Yeah, that's the two Oswald could together on the sidewalk from the SN window. He knew they must have went into the building together because he heard them arrive together on the floor and corner below the SN.
12:27? They heard "Main" on the police radio five minutes earlier.
(https://images2.imgbox.com/c5/df/wA72bOw7_o.jpg)
Oswald's prints on the cartons and boxes, coworkers who saw him on the sixth floor, Harold Brennan, the Carcano rifle he ordered that had his prints on it. Not everything has your Hollywood-movie-film or time-travel for proof (and even then). As for hearing, one of the men at the fifth floor windows said they could hear shells dropping above and the bolt being recycled.
From page 22 of Hosty's Assignment: Oswald.
Captain Fritz: You were working in the book depository today. Is that right?
Lee Oswald:....Yes...
Captain Fritz; Were you there when the president's motorcade went by?
Lee Oswald:.... Yes...
Captain Fritz:...Where were you when the president went by the book depository?
Lee Oswald:... I was eating my lunch in the 1st floor lunchroom.
And, as we have known since 2019, Mr Hosty is lying in his book about what Mr Oswald actually said.
We have it in Mr Hosty's own handwriting:
(https://i.postimg.cc/MppkKCWB/Hosty-parade-crop.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Mr Oswald did not claim to have been eating his lunch in the domino room at the time of the P. Parade. He did, however, claim to have been doing so when he saw Messrs Jarman & Norman passing through shortly before the P. Parade.
From page 22 of Hosty's Assignment: Oswald.
Captain Fritz: You were working in the book depository today. Is that right?
Lee Oswald:....Yes...
Captain Fritz; Were you there when the president's motorcade went by?
Lee Oswald:.... Yes...
Captain Fritz:...Where were you when the president went by the book depository?
Lee Oswald:... I was eating my lunch in the 1st floor lunchroom.
From Cap't Fritz's notes ( which he swore he never took) ....
The following is not verbatim.....
(Oswald ) Says... Two fellow colored employees walked by the lunchroom while he was eating lunch. One called Junior and other man short stature .....Says he didn't know their names. Check with Mr Truly to see if he knows the two men.
The two men were Junior Jarman and Harold Norman and they swore that they in fact did walk by the 1st floor lunchroom at about 12:27....
Lee's statement of seeing those two walk by the lunchroom is a rock solid alibi..... But Lee wasn't using it as an alibi when he replied to Fritz's question ..... He was simply stating what he saw while he was there in that lunchroom. He had no idea that Fritz would question Jarman and Norman, or if they would verify that they had in fact walked by the lunchroom.
And, as we have known since 2019, Mr Hosty is lying in his book about what Mr Oswald actually said.
We have it in Mr Hosty's own handwriting:
(https://i.postimg.cc/MppkKCWB/Hosty-parade-crop.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Mr Oswald did not claim to have been eating his lunch in the domino room at the time of the P. Parade. He did, however, claim to have been doing so when he saw Messrs Jarman & Norman passing through shortly before the P. Parade.
Where does Oswald obtain his lunch that day? He tells Frazier, in direct response to his question, that he didn't bring his lunch that morning. There is no place in the TSBD to buy a lunch. Oswald makes no mention of leaving the building to buy his lunch. No one sees him do so. And with the motorcade due in the area, he would have to do so in the midst of crowd (including his coworkers) and police outside.
Being the frugal type that he is, he decided to wait and bum something from the DPD... ;)
Mr Oswald did not claim to have been eating his lunch in the domino room at the time of the P. Parade.
Lee Oswald most certainly DID tell Captain Fritz that he was eating his lunch in the 1st floor lunchroom (Domino Room) at the time of the P. parade. That is what Fritz jotted down in his scribbled notes which he wrote while interrogating Lee.
Where does Oswald obtain his lunch that day? He tells Frazier, in direct response to his question, that he didn't bring his lunch that morning. There is no place in the TSBD to buy a lunch. Oswald makes no mention of leaving the building to buy his lunch. No one sees him do so. And with the motorcade due in the area, he would have to do so in the midst of crowd (including his coworkers) and police outside.
Is there a full moon or something? How do you get a "rock solid alibi" by putting yourself in the location from which the crime was committed (i.e. TSBD)? And a suspect doesn't get an alibi from claiming to see others. They get an alibi when some neutral witness can put the suspect at a different location at the time the crime was committed. Oswald claiming to see someone in the lunchroom who didn't see him doesn't do that. Obviously, Oswald knows his coworkers, who they hung out with, and what they look like from weeks of working in the building. It wouldn't take Nostradamus to come up with that tale. He has no alibi.
No person can reasonably believe that LHO, a person with a well-documented history of interest in politics, who checked out and read JFK's book from the library, wouldn't so much as go outside to watch the motorcade go by his workplace if he was innocent. If he was part of some conspiracy that involved framing him for the crime, the conspirators wouldn't risk allowing him to be in the lunchroom where he might be seen by someone at the time of the crime.
Is there a full moon or something? How do you get a "rock solid alibi" by putting yourself in the location from which the crime was committed (i.e. TSBD)? And a suspect doesn't get an alibi from claiming to see others. They get an alibi when some neutral witness can put the suspect at a different location at the time the crime was committed. Oswald claiming to see someone in the lunchroom who didn't see him doesn't do that. Obviously, Oswald knows his coworkers, who they hung out with, and what they look like from weeks of working in the building. It wouldn't take Nostradamus to come up with that tale. He has no alibi.
No person can reasonably believe that LHO, a person with a well-documented history of interest in politics, who checked out and read JFK's book from the library, wouldn't so much as go outside to watch the motorcade go by his workplace if he was innocent. If he was part of some conspiracy that involved framing him for the crime, the conspirators wouldn't risk allowing him to be in the lunchroom where he might be seen by someone at the time of the crime.
a suspect doesn't get an alibi from claiming to see others.
Oh, Really ?...... Let's pretend that you are a suspect in a murder case. But You know that you weren't anywhere near the murder site at the time it happened. Let's say the time was 10:30 pm SaPersonay night.... And you had said that you had seen a police car stopped with the red lights flashing and the cop was testing the driver for drunk driving. The cop never saw you but you had witnessed the arrest of the driver.
Of course what you witnessed would have been a matter of police record....and the only way you could have described the event was because you had seen it..... Would you think that you had a rock solid alibi?
Of course, Mr Oswald had already given his alibi------------he went outside to watch the P. Parade. He assumed that other employees would vouch for his presence there.
He had no idea that he was in the frame for pulling any trigger in Dealey Plaza. Such an idea would have been too absurd for words. He was given to understand only that he was being accused of killing Officer Tippit and (at most) having some involvement in the events in Dealey Plaza.
It therefore follows as a distinct possiblity that his mention of Messrs Jarman & Norman was not meant as an alibi (which he didn't even think he needed) but as potentially helpful information: I saw those two guys come in shortly before the motorcade. Maybe you need to talk to them, not me.
This would be similar to his mention of having seen a/the rifle being handled by Mr Truly on the first floor a couple of days ago. Again the implication is: Maybe you need to talk to him, not me.
Thumb1:
He was given to understand only that he was being accused of killing Officer Tippit and (at most) having some involvement in the events in Dealey Plaza.
Not according to FBI agent James Hosty. Hosty said that Fritz asked Lee Oswald point blank. "Lee, Did you shoot the president?" Lee responded with an emphatic "NO"....
Of course, Mr Oswald had already given his alibi------------he went outside to watch the P. Parade. He assumed that other employees would vouch for his presence there.
He had no idea that he was in the frame for pulling any trigger in Dealey Plaza. Such an idea would have been too absurd for words. He was given to understand only that he was being accused of killing Officer Tippit and (at most) having some involvement in the events in Dealey Plaza.
It therefore follows as a distinct possiblity that his mention of Messrs Jarman & Norman was not meant as an alibi (which he didn't even think he needed) but as potentially helpful information: I saw those two guys come in shortly before the motorcade. Maybe you need to talk to them, not me.
This would be similar to his mention of having seen a/the rifle being handled by Mr Truly on the first floor a couple of days ago. Again the implication is: Maybe you need to talk to him, not me.
Thumb1:
He assumed that other employees would vouch for his presence there.
If he had been there, don't you think other employees would have told the police that they had seen him
there?
(https://i.postimg.cc/MppkKCWB/Hosty-parade-crop.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Mr Ford....You're reading something into Hosty's notes that simply isn't specific...
Of course, Mr Oswald had already given his alibi------------he went outside to watch the P. Parade. He assumed that other employees would vouch for his presence there.
He had no idea that he was in the frame for pulling any trigger in Dealey Plaza. Such an idea would have been too absurd for words. He was given to understand only that he was being accused of killing Officer Tippit and (at most) having some involvement in the events in Dealey Plaza.
It therefore follows as a distinct possiblity that his mention of Messrs Jarman & Norman was not meant as an alibi (which he didn't even think he needed) but as potentially helpful information: I saw those two guys come in shortly before the motorcade. Maybe you need to talk to them, not me.
This would be similar to his mention of having seen a/the rifle being handled by Mr Truly on the first floor a couple of days ago. Again the implication is: Maybe you need to talk to him, not me.
Thumb1:
Of course, Mr Oswald had already given his alibi------------he went outside to watch the P. Parade.
How many times? ::)
Hosty's sacred note says: "Then went outside to watch P. Parade."
The most obvious interpretation of this being [IMO] that after Oswald had been up to the second floor for a Coke, he went down to the first floor, finished his lunch then went outside to watch the parade.
IT DOES NOT SAY THAT HE SAW THE PARADE
The reason it doesn't say that he saw the parade is because he didn't see it. How can we know that?
When specifically asked the question - did you see the parade - by Inspector Kelley, Oswald answers that no, he did not see the parade.
He did not see the parade.
In the corridors of the DPD, when asked his whereabouts at the time of the shooting, Oswald states he was in the building at that time (please don't start with the "on the steps is still in the building" routine, it really looks bad).
Oswald went outside to watch the parade but missed the moment the president passed because he was in the TSBD building having his lunch in the Domino Room. That's where he was when Norman and Jarman entered the through the north/rear door.
He assumed that other employees would vouch for his presence there.
Oswald was not stood on the steps of the TSBD building at the time of the assassination. We have already seen that he stated this to the press. If he was (which he wasn't) there are about a dozen co-workers would were stood behind him (in the lobby), on the steps with him, and who would have passed by him on the steps as they returned to the building. When specifically asked if they had seen Oswald each one said they had not. And it's not a case of silencing these witnesses. As the events of the day unfolded each person who'd seen Oswald on TV would've told family, friends and neighbours, who'd have told more family, friends and relatives. It was such a massive event this sort of news would've spread like wildfire as it's all anyone was talking about.
"They" would never have been able to cover this up.
But they didn't have to cover it up.
Because it didn't happen.
It therefore follows as a distinct possibility that his mention of Messrs Jarman & Norman was not meant as an alibi
Oswald on the steps would never have seen Norman and Jarman entering the rear of the TSBD. He would've had no idea they did this. It is further evidence Oswald was not on the steps. As if any were needed.
Mr Oswald brought an apple and cheese sandwich to work with him. And, several minutes before the P. Parade, he purchased a Coca-Cola from the machine to have with his lunch.
Maybe he told Mr Frazier he didn't bring his lunch with him because he didn't want to spend his lunch break eating with him. Or maybe Mr Frazier misremembered exactly what he said. Who knows? But by all means, do enjoy tucking into this delicious nothing burger you've cooked up! Thumb1:
[
No person can reasonably believe that LHO, a person with a well-documented history of interest in politics, who checked out and read JFK's book from the library, wouldn't so much as go outside to watch the motorcade go by his workplace if he was innocent. If he was part of some conspiracy that involved framing him for the crime, the conspirators wouldn't risk allowing him to be in the lunchroom where he might be seen by someone at the time of the crime.
There you go again with another classic meaningless strawman.
And a suspect doesn't get an alibi from claiming to see others.
There are many ways an alibi can be established. If, as Walt says, he sees two particular individuals at a specific location and time and it turns out they were indeed there at that time that clearly confirms that Oswald must have been near the location at that time in order to see them.
Wrong, unless you think Oswald lied to Frazier about not having a lunch that morning AND carried his sandwich in a bag over two feet long. LOL. You think Oswald did this to avoid having lunch with Frazier? What bad luck for Old Lee. Not to mention being a completely baseless and bizarre claim.
Mr. BALL. Did you notice whether or not Lee had a package that looked
like a lunch package that morning?
Mr. FRAZIER. You know like I told you earlier, I say, he didn’t take his
lunch because I remember right when I got in the car I asked him where was
his lunch and he said he was going to buy his lunch that day.
It's a strawman to suggest that if Oswald had enough interest in JFK to check out "Profiles in Courage" from the library and read it, that he would have had enough interest to step out of his workplace for a moment to watch him drive by as President of the United States?
If Captain Fritz had felt there were serious grounds to doubt Mr Oswald's claim to have eaten lunch some three hours earlier, he could have ordered that the suspect's stomach be pumped. Obviously, Captain Fritz felt there were no serious grounds to doubt Mr Oswald's claim to have eaten lunch some three hours earlier.
Of course, Mr Oswald had already given his alibi------------he went outside to watch the P. Parade.
How many times? ::)
Hosty's sacred note says: "Then went outside to watch P. Parade."
The most obvious interpretation of this being [IMO] that after Oswald had been up to the second floor for a Coke, he went down to the first floor, finished his lunch then went outside to watch the parade.
IT DOES NOT SAY THAT HE SAW THE PARADE
The reason it doesn't say that he saw the parade is because he didn't see it. How can we know that?
When specifically asked the question - did you see the parade - by Inspector Kelley, Oswald answers that no, he did not see the parade.
He did not see the parade.
In the corridors of the DPD, when asked his whereabouts at the time of the shooting, Oswald states he was in the building at that time (please don't start with the "on the steps is still in the building" routine, it really looks bad).
Oswald went outside to watch the parade but missed the moment the president passed because he was in the TSBD building having his lunch in the Domino Room. That's where he was when Norman and Jarman entered the through the north/rear door.
He assumed that other employees would vouch for his presence there.
Oswald was not stood on the steps of the TSBD building at the time of the assassination. We have already seen that he stated this to the press. If he was (which he wasn't) there are about a dozen co-workers would were stood behind him (in the lobby), on the steps with him, and who would have passed by him on the steps as they returned to the building. When specifically asked if they had seen Oswald each one said they had not. And it's not a case of silencing these witnesses. As the events of the day unfolded each person who'd seen Oswald on TV would've told family, friends and neighbours, who'd have told more family, friends and relatives. It was such a massive event this sort of news would've spread like wildfire as it's all anyone was talking about.
"They" would never have been able to cover this up.
But they didn't have to cover it up.
Because it didn't happen.
It therefore follows as a distinct possibility that his mention of Messrs Jarman & Norman was not meant as an alibi[/b][/i]
Oswald on the steps would never have seen Norman and Jarman entering the rear of the TSBD. He would've had no idea they did this. It is further evidence Oswald was not on the steps. As if any were needed.
But that's exactly what Mr Oswald did do-------------he went outside to watch the P. Parade Thumb1:
There were no grounds to believe Oswald had any lunch. No one other than himself ever claimed it was so. And the DPD had a mountain of evidence to connect him to the crime. Again, though, you think Oswald lied to Frazier about his lunch and brought a sandwich in a bag over two feet long? Like Fred Flinstone's lunch box? That's really the story you are going with?
Honestly, that is tin foil hat stuff. It ranks with Walt's red rings. There are no witnesses, films or photos that place Oswald outside. And you think the conspirators would exercise no control over their "patsy" who they were framing for the crime?
They just let him stand on the street in the presence of his co-workers, law enforcement. and random witnesses.
Hoping they can get all these folks to lie after the fact? That was their plan?
Unreal.
Honestly, that is tin foil hat stuff. It ranks with Walt's red rings. There are no witnesses, films or photos that place Oswald outside. And you think the conspirators would exercise no control over their "patsy" who they were framing for the crime? They just let him stand on the street in the presence of his co-workers, law enforcement. and random witnesses. Hoping they can get all these folks to lie after the fact? That was their plan? Unreal.
There are no witnesses, films or photos that place Oswald outside.
Since when is absence of evidence evidence of absence?
There is not an "absence of evidence." There is an absence of Oswald. LOL. There are plenty of films and photos of Dealey Plaza during the motorcade. They show the folks who WERE there. Oswald is in none of them. He was not the invisible man. If he had stepped outside the TSBD to watch the motorcade, he would have showed up in one of those films or photos. He did not. He is "absent" because he was not there.
coworkers who saw him on the sixth floor,
Not after 12:00.
No person can reasonably believe that LHO, a person with a well-documented history of interest in politics, who checked out and read JFK's book from the library, wouldn't so much as go outside to watch the motorcade go by his workplace if he was innocent.
Oswald makes no mention of leaving the building to buy his lunch. No one sees him do so.
Yes, or maybe he lifted a piece of BRW's chicken. It was fowl play. A contrarian here once suggested that perhaps Oswald didn't sneak into the Texas Theatre without buying a ticket because no one could rule out that he bought a ticket in advance! As though they had Fandango in 1963 and Oswald could somehow know in advance that he would be knocking off early for the movie that day after the president was assassinated from his building. Nothing ever has to make sense. The sole objective is to cast doubt on Oswald's guilt by any means.
There is not an "absence of evidence." There is an absence of Oswald. LOL. There are plenty of films and photos of Dealey Plaza during the motorcade. They show the folks who WERE there. Oswald is in none of them. He was not the invisible man. If he had stepped outside the TSBD to watch the motorcade,
he would have showed up in one of those films or photos. He did not. He is "absent" because he was not there.
'The most obvious interpretation' lol
No one else remembered Mr Oswald making such a statement. Indeed, Agent Bookhout follows Insp. Kelley in giving us Mr Oswald's answer to the two other questions Insp. Kelley put to Mr Oswald in that interrogation, but his report says NOT A WORD about a third question, still less Mr Oswald's answer to it. He knew better than to put any such statement in Mr Oswald's mouth.
As for what led Insp. Kelley to write what he wrote, it's either explained as
a) fabrication on Insp. Kelley's part to incriminate Mr Oswald
b) he asked Mr Oswald 'Did you see Pres. Kennedy get shot?' and Mr Oswald responded 'No I didn't' (as the limousine was out of sight)
Again, 'I, Dan O'Meara, don't like this explanation' is not a substantial rebuttal
He saw Messrs Norman & Jarman before he went outside to watch the P. ParadeAgreed.
A rather odd argument to be coming from someone who believes, as you do, that numerous employees of the Depository lied about things that went down that day. Now you're suddenly telling us that Messrs Lovelady and Shelley were the soul of honesty? Really, Mr O'Meara?
Besides, if Mr Oswald nipped outside at the last minute to watch the P. Parade, he (being a nobody at that time) was in all likelihood noticed by few of the others on those steps.
And the ridiculous magic shadow down Mr Lovelady, which neither I nor you nor anyone else can explain as a natural shadow, strongly suggests that he was noticed by the 'investigating' authorities who first checked out the Wiegman film:Only in your imagination.
There is not an "absence of evidence." There is an absence of Oswald. LOL. There are plenty of films and photos of Dealey Plaza during the motorcade. They show the folks who WERE there. Oswald is in none of them. He was not the invisible man. If he had stepped outside the TSBD to watch the motorcade, he would have showed up in one of those films or photos. He did not. He is "absent" because he was not there.
Lee Oswald most certainly DID tell Captain Fritz that he was eating his lunch in the 1st floor lunchroom (Domino Room) at the time of the P. parade. That is what Fritz jotted down in his scribbled notes which he wrote while interrogating Lee. ( He lied and said he never took any notes during the interrogation. )
I wrote the following interpretation of Hosty's note regarding Oswald's movements in the TSBD:
The most obvious interpretation of this being [IMO] that after Oswald had been up to the second floor for a Coke, he went down to the first floor, finished his lunch then went outside to watch the parade."
If you disagree with this interpretation let's hear yours.
When I wrote - "IT DOES NOT SAY THAT HE SAW THE PARADE" - that is not an interpretation, it's a fact.
Kelley reports that Oswald said he did not see the parade - that's a fact. You can make up whatever you want to try to make it go away.
When it comes to your "standing on the front steps is the same as being in the building" shtick it's a question of "I, Alan Ford, have lost the plot."
Oswald is reported as saying he went outside to watch the parade but didn't see it. The explanation is that Oswald publicly states he was in the building at the time of the shooting.
Your painful mental contortions to try to make this otherwise are of no use.
Agreed.
Trying to use the unreliability of Lovelady and Shelley to discredit everyone else reveals your desperation.
As does your insistence he wasn't noticed by the people he supposedly passed to get out of the front door,
not to mention those employees who knew him by sight returning up the TSBD building steps.
For a nobody he seemed to make a very strong (and negative) impression on many of his fellow employees. Not one employee reports seeing Oswald on the steps. Not a single one.
Where are Fritz's notes dated from Oswald's interrogation?
These are Fritz's handwritten notes. The top page has "morning 23rd" written at the top.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=29103#relPageId=3
Second page has:
Claims 2nd floor Coke
when off came in
to 1st fl had lunch
out with Bill Shelley in front
Compare with Hosty's notes:
He went to 2nd
floor to get Coca Cola to eat with
lunch and returned to 1st floor to
eat lunch. Then went outside to watch
P. Parade
Pretty much the same story:
Oswald is up on the 2nd floor getting a Coke
Goes down to the first floor
Finishes lunch
Heads outside
Agent Hosty is recording the suspect's key claims: his whereabouts at & around the time of the shooting. The absence of any further clarifying note------along the lines of "Then went outside to watch P. Parade, but heard three loud bangs just before doing so" or "Then went outside to watch P. Parade but it had already passed"-------renders your interpretation quite bizarre.
