JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: Walt Cakebread on October 26, 2021, 08:40:14 PM
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There are many DPD photos and FBI photos that clearly show that the DPD released TWO spent 6.5mm spent shells to the FBI at midnight 11/22/63. Is it a fact that that Captain Fritz on record as saying that he kept one of the 6.5 shells, so that would indicate that the the FBI received only TWO 6.5 shells. Fritz also testified that he kept a live 6.5 carcano round ....
Why wasn't Fritz charged with, withholding evidence in a capital murder case?
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They were under no obligation to turn anything over to the FBI, who had no jurisdiction in the case.
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They were under no obligation to turn anything over to the FBI, who had no jurisdiction in the case.
LBJ Called Curry and told him that he was putting the FBI in charge....
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LBJ Called Curry and told him that he was putting the FBI in charge....
I doubt that. And he had no legal authority to do that if he wanted to. The Dallas authorities had jurisdiction. They elected to cooperate and sent the FBI what they asked for, with the understanding that the items would be returned to the DPD within a day or two.
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I doubt that. And he had no legal authority to do that if he wanted to. The Dallas authorities had jurisdiction. They elected to cooperate and sent the FBI what they asked for, with the understanding that the items would be returned to the DPD within a day or two.
Are you aware that LBJ and Curry had an alliance? LBJ refused to cooperate with he Secret Service and he had Chief Curry transport him from Parkland to the airport. Nobody knows what Curry and LBJ talked about during that trip.
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Are you aware that LBJ and Curry had an alliance? LBJ refused to cooperate with he Secret Service and he had Chief Curry transport him from Parkland to the airport. Nobody knows what Curry and LBJ talked about during that trip.
Why are you trying to implicate President Johnson of some sinister plot when he wanted to know about Kennedy's condition before he left the hospital?
In the hospital, Johnson was surrounded by Secret Service agents, who encouraged him to return to Washington in case he too was targeted for assassination. Johnson wished to wait until he knew of Kennedy's condition; at 1:20 pm, he was told Kennedy was dead and left the hospital almost 20 minutes later.
At this point arrangements were made to provide Secret Service protection of the two Johnson daughters (Lynda Bird Johnson Robb and Luci Baines Johnson), and it was decided that the new president would leave on the presidential aircraft because it had better communications equipment. Johnson was driven by an unmarked police car to Dallas Love Field, and kept below the car's window level throughout the journey.
The President waited for Jacqueline Kennedy, who in turn would not leave Dallas without her husband's body, to arrive aboard Air Force One. Kennedy's casket was finally brought to the aircraft, but takeoff was delayed until Johnson took the oath of office.
https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report
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Imagine the FBI being interested and asked to assist in the investigation of the murder of the President! Shocking. It can only mean a conspiracy. I guess there are no other examples in law enforcement history where the FBI has rendered assistance to local law enforcement agencies in investigating crimes over which they have no direct jurisdiction. Or this would be an entirely idiotic claim to raise. Of course, the FBI has expertise that they often share with local law enforcement agencies even for crimes over which the FBI has no direct jurisdiction. "Jurisdiction" is over who has ultimate legal responsibility to prosecute someone for the crime. It does not exclude the FBI or anyone from assisting in the investigation. To even imply that this is somehow sinister or unique is laughable. This is as tired a rehash as the "red rings" discussion. Find some new material or get a new hobby. Maybe UFOs.
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Strawman "Smith" strikes again. Nobody argued that the FBI "assisting" could only mean conspiracy.
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Imagine the FBI being interested and asked to assist in the investigation of the murder of the President! Shocking. It can only mean a conspiracy. I guess there are no other examples in law enforcement history where the FBI has rendered assistance to local law enforcement agencies in investigating crimes over which they have no direct jurisdiction. Or this would be an entirely idiotic claim to raise. Of course, the FBI has expertise that they often share with local law enforcement agencies even for crimes over which the FBI has no direct jurisdiction. "Jurisdiction" is over who has ultimate legal responsibility to prosecute someone for the crime. It does not exclude the FBI or anyone from assisting in the investigation. To even imply that this is somehow sinister or unique is laughable. This is as tired a rehash as the "red rings" discussion. Find some new material or get a new hobby. Maybe UFOs.
The question is: How many 6.5 mm shells were in evidence on the evening of 11/22/63??
That's not a difficult question....
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The question is: How many 6.5 mm shells were in evidence on the evening of 11/22/63??
That's not a difficult question....
