald seem innocent
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IF-------------------as I suspect------------------this man was the man caught by Officer Baker walking away from the rear stairway on the third or fourth floor................
(https://i.imgur.com/5wYBomS.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/agEx0ab.jpg)
...................THEN Mr Truly had reasonable expectation of getting away with his desperate substitution of him with Mr Oswald. The physical resemblance to Mr Oswald would be strong enough to fool Officer Baker in retrospect-------------and who was going to doubt Mr Truly's identification of one of his own employees?
Thumb1:
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Let's continue this segment of Captain Fritz's WC testimony----------------
Mr. Ball. Did you question Oswald about that?
Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir; I asked him about that and he knew that the officer stopped him all right.
Mr. Ball. Did you ask him what he was doing in the lunchroom?
Mr. Fritz. He said he was having his lunch. He had a cheese sandwich and a Coca-Cola.
Mr. Ball. Did he tell you he was up there to get a Coca-Cola?
Mr. Fritz. He said he had a Coca-Cola.
Captain Fritz's responses are a masterclass in jesuitical evasion! He manages to answer Mr Ball's questions here WITHOUT telling a straight lie:
-Yes, Mr Oswald knew that the officer 'stopped' him (but NB! the lunchroom story does NOT involve Mr Oswald's being 'stopped')
-Yes, Mr Oswald did talk about going to the lunchroom
-Yes, Mr Oswald did say he had a Coca-Cola WHEN THE OFFICER 'STOPPED' HIM (at the front entrance), and Captain Fritz takes care NOT to say that yes, Mr Oswald said he was "up there" in the lunchroom when the officer stopped him------------he merely had the Coke which he HAD EARLIER BOUGHT up there in his hand and had since come downstairs.
What we're seeing here is the true role of the final version of the lunchroom fiction: to have a MOBILE Mr Oswald challenged; to involve a COKE; to get Mr Oswald AWAY from the front entrance seconds after the shooting; to make the NON-EMPLOYEE caught walking away from the rear stairway on the third or fourth floor disappear
Postscript!
As late as 23 December, Captain Fritz STILL believed what he had been told initially at the Depository: a suspicious employee was caught on the rear stairway by Officer Baker...............
(https://i.imgur.com/4QXSptm.jpg)
"Our investigation"----------the one that showed it ACTUALLY happened in the lunchroom-----------must have been pretty darned slow. Captain Fritz is STILL going by what "Mr Truly or somebody" told him 11/22/63 in the Depository! :D
Mr Oswald did say he had a Coca-Cola WHEN THE OFFICER 'STOPPED' HIM (at the front entrance),
Please post the information that Oswald said the officer STOPPEDHIM....
Fritz asked Lee:... "Where he was when the police officer stopped him. And Fritz said that Lee replied...that he was on the second floor drinking a Coca Cola when the officer came in . "....(page 600 WR)
Lee told Fritz that he was ON THE SECOND FLOOR drinking a Coca Cola when the officer came in.....
It can't get any clearer than that Mr Ford.......
-
Roy Truly provided a hand written undated statement.
A higher quality view can be seen here----
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338979/m1/1/
(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338979/m1/1/med_res/)(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338979/m1/3/small_res/)(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338979/m1/5/small_res/)
I am still searching for a mention of a roll call. The belief is that Oswald was not present at this alleged roster and therefore a hunt for him was instituted.
It is now quite apparent that the search for Oswald was spontaneous.
(https://images.findagrave.com/photos250/photos/2018/84/93499905_a96e1c52-b68a-4de2-8cfb-f4b0cfc3b66b.jpeg)
Roy S Truly
the search for Oswald was spontaneous.
"Spontaneous".....As easily ignited... And that's good description for what Roy Truly did....He ignited the raging fire to fry Lee Oswald....