No less bizarre is your belief that Mr Oswald claimed he had a gun stuck in his gut by a cop and was told by a female employee the Pres. had just been shot, and then went downstairs to finish his lunch, before going outside in the belief that what he would be seeing there was... a P. Parade! :D
The recessed front entrance steps are in the building. Only when you step out on to the sidewalk can you be said to have left the building
Not if I believe that Messrs Lovelady & Shelley noticed Mr Oswald there. After all, we are agreed that they were egregious liars. So it's wildly inconsistent for you to now cite them as reliable witnesses
Tell us who he would have had to pass to get out of the front door? And then tell us which way everyone on those steps was looking as the motorcade turned onto Dealey Plaza Thumb1:
Not one employee reports seeing Mr Roy Edward Lewis on the steps. Not a single one. So what?
You evidently still cannot explain why there is a naturalistically impossible shadow down Mr Lovelady in the Wiegman film. And yet you carry on insisting that there's nothing to see in the entranceway. Pure reality-denial!
Ah, I see what you did there, Mr Smith. Mr Oswald didn't "step outside the TSBD", he went out the front door of the building without leaving the premises---------i.e. front steps.
Next you'll be telling us, as you and your Warren Gullible pals always do, that Mr Oswald told a pressman he was "inside the building at the time" :D
OK, show us Mr Roy Edward Lewis outside @ assassination-time. If you can't, I will conclude that you believe Mr Lewis was not there.
And show us Mr Bill Shelley. If you can't, I will conclude that you believe Mr Shelley was not there.
Thumb1:
You are claiming Oswald was on the front steps of the TSBD even though the films and photos of the event don't show him there at the relevant time? And many of his co-workers - like Frazier - were there but didn't see him. It's laughable. No one saw Oswald outside the building or in the lunchroom at the time of the assassination.
Hosty wrote:
He went to 2nd
floor to get Coca Cola to eat with
lunch and returned to 1st floor to
eat lunch. Then went outside to watch
P. Parade
My interpretation of this is:
"The most obvious interpretation of this being [IMO] that after Oswald had been up to the second floor for a Coke, he went down to the first floor, finished his lunch then went outside to watch the parade."
Please explain what is bizarre about this interpretation and provide your own "sensible" interpretation.
When I wrote - "IT DOES NOT SAY THAT HE SAW THE PARADE" - that is not part of an interpretation, it's a fact. This is confirmed by Kelley reporting that Oswald said he did not see the parade.
Unlike you, I don't believe Oswald is some kind of falsely accused, innocent bystander.
He is deeply involved in the events of that day and his reported comments/behaviour should be seen in that light.
I can't believe you've actually gone there. Thumb1:
Nowhere have I cited them as reliable witnesses.
Lewis, Frazier, Shelley and Molina.
Saunders and Stanton were also on the top landing.
You are claiming Oswald was on the front steps of the TSBD even though the films and photos of the event don't show him there at the relevant time?
He saw Messrs Norman & Jarman before he went outside to watch the P. ParadeAny link to James Jarmon's testimony? Nothing here anymore----
Of course, Mr Oswald had already given his alibi------------he went outside to watch the P. Parade.[/b] He assumed that other employees would vouch for his presence there.[/b]
He had no idea that he was in the frame for pulling any trigger in Dealey Plaza. Such an idea would have been too absurd for words. He was given to understand only that he was being accused of killing Officer Tippit and (at most) having some involvement in the events in Dealey Plaza.
It therefore follows as a distinct possiblity that his mention of Messrs Jarman & Norman was not meant as an alibi (which he didn't even think he needed) but as potentially helpful information: I saw those two guys come in shortly before the motorcade. Maybe you need to talk to them, not me.
This would be similar to his mention of having seen a/the rifle being handled by Mr Truly on the first floor a couple of days ago. Again the implication is: Maybe you need to talk to him, not me.
Thumb1:
What's your point? Nobody saw Oswald on the 6th floor at the time of the assassination. So he wasn't there, right?
If you were an employee outside watching the parade, you would be focusing on watching the parade and not turning around to see who was behind you. Any employee could have been outside watching the parade and not have been seen for that exact reason. Plus with all the confusion and hysteria people weren't looking for specific employees to give an alibi to.
LOL. Stick to being a contrarian. Alan claims Oswald was standing on the front steps of the TSBD. There are photos and films that show Oswald wasn't there. His coworkers like Frazier were there. None of them claimed to see Oswald there. Can you understand the difference between that situation and the 6th floor?
Many of these people had been standing together well before the motorcade arrived. They wouldn't have jumped out the door at the last instant since no one knew exactly when the motorcade would pass. There was no "confusion and hysteria" going on while they were waiting. They would have had nothing else to do but notice the folks standing around them. Many of them were TSBD coworkers who would have known each other and socialized. None of them claimed to see Oswald outside the building although they remembered many others. Frazier was standing on the front steps and noted the folks who were standing around him. Oswald wasn't there. If there was any doubt, there are films and photos of the people standing on the front steps. Oswald is not in them.
No. You claim that Oswald was on the 6th floor, don't you? So, there is no difference.
There are photos and films that show Oswald wasn't there.
Utter stupidity on full display! Photos and films can only show that somebody was there. They can not show that somebody wasn't there.
Many of these people had been standing together well before the motorcade arrived. They wouldn't have jumped out the door at the last instant since no one knew exactly when the motorcade would pass.
Another meaningless strawman
Oswald wasn't there. If there was any doubt, there are films and photos of the people standing on the front steps. Oswald is not in them.
There is at least one person in them that, so far, hasn't been positively identified. How can you rule out with 100% certainty that person isn't Oswald? The honest answer would be that you can't rule that out 100%. So, now let's hear your answer....
If you were an employee outside watching the parade, you would be focusing on watching the parade and not turning around to see who was behind you. Any employee could have been outside watching the parade and not have been seen for that exact reason. Plus with all the confusion and hysteria people weren't looking for specific employees to give an alibi to.
Many of these people had been standing together well before the motorcade arrived. They wouldn't have jumped out the door at the last instant since no one knew exactly when the motorcade would pass.
There was no "confusion and hysteria" going on while they were waiting. They would have had nothing else to do but notice the folks standing around them. Many of them were TSBD coworkers who would have known each other and socialized. None of them claimed to see Oswald outside the building although they remembered many others. Frazier was standing on the front steps and noted the folks who were standing around him. Oswald wasn't there.
If there was any doubt, there are films and photos of the people standing on the front steps. Oswald is not in them.
HA HA HA. This one is priceless. A photo or film cannot show somebody wasn't there? Classic contrarian logic. So the claim is that Oswald was standing on the front steps of the TSBD at the moment of the assassination giving him an alibi. There are photos and films of the people standing there at the relevant moment. Oswald isn't there. That leaves us with two possible conclusions. First, that Oswald has powers of invisibility or second, he wasn't there.
Frazier is standing right there. He is the guy who knew Oswald better than anyone else in the building. He drove him to work that very morning. Others there also knew Oswald. None of them ever claimed Oswald had been standing there. Frazier has scientific powers of observation in your estimation when it comes to the length of Oswald's bag that morning, But suddenly he doesn't observe Oswald standing right next to him on the steps. A critical piece of evidence since Oswald would be accused of assassinating the President at that moment. Unreal.
Then Oswald went out the front door and being the slender 135 lb man was able to easily go behind several persons on the entrance landing
including Buell W. frazier,
to the PM location in the west corner at approx 12:28-29.
Third, that your heroes in the 'investigation' have powers of making him invisible by doctoring the visual record
(https://i.postimg.cc/25gCpBmk/Prayer-Man-in-Wiegman-(References & links to websites which contain pornographic images and/or abusive content directed at members of this Forum is strictly prohibited )-Scan-Nov-2015-75.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Dw0V88Cv/Cronkite-Altgens-LHO-arm-coke-gif.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
So all the photos and films were doctored AFTER the fact to remove Oswald?
They somehow knew who the random people in Dealey Plaza were and tracked them down to alter their films before they could be made available to the press.
Nope, but nice strawman!
Nope, but nice strawman!
Bottom line: you & your fellow Warren Gullibles still can't explain the magic shadow down Mr Lovelady in the Wiegman film.
I look forward to your next question: 'So they made a hologram of Billy Lovelady and implanted a microchip in Wiegman's brain and [etc. etc.]?'
Thumb1:
Frazier is standing right there. He is the guy who knew Oswald better than anyone else in the building. He drove him to work that very morning. Others there also knew Oswald. None of them ever claimed Oswald had been standing there. Frazier has scientific powers of observation in your estimation when it comes to the length of Oswald's bag that morning, But suddenly he doesn't observe Oswald standing right next to him on the steps. A critical piece of evidence since Oswald would be accused of assassinating the President at that moment. Unreal.
You mean the same Frazier who was arrested later that day for possible complicity and who Fritz demanded he'd sign a pre-written confession, despite the fact that he was standing on the steps and appears in films and photos?
Until this day nobody has ever positively identified the person they now call PM. He was clearly there, so why did nobody confirm who it was? Could it be they were all focused on other things and simply didn't observe him? Many people simply do not notice things or people that are close to them and many also simply do not recollect information.
Any link to James Jarmon's testimony? Nothing here anymore----
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/jarman.htm
So when you said the following, you were not claiming that the fantasy conspirators doctored the photos?
"Third, that your heroes in the 'investigation' have powers of making him invisible by doctoring the visual record."
Itis questionable if at the time the Weigman and Darnell films were 1st examined if PM was as visible as he is now.
Could it be that PM was pretty much in total darkness when the original films were seen? Was the negative film frames still as dark?
Because as I understand it, it wasn’t until around 2011? That somebody ( maybe it was Groden?) who discovered PM after a process of lighting up the negative frames?
If this the case, the the conspirators didn’t see any PM figure that in any way could possibly resemble Oswald . Thus the reason why ther was no added darkening to obscure PMs white object.
Therefore, the reason for the blackened part of Lovelady in Weigman film was possibly because his right arm had to be obscured since his right sleeve was not rolled up. This was an attempt to hide an anomaly in the 1st version of the Altgens 6 photo , the Cronkite version, which shows what appears to be a forearm raised with some horizontal element ( bottle) and the shirt sleeve rolled up.
After realizing however, that the forearm in the 1sr version Altgens did not belong to the black man in front of Lovelady, the Altgens photo seems to have been altered to “erase” this arm, (and bottle) by adding texture pattern of Loveladys shirt to create the illusion .Loveladys right arm is there.
Only problem is the end of Loveladys right shirt sleeve looks Ike it extends in FRONT of part of the black man’s face. This is obviously Impossible.
You mean the same Frazier who was arrested later that day for possible complicity and who Fritz demanded he'd sign a pre-written confession, despite the fact that he was standing on the steps and appears in films and photos?
Until this day nobody has ever positively identified the person they now call PM. He was clearly there, so why did nobody confirm who it was? Could it be they were all focused on other things and simply didn't observe him? Many people simply do not notice things or people that are close to them and many also simply do not recollect information.
Yes, it may be that PM=LHO, and the shadow was added to hide the fact that Mr Lovelady's sleeves were down.
The question however is: how realistic is it that Mr Oswald went from here in Altgens--------
(https://i.postimg.cc/Dw0V88Cv/Cronkite-Altgens-LHO-arm-coke-gif.gif) (https://postimages.org/)
---------up to the Prayer Man spot in Wiegman?
We are talking a difference here of only a very few seconds.....
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~Yawn~
You translated this into "So all the photos and films were doctored AFTER the fact to remove Oswald?"
If you were intellectually secure in your Warren Gullible beliefs, Mr Smith, you wouldn't feel the need to resort again and again and again to this kind of strawman nonsense.
So! If you wish to get away with dismissing the notion that the Wiegman film was doctored to add a fake shadow down Mr Lovelady's side, then you'll need to do a lot better than 'I can't explain the shadow, but I know it's definitely not an issue'.
Explain the shadow, or man up and take the L Thumb1:
How would your fantasy conspirators even know who took pictures and films that needed to be doctored?
Imagine the plan. Months or even years are devoted to framing LHO for the assassination.
How realistic is it that he went from the top of the steps to the second floor lunchroom before Truly and Baker got there, and no one saw him?
He went up to the second-floor lunchroom to buy a coke BEFORE the P. Parade
Could it be they were all focused on other things and simply didn't observe him? Many people simply do not notice things or people that are close to them and many also simply do not recollect information.
_Correct.
AKA 'inattentional blindness'
He was stopped by Baker and Truly in the second floor lunchroom immediately after the motorcade passed by the TSBD.
He was stopped by Baker and Truly in the second floor lunchroom immediately after the motorcade passed by the TSBD.
Inattentional 'blindness' might have been a factor if indeed Oswald was outside (but not noticed) as some here are arguing
The same kind of argument may be applied re inattentional deafness and the stairs
In any case:
(https://i.postimg.cc/7LjN6SzF/OSWALD-QUIET-STAIRS.png)
billchapman
Not according to Officer Baker's same-day affidavit. But by all means continue in your happily subcritical Warren Gullibility, Mr Collins! Thumb1:
Except that it was impossible to be quiet on those old wooden stairs. Dorothy Garner told Barry Ernest that she knew the girls had gone down (before she saw Truly and the police man come up) because she heard them on the stairs. There is no way that anybody could have run down those stairs without making a noise.
The noise can be minimized by someone light on his feet (including his 131lbs) and in good shapeOne of the order fillers/workers Roy Lewis said this in "No More Silence."
The girls had no reason to worry about being heard.
The noise can be minimized by someone light on his feet (including his 131lbs) and in good shape
The girls had no reason to worry about being heard.
Inattentional 'blindness' might have been a factor if indeed Oswald was outside (but not noticed) as some here are arguing
The same kind of argument may be applied re inattentional deafness and the stairs
In any case:
(https://i.postimg.cc/7LjN6SzF/OSWALD-QUIET-STAIRS.png)
billchapman
One of the order fillers/workers Roy Lewis said this in "No More Silence."
"Sometimes if you were on one of the floors by yourself somebody would sneak up and you'd never know they were there.....They could walk down the stairway and a lot of times they'd be on you before you'd know it..."
What's the evidence that the steps made loud noises or were loud when you went up and down? I can understand multiple people making noise but Lewis's account says one person could go down quietly. And that's in a quiet time or atmosphere; there was lots of noise outside during the aftermath of the shooting.
The same kind of argument may be applied re inattentional deafness and the stairs
Yes, just because no one remembered hearing him, doesn’t mean he wasn’t there.
Too bad Dorothy Garner and some other women on the 4th floor did not see him passing by.
Months or even years are devoted to framing LHO for the assassination.
The "absence of evidence is not evidence" some contrarian philosopher once said. We know someone was on the 6th floor. Witnesses saw a rifle pointed out the window. We know that person got off that floor without being noticed. Therefore we know it was entirely possible for Oswald to have done so.
Roy Truly’s same-day affidavit includes the correct floor and room. He was with Baker and knew the building well. But by all means, continue in your nutty fantasy Mr. Ford.
The "absence of evidence is not evidence" some contrarian philosopher once said.Being a contrarian can be a good thing... https://www.psychotactics.com/contrarian-mindset/
We know someone was on the 6th floor.Agree.
Witnesses saw a rifle pointed out the window.So it is written.
We know that *person got off that floor without being noticed.Or *persons.
Therefore we know it was entirely possible for Oswald to have done so.Were it he.
The "absence of evidence is not evidence" some contrarian philosopher once said. We know someone was on the 6th floor. Witnesses saw a rifle pointed out the window. We know that person got off that floor without being noticed.
Mr Truly's same-day affidavit? Wow------show us! Thumb1:I would like to see that too [didn't know one existed]
I would like to see that too [didn't know one existed]
Mr Truly's same-day affidavit? Wow------show us! Thumb1:
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338979/ (https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338979/)
:D
Read the second sentence on p.1, Mr Collins!
The "absence of evidence is not evidence" some contrarian philosopher once said. We know someone was on the 6th floor. Witnesses saw a rifle pointed out the window. We know that person got off that floor without being noticed. Therefore we know it was entirely possible for Oswald to have done so.
This is what I noticed:
Dallas (Tex.). Police Department. [Affidavit In Any Fact by Roy S. Truly #1], text, November 22, 1963; (https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338979/m1/1/: accessed August 3, 2022), University of North Texas Libraries, The Portal to Texas History, https://texashistory.unt.edu; crediting Dallas Municipal Archives.
It is below the affidavit on page one, just scroll down a bit. It’s apparently in error based on what you pointed out. I must have skimmed over and missed the word yesterday. My mistake.
However, the point is that Baker wasn’t familiar with the building and apparently guessed wrong regarding which floor they encountered LHO on.
Truly correctly stated which floor and room
the next day. Regardless of which one you choose, my original question hasn’t been answered. How realistic is it for him to get from the top of the stairs of the entrance to where Baker and Truly encountered him without being seen?
For some reason...I can't get thatpagesite to load :(
But I found page one where is the other?--
(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth340660/m1/1/med_res/)
Is that a Truly signature or a stamp? I guess it doesn't matter much. It just all looks 'contrived'.
It's without question true that the absense of evidence isn't evidence of absense, but the fact that something is theoretically possible doesn't automatically mean that it is practically possible also. Nobody has ever seen a pig fly, but that doesn't mean that they can fly!
The problem for the theory is that Oswald had to be in the 2nd floor lunchroom some 75 seconds after the last shot and the only way to get there would be the stairs. The same stairs where Dorothy Garner stood in close proximity of.
Any other shooter could have just mingled with the crowd and simply walked out later.
The testimony from a variety of sources all corroborate the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter, as they say in the classics "All roads lead to Rome".In other words Baker was just a dumbass cop and couldn't count floor entries.
And as for Baker being confused about the floor he was on is perfectly understandable because he first walks up steps to get into the Depository and then enters a closed stairwell which has a set of stairs leading to a platform and then he leaves the platform and walks up another set of stairs to the next floor.
No problem, Mr Collins! Thumb1:
Now----------------there are two FBI documents (in the production of both of which FBI agent Agent Pinkston is involved) dated 11/22/63 in which Mr Truly is indeed reported as describing a lunchroom incident. And then we have an official interrogation report (by FBI agent Bookhout) that has Mr Oswald confirming such an incident. But we now know (since 2019) that Mr Oswald actually said he visited the lunchroom for a coke BEFORE the P. Parade, which he afterwards went out to see.
Well! You will claim that Mr Oswald is lying. OK. But then you have to explain why two different interrogation reports have Mr Oswald telling two VERY different stories about the second-floor lunchroom in the same interrogation session. Who's doing the lying here?
If the lunchroom incident happened as Mr Truly and (later) Officer Baker claim, why does a false 'confirmation' of it need to put in Mr Oswald's mouth? Because it's a fiction, designed to deprive him of his front steps alibi. And the interrogation report that says NOTHING about his claim to have gone outside to watch the P. Parade just so happens to be the one that has him 'confirm' a lunchroom encounter. Go figure!
And! The interrogation report that DOES have Mr Oswald claim a PRE-Parade visit to the lunchroom but NO cop encounter there, as well as the going outside to watch P. Parade is--------buried. Go figure!
A very naive attempt to harmonize two very different accounts (11/22/63 affidavit + official lunchroom story).
And the man Officer Baker describes in his affidavit was caught "walking away from the stairway".
And Mr Oswald was brought into the Homicide Office while Officer Baker was giving his affidavit-------yet the affidavit makes no connection between the suspect Officer Baker now sees in front of him and the man he caught several floors up walking away from the stairway.
Go figure!
Well of course he did------------he knew the location of the lunchroom. Doesn't mean he was telling the truth about an encounter happening there!
It's v. improbable but not physically impossible. And that's precisely why the lunchroom was chosen (probably by Agent Pinkston) as the location of the fictitious encounter. Mr Oswald was very quickly known to have been out front during the assassination, and there was every possibility that positive proof of this would emerge over the coming days. So they had to choose a location which he could physically have reached in time for an encounter v. shortly after the assassination---------a location that he could conceivably have made his way to from the front steps via the second-floor corridor or office area while Mr Truly & Officer Baker were making theirs via the first-floor shipping room. Otherwise the 'investigating' authorities are caught in a blatant lie.
Mr Oswald did visit the lunchroom, but it was several minutes before the assassination. There was no post-assassination lunchroom encounter.
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There was no post-assassination lunchroom encounter.
So, it appears that you believe that they just made up the story about the lunchroom encounter. Is that right?
If so, what do you think LHO did immediately after the assassination? Where do you think he went?
In other words Baker was just a dumbass cop and couldn't count floor entries.
Yes. There was an encounter with a different man by the rear stairway on a higher floor
I don't know for sure, Mr Collins. But I believe strongly he was out on the front steps when the assassination occurred
A different man than LHO who was supposedly carrying a rifle?
And Truly identified him as an employee?
So, Baker just let him go? That’s very difficult to swallow.
It appears to me that you are extremely desperate to hang onto your belief.
By the way, how do you explain the sighting of LHO by Mrs. Reid?
She testified that she saw LHO walk in through the back door of her office. This door was only approximately 10’ from the door to the second floor lunchroom. And she saw him enter through that door only seconds after the reported encounter that both Truly and Baker testified about.
A second-floor lunchroom encounter with Mr Oswald was invented, in part, to cover (up) a real encounter with a man (not Mr Oswald) whom Officer Baker caught walking away from the stairway on a higher floor...That same man was seen running from the back of the building shortly afterwards.
Mr. BELIN. When you got to the fifth floor, as I understand it, the west elevator was not there, but when you started up from the first floor, you thought it was on the fifth floor.
Mr. TRULY. No. When I came down from the second floor---from the seventh floor with the officer, I thought I saw Jack Dougherty on the fifth floor, which he would have had plenty of time to move the elevator down and up and get some stock and come back.
Mr. BELIN. But when you got to the fifth floor that west elevator was not there?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Was it on any floor below the fifth floor?