Define what you mean by “in evidence.” I think that it typically refers to the proceedings of a court of law in which items are entered into evidence by following the applicable rules of evidence. And on the evening of 11/22/63 the case was under investigation and far from the point in time when evidence would have been entered into the court records. So your question makes no sense. I object, and think that you need to rephrase the question…
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Define what you mean by “in evidence.” I think that it typically refers to the proceedings of a court of law in which items are entered into evidence by following the applicable rules of evidence. And on the evening of 11/22/63 the case was under investigation and far from the point in time when evidence would have been entered into the court records. So your question makes no sense. I object, and think that you need to rephrase the question…
Don't be so stupid!.... You know very well what is meant by evidence. How many spent 6.5 shells were in evidence on the evening of 11/22/63?
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Don't be so stupid!.... You know very well what is meant by evidence. How many spent 6.5 shells were in evidence on the evening of 11/22/63?
Define “in evidence.” WTF are you asking exactly?
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Only two spent shells were handed over to the FBI at that time. Fritz supposedly kept one in his office for "comparison tests". But he didn't tell that story until June, 1964.
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Only two spent shells were handed over to the FBI at that time. Fritz supposedly kept one in his office for "comparison tests". But he didn't tell that story until June, 1964.
Only two spent shells were handed over to the FBI at that time.
Thank you for the candid answer. And by the definition of "at that time" you're referring to "on the evening of 11/22/63, isn't that correct?.
There are many photos that were taken on 11/22/63 which show that there were only two spent shells. A copy of an evidence photo that we've all seen, and is well known, shows the blanket at the right side of the photo, the 38 caliber S&W revolver in the center of the photo and a large brown paper bag stretching across the middle of the photo . In the lower left corner there is TWO spent rifle shells lying on the evidence envelope in which they had been placed in when they were found beneath the SE corner window. ( the top of the evidence envelope has been torn off and there is some faint writing on the envelope)
I believe that every intelligent and alert researcher has seen this evidence photo. It is printed on page 88 of DPD Chief Jesse Curry's book " JFK Assassination File" And Curry has labeled the TWO spent shells as item #1 in the photo. He identifies item #1 as " TWO 6.5mm Mannlicher Carcano cartridge cases found in the book depository building "
The original evidence list that was created to verify the evidence that was being released to the FBI at midnight 11/22/63. listed item number nine on the list is; ---Quote--" 6.5 spent rounds (2)-- unquote
Although there is no date on the evidence list, this listing is verification that the list was created on the evening of 11/22/63.
Item # 14 on this original list lists the so called "palm print" as one of the items being released to the FBI.
Item #14 says...quote --- 1 Partial palm print "off underside gun barrel near end of foregrip" on rifle c2766 ---unquote
What more proof do you need to understand that the so called "palm print" was in fact turned over to the FBI at midnight 11/22/63 ???
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Only two spent shells were handed over to the FBI at that time.
Thank you for the candid answer. And by the definition of "at that time" you're referring to "on the evening of 11/22/63, isn't that correct?.
There are many photos that were taken on 11/22/63 which show that there were only two spent shells. A copy of an evidence photo that we've all seen, and is well known, shows the blanket at the right side of the photo, the 38 caliber S&W revolver in the center of the photo and a large brown paper bag stretching across the middle of the photo . In the lower left corner there is TWO spent rifle shells lying on the evidence envelope in which they had been placed in when they were found beneath the SE corner window. ( the top of the evidence envelope has been torn off and there is some faint writing on the envelope)
I believe that every intelligent and alert researcher has seen this evidence photo. It is printed on page 88 of DPD Chief Jesse Curry's book " JFK Assassination File" And Curry has labeled the TWO spent shells as item #1 in the photo. He identifies item #1 as " TWO 6.5mm Mannlicher Carcano cartridge cases found in the book depository building "
The original evidence list that was created to verify the evidence that was being released to the FBI at midnight 11/22/63. listed item number nine on the list is; ---Quote--" 6.5 spent rounds (2)-- unquote
Although there is no date on the evidence list, this listing is verification that the list was created on the evening of 11/22/63.
Item # 14 on this original list lists the so called "palm print" as one of the items being released to the FBI.
Item #14 says...quote --- 1 Partial palm print "off underside gun barrel near end of foregrip" on rifle c2766 ---unquote
What more proof do you need to understand that the so called "palm print" was in fact turned over to the FBI at midnight 11/22/63 ???
Although there is no date on the evidence list, this listing is verification that the list was created on the evening of 11/22/63.