Mr. TRULY. I didn't look.
Mr. BELIN. As you were climbing up the floors, you did not see it?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir.
A different man than LHO who was supposedly carrying a rifle? And Truly identified him as an employee? So, Baker just let him go? That’s very difficult to swallow. It appears to me that you are extremely desperate to hang onto your belief.There was a report that a guy wearing a brown suit coat/slacks was seen coming out the rear of the TSBD carrying a rifle and kept walking north. You must have seen this posted before now.
If he heard the two men coming up the stairs, he will have quickly divested himself of the rifle
Yes, NB!
Why? If he's lost the rifle, then it's not at all difficult to swallow. And it's what Officer Baker describes in his affidvait
Yes, the perfect story to back up the man she immediately answers to. Unfortunately, Ms Geneva Hine puts a dampener on the whole farce
Consider this, Mr Collins:
The three Depository people who talked about seeing Mr Oswald in the Depository after the shooting----------Mr Truly, Ms Reid & Mr Campbell----------just so happen to have been standing together watching the P. Parade just before this.
Out of all the Depository people it might have been, it's the members of this trio. What are the odds, hm?
There was a report that a guy wearing a brown suit coat/slacks was seen coming out the rear of the TSBD carrying a rifle and kept walking north. You must have seen this posted before now.
Please explain how it is that you believe Geneva Hine “puts a dampener” on this.
Read her testimony, Mr Collins! Thumb1:
I do have a vague memory of someone claiming to have seen something like that from up high in a building at quite a distance. But don’t remember any details. I also seem to remember a report by an employee who worked at the other TSBD warehouse who walked south on Houston Street towards Elm Street. This person (if I remember correctly) said that no one came out of the back door and walking north. Sorry, but I don’t have the names or other specifics handy. But since this is your pet theory, I imagine that you have seen this discussed before now.
I have Mr. Ford. I actually started a thread a while back about Geneva Hine. Perhaps you need to do a little reading…
Give us the bullet points! Thumb1:
And I have a vague memory of posting this on this thread in the last 24 hours. Guess you missed it:
(https://i.postimg.cc/RZWWqNx7/Sawyer-description-source.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
So much for a man seen running from the building being a 'pet theory'!
How do you explain away the conspiracy-proving information in the above document, Mr Collins?
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Ruth Dean: (page 71 of “No More Silence” by Larry Sneed)
I was standing there with Madie Reese and Billy Lovelady and several other employees. I remember Billy being there because we were joking before the motorcade arrived. Lee Harvey Oswald was not there on the steps, as some people have claimed.
Answer the question. You made the claim.
It reminds me of the experiment that elementary shcool teachers like to demonstrate. They tell a story to one student, then the story is passed around the room from one student to another, and by the time it gets to the last student it has changed quite a bit.
She didn't see Mr Oswald out on the steps as everyone was awaiting the arrival of the motorcade. Your point?
Ah, so your way of coping with the disastrous information contained in this document is to compare the trained law enforcement officers named therein to elementary school students. Got it! Thumb1:
She knew him by sight and states that he wasn’t there….
Not at all. The lesson applies to people of all ages and all walks of life.
So a suspect description was put out over police radio by a trained law enforcement officer on the strength of his having just hallucinated a conversation with a man who had just hallucinated a man with a rifle running from the building.
:D
Where do you come up with this nonsense? I said nothing that even remotely resembles that. Are you going to answer the question about how you believe that Geneva Hine put a dampener on Reid’s account? Or do we just end this conversation on this note?
Just a minute, Mr Collins. Your attempt to explain away the conspiracy-proving information in the document I posted amounted to: it was just a case of Chinese whispers.
The reason this idea won't wash----------beyond its obvious silliness-----------is that the document makes clear that this ONE conversation (between Insp. Sawyer and the witness) had the following immediate result: "this description was broadcast to all Dallas squad cars".
So I can only restate the logic that you are relying on:
A suspect description was put out over police radio by a trained law enforcement officer on the strength of his having just hallucinated a conversation with a man who had just hallucinated a man with a rifle running from the building.
And I am happy to follow this up by noting what will already be obvious to everyone reading: your conclusion is no more than a hilariously desperate Warren Gullible cope, of the sort we have learned to recognize so well in these here parts.
**
However! If it would make you feel better, I would be happy to drop one of the hallucinations. This would leave us with the following:
EITHER
A suspect description was put out over police radio by a trained law enforcement officer on the strength of his having just hadhallucinateda conversation with a man who had just hallucinated a man with a rifle running from the building.
OR
A suspect description was put out over police radio by a trained law enforcement officer on the strength of his having just hallucinated a conversation with a man who had just seenhallucinateda man with a rifle running from the building.
Which of the two options do you feel more comfortable aligning yourself with?
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~Grin~
Seeing as you started a thread on Ms Hine, you obviously saw her as a problem to be neutralized. So you don't need me to walk you through the issue.
But what the heck, I'll play..............
Ms Hine was frantic to find out what had happened. Ms Reid came in. And yet Ms Hine has no memory of finding out about the shooting from Ms Reid.
Did Ms Reid hide under a desk just before Ms Hine re-entered the office area?
It's without question true that the absense of evidence isn't evidence of absense, but the fact that something is theoretically possible doesn't automatically mean that it is practically possible also. Nobody has ever seen a pig fly, but that doesn't mean that they can fly!
The problem for the theory is that Oswald had to be in the 2nd floor lunchroom some 75 seconds after the last shot and the only way to get there would be the stairs. The same stairs where Dorothy Garner stood in close proximity of.
Any other shooter could have just mingled with the crowd and simply walked out later.
What "crowd" was there between the 6th floor and exit that your "other" shooter could have mingled with to escape the building? Unreal. Oswald was LESS likely to be noticed than a stranger since he worked in the building and had a legitimate reason to be there. The simple point here is that we know with absolute certainty that someone on the 6th floor could get off that floor without anyone noticing them because that is what actually happened. Whether that was Oswald or someone else. Witnesses placed a shooter on the 6th floor. That person got off the floor without being seen by anyone. So all the CTer pedantic mumbo jumbo about Oswald not being able to get down the stairs without being seen is not relevant. It happened - whether you want to believe it was Oswald or someone else who escaped that floor. Therefore we know it was not only possible but actually occurred since the shooter got off that floor without being seen. You are implying that the fantasy conspirator shooter could do something that Oswald for some inexplicable reason could not. That is absurd. Nothing precludes Oswald from being the shooter and getting to the lunchroom unnoticed.
What "crowd" was there between the 6th floor and exit that your "other" shooter could have mingled with to escape the building?
Who said anything about "between the 6th floor and exit"?
The simple point here is that we know with absolute certainty that someone on the 6th floor could get off that floor without anyone noticing them because that is what actually happened. Whether that was Oswald or someone else.
Yes, there's no need to repeat yourself
So all the CTer pedantic mumbo jumbo about Oswald not being able to get down the stairs without being seen is not relevant.
Of course it's relevant. If there was no window of opportunity for Oswald to get down the stairs and arrive at the 2nd floor lunchroom within 75 seconds of the last shot, then you've got nothing.
Adams and Styles left their window at the 4th floor directly after the last shot. To get to the stairs in the back, they only had to cross the 4th floor diagonally where as the shooter on the 6th floor had to run from back to front and then right to left. In other words, there is no way that he could have reached the stairs faster that Adams and Styles. Even more so, as Brennan said that the shooter did not leave the window straight away. Once the girls went down the stairs, Dorothy Garner heard them on the stairs, which places here in close proximity of those stairs. She saw nobody come down from the higher floors but she did observe Truly and a police man come up. By then the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter between Baker and Oswald had already happened.
There is no window of opportunity for Oswald to get down those stairs in that timeframe, which is exactly why the WC tried to discredit Adams and disregarded Garner. You may call it "Pedantic mumbo jumbo" but als long as you can't show there was actually a window of opportunity for Oswald, it's you who is blowing hot air.
You are implying that the fantasy conspirator shooter could do something that Oswald for some inexplicable reason could not. That is absurd. Nothing precludes Oswald from being the shooter and getting to the lunchroom unnoticed.
Except for the one thing you conveniently forget; Oswald is the only one who needed to do that within 75 seconds after the last shot. Any other shooter could have done it later. So, yes there is something the precludes Oswald from being the shooter and getting to the lunchroom unnoticed within 75 seconds after the last shot
75 seconds - lol. As though the timing of these events can be known with scientific precision. Ridiculous. And there is still nothing to have precluded Oswald from reaching the lunchroom in that timeframe. Your fantasy shooter presumably has to get out of the entire building - not just down to the 2nd floor in the same timeframe.
But there is not a scintilla of evidence that shows anyone did so.
A stranger beating it down the stranger was much more likely to be remembered than an employee like Oswald who had a legitimate reason to be in the building.
Many people simply do not notice things or people that are close to them and many also simply do not recollect information.
75 seconds - lol. As though the timing of these events can be known with scientific precision. Ridiculous. And there is still nothing to have precluded Oswald from reaching the lunchroom in that timeframe. Your fantasy shooter presumably has to get out of the entire building - not just down to the 2nd floor in the same timeframe. But there is not a scintilla of evidence that shows anyone did so. A stranger beating it down the stranger was much more likely to be remembered than an employee like Oswald who had a legitimate reason to be in the building.
This reasoning was used for why someone might not have been noticed on the front entrance steps:
Yet, it is apparently being ignored when it comes to the northwest inside stairs.
There was no one “monitoring the stairs”. There wasn’t a security checkpoint with retina scanning (like they use these days at U.S. customs for people entering the country). LHO was sneaky. He was reportedly sneaking out of his aunt’s house while everyone was asleep when he wasn’t much older than a toddler. If you think LHO couldn’t have gotten down those stairs in that timeframe without being detected, you are just kidding yourself.
If you think LHO couldn’t have gotten down those stairs in that timeframe without being detected, you are just kidding yourself.
So, why don't you tell us how exactly he could have done that?
How did he manage to cover a distance nearly double in lenght as the distance Adams and Styles had to cover and go down two flights of stairs and still be there before Adams and Styles got to the stairs on the 4th floor?
Or, alternatively, how did he manage to get by Dorothy Garner, who was near enough to the stairs to hear the girls go down and who saw nobody else except Truly and Baker coming up?
Shall I prepare for a long wait?
You’ve already said it yourself. And I pointed out that the same reasoning applies to these stairs.
You jump to the most ridiculous conclusions. What appears to have eluded you (even though I gave an elementary school analogy) is that this is sixth-hand information by the time Gordon Shanklin gets it. Seventh-hand information by the time it gets to J. Edgar Hoover. Hence the comparison to the elementary school lesson. You do not include the date and time of the memo. You do not include any information at all that would tend to corroborate what the sixth-hand account says. As far as I know, none of the seven individuals involved in transmitting this account ever confirmed it. And best of all it was supposedly started by an “unidentified individual”. You claim that this is “conspiracy-proving”. It isn’t, its just another bit of early-on misinformation that ended up on a memo to JEH.
Sorry, I must have missed this post until now. That’s it? ???
You obviously haven’t read the thread that I started a while back regarding Geneva Hine. It was started for a completely different reason. You can read it if you are interested.
So, specifically how do you think that this idea you have regarding Geneva Hine’s account put a damper on Mrs. Reid’s account? What are you trying to say?
What "crowd" was there between the 6th floor and exit that your "other" shooter could have mingled with to escape the building? Unreal. Oswald was LESS likely to be noticed than a stranger since he worked in the building and had a legitimate reason to be there. The simple point here is that we know with absolute certainty that someone on the 6th floor could get off that floor without anyone noticing them because that is what actually happened.
This reasoning was used for why someone might not have been noticed on the front entrance steps:
Yet, it is apparently being ignored when it comes to the northwest inside stairs.
There was no one “monitoring the stairs”.
There wasn’t a security checkpoint with retina scanning (like they use these days at U.S. customs for people entering the country). LHO was sneaky. He was reportedly sneaking out of his aunt’s house while everyone was asleep when he wasn’t much older than a toddler. If you think LHO couldn’t have gotten down those stairs in that timeframe without being detected, you are just kidding yourself.
Oh no, it doesn't work that way. There is a lot of difference between somebody in a crowd, with a lot going on, not seeing a particular individual and one person like Garner who was standing near the stairway of an empty warehouse floor with nothing else going on somehow missing somebody coming down noisy stairs and passing directly by her.
The one living in a fantasy world is you. If this is all you've got, then you've got nothing!
Hearsay and without cross-examination.
"Mr. Bellin was questioning Miss Adams about whether or not she
saw anyone as she was running down the stairs. Miss Garner,
Miss Adams' supervisor, stated this morning that after Miss Adams
went downstairs she (Miss Garner) saw Mr. Truly and the policeman
come up."
Also Garner doesn't say here she saw Adams & Styles go down. She could have heard Truly and Baker coming up, and mistakenly thought it was the two women on the stairs. Garner might have missed Adams and Styles going down altogether. Styles said it more like minutes, then seconds before they left the window and that they first went to and waited on the passenger elevator.
It's also possible that Garner saw the two girls enter the stairway and missed seeing Baker and Truly passing through the fourth floor a minute or so earlier. Baker and Truly were back on the fourth, after having gone to the roof. Garner could have seen them then.
None of this was asked of Garner and we don't the context in which she was speaking. We do know what Baker and Truly did (and recreated it in time trials right at the Depository) and that Adams testified she saw Lovelady when she reached the first floor, which would be about 12:34.
Hearsay and without cross-examination.
"Mr. Bellin was questioning Miss Adams about whether or not she
saw anyone as she was running down the stairs. Miss Garner,
Miss Adams' supervisor, stated this morning that after Miss Adams
went downstairs she (Miss Garner) saw Mr. Truly and the policeman
come up."
Also Garner doesn't say here she saw Adams & Styles go down. She could have heard Truly and Baker coming up, and mistakenly thought it was the two women on the stairs.
Garner might have missed Adams and Styles going down altogether. Styles said it more like minutes, then seconds before they left the window and that they first went to and waited on the passenger elevator.
It's also possible that Garner saw the two girls enter the stairway and missed seeing Baker and Truly passing through the fourth floor a minute or so earlier. Baker and Truly were back on the fourth, after having gone to the roof. Garner could have seen them then.
None of this was asked of Garner
75 seconds - lol. As though the timing of these events can be known with scientific precision.
Scientific precision. No. It could of course be a few seconds more or less. But the 2nd lunchroom meeting took place when Truly and Baker got there and that wasn't much later than 75 seconds after the last shot.
And there is still nothing to have precluded Oswald from reaching the lunchroom in that timeframe.
There's only nothing as long as you keep ignoring the obvious truth. But then, that's par for course with you, isn't it?
Your fantasy shooter presumably has to get out of the entire building - not just down to the 2nd floor in the same timeframe.
What makes you say something this stupid?
How about this? Explain to us how you think your fantasy shooter on the 6th floor got out of the building unnoticed and how long it took him instead of deflecting with insults. It's unclear why you believe Oswald - who worked in the building - could not have done this but some stranger could. Just making vague references to "75 seconds" and "crowds" don't do that.
Trying to explain anything to you has frequently proven to be a complete waste of time as you will either reject or ignore it anyway. So, why don't you try to figure it out by yourself.
But I will tell you this; unless you believe the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter didn't happen, Oswald must have been on the second floor within roughly 75 seconds after the last shot. He would not have had the luxury and ability of being able to hang around on the 6th floor and mingle with the many law enforcement officers that flooded the floor, pretending to be one of them and simply walking away. Oswald, or any other TSBD employee, on the 6th floor would have stood out in much the same way Oswald did to Baker on the 2nd floor.
You want me to figure out your theory? Wow. You must have a lot of confidence in it if you won't even tell us what you are suggesting. There is absolutely nothing that precludes Oswald from being the shooter and being in the lunchroom within the relevant timeframe to encounter Baker. How long do you think it takes to walk down a few floors of stairs? You are really suggesting that the assassin hung around on the 6th floor and waited for law enforcement to arrive to somehow blend in! That is one of the most baseless and bizarre claims in history. Not a single person ever claimed to have encountered this individual. Honestly, I would be embarrassed to peddle this weak nonsense.
You mean the same Frazier who was arrested later that day for possible complicity and who Fritz demanded he'd sign a pre-written confession, despite the fact that he was standing on the steps and appears in films and photos?
Until this day nobody has ever positively identified the person they now call PM. He was clearly there, so why did nobody confirm who it was? Could it be they were all focused on other things and simply didn't observe him? Many people simply do not notice things or people that are close to them and many also simply do not recollect information.
It's hearsay. Garner apparently overheard Belin taking about the two men "coming up" and could have innocently incorporated that into when she actually saw them, when they returned from the roof. For that matter, Shroud could have added that sweetener.
Neither Garner nor Shroud might have known about the return of Baker and Truly to the fourth floor, which one or both could have assumed was the only time they were on the floor.
The Shrould Letter just isn't that definitive; it has no times or specific places or a witness who saw Garner. Rather than go with your imaginative take on pure hearsay, go with the witnesses who were sworn in and who participated in the time trials. Adams would have her broke her neck trying to duplicate her fanciful madcap dash in three-inch heels. She would have reached the parking before the policeman who turned her back.
How about this? Explain to us how you think your fantasy shooter on the 6th floor got out of the building unnoticed
It's hearsay. Garner apparently overheard Belin taking about the two men "coming up" and could have innocently incorporated that into when she actually saw them, when they returned from the roof. For that matter, Shroud could have added that sweetener. Neither Garner nor Shroud might have known about the return of Baker and Truly to the fourth floor, which one or both could have assumed was the only time they were on the floor.
The Shrould Letter just isn't that definitive; it has no times or specific places or a witness who saw Garner. Rather than go with your imaginative take on pure hearsay, go with the witnesses who were sworn in and who participated in the time trials. Adams would have her broke her neck trying to duplicate her fanciful madcap dash in three-inch heels. She would have reached the parking before the policeman who turned her back.
That's it right there. Others who were sworn in, including Adams who signed her testimony transcript, recount the timeline determined by Belin.
The employees were focused on watching the parade and had their backs at the Prayer Man. So, they clearly weren't paying attention to who was behind them on that day. Which is why the Prayer Man has never been identified.
When people are out watching something they aren't looking around observing to see who is behind them.
How about this? Explain to us how you think your fantasy shooter on the 6th floor got out of the building unnoticed and how long it took him instead of deflecting with insults.
It's hearsay. Garner apparently overheard Belin taking about the two men "coming up" and could have innocently incorporated that into when she actually saw them, when they returned from the roof.
The Shrould Letter just isn't that definitive; it has no times or specific places or a witness who saw Garner.
Adams would have her broke her neck trying to duplicate her fanciful madcap dash in three-inch heels.
That's it right there. Others who were sworn in, including Adams who signed her testimony transcript, recount the timeline determined by Belin.
That's it right there. Others who were sworn in, including Adams who signed her testimony transcript, recount the timeline determined by Belin.
The noise can be minimized by someone light on his feet
LOL You never ran down those stairs.
What do anyone else's capabilities have do to with Oswald's
Too bad Dorothy Garner and some other women on the 4th floor did not see him passing by.
What capabilities of Oswald are you talking about and how do you know he had those capabilities in the first place?
About 73 other people (besides LHO) worked in that building at that time. Not one of them said that they saw LHO at the time of the assassination. And, not one of them said that they were on the sixth floor at that time either. Is this just a coincidence or what? ???
::)
Not one of them said they were in the domino room at that time either.
::)
Not one of them said they were in the domino room at that time either.
There is absolutely nothing that precludes Oswald from being the shooter and being in the lunchroom within the relevant timeframe to encounter Baker.
This exactly what I was talking about. It has been explained to you over and over again and still you ignore the information and come up with the same bogus claim
How long do you think it takes to walk down a few floors of stairs?
You forgot the part where Oswald had to run in a straight line to the back of the building and then run the same distance from east to west to get to the stairs. Or are you under the impression that Oswald was standing next to the stairs entrance when the shots were fired?
You are really suggesting that the assassin hung around on the 6th floor and waited for law enforcement to arrive to somehow blend in!
I know by now that it's a difficult concept for you to grasp, but I am suggesting nothing. I'm merely considering possible options. Are you of the opinion that something like that could not have happened? Are you really so naive? Hiding in the open is very often the best option.
That is one of the most baseless and bizarre claims in history. Not a single person ever claimed to have encountered this individual.
Here you go again.... Nobody claimed to have encountered Oswald on the 6th floor either. So what? The whole purpose of hiding in a crowd is not to get noticed.
Honestly, I would be embarrassed to peddle this weak nonsense.
As peddling weak nonsense goes, you should be embarrassed every day of the week, but being a Trump follower you probably won't as peddling nonsense is par for the course for that cult.
About 73 other people (besides LHO) worked in that building at that time. Not one of them said that they saw LHO at the time of the assassination. And, not one of them said that they were on the sixth floor at that time either. Is this just a coincidence or what? ???
Remember this one?----
Compare that to the Oswald story, which has ZERO to substantiate it. It’s a constant source of amazement how omniscient Nutters think they are.
If you're suggesting a conspiracy then prove it, otherwise we will just have to rely on the evidence.JohnM----
Amidst your usual nonsense, Mr Collins, you inadvertently stumble upon an extremely important point.
Mr Bonnie Ray Williams testified that several of the guys had agreed beforehand to watch the P. Parade from the sixth floor. And yet not a single one of them ended up watching the P. Parade from the sixth floor. Every other in-use floor in the building had employees at windows, yet not the sixth--which offered the best view of all. What an amazing stroke of luck for evil Mr Oswald!
Thumb1:
I have been trying to reconcile the location of the elevators up to and after the parade based on the description [which floor were they at] given by Roy Truly and the one given by James Jarman.
Remember this one?----JohnM----
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1266.msg30340.html#msg30340
More like... If you're suggesting a conspiracy then prove it, otherwise we will just have to rely on what we're told :D
I have been trying to reconcile the location of the elevators up to and after the parade based on the description [which floor were they at] given by Roy Truly and the one given by James Jarman.
What capabilities of Oswald are you talking about and how do you know he had those capabilities in the first place?
His obvious physical fitnessHe worked out? :D
Amidst your usual nonsense, Mr Collins, you inadvertently stumble upon an extremely important point.
Mr Bonnie Ray Williams testified that several of the guys had agreed beforehand to watch the P. Parade from the sixth floor. And yet not a single one of them ended up watching the P. Parade from the sixth floor. Every other in-use floor in the building had employees at windows, yet not the sixth--which offered the best view of all. What an amazing stroke of luck for evil Mr Oswald!
Thumb1:
The guys had just finished working on the fifth floor a few days beforehand. It isn’t surprising that they would choose to go there. The photos that I remember seeing of the fifth floor (when they posed for their positions for the investigators) showed a much less cluttered area. Perhaps that is one reason that they chose it?
Like where it says----
Take a look at Jack Dougherty’s statement in CE-1381: https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1381.pdf (https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1381.pdf)
At the time President Kennedy was shot I was at aWhat about those guys hanging out at the SE corner....no one saw each other? It seems like there was some mystery fog everywhere at this time. Also...were there not 2 elevators...where was the other one?
point about 10 feet from the elevator on the fifth floor of
the Texas School Book Depository Building. I was alone at
this time.
Again, why would this stroke of "luck" be limited to Oswald?
Like where it says----
What about those guys hanging out at the SE corner....no one saw each other? It seems like there was some mystery fog everywhere at this time. Also...were there not 2 elevators...where was the other one?
No one said that they saw someone who looked like LHO firing a rifle out of the window of the domino room either. ::)
Not one of them said they saw shooters in Dealey Plaza either
The same tired contrarian nonsense. Going round and round in circles of rambling commentary, deflection, and insults.
There is zero evidence that anyone was found hanging around on the 6th floor claiming to be a law enforcement officer.
You also suggest a complete stranger would be less noticeable than Oswald who was an employee of the TSBD.
Again, why would this stroke of "luck" be limited to Oswald? We know someone was on the 6th floor. Witnesses saw a rifle pointed out the window at the moment of the assassination. Whether that was Oswald or someone else, the "logic" of your post applies to whomever was there.
Like where it says----
What about those guys hanging out at the SE corner....no one saw each other? It seems like there was some mystery fog everywhere at this time. Also...were there not 2 elevators...where was the other one?
Or out of the sixth floor window either. At least not until Howard Brennan’s “change of heart” many days later.
The same tired contrarian nonsense. Going round and round in circles of rambling commentary, deflection, and insults. You have suggested that Oswald couldn't get from the 6th floor to the lunchroom unnoticed. When it was pointed out to you that SOMEONE on the 6th floor did escape unnoticed, you became hysterical suggesting the following as a possible explanation for why this fantasy person could do something that you claim Oswald could not:
"[Oswald] would not have had the luxury and ability of being able to hang around on the 6th floor and mingle with the many law enforcement officers that flooded the floor, pretending to be one of them and simply walking away. Oswald, or any other TSBD employee, on the 6th floor would have stood out in much the same way Oswald did to Baker on the 2nd floor."
This is one of the most baseless and laughable claims in the history of this forum. There is zero evidence that anyone was found hanging around on the 6th floor claiming to be a law enforcement officer. Baker and Truly did not encounter any such person when they arrived on the floor. Don't you think someone might mention that they encountered on the floor from which the shots were fired? You also suggest a complete stranger would be less noticeable than Oswald who was an employee of the TSBD. Unreal. It's understandable why you are running away from your own theory, suggestion, or whatever you are calling this baseless nonsense. You should apologize to intelligent people on this forum for wasting their time.
That’s not true. Brennan gave a reasonably close description at the scene. And singled out LHO at the lineup later that evening as looking like the gunman. (And that’s what I said that you disagreed with.)You'll notice that the behavior of Brennan - e.g., not immediately identifying the shooter as Oswald - is evidence that calls into question his credibility but the behavior of Oswald that calls into question his credibility or innocence is always dismissed. Always meaning: always.
You're adding so much on to the Stroud Letter, Garner can now see Adams and Styles on the staircase and can only hear them going down the stairs rather than Baker and Truly coming up.
You'll notice that the behavior of Brennan - e.g., not immediately identifying the shooter as Oswald - is evidence that calls into question his credibility but the behavior of Oswald that calls into question his credibility or innocence is always dismissed. Always meaning: always.
So the rule in "Oswald defender land" is that the behavior of those implicating Oswald can be used against them but the behavior of Oswald implicating himself cannot be used against him. Because the latter behavior is suddenly not evidence. It's evidence when it helps him but not evidence when it hurts him.
The efforts by the Oswald defenders to clear him, the double standards, the intellectual inconsistency, the shamelessness is sometimes remarkable.
You'll notice that the behavior of Brennan - e.g., not immediately identifying the shooter as Oswald - is evidence that calls into question his credibility but the behavior of Oswald that calls into question his credibility or innocence is always dismissed. Always meaning: always.
So the rule in "Oswald defender land" is that the behavior of those implicating Oswald can be used against them but the behavior of Oswald implicating himself cannot be used against him. Because the latter behavior is suddenly not evidence. It's evidence when it helps him but not evidence when it hurts him.
The efforts by the Oswald defenders to clear him, the double standards, the intellectual inconsistency, the shamelessness is sometimes remarkable.
The prestigious corner office was quite cluttered. Unless, of course one had bad intent and wanted to be hidden from any potential others on the floor...
(https://i.vgy.me/1iguQ4.gif)
The workers who selected the fifth floor also apparently liked the southeast corner office. But they knew the one on the floor above was cluttered...
Thumb1:
I was watching a documentary about WWII recently. And they showed a statement from General Douglas MacArthur about FDR which went something like:
“He never tells the truth when a lie will suffice.”
Of course, that’s just political jockeying nonsense between the General and FDR.
But, I couldn’t help but think how well that actually applies to LHO. It’s a pity that the naysayers don’t seem to realize that.
So the rule in "Oswald defender land" is that the behavior of those implicating Oswald can be used against them
That’s not true. Brennan gave a reasonably close description at the scene.
Here are just some of the fine, honest and totally uncorrupt people Mr Oswald was up against
https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna25917791
'Not a racist'There are some things I would say about Henry Wade..competitive ...isn't one of them. I would say a soul of granite is more like it.
But some of those who knew Wade say the truth is more complicated than Watkins' summation. "My father was not a racist. He didn't have a racist bone in his body," said Kim Wade, a lawyer in his own right. "He was very competitive."
That’s not true. Brennan gave a reasonably close description at the scene. And singled out LHO at the lineup later that evening as looking like the gunman. (And that’s what I said that you disagreed with.)
You'll notice that the behavior of Brennan - e.g., not immediately identifying the shooter as Oswald - is evidence that calls into question his credibility but the behavior of Oswald that calls into question his credibility or innocence is always dismissed. Always meaning: always.
“Reasonably close”? It was the wrong height, wrong weight, wrong age, and wrong clothing to be Oswald. He also had no reasonable way to estimate those things for a person “taking aim” for the last shot, who would necessarily be crouched down behind boxes.
What description did Mr Brennan give at the scene, Mr Collins?
The one that Sawyer broadcast over the DPD radio about 12:44.
Really? The one where Insp. Sawyer says the witness cannot give a clothing description? The one that leads Insp. Sawyer to mention there is uncertainty as to whether the suspect under description was "in the building in the first place"? That one?
No, the uncertainty part was concerning Charles Givens. They put out a description of Givens because they were trying to locate him.
The witness couldn't give a clothing description for Mr Givens?
And what makes you say Insp. Sawyer's "unknown if he was there in the first place" remark relates to Mr Givens?
I was mistaken about Givens. That was later.
Thank you, Mr Collins-----it was indeed later, a lot later.
So! Are you saying that Mr Howard Brennan's on-the-scene description of the man he saw firing from the sixth-floor window is the descrption in relation to which Insp. Sawyer says the witness cannot remember enough to give a clothing description? And that it is "unknown if he was in the building in the first place"?
Thumb1:
This was during the first 15 to 20 minutes after the shots. They were still trying to figure out what happened.
“From this building it is unknown if he is still there or not. Unknown if
he was there in the first place.”
Mr. BELIN. Then it reads back here, “All the information we have received, indicates it did come from the fifth or fourth of that building.”
That is the central headquarters back to you, is that it?
Mr. SAWYER. That’s right.
Why are you asking about this?
Ah ok, I think I get it now, Mr Collins.
So:
Insp. Sawyer hears from Mr Brennan about a man firing from an upper window of the Depository. Mr Brennan gives him a description of the shooter, including a clothing description (light-colored), which we know Mr Brennan was able to give. And then Insp. Sawyer gives that description (but without any reference to clothing) over the police radio, before proceeding to
a) say that the witness cannot remember anything as to clothing;
b) express uncertainty as to whether the man seen firing from an upper window of the Depository was even in the Depository in the first place.
Is that about the size of it?
Holding for Huck? ::)
So: it is clear that you cannot think of a way to reconcile these things Insp. Sawyer said over the radio with your claim that the witness giving the suspect description he put out was Mr Brennan. In fact, you are quite at a loss.
That's okay, Mr Collins. We're understanding people. And we take heart from the fact that you have been disabused of the dreadful misapprehension you have been laboring under that these things Insp. Sawyer said over the radio related to Mr Charles Givens. This means that you can now decontaminate your brain of the WC propaganda you were fed about this issue and actually approach it for the very first time with some logical thinking.
If you go bravely forth into this exciting new world of evidence-based research, you have every hope of coming to the realization that your claim that the witness behind the suspect description was Mr Brennan is perfectly absurd. This will be a painful realization for you, but it promises to be a crucial first step out of the judgment-addling fog of Warren Gullibility into which you so sadly wandered a long time ago. No pain, no gain, right?
Thumb1:
So: it is clear that you cannot think of a way to reconcile these things Insp. Sawyer said over the radio with your claim that the witness giving the suspect description he put out was Mr Brennan.
Let me get this straight.
You are trying to ask me to provide evidence that Brennan was the person who gave the description to Sawyer? If so, I must have missed the question.
And your argument is that it was someone else other than Brennan?
And your evidence is that Sawyer said: “From this building it is unknown if he is still there or not. Unknown if
he was there in the first place.“? ???
Do I have this straight?
~Grin~
You had it straight several posts back, Mr Collins. What you clearly don't have is the ability to offer a coherent response.
Do let us know when you can logically connect what Insp. Sawyer says over the police radio with your claim that the suspect description he has put out was given to him by Mr Brennan-------------a witness who saw a man, whose clothing he noticed, firing from an upper window of the building
Thumb1:
“Reasonably close”? It was the wrong height, wrong weight, wrong age, and wrong clothing to be Oswald. He also had no reasonable way to estimate those things for a person “taking aim” for the last shot, who would necessarily be crouched down behind boxes.
Wrong height
_Getting anal about an inch of two, I see
would necessarily be crouched down behind boxes.
_IOW, took a knee..
BTW, Brennan saw him from the belt up
Thick neck adds to determination of weight
Bulky open shirt adds to appearance of body size
Harsh light & shadows, smirk, squint, nerves, worry (no tea for two) add age
TAEers don't realize that harsh direct sunshine lightens clothing
(https://i.postimg.cc/Nf83DM2h/68-OSWALD-ALL-LIT-UP-OMEN.png)
billchapman
--------
BONUS
--------
Too bad Oswald got reasonably close to Tippit
It was reasonably close given the circumstances. And he saw him while waiting for the motorcade to arrive from the waist up.
Except it was the guy with the rifle “taking aim” that Brennan claimed to see “from the belt up”. And how did he know that the guy crouched down with a rifle was the same person he saw earlier with no rifle?
I would assume that he still had the same face on. Also, he said he saw him draw the rifle back to his side while looking towards the limo. Then move away from the window.
Don't foget there were four of him. In a gang.
Did you include Lee Harold Oswald? (The one that Ruby shot.)
(https://i.postimg.cc/R0HMhS70/3-OZZIE.png)
billchapman
Gang of 4
Lee Harvey Oswald (aka A.Hidell, O.H. Lee & Dirty Harvey)
A. Hidell (aka Lee Harvey Oswald)
O.H. Lee (aka Lee Harvey Oswald)
Dirty Harvey (aka Lee Harvey Oswald)
Read the testimonies of Eugene Barnett and Forrest Sorrels.
~Grin~
I'm afraid there is nothing in either to suggest that Mr Brennan couldn't remember any clothing, nor that what he said left room for uncertainty as to whether the man he saw firing from an upper window of the Depository had been in the Depository in the first place.
What else you got, Mr Collins?
Thumb1:
Sorry, I have no idea what it is that you are trying to argue about. Maybe you need to state specifically what it is that you are suggesting happened. And specifically what it is that you consider evidence for your claim.
I’m talking about Lee Harold Oswald. The reporter said that name (Lee Harold Oswald) a lot of times on national television. So it just has to be true. ;)
Have you ever sat in Howard Brennan’s spot and tried to distinguish facial features of people at the windows?
Have you ever sat in Howard Brennan’s spot and tried to distinguish facial features of people at the windows?
What happened to the Barnett or Sorrels testimony's accounting for the anomaly between what Mr Brennan saw and remembered and what Insp. Sawyer said on the police radio? Like I thought, you had nothing.
Your belief, Mr Collins, that Mr Brennan is the source of the suspect description that was put out by Insp. Sawyer commits you to an absurd scenario. Of course, you know this----------it's why you keep parrying and deflecting from the problem.
Ladies and Gentlemen, Warren Gullible Productions Proudly Present A Snippet of Collins Fantasy Dialogue...............
SAWYER: Do you remember anything about what the man was wearing?
BRENNAN: No, sir.
SAWYER: So you're absolutely sure you saw him fire from the building?
BRENNAN: Well, I definitely saw him fire from that window, but I couldn't be sure he was actually in the building at the time.
SAWYER: OK, thank you for this information. I'll put out your description on the radio right away.
:D
Here is the pertinent transcript from the DPD radio recordings:
- Dispatcher Yes, 12:44 p.m.
- 9 ( Sawyer) The type of weapon looked like a 30-30 rifle or some type of Winchester.
- Dispatcher 9, it was a rifle?
- 9 A rifle, yes.
- Dispatcher 9, any clothing description?
- 9 About 30, 5'10", 165 pounds.
- Dispatcher Attention all squads, the suspect in the shooting at Elm and Houston is supposed to be an unknown white male, approximately 30, 165 pounds, slender build, armed with what is thought to be a 30-30 rifle, - repeat, unknown white male, approximately 30, 165 pounds, slender build. No further description at this time or information, 12:45 p.m.
- 15 (Captain C.E. Talbert) Could 9 determine whether man was supposed to have been still in the building or was he supposed to have left?
- Dispatcher I didn't know for sure and the witnesses didn't have the description, but we have got that building surrounded by now and we should know something before long.
- 9 (Inspector J.H. Sawyer) On this building, it's unknown whether he is still in the building or not known if he was there in the first place.
- 531 (Sergeant G.D. Henslee) Well, all the information we have receive, 9, indicates that it did come from about the 5th or 4th floor of that building.
Note: there is nothing there regarding a witness that "couldn't remember" clothing. So I really don't know what they were looking at during Sawyer's testimony. (Anyone who might know please feel free to share it here.)
"Pertinent transcript" indeed! :D
Mr. BELIN. What did you say then?
Mr. SAWYER. "The wanted person in this is a slender white male about 30, 5 feet 10, 165, carrying what looks to be a 30-30 or some type of Winchester."
Mr. BELIN. Then the statement is made from the home office, "It was a rifle?"
Mr. SAWYER. I answered, "Yes, a rifle."
Mr. BELIN. Then the reply to you, "Any clothing description?"
Mr. SAWYER. "Current witness can't remember that."
Ergo, Mr Brennan--------who did give a clothing description--------cannot be the source of the suspect description Insp. Sawyer has just given out.
Thankfully, there is no mystery as to what the true source of the suspect description saw:
(https://i.postimg.cc/RZWWqNx7/Sawyer-description-source.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Thumb1:
Transcript of the DPD radio (try reading it, why don't you?).
What’s weird is that nobody tells the dispatcher over the radio that it was a white male, so where did he get that info for the “attention all squads” broadcast of the description?
But, my dear Mr Collins, Insp. Sawyer is reading a transcript of the DPD radio for Mr Belin. Or do you think that, as he is giving his testimony, he has a witness standing beside him and, after that witness' whispering in his ears, informs Mr Belin: "Current witness can't remember that"? (Perhaps you do... nothing would surprise me at this stage.)
And-------to return to your "pertinent transcript"-------if you think that "About 30, 5'10", 165 pounds" is Insp. Sawyer's actual response to the Dispatcher's question, "any clothing description?", then we'll just have to add that to the already impressive tally of absurd things you believe!
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The DPD radio transcript used for Sawyer’s testimony appears to me be incorrect.
What’s weird is that in the dpdtapes transcript nobody tells the dispatcher over the radio that it was a white male, so where did he get that info for the “attention all squads” broadcast of the description?
DPD Sergeant Gerald Dalton Henslee prepared an edited transcript of the channel 1 and 2 transmissions in the first few days of December 1963, and his testimony before the Warren Commission on April 8, 1964 clearly states that the transcripts were made directly from the original recordings – “They were prepared from the tapes on the channel 1. We have a tape on channel 1, and we have a record on channel 2. Two separate tape records, but they are prepared from those records and tapes.” Endnote The record shows that Henslee’s channel 1 transcript was given to Police Chief Jesse Curry on December 5, 1963. Curry gave the transcript to Secret Service Inspector Thomas Kelley, who forwarded it to his superior under date of December 6. The transcript was later entered into the records of the Warren Commission as Sawyer Exhibit B on April 8, 1964 at the time of Henslee’s testimony.
Sawyer Exhibit A page 392:
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh21/html/WH_Vol21_0208b.htm (https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh21/html/WH_Vol21_0208b.htm)
This article is mostly about the channel-1 recording, which is Sawyer exhibit B. But it clearly states that Henslee prepared transcripts of both channels. A look at Sawyer exhibit A shows that it is a transcript of channel 2. Here’s a snip from the article:
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/scally.htm (https://www.jfk-assassination.net/scally.htm)
excerpt from Commission Exhibit 705 (pages 75-76): (note: there is no response concerning current witness can't remember that, nor is there anything about a white male)
Unknown: The type of weapon locked like a 30-30 rifle or some type
of Winchester .
Disp: 9 ; it was a rifle?
9: A rifle, yes .
Disp: 9, any clothing description?
9: Abut 30, 5 1 101", 165 lbs .
Disp: Attention all squads, the suspect in the shooting at
Elm and Houston is supposed to be an unknown white
male, approximately 30, 165 lbs ., slender build, armed
with what is thought to be a 30-30 rifle . - repeat,
unknown white male, approximately 30, 165 lbs ., slender
build . No further description at this time or information, 12:45 p .m.
15: Could 9 determine whether man was supposed to have been
still in the building or was he supposed to have left?
Disp: I didn't know for sure and the witnesses didn't have
the description, but we have got that building secured
by now and we should know something before long .
9: On this building, its unknown Whether he is still in
the building or not or known if he was there in the first
place .
531: Well, all the information we have received, 9, indicates that it did come from about the 5th or 4th floor
of that building.
It is difficult to decide which of the three transcripts included in the Warren Commission Documents to believe. But I think that the Sawyer Exhibits A and B are probably the most accurate. I base that opinion on Henslee reportedly being the radio dispatcher manning channel 2 at that time, and reportedly creating the Sawyer exhibit A&B transcripts from the original recordings. I think Henslee (as someone who regularly dispatched on this radio system) would be more likely to be able to understand the lingo and recognize voices and words and identify the people making the calls than someone who was less familiar with all those items.
Disp: 9, any clothing description?
9: About 30, 5'10", 165 lbs .
:D
Disp: 9, any clothing description?
9: About 30, 5'10", 165 lbs .
:D
I've said many times that the 6.5mm Carcano, a bolt action military style rifle was hidden beneath the pallet in the NW corner of the sixth floor BEFORE the shooting....
A witness (Howard Brennan ?) said that the rifle he saw in the hands of the man who as older than Lee Oswald and dressed in Khaki colored clothing was holding a ..... 30-30 Winchester.
Unknown: The type of weapon locked like a 30-30 rifle or some type
of Winchester .
Disp: 9 ; it was a rifle?
9: A rifle, yes .
Lee Oswald ....Just had 24th birthday... He was 5"9" .... Weighed 131 pounds.....
Who ever the witnesses described, it was NOT Lee Oswald.
(Oswald ) Says... Two fellow colored employees walked by the lunchroom while he was eating lunch. One called Junior and other man short stature .....Says he didn't know their names. Check with Mr Truly to see if he knows the two men.
The two men were Junior Jarman and Harold Norman and they swore that they in fact did walk by the 1st floor lunchroom at about 12:27....
Lee's statement of seeing those two walk by the lunchroom is a rock solid alibi..... But Lee wasn't using it as an alibi when he replied to Fritz's question ..... He was simply stating what he saw while he was there in that lunchroom. He had no idea that Fritz would question Jarman and Norman, or if they would verify that they had in fact walked by the lunchroom.
The witness (NOT Mr Brennan, who was a witness but not the one whose description made Insp. Sawyer put out the broadcast) said he saw a man "carrying what looks to be a 30-30 or some type of Winchester". The witness had seen this man running from the building carrying such a rifle.
Hence Insp. Sawyer does NOT say the suspect "may be carrying the rifle he fired with - a 30-30 or some type of Winchester". He knows the shooter was seen fleeing with his weapon.