Verification would be something more than your opinion that because a list exists means that it was created on a specific date.
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Only two spent shells were handed over to the FBI at that time.
Thank you for the candid answer. And by the definition of "at that time" you're referring to "on the evening of 11/22/63, isn't that correct?.
Yes, and all the way up to the 27th.
Although there is no date on the evidence list, this listing is verification that the list was created on the evening of 11/22/63.
No, it's not verification at all. You don't know when that list was created, or for what purpose.
What more proof do you need to understand that the so called "palm print" was in fact turned over to the FBI at midnight 11/22/63 ???
Actual evidence rather than a Walt assumption and story.
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Yes, and all the way up to the 27th.
No, it's not verification at all. You don't know when that list was created, or for what purpose.
Actual evidence rather than a Walt assumption and story.
You are aware that the FBI lab in Washington received evidence 0n the morning of 11/23/63 aren't you??
Are you proposing that the DPD simply let the FBI take that evidence with no record, or documentation that the DPD had gave that evidence to the FBI?
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You are aware that the FBI lab in Washington received evidence 0n the morning of 11/23/63 aren't you??
Are you proposing that the DPD simply let the FBI take that evidence with no record, or documentation that the DPD had gave that evidence to the FBI?
They very well may have. It's not like they were diligent about evidence handling and documentation. But the point remains that there is no reason to think that this particular list was written that night or accompanied the first release of evidence to the FBI.
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Yes, and all the way up to the 27th.
No, it's not verification at all. You don't know when that list was created, or for what purpose.
Actual evidence rather than a Walt assumption and story.
Thank you for the candid answer. And by the definition of "at that time" you're referring to "on the evening of 11/22/63, isn't that correct?.
Yes, and all the way up to the 27th.
Yes, you're right there was an evidence inventory list compiled for the evidence that was released to the FBI on 11/22/63, and that original list was used for the list that was created on 11/ 27. The clerk merely used a photocopy of the list that was created on 11/22/ and altered that original list to include items that the authorities wanted added or deleted. One of the items that the authorities wanted altered was the number of spent 6.5 shells. The original list from 11/22 indicated that there were only two spent shells, but they whited out that numeral "2" and changed it to a "3" .
They admitted altering the list in the # 6 Item # 6 on the original list simply said " 1 .38 cal pistol, 2" barrel "
The altered list added information to item #6 ....It says Quote " 1 .38 cal pistol, 2" barrel, S&W, Rev. sand blast finish, brown wooden handles, ser. # 510210 . Released to FBI agent 11-22-63 and again on 11-26-63 unquote.
Since the original list of evidence that was being released to the FBI listed item # 6 as "1 .38 cal pistol , 2" barrel "
And the altered list verified that this first release of the S&W pistol occurred on 11/ 22 /63 then it should be obvious that the original list was created on 11/22/63. And that index card with the " partial palm print " off underside of gun barrel near end of fore grip on rifle C 2766" is listed on the original list, then it's clear that the DPD did IN FACT release the index card to the FBI on 11 / 22 /63.
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Yes, you're right there was an evidence inventory list compiled for the evidence that was released to the FBI on 11/22/63, and that original list was used for the list that was created on 11/ 27. The clerk merely used a photocopy of the list that was created on 11/22/ and altered that original list to include items that the authorities wanted added or deleted. One of the items that the authorities wanted altered was the number of spent 6.5 shells. The original list from 11/22 indicated that there were only two spent shells, but they whited out that numeral "2" and changed it to a "3" .
There you go again. You don't know when the second list was created either.
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There you go again. You don't know when the second list was created either.
Released to FBI agent 11-22-63 and again on 11-26-63
The DPD reported that they released the .38 caliber S&W revolver to the FBI on 11 /22 /63.....And it definitely is listed on the list that reveals that they didn't know that the "Italian rifle " they had found on the sixth floor of the TSBD was commonly known as a "CARCANO CARBINE"
On SaPersonay 11/23/63 they learned that the "Italian rifle" was commonly known as a carcano carbine. But they didn't have that information on 11/22/63, so they simply referred to it as;---"Italian make, 6.5 rifle"
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There is absolutely nothing about either list that indicates that they accompanied the release of evidence to the FBI or when they were written.
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There is absolutely nothing about either list that indicates that they accompanied the release of evidence to the FBI or when they were written.
Denial of the evidence does not change that evidence.
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Denial of the evidence does not change that evidence.
Making up a story about the evidence doesn't constitute evidence.