(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/oswald-131.jpg)
That doesn’t change the fact that Oswald was 131 pounds.
I get what you’re saying but an estimate of a corpse doesn’t really equate to an estimate of a living person (bloating, rigor mortis, etc).
If a witness told Sawyer that he had seen a man running away from the building with a rifle, why would Sawyer then state that it was unknown if he was still in the building and not known if he was there in the first place? ???
Because Insp. Sawyer understands that it is possible the man, if an employee in the building, tossed the rifle and returned to the building to blend in; but that it is also possible he didn't fire from that building at all. He is cautioning against drawing conclusions.
Hence the response to Insp. Sawyer's broadcast: "531 (Sergeant G.D. Henslee) Well, all the information we have receive, 9, indicates that it did come from about the 5th or 4th floor of that building."
i.e. everything points to the fact that this did come from the building, so we can be confident the man you describe was in that building in the first place (i.e. at the time of the shooting)
Sgt. Henslee would not need to be pointing this out to Insp. Sawyer if the latter had gotten his description from Mr Brennan.
Again, this isn't speculation. Law enforcement knew all about it:
(https://i.postimg.cc/RZWWqNx7/Sawyer-description-source.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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That doesn’t change the fact that Oswald was 131 pounds.
Mr Collins must have missed the word "ESTIMATED" ......because on the dearg certificate the weight is listed as 131 pounds.
You apparently missed my point regarding Walt’s “logic”. He seems to think that if a witness didn’t guess the correct weight, then it couldn’t have been LHO. I wasn’t trying to say LHO actually weighed 150 pounds. Just that the estimated weight is 150 pounds. Get it?
There wasn’t enough time between his death and the autopsy for any of that stuff. He wasn’t even cold yet.
IThere I fixed it (https://ruadventures.com/forum/Smileys/animated/tiphat.gif)herehear we smell toast when close to kicking the bucket.
So, do you really believe that Sawyer would let an alleged suspect, that an alleged unknown witness described as leaving the building with a rifle, just get away by not at least informing his department what this unknown witness said?
And do you really believe that Sawyer would just let an eyewitness (that said he saw a man with a rifle leaving the building) just disappear without at least getting his name and contact information?
Letting him get away? What are you talking about, Mr Collins?
"Attention all squads. Attention all squads. The suspect in the shooting, Elm and Houston, is reported to be an unknown white male, approximately 30, slender build, height, 5 feet 10 inches, weight, 165 pounds, reported to be armed with what is thought to be a .30 caliber rifle, no further description or information at this time"
This is a description of an armed suspect at large whom all squads are to be on the lookout for. (And no particular mention here of the building as the locus of the search-------the man seen running from the building might be anywhere at this time.)
Do you really believe Insp. Sawyer would just invent such an eyewitness and confidentially tell fellow law enforcement about it?
And do you really believe that such an eyewitness, if their contact information were on file, would be seen as a witness friendly to the official 'investigation' and hence one whose testimony was to be proactively chased up on and brought to everyone's attention?
Though maybe it did cross their minds to make Mr Oswald the man seen running from the building. He tossed the rifle, then returned inside, etc. But then what to do about the Carcano..............? :-[
What this is not is a description of a man with a rifle seen leaving the building.
Why do you appear to think that Inspector Sawyer, a seasoned veteran police officer, would inexplicably leave that very important aspect out?
Why do you appear to think that Inspector Sawyer would not (in response to the dispatcher’s statement) explain that a witness reported seeing your mystery man with a rifle leaving the building? Why do you appear to think that Inspector Sawyer would allow the main focus of the search be inside the TSBD if your mystery man with a rifle had been reported to him as leaving the building?
Do you really believe Insp. Sawyer would just invent such an eyewitness and confidentially tell fellow law enforcement about it?
No, I don’t believe that Sawyer told that to anyone at all. The cropped image of a memo that you keep displaying is nothing more than some sixth hand bad information that was incorrect due to having gone through several people who weren’t even at the scene. I have explained this to you before, but you insist on believing your nutty theory.
Is it a description of a man seen firing from an upper window of the Depository?
Why do you appear to think that Inspector Sawyer, a seasoned veteran police officer, would inexplicably leave the all-important fact out that the suspect was seen firing from the window?
Why do you appear to think that Inspector Sawyer, a seasoned veteran police officer, would inexplicably forget Mr Brennan's very important clothing description?
Again, you're rather confused, Mr Collins.
The Dispatcher has to explain to Insp. Sawyer that there is little or no doubt that the shots were indeed fired from an upper window of the building:
"531 (Sergeant G.D. Henslee) Well, all the information we have receive, 9, indicates that it did come from about the 5th or 4th floor of that building."
Why do you think that might be? Hm? And why do you think Insp. Sawyer doesn't reply, "I know that, my witness saw him do it"?
The only thing nutty here, Mr Collins, is your wild theory that a group of law enforcement officials would have the discursive control of a bunch of elementary school kids and allow a man seen firing from an upper window of the Depository morph into a man seen running from the building carrying a 30:30 or some type of Winchester rifle. Amazing how the description-of-suspect details remain identical with the radio broadcast details, yet a radically different description of the context of the sighting manages to creep in. I guess you believe these guys had the cognitive sophistication of law enforcement officials for part of the sentence, but then went all elementary school for the rest.
Your reaction to this official document-----------
(https://i.postimg.cc/RZWWqNx7/Sawyer-description-source.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
-----------is no different to the Warren Gullible reaction to the Stroud letter: you hate what it says, and so issue an irrational and rather desperate declaration that it's not really saying anything valid.
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Letting him get away? What are you talking about, Mr Collins?
"Attention all squads. Attention all squads. The suspect in the shooting, Elm and Houston, is reported to be an unknown white male, approximately 30, slender build, height, 5 feet 10 inches, weight, 165 pounds, reported to be armed with what is thought to be a .30 caliber rifle, no further description or information at this time"
This is a description of an armed suspect at large whom all squads are to be on the lookout for. (And no particular mention here of the building as the locus of the search-------the man seen running from the building might be anywhere at this time.)
Do you really believe Insp. Sawyer would just invent such an eyewitness and confidentially tell fellow law enforcement about it?
And do you really believe that such an eyewitness, if their contact information were on file, would be seen as a witness friendly to the official 'investigation' and hence one whose testimony was to be proactively chased up on and brought to everyone's attention?
Though maybe it did cross their minds to make Mr Oswald the man seen running from the building. He tossed the rifle, then returned inside, etc. But then what to do about the Carcano..............? :-[
Is it a description of a man seen firing from an upper window of the Depository?
Why do you appear to think that Inspector Sawyer, a seasoned veteran police officer, would inexplicably leave the all-important fact out that the suspect was seen firing from the window?
These four broadcasts occurred just prior to the one we are discussing:
Officer 142 - I just talked to a guy up here wno was standing close
to it and the best he could tell it came from the
Texas School Book Dapository Building here with that
Hertz Renting sign on top .
Officer 260 - I have a witness that says that it came from the 5th
floor of the Texas Bock Depository Store .
Officer 22 - Get some men up here to cover this school depository
building . It's believed the shot came from, as you
see it on Elm Street, looking toward the building,
it would be upper right hand corner, second window
from the end .
Officer 137 - We have a man here who says he seen him pull the
weap,;^ back through the window from Southeast corner
of that depcsitnry bud,'ding .
Therefore, the general location of the source of the shots had already been reported. Why do you appear to think the location needed to be repeated again? Sawyer was reporting a description of the suspect.
Why do you appear to think that Inspector Sawyer, a seasoned veteran police officer, would inexplicably forget Mr Brennan's very important clothing description?
I don't think that. I believe that Brennan, in all the excitement and at the moment he was first asked, couldn't remember it (but after a short while and a little thought he did remember it by the time Forrest Sorrels escorted him to the Sheriff's Office). If you consider that Sawyer might have said "currently, witness can't remember..." instead of "current witness can't remember..." it makes better sense to me. The last syllable of "currently might have easily been lost when trying to interpret the recording.
Again, you're rather confused, Mr Collins.
The Dispatcher has to explain to Insp. Sawyer that there is little or no doubt that the shots were indeed fired from an upper window of the building:
"531 (Sergeant G.D. Henslee) Well, all the information we have receive, 9, indicates that it did come from about the 5th or 4th floor of that building."
Why do you think that might be? Hm? And why do you think Insp. Sawyer doesn't reply, "I know that, my witness saw him do it"?
Sawyer was trying to be the initial command center at this very early point in time. He was hearing a lot of different accounts. Many people (including many officers) initially thought the shots came from other places than the TSBD (the bushes, the picket fence, the triple overpass, etc). Those accounts, being listened to by Sawyer just prior to that point in time, would plenty of reasons for Sawyer to have some initial doubts that Brennan's account was accurate.
The only thing nutty here, Mr Collins, is your wild theory that a group of law enforcement officials would have the discursive control of a bunch of elementary school kids and allow a man seen firing from an upper window of the Depository morph into a man seen running from the building carrying a 30:30 or some type of Winchester rifle. Amazing how the description-of-suspect details remain identical with the radio broadcast details, yet a radically different description of the context of the sighting manages to creep in. I guess you believe these guys had the cognitive sophistication of law enforcement officials for part of the sentence, but then went all elementary school for the rest.
I don't have any idea where Batchelor got his information
>:(
There is also this from Amos Euins' WC testimony:
Mr. Euins: No, sir. He was kind of an old policeman. I ran down and got him. And he ran up here.
Mr. Specter: You mean--
Mr. Euins: The Book Depository Building.
Then he called some more cars. They got all the way around the building. And then after that, well, he seen another man. Another man told him he seen a man run out the back.
Mr. Specter: Do you know who that man was who said somebody ran out the back?
Mr. Euins: No, sir. He was a construction man working back there.
Hmmmm...
Is it a description of a man seen firing from an upper window of the Depository?
Why do you appear to think that Inspector Sawyer, a seasoned veteran police officer, would inexplicably leave the all-important fact out that the suspect was seen firing from the window?
These four broadcasts occurred just prior to the one we are discussing:
Officer 142 - I just talked to a guy up here wno was standing close
to it and the best he could tell it came from the
Texas School Book Dapository Building here with that
Hertz Renting sign on top .
Officer 260 - I have a witness that says that it came from the 5th
floor of the Texas Bock Depository Store .
Officer 22 - Get some men up here to cover this school depository
building . It's believed the shot came from, as you
see it on Elm Street, looking toward the building,
it would be upper right hand corner, second window
from the end .
Officer 137 - We have a man here who says he seen him pull the
weap,;^ back through the window from Southeast corner
of that depcsitnry bud,'ding .
Therefore, the general location of the source of the shots had already been reported. Why do you appear to think the location needed to be repeated again? Sawyer was reporting a description of the suspect.
Why do you appear to think that Inspector Sawyer, a seasoned veteran police officer, would inexplicably forget Mr Brennan's very important clothing description?
I don't think that. I believe that Brennan, in all the excitement and at the moment he was first asked, couldn't remember it (but after a short while and a little thought he did remember it by the time Forrest Sorrels escorted him to the Sheriff's Office). If you consider that Sawyer might have said "currently, witness can't remember..." instead of "current witness can't remember..." it makes better sense to me. The last syllable of "currently might have easily been lost when trying to interpret the recording.
Again, you're rather confused, Mr Collins.
The Dispatcher has to explain to Insp. Sawyer that there is little or no doubt that the shots were indeed fired from an upper window of the building:
"531 (Sergeant G.D. Henslee) Well, all the information we have receive, 9, indicates that it did come from about the 5th or 4th floor of that building."
Why do you think that might be? Hm? And why do you think Insp. Sawyer doesn't reply, "I know that, my witness saw him do it"?
Sawyer was trying to be the initial command center at this very early point in time. He was hearing a lot of different accounts. Many people (including many officers) initially thought the shots came from other places than the TSBD (the bushes, the picket fence, the triple overpass, etc). Those accounts, being listened to by Sawyer just prior to that point in time, would plenty of reasons for Sawyer to have some initial doubts that Brennan's account was accurate. Just because Sawyer doesn't broadcast Brennan's name, address, and social security number, doesn't mean that it wasn't Brennan's description.
The only thing nutty here, Mr Collins, is your wild theory that a group of law enforcement officials would have the discursive control of a bunch of elementary school kids and allow a man seen firing from an upper window of the Depository morph into a man seen running from the building carrying a 30:30 or some type of Winchester rifle. Amazing how the description-of-suspect details remain identical with the radio broadcast details, yet a radically different description of the context of the sighting manages to creep in. I guess you believe these guys had the cognitive sophistication of law enforcement officials for part of the sentence, but then went all elementary school for the rest.
I don't have any idea where Batchelor got his information (the memo doesn't say, so it could have been passed through several others before Batchelor got it) but then the message is passed to Vincent Drain, then it was passed to James Malley, then it was passed on to Gordon Shanklin. It appears that all of these transmissions must have been verbal until Shanklin prepares his memo. It doesn't matter whether they were school children or professional law enforcement officers, when a message is verbally passed through that many people, the chances of it being anywhere near correct at the end of the line are slim and none. Getting part of it right and being wrong on other parts would be expected. The only thing that surprises me is that apparently Shanklin put it in writing without verifying it was accurate. But when one considers that Shanklin allegedly ordered the destruction of the LHO note, it shows that he tended to react rather badly under pressure. Many people do just that. No one to my knowledge has confirmed or corroborated the mystery suspect that you so desperately want to believe in, no one. All you have is a memo that seems to include some details that are not accurate. And by the way, I don't believe that I have ever said anything at all about the Stroud letter.
Inspector Sawyer, notably, does not put out any broadcast on that. Yet he has supposedly just spoken with a witness who could speak very specifically to that.
Inpsector Sawyer will have obviously connected the man seen running from the building with a rifle to the man other witnesses had seen at the window. However, such a connection will have been provisional in his seasoned veteran's mind: hence his pointed statement of uncertainty as to whether the man seen running from the building had been in that building in the first place. And hence the Dispatcher's pointed words in response to him: "Well, all the information we have receive, 9, indicates that it did come from about the 5th or 4th floor of that building."
~Grin~
Keep reaching, Mr Collins!
You're right in one respect: Insp. Sawyer has heard different (and probably conflicting) reports. But he knows for sure that a man was seen running from the building with a rifle in his hand, and that the witness can give a good description. While the obvious conclusion is that this man was the man others report as having seen firing from an upper window of the building, this is far from the only possible conclusion. The man might have been handed the weapon by the real shooter, who might still be in the building. He might have had the weapon dropped down to him from a high window. The man might have fired from west of the Depository and run behind it for cover, before running on further. He might have been but one of several shooters.
All Insp. Sawyer knows for sure is that a man seen running with a rifle in his hand shortly after the shooting is most definitely a suspect and is at large------------and so he puts out the description. That description comes from a witness who has no clothing description, and thinks the rifle was a "30.30 or some type of Winchester rifle"------------i.e. a witness other than Mr Brennan
Don't be silly! He spoke with Insp. Sawyer. If his source had been someone other than Insp. Sawyer, dontcha think he would have checked with Insp. Sawyer before passing on such bombshell information to Special Agent Drain? Being some ways past elementary school level of training and all?
Mr. BELIN. All right, now, sir; you did broadcast that description out of this
man?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, that’s correct.
Mr. BELIN. That shows on the radio log. Where did you get that description
from?
Mr. SAWYER. We are talking now about the colored man?
Mr. BELIN. No, I am talking about the one that is on Sawyer’s Deposition
Exhibit A. that shows you at 12 :43.
Mr. SAWYER. That description came to me mainly from one witness who
claimed to have seen the rifle barrel in the fifth or sixth floor of the building,
and claimed to have been able to see the man up there.
Mr. BELIIP. Do you know this person’s name?
Mr. SAWYER. I do not.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know anything about him, what he was wearing?
Mr. SAWYER. Except that he was-I don’t remember what he was wearing.
I remember that he was a white man and that he wasn’t young and he wasn’t
old. He was there. That is the only two things that I can remember about
him.
Mr. BELIN. What age would you categorize as young?
322
Mr. SAWYER. Around 35 would be my best recollection of it, but it could be a
few years either way.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if he was tall or short, or can’t YOU remember
anything about him?
Mr. SAWYER. I can’t remember that much about him. I was real hazy about
that.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where he said he was standing when he saw
the person with the rifle?
Mr. SAWYER. I didn’t go into detail with him except that from the best of
my recollection, he was standing where he could have seen him. But there
were too many people coming up with questions to go into detail. I got the
description and sent him on over to the Sheriff’s Office.
Mr. BELIN. Inspector, do you remember anything else about this person who
you say gave you the primary description?
Mr. SAWYER. No, I do not, except that I did send him with an escort to the
Sheriff’s Office to give fuller or more complete detail.
.
.
.
Mr. BELIN. What about this person, who I will call the primary description
witness, did he say what side of the building it was on?
Mr. SAWYER. He went and pointed out the window which I now note to be
the sixth floor, but when I talked to him, I thought it was the fifth floor.
Mr. BELIN. The fifth floor?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. What side of the building?
Mr. SAWYER. On the south side of the building, and the southeast corner.
Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to any witness, or did any witness talk to you who
claimed to see any rifle or portion of a rifle at any place other than a window
of Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. SAWYER. No, did any
Mr. BELIN. Did any officer give you any information about talking to anyone
who saw a rifle or a portion of a rifle at any place other than a window in the
Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. SAWYER. No, not to my knowledge.
Sawyer makes all of this very clear in his testimony. I have bolded the parts that spell out that apparently it was Brennan who gave Sawyer the description that Sawyer broadcast about 12:44. So your silly theory that it was some mystery witness who supposedly saw a man with a rifle going out the back of the building who gave Sawyer that description has been shown to be completely false.QuoteMr. BELIN. All right, now, sir; you did broadcast that description out of this
man?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes, that’s correct.
Mr. BELIN. That shows on the radio log. Where did you get that description
from?
Mr. SAWYER. We are talking now about the colored man?
Mr. BELIN. No, I am talking about the one that is on Sawyer’s Deposition
Exhibit A. that shows you at 12 :43.
Mr. SAWYER. That description came to me mainly from one witness who
claimed to have seen the rifle barrel in the fifth or sixth floor of the building,
and claimed to have been able to see the man up there.
Mr. BELIIP. Do you know this person’s name?
Mr. SAWYER. I do not.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know anything about him, what he was wearing?
Mr. SAWYER. Except that he was-I don’t remember what he was wearing.
I remember that he was a white man and that he wasn’t young and he wasn’t
old. He was there. That is the only two things that I can remember about
him.
Mr. BELIN. What age would you categorize as young?
322
Mr. SAWYER. Around 35 would be my best recollection of it, but it could be a
few years either way.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if he was tall or short, or can’t YOU remember
anything about him?
Mr. SAWYER. I can’t remember that much about him. I was real hazy about
that.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where he said he was standing when he saw
the person with the rifle?
Mr. SAWYER. I didn’t go into detail with him except that from the best of
my recollection, he was standing where he could have seen him. But there
were too many people coming up with questions to go into detail. I got the
description and sent him on over to the Sheriff’s Office.
Mr. BELIN. Inspector, do you remember anything else about this person who
you say gave you the primary description?
Mr. SAWYER. No, I do not, except that I did send him with an escort to the
Sheriff’s Office to give fuller or more complete detail.
.
.
.
Mr. BELIN. What about this person, who I will call the primary description
witness, did he say what side of the building it was on?
Mr. SAWYER. He went and pointed out the window which I now note to be
the sixth floor, but when I talked to him, I thought it was the fifth floor.
Mr. BELIN. The fifth floor?
Mr. SAWYER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. What side of the building?
Mr. SAWYER. On the south side of the building, and the southeast corner.
Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to any witness, or did any witness talk to you who
claimed to see any rifle or portion of a rifle at any place other than a window
of Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. SAWYER. No, did any
Mr. BELIN. Did any officer give you any information about talking to anyone
who saw a rifle or a portion of a rifle at any place other than a window in the
Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. SAWYER. No, not to my knowledge.
What does this discussion have to do with Lee Oswald's statement to Captain Fritz? Lee told Fritz that he was in the 1st floor lunchroom when JFK passed by the TSBD..... And while he was in that lunchroom he saw Jarman and Norman walk by the lunchroom. The time they walked by was 12:27.....
Spectators on the streets in front of the TSBD saw a man who was wearing khaki colored clothing and holding a rifle, standing behind a 6th floor window at the time that Lee Oswald was in the 1st floor lunchroom....
Sawyer makes all of this very clear in his testimony.
(Oswald ) Says... Two fellow colored employees walked by the lunchroom while he was eating lunch. One called Junior and other man short stature .....Says he didn't know their names. Check with Mr Truly to see if he knows the two men.
The two men were Junior Jarman and Harold Norman and they swore that they in fact did walk by the 1st floor lunchroom at about 12:27....
Lee's statement of seeing those two walk by the lunchroom is a rock solid alibi..... But Lee wasn't using it as an alibi when he replied to Fritz's question ..... He was simply stating what he saw while he was there in that lunchroom. He had no idea that Fritz would question Jarman and Norman, or if they would verify that they had in fact walked by the lunchroom.
As I'm sure you know, Mr Cakebread, the Warren Gullibles have tried to push back on this with the following argument:
Mr Oswald, from the 6th floor, noticed Messrs Jarman & Norman down on the street walk down towards the rear of the building. A little later, he heard their voices a floor below. Later, in custody, he exploited his inference that they had come in by the back door.
The problem with this is a guilty Mr Oswald cannot have known for certain that the domino room did not contain several people at this time. So describing such is a big risk. Yet he confidently describes a domino room he had to himself. V. telling-------------and that the 'investigating' authorities understood this is proved by the fact that they inflated his actual claim (saw Junior & short guy walking through) into 'ate lunch with Junior & Shorty'.
If I were a Warren Gullible I would supplement my Jarman/Norman theory by postulating a live video feed of the domino room that evil Mr Oswald had
Thumb1:
(Oswald ) Says... Two fellow colored employees walked by the lunchroom while he was eating lunch. One called Junior and other man short stature .....Says he didn't know their names. Check with Mr Truly to see if he knows the two men.
The two men were Junior Jarman and Harold Norman and they swore that they in fact did walk by the 1st floor lunchroom at about 12:27....
Lee's statement of seeing those two walk by the lunchroom is a rock solid alibi..... But Lee wasn't using it as an alibi when he replied to Fritz's question ..... He was simply stating what he saw while he was there in that lunchroom. He had no idea that Fritz would question Jarman and Norman, or if they would verify that they had in fact walked by the lunchroom.
Here's what I don't get..
He estimates the time was 12.25-12.28 when they arrived at the 5th floor windows, just minutes before the shots.
The entire faculty of the center and their wives were invited to the luncheon in a huge building downtown. There were hundreds of tables, and President Kennedy was supposed to address that huge audience of notables from Dallas at 12:30. People were there at 12 o’clock; then it became 12:30. Somebody came to the podium and said that people should start eating, that there would be a delay in Kennedy’s appearance.https://magazine.utdallas.edu/the-jfk-connection/
Here's what I don't get..
JFK was scheduled to speak at the Dallas Trade Mart at 12:30 PM.
An announcement came there that the motorcade was running behind the timetable---https://magazine.utdallas.edu/the-jfk-connection/
Why would those guys take a chance of missing the parade [as scheduled] by abandoning their spot and walking all the way around to the rear of the building and then taking some pokey elevator to the upper floors?
Also...how would a snipers' nest shooter [who had no such information about the delay] know when to occupy their position?
The newspapers having also published the agenda...the motorcade should then have been through Dealey Plaza at perhaps between 11:50-12:10ish---allowing 5-10 minutes to arrive at the Trade Mart parking lot and JFK to have time to arrive at the podium.
Only a team with radio communication would be able to relay the actual accurate progress of the motorcade.
Here's what I don't get..
JFK was scheduled to speak at the Dallas Trade Mart at 12:30 PM.
An announcement came there that the motorcade was running behind the timetable---https://magazine.utdallas.edu/the-jfk-connection/
Why would those guys take a chance of missing the parade [as scheduled] by abandoning their spot and walking all the way around to the rear of the building and then taking some pokey elevator to the upper floors?
Also...how would a snipers' nest shooter [who had no such information about the delay] know when to occupy their position?
The newspapers having also published the agenda...the motorcade should then have been through Dealey Plaza at perhaps between 11:50-12:10ish---allowing 5-10 minutes to arrive at the Trade Mart parking lot and JFK to have time to arrive at the podium.
Only a team with radio communication would be able to relay the actual accurate progress of the motorcade.
The progress of the motorcade was being reported in real time over the broadcast and police radios.Prove it. Yes ...for once in your life cite proof of what you claim. I will provide the sources---
Prove it. Yes ...for once in your life cite proof of what you claim. I will provide the sources---
Give us the time stamps there. I only hear music and commercials until the shooting is reported.
Same there just usual police racket until all hell breaks loose.
Otherwise stop making stuff up...it's embarrassing.
Mr. SPECTER - When, after you first observed him did you have a conversation about him with your wife?
Mr. ROWLAND - Right afterwards. There was--just before I observed him there was a police motorcycle parked just on the street, not in front of us, just a little past us, and the radio was on it giving the details of the motorcade, where it was positioned, and right after the time I noticed him and when my wife was pointing this other thing to me, I don't remember what that was, the dispatcher came on and gave the position of the motorcade as being on Cedar Springs. This would be in the area of Turtle Creek, down in that area.
I can't remember the street's name but I know where it is at. And this was the position of the motorcade and it was about 15 or 16 after 12.
So, this communication must be on the DPD radio recordings. Where is it?
The progress of the motorcade was being reported in real time over the broadcast and police radios.
Jerry made the baseless claim that no one could possibly have known that the motorcade was running behind schedule. Of course, most such events do run a few minutes late.BS: False and untrue followed by incorrect and distorted.
Also...how would a snipers' nest shooter [who had no such information about the delay] know when to occupy their position?
The newspapers having also published the agenda...the motorcade should then have been through Dealey Plaza at perhaps between 11:50-12:10ish---allowing 5-10 minutes to arrive at the Trade Mart parking lot and JFK to have time to arrive at the podium.
Only a team with radio communication would be able to relay the actual accurate progress of the motorcade.
No idea not having searched them for this information. Have you? Jerry made the baseless claim that no one could possibly have known that the motorcade was running behind schedule. Of course, most such events do run a few minutes late. I simply cited the fact that a witness in Dealey Plaza (one often cited by CTers) also indicated that the progress of the motorcade could be heard over the police radios. Jerry was apparently unaware of this fact since he went into hysterics suggesting that I had made this up. I then provided the specific witness statement that I had made reference (and which Jerry apparently was unaware of).
We are playing whack a mole again. The original claim was that it was not possible to know the location/timing of the motorcade as it made its way to Dealey Plaza. Then it was deemed a lie to suggest that there was reporting of the progress of the motorcade (as you might expect so that those responsible for security had a head's up as it approached their location). The witness testimony indicates that the motorcade was being reported over the police radio and reports of its progress could be heard in Dealey Plaza as it approached. And, of course, the motorcade was the top news story that day in Dallas and was widely covered on broadcast TV and radio. In addition, the crowd and motorcade noise were audible as the motorcade progressed through the city. You could hear it approaching. There was nothing impossible about anticipating the arrival of the motorcade in Dealey Plaza or knowing that it would be a few minutes behind schedule (as most such events are). And even if this baseless claim had any validity (i.e. there would be no way for Oswald to know the exact time the motorcade would pass the building) that does nothing to preclude him from still being the assassin. Instead down the rabbit hole we go.
BS: False and untrue followed by incorrect and distorted.
Martin Weidmann provided that specific witness statement and Mr Smith wants to take credit for his move.
Here is what I actually stated based on logic---
And, of course, the motorcade was the top news story that day in Dallas and was widely covered on broadcast TV and radio.
Sure, it was.... there just wasn't any live minute by minute coverage.
More rabbit hole nonsense. Why would it have to be minute to minute? The arrival and motorcade departure time from Love Field was covered. Most of the delay occurred with JFK pausing to shake hands with the crowd. That would have been known via local broadcasts. The route and approximate timeframe were published. The police radios in DP were announcing the progress of the motorcade. It would be expected to be a few minutes later than anticipated. Oswald had eyes and ears. Another witness indicated that he could hear the progress of the motorcade through Dallas. You could hear the roar of the crowd and noise as the motorcade approached. And EVEN if Oswald had no idea when the motorcade would be there, nothing about that precludes him from being the assassin.The ramblings of a certified manic neurotic ::)
More rabbit hole nonsense. Why would it have to be minute to minute? The arrival and motorcade departure time from Love Field was covered. Most of the delay occurred with JFK pausing to shake hands with the crowd. That would have been known via local broadcasts. The route and approximate timeframe were published. The police radios in DP were announcing the progress of the motorcade. It would be expected to be a few minutes later than anticipated. Oswald had eyes and ears. Another witness indicated that he could hear the progress of the motorcade through Dallas. You could hear the roar of the crowd and noise as the motorcade approached. And EVEN if Oswald had no idea when the motorcade would be there, nothing about that precludes him from being the assassin.
Mr. Belin.
Now, Mrs. Reid, you left lunch about what time?
Mrs. Reid.
Well, I left, I ate my lunch hurriedly, I wasn't watching the time but I wanted to be sure of getting out on the streets in time for the parade before he got there, and I called my husband, who works at the records building, and they had a radio in their office and they were listening as the parade progressed and he told me they were running about 10 minutes late.
Her husband worked in the nearby records building and very well might have been listening to the DPD radio channel two broadcasts.
Well, that must be it, because there were no radio stations broadcasting live to provide details of the motorcade.
Hmmmm indeed, Mr O'Meara. I guess this nukes Mr Collins' claim that "No one to my knowledge has confirmed or corroborated the mystery suspect that you so desperately want to believe in, no one."
We await Mr Collins' 'explanation': Euins wasn't too long out of elementary school...................... :D
More rabbit hole nonsense. Why would it have to be minute to minute?
Have it your way; there was absolutely no live coverage on radio or television of the motorcade. None.
Most of the delay occurred with JFK pausing to shake hands with the crowd. That would have been known via local broadcasts.
Except for the fact there were no such live broadcasts.
The police radios in DP were announcing the progress of the motorcade. It would be expected to be a few minutes later than anticipated. Oswald had eyes and ears.
Yes he did and he must have had super powers as well, if he could hear a radio broadcast on a police motorbike passing by for 6 floors up at the TSBD.
And EVEN if Oswald had no idea when the motorcade would be there, nothing about that precludes him from being the assassin.
It also doesn't place him on the 6th floor.... Bonnie Ray Williams was up there until about 12:20 / 12:25 and he saw or heard nobody.
The motorcade was due to arrive at the Trade Mart at 12:30 and was delayed by some 15 minutes. Yet, somehow, Oswald, who could not know of the delay, manages to get to the 6th floor, without being seen, some 10 minutes after the motorcade had been scheduled to pass by and still gets there on time to actually see it pass by. Boy, he really did have super powers, didn't he? :D
Her husband worked in the nearby records building and very well might have been listening to the DPD radio channel two broadcasts.Let's pull even more possibilities out of thin air....why not?
Bonnie Ray Williams was up there until about 12:20 / 12:25 and he saw or heard nobody.
_ Williams: The books at the time were stacked so high. I could see only in the path that I was standing-as I remember, I could not possibly see anything to the east side of the building.
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh3/pdf/WH3_Williams.pdf
IIRC, BR also mentioned other times that he might have headed down to the 5th, like 12:10, 12:15
Nice try, but no cigar
First of all, make up your mind. On the one hand you have Jarman claiming he heard the bold action and the shells dropping on the floor, while he was one floor below yet on the other hand you seem to rule out (or ignore, rather) that Bonnie Ray Williams wouldn't have heard anybody moving around on the wooden floor.
Secondly, Bonnie Ray Williams went down to the fifth floor and when he got there Jarman and Norman were already there. They did not get there until about 5 minutes prior to the shooting.
Try sticking to the script, will ya?
Let's pull even more possibilities out of thin air....why not?
For those interested, here is a link to the DPD transcripts-----
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0208b.htm
First of all, make up your mind. On the one hand you have Jarman claiming he heard the bold action and the shells dropping on the floor, while he was one floor below yet on the other hand you seem to rule out (or ignore, rather) that Bonnie Ray Williams wouldn't have heard anybody moving around on the wooden floor.
_My post did not address anything about Jarman.
TO WIT:
=================================
Bonnie Ray Williams was up there until about 12:20 / 12:25 and he saw or heard nobody.
_ Williams: The books at the time were stacked so high. I could see only in the path that I was standing-as I remember, I could not possibly see anything to the east side of the building.
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh3/pdf/WH3_Williams.pdf
IIRC, BR also mentioned other times that he might have headed down to the 5th, like 12:10, 12:15
==================================
And, I don’t need to look at transcripts. Channel 2 includes many reports regarding the current progress of the motorcade.
There may be readers here that aren't as omniscient as you.
For those interested, here is a link to the DPD transcripts-----
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0208b.htm
Mr. Belin.
Now, Mrs. Reid, you left lunch about what time?
Mrs. Reid.
Well, I left, I ate my lunch hurriedly, I wasn't watching the time but I wanted to be sure of getting out on the streets in time for the parade before he got there, and I called my husband, who works at the records building, and they had a radio in their office and they were listening as the parade progressed and he told me they were running about 10 minutes late.
I'm sorry but not surprised that you failed to understand the logic of my reply.
IIRC, BR also mentioned other times that he might have headed down to the 5th, like 12:10, 12:15
Excellent. So there is witness evidence that the police radios in Dealey Plaza were reporting the motorcade progress (as any reasonable person would expect), the broadcast radios were reporting, the route and approximate timeline was published in the paper, and there was TV coverage of the beginning of the motorcade at Love Field (where the delay began). As a result, it would not have taken a top secret team to know that the motorcade was running a few minutes behind schedule. Something that occurs in almost any such event.
Is this ramble supposed to somehow prove that Lee Oswald would have been aware of any of this?He could hear the police scanner from the lunchroom?
He could hear the police scanner from the lunchroom?
He could hear the police scanner from the lunchroom?
Are we moving on from your previous false claim that there was no real time broadcast of the motorcade progress to something new? This statement also contains a false premise since Oswald wasn't in the lunchroom. He could certainly hear the police broadcasts over a motorcycle radio through an open window in the building. He was not the top floor of a skyscraper but the 6th floor of a building that was in close proximity to the motorcycle radio heard by Rowland. Did he? No idea but it wasn't necessary since his every movement is not known. We know only that he was in the 6th floor window at 12:30 since that is when he pulled the trigger of his rifle at that moment.
This statement also contains a false premise since Oswald wasn't in the lunchroom.
Really? And you know this how? Even more importantly, can you prove where he was?
He could certainly hear the police broadcasts over a motorcycle radio through an open window in the building.
"An" open window? What window would that be?
And what kind of amazing super power is this? He can hear police broadcasts from a motorcycle radio as the bike passes by? Wow!
He was not the top floor of a skyscraper but the 6th floor of a building that was in close proximity to the motorcycle radio heard by Rowland.
Too bad you just can't prove that!
No idea but it wasn't necessary since his every movement is not known.
His every movement isn't known, but you know nevertheless that he wasn't in the Domino room but on the 6th floor instead. You got super powers also? :D
We know only that he was in the 6th floor window at 12:30 since that is when he pulled the trigger of his rifle at that moment.
No. We don't know that and you can't prove it. Jesse Curry stated:
"No one has ever been able to put him (Oswald) in the Texas School Book Depository with a rifle in his hand."
Yet, here we have Richard Smith who knows better..... Hilarious!
Huh? I'm not sure what you are babbling about here. Rowland indicated that he heard the motorcycle radio report around 12:15. It was not a police bike driving through Dealey Plaza but one parked there. What open window? HA HA HA. Take a guess.
Again:
Mr. ROWLAND - Right afterwards. There was--just before I observed him there was a police motorcycle parked just on the street, not in front of us, just a little past us, and the radio was on it giving the details of the motorcade, where it was positioned, and right after the time I noticed him and when my wife was pointing this other thing to me, I don't remember what that was, the dispatcher came on and gave the position of the motorcade as being on Cedar Springs. This would be in the area of Turtle Creek, down in that area.
I can't remember the street's name but I know where it is at. And this was the position of the motorcade and it was about 15 or 16 after 12.
Are we moving on from your previous false claim that there was no real time broadcast of the motorcade progress to something new? This statement also contains a false premise since Oswald wasn't in the lunchroom. He could certainly hear the police broadcasts over a motorcycle radio through an open window in the building. He was not the top floor of a skyscraper but the 6th floor of a building that was in close proximity to the motorcycle radio heard by Rowland. Did he? No idea but it wasn't necessary since his every movement is not known. We know only that he was in the 6th floor window at 12:30 since that is when he pulled the trigger of his rifle at that moment.
What part of "when he got there Jarman and Norman were already there" did you not understand?
What part of my focus on BRW and his reasons for not being not able to see the SE section do you not get?
What makes you think we don't understand that pathetic "focus on BRW"?
Huh? I'm not sure what you are babbling about here. Rowland indicated that he heard the motorcycle radio report around 12:15. It was not a police bike driving through Dealey Plaza but one parked there. What open window? HA HA HA. Take a guess.
Again:
Mr. ROWLAND - Right afterwards. There was--just before I observed him there was a police motorcycle parked just on the street, not in front of us, just a little past us, and the radio was on it giving the details of the motorcade, where it was positioned, and right after the time I noticed him and when my wife was pointing this other thing to me, I don't remember what that was, the dispatcher came on and gave the position of the motorcade as being on Cedar Springs. This would be in the area of Turtle Creek, down in that area.
I can't remember the street's name but I know where it is at. And this was the position of the motorcade and it was about 15 or 16 after 12.
What I also focused on was your statement that BRW saw nothing
He also couldn't see the SE corner... Why didn't you include that?
Because it doesn't matter that he doesn't see anything, when you ignore what he would/could have heard.
Oswald wasn't in the lunchroom.
Then please explain how he knew that Jarman and Norman walked past that lunchroom at 12:27. And if you still can't believe the facts, then please provide a plausible explanation how Lee could have known that there was nobody in that lunchroom who could have refuted his statement of "I was in the first floor lunchroom when the president past by the TSBD."
Huh? I'm not sure what you are babbling about here.
No surprise there, as you are clueless more often than not.
Rowland indicated that he heard the motorcycle radio report around 12:15. It was not a police bike driving through Dealey Plaza but one parked there.
Wow, this gets better and better. Rowland testified he was on Elm and Main, which is some distance away from the TSBD. So, even if there was a police bike parked there, there is no possibility whatsoever that anybody inside the TSBD could have heard any message coming over the police radio. You've just shot down your entire argument as well as demonstrated beyond doubt that you can not prove a damned thing you claim. But then, hey, that's nothing new......
Arnold Rowland was about 280 feet away from the 6th-floor SW window (about 2/3 further away than Brennan was from the SE window). Guess which witness' testimony the critics parade as unimpeachable?
Why are you dragging in that 'could/would' aspect when, again, I'm only addressing the fact that BRW testified that he could not see anything in the SE area because of the stacks of boxes. You only claimed that he didn't see anything, without including the reasons why.
To me, that looks like an attempt to mislead.
It also doesn't place him on the 6th floor.... Bonnie Ray Williams was up there until about 12:20 / 12:25 and he saw or heard nobody.
We have beat that one to death. Oswald had worked in the building for weeks. He had observed the typical patterns of his coworkers. For example, who had lunch where and with whom. It wouldn't take Nostradamus to figure this out. And, of course, a suspect does not obtain an alibi by claiming to see others. He obtains an alibi when others can confirm his presence. None did.
Lastly, I thought CTers questioned the accuracy of Oswald's statements while in custody? Does that only apply when he said something incriminatory? That's a rhetorical question since I know the answer.
Oh, but it is an attempt to mislead on your part. By just saying that BRW said he could not see anything you are ignoring the fact that he most certainly would have heard anybody moving around on that old wooden floor.
You only claimed that he didn't see anything, without including the reasons why.
No I didn't. I said;
Wrong. Elm and Main are parallel streets. Rowland's testimony is confusing, but he was standing on Houston. Obviously in plain sight and close proximity to the TSBD since he references the clock and seeing a person with a gun in the building. About 150 feet away. He also says that the police motorcycle that he makes reference was "not in front of us, just a little past us." Meaning it was even closer to the TSBD. No one is saying that Oswald definitively heard the police reports of the motorcade progress. Only Oswald could know that. He certainly could have, however. He also had a good idea from the media reports of the timing of the motorcade. He had eyes and ears to hear the approach of the motorcade. Most such events run a few minutes late. What has been demonstrated by the totality of the evidence is that your desperate attempt to exonerate Oswald was entirely false and based on a false premise (i.e. no real time information of the motorcade progress). There was real time reporting of the motorcade progress. Witnesses confirm that both police and radio broadcasts noted the progress (as anyone might expect given the circumstances).
"The Rowlands stood at the west entrance of the Dallas County Records Building on Houston Street, about 150 feet from the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository."
…you are ignoring the fact that he most certainly would have heard anybody moving around on that old wooden floor.
This wouldn’t even be relevant if LHO was already situated in the sniper’s nest before BRW came back to the sixth floor, and was keeping out of sight and making no noticeable noises.
The king of BS strikes again!
Oswald had worked in the building for weeks. He had observed the typical patterns of his coworkers. For example, who had lunch where and with whom.
Even if true, it's utterly meaningless as Jarman and Norman going up to the 5th floor to watch the motorcade was never part of any "typical pattern"
And, of course, a suspect does not obtain an alibi by claiming to see others. He obtains an alibi when others can confirm his presence. None did.
More BS. An alibi can be obtained in many ways and does not require others to see the suspect. All that is needed is information of any kind that confirms the suspect was or must have been at a particular location at a particular time. Oswald seeing Jarman and Norman walk towards the elevators at a time when they did in fact were walking there is sufficient confirmation of his presence at that location
Lastly, I thought CTers questioned the accuracy of Oswald's statements while in custody?
How can anybody question the accuracy of Oswald's statements when there is no verbatim record of what he actually said? Questioning the veracity of the reports is more likely.
"If" ?
Wrong. Elm and Main are parallel streets.
Yes, I merely quoted Rowland from his testimony.
Rowland's testimony is confusing, but he was standing on Houston.
Yes, Houston is the street that connects Elm and Main.
About 150 feet away. He also says that the police motorcycle that he makes reference was "not in front of us, just a little past us." Meaning it was even closer to the TSBD. No one is saying that Oswald definitively heard the police reports of the motorcade progress.
If nobody is saying that, what's the point of bringing it up in the first place?
Btw, to argue that somebody on the 6th floor of a building can hear broadcasts originating from a police motorbike parked some 150 feet away is just plain idiotic.
What has been demonstrated by the totality of the evidence is that your desperate attempt to exonerate Oswald was entirely false and based on a false premise (i.e. no real time information of the motorcade progress).
Don't you ever get tired of the crap you write here every day? Nothing of that kind has been demonstrated.
There was real time reporting of the motorcade progress.
Only on DPD radio
Witnesses confirm that both police and radio broadcasts noted the progress (as anyone might expect given the circumstances).
Once again; there were no live radio broadcasts providing details of the progress of the motorcade. Stop making stuff up!
Let's say I know that two guys named Otto and Martin have lunch most days at the McDonald's on "Elm and Main." I claim that I saw them there on a particular day. And they entered through the front door. It turns out they were actually there because this is what they do. Do I have an alibi if no one sees me there or otherwise confirms my story and there is evidence that I was elsewhere? Of course not. Oswald made up a flimsy story. CTers then grasp at details like he saw them "walking towards the elevators" as though that would take Nostradamus to predict. LOL. This is all the more humorous since you apparently accept on this basis that Oswald had an alibi. Bringing you out of the CTer closet despite your protestations that you are not a CTer. If you buy this flimsy story as an alibi for Oswald (as you suggest here), then you are a CTer by implication. And if you doubt "what he actually said" then why are you relying on it to establish an alibi?
LOL. You are running like Jessie Owens. You cited Rowland's testimony and suggested he was too "far away" because he was on something called Elm and Main. There is no such location. This after suggesting that no one could hear the police radio of a motorcycle driving through DP. Not apparently realizing it was parked there. You disputed that there was any real time reporting of the motorcade progress but now apparently accept that there was police radio broadcasts of the motorcade progress. And split bizarre hairs between this and "reporting of the motorcade progress." LOL. All the more bizarre since Rowland indicates he could actually hear the police radio updates of the motorcade in Dealey Plaza. Only a short distance from the TSBD and not "far away." What evidence do you have that this could not be heard through an open window on the 6th floor of a nearby building? Do you know the volume of the police radio broadcast. It would seemingly be pretty high to hear over a motorcycle engine and crowd noise. You have stated this as a fact. Here is the witness testimony (once again) confirming that there were reports of the motorcade delay:
Mrs. Reid.
Well, I left, I ate my lunch hurriedly, I wasn't watching the time but I wanted to be sure of getting out on the streets in time for the parade before he got there, and I called my husband, who works at the records building, and they had a radio in their office and they were listening as the parade progressed and he told me they were running about 10 minutes late.
and they had a radio in their office and they were listening as the parade progressed and he told me they were running about 10 minutes late.
Try to keep up. This has already been discussed. It could well be that they were listening to police radio. Nowhere does it say they were actually listening to a live radio broadcast.
LOL. You have twisted this like a pretzel and moved the goal posts out of the stadium and down the street. ""It could well be"! You really believe someone was listening to a police radio in their office instead of a regular radio? How were they doing that? At least you are now acknowledging that there was a real time progress report being made of the motorcade. Ironically, the very one that we know could be heard via the police radio in Dealey Plaza.
LOL. You are running like Jessie Owens. You cited Rowland's testimony and suggested he was too "far away" because he was on something called Elm and Main. There is no such location. This after suggesting that no one could hear the police radio of a motorcycle driving through DP. Not apparently realizing it was parked there. You disputed that there was any real time reporting of the motorcade progress but now apparently accept that there was police radio broadcasts of the motorcade progress. And split bizarre hairs between this and "reporting of the motorcade progress." LOL. All the more bizarre since Rowland indicates he could actually hear the police radio updates of the motorcade in Dealey Plaza. Only a short distance from the TSBD and not "far away." What evidence do you have that this could not be heard through an open window on the 6th floor of a nearby building? Do you know the volume of the police radio broadcast. It would seemingly be pretty high to hear over a motorcycle engine and crowd noise. You have stated this as a fact. Here is the witness testimony (once again) confirming that there were reports of the motorcade delay:
Mrs. Reid.
Well, I left, I ate my lunch hurriedly, I wasn't watching the time but I wanted to be sure of getting out on the streets in time for the parade before he got there, and I called my husband, who works at the records building, and they had a radio in their office and they were listening as the parade progressed and he told me they were running about 10 minutes late.
You really believe someone was listening to a police radio in their office instead of a regular radio? How were they doing that?
Just like they are still doing now. Listening to police radio is and always has been a hobby for many people. And when you know the President will be passing by the building where you work, why not simply take a scanner to work to keep track on the motorcade?
Ironically, the very one that we know could be heard via the police radio in Dealey Plaza.
A broadcast originating from a received on a parked motorbike some 150 feet away can not be heard inside the TSBD, no matter how often you repeat this BS
You are running like Jessie Owens.
It's not Martin who is running , Mr "Smith" .... And if you didn't have your head so deeply inserted, you "might" be able to see how stupid your attempts at refuting Martin are.
It's not me refuting him. It's the witnesses to the events. This story keeps evolving and changing. Now we are being told that when someone claims to have listened to the radio in their office, they actually meant that they had a police scanner in their work place to listen too as a hobby! HA HA HA. In 1963. Not much getting done in that work place with the old police scanner squawking all day long.
Whew. So your story now is that in 1963 someone had a police "scanner" in their office as a hobby to listen to the police broadcasts? If you want to engage in this kind of fantasy, why not entertain the baseless possibility that Oswald had such a scanner? And you don't believe a police motorcycle radio can be heard from 150 feet away even though Rowland indicated he could hear the broadcast down the street.
It's not me refuting him. It's the witnesses to the events. This story keeps evolving and changing. Now we are being told that when someone claims to have listened to the radio in their office, they actually meant that they had a police scanner in their work place to listen too as a hobby! HA HA HA. In 1963. Not much getting done in that work place with the old police scanner squawking all day long.
Are we moving on from your previous false claim that there was no real time broadcast of the motorcade progress to something new?
This statement also contains a false premise since Oswald wasn't in the lunchroom.
We know only that he was in the 6th floor window at 12:30 since that is when he pulled the trigger of his rifle at that moment.
What part of my focus on BRW and his reasons for not being not able to see the SE section do you not get?
No one is saying that Oswald definitively heard the police reports of the motorcade progress. Only Oswald could know that. He certainly could have, however.
He also had a good idea from the media reports of the timing of the motorcade.
So your story now is that in 1963 someone had a police "scanner" in their office as a hobby to listen to the police broadcasts?
Stop misrepresenting what I said.
And you don't believe a police motorcycle radio can be heard from 150 feet away even though Rowland indicated he could hear the broadcast down the street.
Rowland wasn't 150 feet away from the motorcycle and he most certainly wasn't on the 6th floor of a building with all, except one, windows closed.
Let's say I know that two guys named Otto and Martin have lunch most days at the McDonald's on "Elm and Main." I claim that I saw them there on a particular day. And they entered through the front door. It turns out they were actually there because this is what they do.
If you buy this flimsy story as an alibi for Oswald (as you suggest here), then you are a CTer by implication.
LOL. You have twisted this like a pretzel and moved the goal posts out of the stadium and down the street. ""It could well be"! You really believe someone was listening to a police radio in their office instead of a regular radio?
Whew. So your story now is that in 1963 someone had a police "scanner" in their office as a hobby to listen to the police broadcasts? If you want to engage in this kind of fantasy, why not entertain the baseless possibility that Oswald had such a scanner?
I believe that a woman's (Mrs Reid?) husband called her at about 12:25 and told her where the parade was at that time. Didn't she testify to that point?
You suggested that Rowland was on something called Elm and Main and "far away" from the TSBD. LOL. Now that you realize that was false you are still claiming a radio broadcast from a police motorcycle can't be heard in a wide open space even just 150 feet away? Why do you keep repeating the same baseless claim that it was not possible to hear the police radio on the 6th floor with the window open? Sound waves go up you know. There is no scientific prohibition on someone sitting in a building with the window open from hearing the same noise that an individual on the street is hearing. Good grief. And your ever evolving story about the radio is exactly as I stated it. You suggested that the radio referenced by Mrs. Reid in her husband's office was, for some inexplicable reason, a police radio to overhear the motorcade progress report! HA HA HA. How exactly did this office worker obtain this police radio or scanner or Magic 8 ball or whatever you are suggesting is being referenced by the term "radio," How exactly did this office worker obtain this police radio or scanner Magic 8 ball or whatever you are suggesting is being referenced by the term "radio," This is hilarious Bigfoot nonsense.
Whew. So your story now is that in 1963 someone had a police "scanner" in their office as a hobby to listen to the police broadcasts? If you want to engage in this kind of fantasy, why not entertain the baseless possibility that Oswald had such a scanner? And you don't believe a police motorcycle radio can be heard from 150 feet away even though Rowland indicated he could hear the broadcast down the street.Really? Just a reminder----
Really? Just a reminder----
Mr. ROWLAND - Right afterwards. There was--just before I observed him there was a police motorcycle parked just on the street, not in front of us, just a little past us,.....
You suggested that Rowland was on something called Elm and Main and "far away" from the TSBD. LOL. Now that you realize that was false
There was nothing false about it. It was what Rowland testified verbatim! He clearly wasn't aware of all the street names.
you are still claiming a radio broadcast from a police motorcycle can't be heard in a wide open space even just 150 feet away?
Because it can't. Period. Prove me wrong or shut up!
Sound waves go up you know.
Hilarious.... they also drown in all the other street noise
There is no scientific prohibition on someone sitting in a building with the window open from hearing the same noise that an individual on the street is hearing. Good grief.
So prove it..... go on then!
You suggested that the radio referenced by Mrs. Reid in her husband's office was, for some inexplicable reason, a police radio to overhear the motorcade progress report! HA HA HA.
Why do you insist in making a fool of yourself over and over again. Why is it impossible that somebody brought a police radio scanner to work to follow the progress of the motorcade?
How exactly did this office worker obtain this police radio or scanner
By buying one in one of the many shops that sell them. You clearly don't understand that just like train or plane spotters quite a few people have a police scanner to follow what is going on. There is nothing odd about it.
This is hilarious Bigfoot nonsense.
Yes, that's a good way to describe your post.
You cited Rowland's testimony that he was on Elm and Main to conclude that he was "far away" from the TSBD. There is no such location. Therefore, somehow concluding it was too far away from the TSBD to hear the police radio broadcast demonstrates a profound bias on your part. Can you understand that? You concluded that a nonexistent location was too "far away" to hear the radio. LOL. Then once you sorted out his actual location, you started making baseless claims like 150 feet is too far away to hear a radio broadcast in an open space. A completely baseless claim. Then you asked me to disprove your baseless claim. Wow. Then it got even better. After claiming there was no radio broadcast of the motorcade progress, you concluded that when Mrs. Reid's husband informed her that he had been listening to the radio and was informed that the motorcade was running behind schedule, that his office "radio" was actually a police scanner! HA HA HA. This is 1963. Do you believe he had access to a time machine and ordered it from Amazon? Another completely baseless and ridiculous interpretation of a 1963 office radio.
How about---The snipers yelled down at the cop and asked him to turn his radio up?
You cited Rowland's testimony that he was on Elm and Main to conclude that he was "far away" from the TSBD. There is no such location.
Mr "Smith" your desperation obvious. Whether Rowland knew the names of the streets or simply mis-spoke is irrelevant because he pointed out on a map the place where he and his wife were standing. And you're a utter fool if you actually believe that anybody in the TSBD could have heard the radio on the DPD motorcycle that was parked on Houston street, about half way between Elm and Main streets.
You cited Rowland's testimony that he was on Elm and Main to conclude that he was "far away" from the TSBD. There is no such location.
Mr "Smith" your desperation obvious. Whether Rowland knew the names of the streets or simply mis-spoke is irrelevant because he pointed out on a map the place where he and his wife were standing. And you're a utter fool if you actually believe that anybody in the TSBD could have heard the radio on the DPD motorcycle that was parked on Houston street, about half way between Elm and Main streets.
Yes, only about 150 feet from the TSBD. Not far at all from where Old Ozzie was sitting behind his open window. He could hear the noise from the street below him. Did he hear the police progress reports? No idea. Only Oswald knows for sure. No reason that he needed too, though, since he knew the approximate time and most such events do run behind schedule. We have certainly come a long way from the original claim that only a top-secret team could know the motorcade progress since there was no live updates to debating how far away such a broadcast in Dealey Plaza could be heard and what radio station Mr. Reid was listening to get such an update. And there was TV coverage of the motorcade beginning at Love Field where most of the delay occurred.
This is turning into another Adams-on-the-stairs connivance. The critics contend Adams' laterday CT-spun account precludes Oswald using the stairs immediately after the shooting. Now Oswald needs a police radio or be near one to gauge whether the motorcade was still on.
But if Adams really went down the stairs as early as she claimed, it would only mean she was ahead of Oswald. Same with the radio straw man claim; Oswald in the SN wouldn't need it. He could see the streets still sealed off for the motorcade, policemen at the intersections and crowds waiting.
The Shroud letter is hearsay with no specifics. Styles said it was more like minutes than seconds when they left the window and even then they first went to the passenger elevator.
For Richard, it's only a possibly:
"No one is saying that Oswald definitively heard the police reports of the motorcade
progress. Only Oswald could know that. He certainly could have, however."
"He could hear the noise from the street below him. Did he hear the police progress
reports? No idea. Only Oswald knows for sure. No reason that he needed too, though,"
The straw-man goes back six days ado to Skeptic-Tank's "Only a team with radio communication would be able to relay the actual accurate progress of the motorcade." Just now, Richard wrote: "We have certainly come a long way from the original claim that only a top-secret team could know the motorcade progress"
Oswald from the SN window most certainly could have seen Norman and Jarman standing together on the sidewalk below. He then heard the two arrive below his window some minutes before the motorcade arrived. They were talking and throwing open windows. Unless Oswald had sight and hearing issues, I don't see any problem with that proposal.
Ouija board please tell us which station Mr. Reid was listening to on Nov. 22, 1963. LOL.
But if Adams really went down the stairs as early as she claimed, it would only mean she was ahead of Oswald.
Same with the radio straw man claim; Oswald in the SN wouldn't need it. He could see the streets still sealed off for the motorcade, policemen at the intersections and crowds waiting.
The Shroud letter is hearsay with no specifics. Styles said it was more like minutes than seconds when they left the window and even then they first went to the passenger elevator.
Oswald from the SN window most certainly could have seen Norman and Jarman standing together on the sidewalk below.
He then heard the two arrive below his window some minutes before the motorcade arrived.
If you're going to convince anyone that a sidewalk cannot be seen, you'll have to take a video of a guy actually attempting to peer over the edge. AND NO FAIR USING A GUY WITH VERTIGO HAHA
Let's make a deal; you provide me with evidence that Oswald or anybody else stuck his head and torso out of the 6th floor window of the TSBD, just minutes before the motorcade arrived, and I will show you a video that even then that person still couldn't have seen the sidewalk running directly next to the building.
So, let's have that evidence..... Oh wait... I forgot for a moment who I am talking to.
The normal procedure is to run tests first to see if is doable in he first place, such as did the subject use a hand-mirror to stick out the window at some point, for instance. After all, lots of ladies to powder their noses and misplace their hand mirrors.
I forgot for a moment who I am talking to
_YOU don't talk TO anybody. You talk AT them
stuck his head and torso out
_No torso required. Just head and neck.
Torso needed later for when Oswald gets what he deserved.
Meantime
(https://i.postimg.cc/vZtxT8hX/SE-WINDOW-LEDGE.png)
The ledge barely clears the building. No peering-down issue there.
(https://i.postimg.cc/jjj2jHLd/KNEELER.png)
Nothing to stop a willing participant from snuggling up to the brickwork, taking a knee,
and flopping forward for an easy peer over the edge
So what's the problem?
Since there was a CROWD of people below the SE window, why would Oswald just coincidentally have singled out and watched Norman and Jarman below moving around?
Why (and how?) would Oswald be watching persons directly below the SE window when it seems to be that he kept himself hidden from view 12:25-12:29:30 given no evidence in the Bronson film (12:25) nor the Hughes film (12:29:30, (the JFK limo approaching the TSBD)of anyone visible in the SE window?
Wouldn’t Oswald be more focused on watching for when the motorcade lead car would be entering the Dealey plaza than watching anyone immediately below the SN window ( hence Oswald having to expose himself in the window to look down?)
Even if for some reason Oswald was able to see and took interest in watching 2 black guys below, is it certain he was able to see them
Go around the corner vs enter TSBD from the front entrance?
If Oswald could possibly have seen Norman and Jarman go around the corner, how does he know they didn’t come back to the front and go into the TSBD via front entrance?
How probable to have heard the rear elevator coming up to the 5th floor if Oswald is in the 6th floor SN (barracked within a box wall no less) with all the outside ambient noise?
The only probable possibility it seems is that Oswald could have heard the voices of Jarman and Norman about 12;28 when they got to their respective 5th floor windows )
Seems a bit risky that Oswald would have ventured singling out 2 persons just upon hearing their voices when it’s doubtfully that he could know for certain if they ever passed by the Domino room at all.
In fact, Oswald offering the Domino room as the location he was at when he heard/saw ANYONE is taking a big risk that the Domino room was vacant of some other employee(s) whom would readily refute Oswald’s account.
For me this is a scenario of improbability which is compounded by the improbability of the “escape down the stairs” past Mrs Garner unseen as well as the amount of time required just to get out the SN ( given the Bob Jackson /Malcolm Couch time of spotting the rifle and then seeing it slowly withdrawn, plus Tom Aleya’s description of the box wall barricade being totally enclosing the SN ( very narrow gao).
The normal procedure is to run tests first to see if is doable in he first place, such as did the subject use a hand-mirror to stick out the window at some point, for instance. After all, lots of ladies to powder their noses and misplace their hand mirrors.
Hilarious... so now, you've got Oswald using a hand-mirror to find out who was on the sidewalk, just minutes before the motorcade arrived? Get help, please....
stuck his head and torso out
_No torso required. Just head and neck.
Torso needed later for when Oswald gets what he deserved.
Have it your way. Show me the evidence that Oswald or anybody else stuck his head and neck (you've clearly never been to the TSBD) out of the 6th floor window of the TSBD, just minutes before the motorcade arrived. Go on then....
Meantime
(https://i.postimg.cc/vZtxT8hX/SE-WINDOW-LEDGE.png)
The ledge barely clears the building. No peering-down issue there.
Comedy gold and utter stupidity combined. He shows a video which proves that from the 6th floor window you can only see the sidewalk at the other side of Elm street and not the one directly in front of the TSBD. Great stuff..... Thumb1:
So what's the problem?
Other than that you are a complete idiot? Nothing much... you've proven my point. You can not show that anybody on the 6th floor could have seen a person standing on the sidewalk next to the building.
I forgot for a moment who I am talking to
_YOU don't talk TO anybody. You talk AT them
Nah, I will talk to anybody who is capable of having a normal reasoned conversation. I only talk at people who are beyond help.
The normal procedure is to run tests first to see if is doable in he first place, such as did the subject use a hand-mirror to stick out the window at some point, for instance. After all, lots of ladies to powder their noses and misplace their hand mirrors.
Hilarious... so now, you've got Oswald using a hand-mirror to find out who was on the sidewalk, just minutes before the motorcade arrived? Get help, please....
stuck his head and torso out
_No torso required. Just head and neck.
Torso needed later for when Oswald gets what he deserved.
Have it your way. Show me the evidence that Oswald or anybody else stuck his head and neck (you've clearly never been to the TSBD) out of the 6th floor window of the TSBD, just minutes before the motorcade arrived. Go on then....
Meantime
(https://i.postimg.cc/vZtxT8hX/SE-WINDOW-LEDGE.png)
The ledge barely clears the building. No peering-down issue there.
Comedy gold and utter stupidity combined. He shows a video which proves that from the 6th floor window you can only see the sidewalk at the other side of Elm street and not the one directly in front of the TSBD. Great stuff..... Thumb1:
So what's the problem?
Other than that you are a complete idiot? Nothing much... you've proven my point. You can not show that anybody on the 6th floor could have seen a person standing on the sidewalk next to the building.
I forgot for a moment who I am talking to
_YOU don't talk TO anybody. You talk AT them
Nah, I will talk to anybody who is capable of having a normal reasoned conversation. I only talk at people who are beyond help.
Since there was a CROWD of people below the SE window, why would Oswald just coincidentally have singled out and watched Norman and Jarman below moving around?
Why (and how?) would Oswald be watching persons directly below the SE window when it seems to be that he kept himself hidden from view 12:25-12:29:30 given no evidence in the Bronson film (12:25) nor the Hughes film (12:29:30, (the JFK limo approaching the TSBD)of anyone visible in the SE window?
Wouldn’t Oswald be more focused on watching for when the motorcade lead car would be entering the Dealey plaza than watching anyone immediately below the SN window ( hence Oswald having to expose himself in the window to look down?)
Even if for some reason Oswald was able to see and took interest in watching 2 black guys below, is it certain he was able to see them
Go around the corner vs enter TSBD from the front entrance?
If Oswald could possibly have seen Norman and Jarman go around the corner, how does he know they didn’t come back to the front and go into the TSBD via front entrance?
How probable to have heard the rear elevator coming up to the 5th floor if Oswald is in the 6th floor SN (barracked within a box wall no less) with all the outside ambient noise?
The only probable possibility it seems is that Oswald could have heard the voices of Jarman and Norman about 12;28 when they got to their respective 5th floor windows )
Seems a bit risky that Oswald would have ventured singling out 2 persons just upon hearing their voices when it’s doubtfully that he could know for certain if they ever passed by the Domino room at all.
In fact, Oswald offering the Domino room as the location he was at when he heard/saw ANYONE is taking a big risk that the Domino room was vacant of some other employee(s) whom would readily refute Oswald’s account.
For me this is a scenario of improbability which is compounded by the improbability of the “escape down the stairs” past Mrs Garner unseen as well as the amount of time required just to get out the SN ( given the Bob Jackson /Malcolm Couch time of spotting the rifle and then seeing it slowly withdrawn, plus Tom Aleya’s description of the box wall barricade being totally enclosing the SN ( very narrow gao).
Nah, I will talk to anybody who is capable of having a normal reasoned conversation
_Your idea of a reasoned conversation is to tell someone that BRW didn't see anyone on the 6th, and then ignore the part about the stacks of boxes.
Other images from the same video show views that are taken too far away from the window to be able to lean the camera over the edge
As for the images I posted, they are samples (showing sizes, angles) I would post to a skilled photographer.
If I was there, I would whip out my iPhone, lean over the edge, and do it myself.
Thanks so much for your always-useful input.
So, if Oswald didn't have a hand held mirror, he just could have used his iPhone? Is that what you are now saying?
Hilarious...
No. I told you that BRW did not see or hear anybody. Your idea of a reasoned conversation is to ignore the "hear" part and just ramble on about boxes blocking the view.
Nope, just another one of his too numerous to count lies…
No. I told you that BRW did not see or hear anybody. Your idea of a reasoned conversation is to ignore the "hear" part and just ramble on about boxes blocking the view.
Besides, even if BRW was where he said he was, there was nothing blocking him from seeing Rowland's gunman in the SW window.
"Lie" defined as contradicting something that WC-evangelists want to believe is true.
Rowland said a lot of things
A "Lie" is defined as contradicting something that WC-evangelists want to believe is true.
Excellent, Mr Iacoletti..... I would like to add an adjective... A lie is defined as contradicting something that the gutless WC-evangelists want to believe is true.
The WC apologists simply lack the guts to accept facts that clearly refute their cherished beliefs....
The WC apologists simply lack the guts to accept facts that clearly refute their cherished beliefs
_ Oswald Arse Kissers are, well, Oswald Arse Kissers. And here we have one kissing the arse of another. YIKES!
Oswald got what he deserved. Ya can't get water hot enough to wash the stench off that piece of road-kill.
Booyah, bleach-boyz.
So did BRW.
Can anybody make any sense out of the disjointed maniacal ramblings of Mr. Chapman?
Rock Solid Alibi? ???
Nope, just another one of his too numerous to count lies…
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/leeslies.htm (https://www.jfk-assassination.net/leeslies.htm)
Captain Fritz: You were working in the book depository today. Is that right?
Lee Oswald:....Yes...
Captain Fritz; Were you there when the president's motorcade went by?
Lee Oswald:.... Yes...
Captain Fritz:...Where were you when the president went by the book depository?
Lee Oswald:... I was eating my lunch in the 1st floor lunchroom.
From Cap't Fritz's notes ( which he swore he never took) ....
The following is not verbatim.....
(Oswald ) Says... Two fellow colored employees walked by the lunchroom while he was eating lunch. One called Junior and other man short stature .....Says he didn't know their names. Check with Mr Truly to see if he knows the two men.
The two men were Junior Jarman and Harold Norman and they swore that they in fact did walk by the 1st floor lunchroom at about 12:27....
Lee's statement of seeing those two walk by the lunchroom is a rock solid alibi..... But Lee wasn't using it as an alibi when he replied to Fritz's question ..... He was simply stating what he saw while he was there in that lunchroom. He had no idea that Fritz would question Jarman and Norman, or if they would verify that they had in fact walked by the lunchroom.
BRW was boxed in; you can't keep ignoring that
> IMO you are here to mislead people and nothing more
All for a cold-blooded killer
I missed the 'hear' memo
Bonnie Ray Williams was up there until about 12:20 / 12:25 and he saw or heard nobody.
_ Williams: The books at the time were stacked so high. I could see only in the path that I was standing-as I remember, I could not possibly see anything to the east side of the building.
> BRW was listening for his friends to appear
Jarman, Arce and Norman were outside until 12:20-12:25
They left and, still outside, went around to the back and took an elevator upstairs
Are you suggesting that persons of interest (or even uninteresting persons) can be eyeballed from a speeding elevator (or even not-all-that-speedy an elevator)?
The WC apologists simply lack the guts to accept facts that clearly refute their cherished beliefs
_ Oswald Arse Kissers are, well, Oswald Arse Kissers. And here we have one kissing the arse of another. YIKES!
Oswald got what he deserved. Ya can't get water hot enough to wash the stench off that piece of road-kill.
Booyah, bleach-boyz.
Can anybody make any sense out of the disjointed maniacal ramblings of Mr. Chapman?
This is turning into another Adams-on-the-stairs connivance. The critics contend Adams' laterday CT-spun account precludes Oswald using the stairs immediately after the shooting. Now Oswald needs a police radio or be near one to gauge whether the motorcade was still on.
But if Adams really went down the stairs as early as she claimed, it would only mean she was ahead of Oswald. Same with the radio straw man claim; Oswald in the SN wouldn't need it. He could see the streets still sealed off for the motorcade, policemen at the intersections and crowds waiting.
Can anybody make any sense out of the disjointed maniacal ramblings of Mr. Chapman?
You forgot 2 commas
Too eager to run-your-mouth I guess
Arnie provided geolocation choices re the window = Arnie provided choices re his shooter's distance from the window of approx 10-12 feet and approx 3-5 feet
Jarman, Arce and Norman were outside until 12:20-12:25
They left and, still outside, went around to the back and took an elevator upstairs
You're still not witty
'lift-off' times = BRW's guesses of what time he got up & departed to the 5th
Who cares what BRW "guessed"? He didn't leave until after Norman and Jarman got to the fifth floor.
I agree completely. Oswald did not need access to any real time reports of the motorcade's progress to assassinate JFK. Just noting that such information was available to rebut the baseless claim that it was not possible to known it was running late. Remarkably, we know that even in Dealey Plaza itself police motorcycle radios were apparently reporting the motorcade's progress and could be overheard by those in the vicinity. The motorcade could also be heard as it made its way down Main via the crowd noise and engine noise from the motorcycles etc.
You forgot 2 commas
Arce didn't go upstairs. Are you determined to continually embarrass yourself?
Smooth move, Ex-lax.... But the debate is not about Arnold Rowland.... It's a rebuttal of the insane proposal that it's possible for a person on the 6th floor of the TSBD to hear and understand a police radio message from a radio that was a half block away.
And your ramblings are still disjointed COMMA and maniacal.
But thanks for your useless contributions.
Arce didn't go upstairs. Are you determined to continually embarrass yourself?
So Arce was a major player in the assassination was he?
Mr. BALL. Where were you standing when you heard the shots?
Mr. ARCE. I was standing in front of the Texas School Book Depository. I was on that grassy area part in front.
Mr. BALL. You were not on the sidewalk?
Mr. ARCE. No, I was on the sidewalk, then I walked up to the grass to get a higher view. and still couldn't see.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear shots?
Mr. ARCE. Yeah.
Mr. BALL. How many?
Mr. ARCE. Three.
Mr. BALL. Where did you make out the direction of the sound?
Mr. ARCE. Yeah, I thought they came from the railroad tracks to the west of the Texas School Book Depository.
But the debate is not about Arnold Rowland.... It's a rebuttal of the insane proposal that it's possible for a person on the 6th floor of the TSBD to hear and understand a police radio message from a radio that was a half block away.The location of the Rowlands [it states] The limo beside them.
And this is coming from a guy who is complaining that others can not have a normal reasoned conversation with him.
Go figure.
Can anybody make any sense out of the disjointed maniacal ramblings of Mr. Chapman?
The location of the Rowlands [it states] The limo beside them.A screenshot from that approx location---
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b1/42/fa/b142fa71370be839de78d3796bb546e5.jpg)
Point out where I complained that 'others cannot have a normal reasoned conversation' with me.
So Arce was a major player in the assassination was he?
Why? So, you can have another abnormal unreasoned conversation about a subject that has nothing to do with this case?
Smooth move, Ex-lax.... But the debate is not about Arnold Rowland.... It's a rebuttal of the insane proposal that it's possible for a person on the 6th floor of the TSBD to hear and understand a police radio message from a radio that was a half block away.
How exactly is it insane? The motorcycle wasn't even parked where Rowland was standing. It wasn't the only police motorcycle there. We know from Rowland's testimony that the radio could be heard by bystanders in the area. Do you know how loud the radio broadcast was? Presumably pretty high to be heard over a motorcycle engine. Again, though, this whole issue is one of little relevance since Oswald required no real time progress report of the motorcade. He knew the approximate time for media reports. Most such events run behind schedule. And the crowd and motorcade noise could be heard as the motorcade advanced. Giving anyone in DP advanced notice of its approach.
Notice how “Richard” never addresses any objections, counterpoints, or corrections and instead just repeats the same talking points? He’s a one-way propaganda machine.
I can’t imagine he is being paid. Somebody who was being paid would be a lot more competent.
Mr. BALL. Where did you make out the direction of the sound?No comment there from the Warren-ites?
Mr. ARCE. Yeah, I thought they came from the railroad tracks to the west of the Texas School Book Depository.
Amazing. If Richard's many crazy "explanations" are to believed, Oswald must have been some kind of super man, who managed to get to the 6th floor or hide there without Bonnie Ray Williams, or anybody else, seeing or hearing him. Who could hear a broadcast on a radio of a motorbike parked some 150 feet away, from the 6th floor of a building, who could see Jarman and Norman on a sidewalk right below his window without sticking his head out of the window and who managed to run down noisy stairs without anybody seeing or hearing him.
They should make a movie about a guy like that....
Why? So, you can have another abnormal unreasoned conversation about a subject that has nothing to do with this case?
Catch me up with which subject you are talking about. Pretty sure I was reminding you to include the boxes.
Now this should help you remember some of what he had for lunch
(https://i.postimg.cc/Dwf762Dc/272-CHICKEN-DELIGHT.png)
billchapman
Bingo. Textbook troll.
And this is coming from a guy who is complaining that others can not have a normal reasoned conversation with him.
Go figure.
FFS. iF you want to figure out if BRW heard anything, read his testimony
Oswald.... He was perfectly capable of assassinating JFK...How do you know this?
He knew the time and route of the motorcade.How do you know that?
Mr. BALL - Where were you when you talked to him?So Oswald was just shining Jarman on?
Mr. JARMAN - In between two rows of bins.
Mr. BALL - On what floor?
Mr. JARMAN - On the first floor.
Mr. BALL - And what was said by him and by you?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, he was standing up in the window and I went to the window also, and he asked me what were the people gathering around on the corner for, and I told him that the President was supposed to pass that morning, and he asked me did I know which way he was coming, and I told him, yes; he probably come down Main and turn on Houston and then back again on Elm. Then he said, "Oh, I see," and that was all.
Being a few minutes late was not a factor to him.Gaslighting Warren-ites feel at liberty to just make stuff up to justify their preconceived conclusion.
Already know. He didn't hear anything. That was the point.
He knew the time and route of the motorcade.
Now this should help you remember some of what he had for lunch
Please keep your “creativity” in its own thread, where it can be more easily ignored.
Pretty sure you mistakely thought you were reminding me to include the boxes.
Pretty sure you misled by omission
He’s a one-way propaganda machine.
Yes, I believe you've smacked the ten penny squarely.... Long ago I pegged our "Mr Smith" as agent who is paid to spread the official propaganda of LBJ's "special select Blue Ribbon Committee" and attempt to defuse the bombshells that threaten blow up that official LBJ approved pile of BS
How do you know this? How do you know that?So Oswald was just shining Jarman on?
Gaslighting Warren-ites feel at liberty to just make stuff up to justify their preconceived conclusion.
I'm an "agent who is paid to spread official propaganda" on behalf of the WC which hasn't existed in decades? Wow. That almost tops your claim that the red rings on the TSBD windows were some type of signal. I hope you don't actually believe any of that nonsense as it would be indicative of a person who is several bricks short of a load.
The Lies that were dumped on us by LBJ's "Select Blue Ribbon Committee" Of Venerated honorable pillars of the community still live on, and those lies are supported and propagated by agents of the government. How many pieces of silver have you garnered Mr "Smith"?
I'm an "agent who is paid to spread official propaganda" on behalf of the WC which hasn't existed in decades? Wow. That almost tops your claim that the red rings on the TSBD windows were some type of signal. I hope you don't actually believe any of that nonsense as it would be indicative of a person who is several bricks short of a load.
How many bricks are in a load?
Only government agents know for sure.
Why don't Richard and you go together to a mental health professional and tell them you both believe everything on Fox News and the alt-right?
You think there is some doubt that Oswald knew the time and route of the motorcade even though people were standing along the road in front of his own building and most coworkers had exited to watch the motorcade? And it was widely publicized in the local press and TV for days leading up to the event. Frazier indicated that the TSBD employees had been given permission to stand outside and watch the motorcade. No talk among his fellow workers about the event? You think Oswald was like Mr. Magoo from the cartoon and was the only person in Dallas unaware of the motorcade? What do you think he believed had happened to all his coworkers? Weak and desperate sauce.
You think there is some doubt that Oswald knew the time and route of the motorcade even though people were standing along the road in front of his own building and most coworkers had exited to watch the motorcade? And it was widely publicized in the local press and TV for days leading up to the event. Frazier indicated that the TSBD employees had been given permission to stand outside and watch the motorcade. No talk among his fellow workers about the event? You think Oswald was like Mr. Magoo from the cartoon and was the only person in Dallas unaware of the motorcade? What do you think he believed had happened to all his coworkers? Weak and desperate sauce.
A wise man once said that he had more respect for an armed robber than a politician.Politicians are lawyers that couldn't make it as an attorney.
Mr Ford.... You're presenting waaaaaaay too much commonsense ..... Anybody with an IQ greater than a turnip would know that the idea that Lee ( or anybody but a person with a neck like a giraffe ) couldn't stick his head out of a sixth floor window and see Jarman and Norman standing in front of the TSBD. And then devine that they were contemplating going to the 5th floor to watch the parade.
You think there is some doubt that Oswald knew the time and route of the motorcade
Would this be the time the motorcade was supposed to pass by or the time it actually passed by?
LOL. How about answering the question? It wasn't like the motorcade was hours late. Most such events run slightly behind schedule. The weak and pathetic argument that Oswald had to know in real time the EXACT minute the motorcade would move through DP to pull this off is laughable. He knew the scheduled time. The motorcade was a few minutes late. Big deal. And until someone explains his rifle and fired shell casings being found on the 6th floor in a way that exonerates him, nothing else matters. That evidence links him to this crime beyond any doubt.
[
Hardly conclusive. Even if it was his rifle, that still does not mean he shot it on 11/22 and those shells could have come from bullets that were fired at any time.
You are making two classic mistakes over and over again. (1) you are jumping to conclusions not supported by the evidence and (2) you lack completely the capacity to look at evidence objectively. Instead of making any conclusive points you just produce rant after rant without actually saying anything even remotely significant.
LOL. How about answering the question? It wasn't like the motorcade was hours late. Most such events run slightly behind schedule. The weak and pathetic argument that Oswald had to know in real time the EXACT minute the motorcade would move through DP to pull this off is laughable. He knew the scheduled time. The motorcade was a few minutes late. Big deal. And until someone explains his rifle and fired shell casings being found on the 6th floor in a way that exonerates him, nothing else matters. That evidence links him to this crime beyond any doubt.
This is classic contrarian rabbit hole. You engage in all manner baseless and unsupported speculation about Oswald's movements in the minutes leading up to the assassination, reject documented evidence of his ownership of the rifle, make idiotic claims like he must have had superpowers to hide behind some boxes, but then lecture others on jumping to conclusion! HA HA HA. Comedy gold considering the source. Absent a time machine, there literally couldn't be ANY MORE evidence of Oswald's ownership of the rifle. And we are supposed to believe that the presence of Oswald's rifle in the building, and on very floor from which witnesses saw a rifle at the moment of the assassination, with fired bullet casings from that rifle by that very window has some contrary explanation. Oswald himself lies about ownership of this rifle. He provides no explanation for its presence on the floor. But we are supposed to ignore all this and entertain some wild, baseless speculation that some unspecified person obtained access to Oswald's rifle, carried it to his place of employment, assassinated JFK and left it there! Unreal. Talk about jumping to conclusions. And Oswald helps to frame himself by fleeing the scene, getting his pistol, and killing and a police officer. No normal person with a functioning brain can believe this fantasy scenario. You can't possibly believe that unless you are delusional. Rather, this seems like some type of game to play the contrarian and string out the discussion. You know enough about the facts and circumstance to understand that Oswald was the assassin.
The only thing that matters is that Oswald got what he deserved
Your (Richard) assumptions are not evidence
Show us where the Patton gang assumed anything
Show us what crime this “Patton gang” witnessed.
You engage in all manner baseless and unsupported speculation about Oswald's movements in the minutes leading up to the assassination
Coming from you, this is hilarious. The one actually speculating is you. You claim he was on the 6th floor but haven't got a shred of evidence for that claim.
There is not a "shred" of evidence he was on the 6th floor? LOL. Round and round we go down the rabbit hole. Let's see. Just his rifle, fired bullet casings from that rifle, his prints on the SN boxes by that window. a long bag with his prints next to the 6th floor window from which the shots were fired. Oswald apparently couldn't get to the SN and remain unseen and escape the floor without having "superpowers" while some other person could. Laughable. Weak defense attorney nonsense to defend a guilty client.
Impasse - a situation in which no progress is possible.
IF the rifle was his.... How does that prove that Lee was there at 12:30 that day?
Pretty sure a headless chicken makes more sense than you.
There is not a "shred" of evidence he was on the 6th floor? LOL. Round and round we go down the rabbit hole. Let's see. Just his rifle, fired bullet casings from that rifle, his prints on the SN boxes by that window. a long bag with his prints next to the 6th floor window from which the shots were fired. Oswald apparently couldn't get to the SN and remain unseen and escape the floor without having "superpowers" while some other person could. Laughable. Weak defense attorney nonsense to defend a guilty client.
Impasse - a situation in which no progress is possible.
Says the self-appointed prophet and decider.
You seem to be the one doing the assuming. Where did I say that what they saw was a crime? What they saw was a man walking along Patton carrying a handgun. Why, he even slowed down to exchange pleasantries with one of the locals.
If I ever commit a crime, please let Walt be on the jury! A crime was committed on Nov. 22 at 12:30 with a rifle. Witnesses saw a rifle pointed out the 6th floor window of the TSBD at 12:30. A rifle was found on that floor. That rifle belonged to Oswald per the Klein's documentation confirming that a rifle with a specific serial number was sent to Oswald's PO Box. Only Oswald's print were found on that rifle. Oswald's prints also are found on the very boxes next to that window. Fired bullet casings from that rifle were found by the window from which the shots were fired. Oswald flees the scene. Denies owning any rifle. Can't explain the presence of his rifle at the crime scene. Murders a police officer less than an hour later. Has no credible alibi for the moment of the assassination. Conclusion guilty.
No 'Prophet-eering' necessary when this image shows giraffe-necked persons
are not needed to peer 'overboard' so-to-speak.
If I ever commit a crime, please let Walt be on the jury! A crime was committed on Nov. 22 at 12:30 with a rifle. Witnesses saw a rifle pointed out the 6th floor window of the TSBD at 12:30. A rifle was found on that floor. That rifle belonged to Oswald per the Klein's documentation confirming that a rifle with a specific serial number was sent to Oswald's PO Box. Only Oswald's print were found on that rifle. Oswald's prints also are found on the very boxes next to that window. Fired bullet casings from that rifle were found by the window from which the shots were fired. Oswald flees the scene. Denies owning any rifle. Can't explain the presence of his rifle at the crime scene. Murders a police officer less than an hour later. Has no credible alibi for the moment of the assassination. Conclusion guilty.
No 'Prophet-eering' necessary when this image shows giraffe-necked persons
are not needed to peer 'overboard' so-to-speak.
(https://i.postimg.cc/xCwsKYgv/275-GIRAFFE-MAN.png)
billchapman
The window is not the window at the SE corner of the sixth floor.... That SE corner window was blocked by boxes of books....That's why Sergeant Hill is seen at a different window..... The point remains....Only giraffe man could have stuck his head out of that SE corner window.
No, Euins didn’t say anything about Oswald.
Yawn
Yes, it’s so boring when clowns speak with authority about stuff they know so little about.
Oswald apparently couldn't get to the SN and remain unseen and escape the floor without having "superpowers" while some other person could.
Only if you assume that shots were actually fired from the 6th floor window. We only have Brennan's word for that and he lied about just about everything from his location to the identification, on second thought, of Oswald. Not the most reliable witness.
All you really have is a theory based on all sorts of assumptions. The fact that those assumptions are highly questionable and are partly a physical impossibility, except of course in a fairytale, doesn't make any difference for you. It's one thing to believe that Oswald was the lone nut gun man but to do so without actual conclusive evidence is absolutely pathetic. As I said before, you haven't got a shred of evidence that Oswald was actually on the 6th floor of the TSBD at 12:30 on 11/22/63.
There are no questionable "assumptions" here. Even if you repeat that contrarian nonsense a million times. Oswald's rifle was found on the 6th floor, fired bullet casings from his rifle were found by the window, witnesses did see a rifle pointed from that window at the moment of the assassination (i.e. 12:30). Oswald was in the building at the moment the shots were fired and had no credible alibi, Oswald's prints were found on the SN boxes (no other employee left their prints on those particular boxes), a long bag with Oswald's prints was found next to the SN, Oswald lied about his ownership of any rifle (as confirmed by his own wife, BY photos, and Klein's document), Oswald fled the scene within minutes, he obtained a gun, and murdered a police officer less than an hour. Those are facts and evidence.
There are only two choices here: 1) you accept the evidence in which case Oswald is stone cold guilty; or 2) you believe all this evidence derived from a variety of different sources including state and federal law enforcement agencies, third party businesses, and random citizens was fabricated to frame Oswald as part of a conspiracy. What are assumptions and even baseless speculation is making bizarre claims like Oswald needed "superpowers" to sit behind some boxes and not be heard and get off the 6th floor unseen after the assassination. Something that we know someone must have been able to do since we know someone was on the 6th floor pointing a rifle out the window at 12:30 per the witness confirmations. For some reason, you constantly suggest Oswald couldn't do the same things that your fantasy conspirators could do.
I see you're back at your normal level.
And your evidence that this guy (whose name I bet you don’t even know) could see the sidewalk in front of the building from this position would be…?
Yeah, that’s what I thought.
And your evidence that anybody stuck his head out a sixth floor window in such a fashion in the minutes leading up to the assassination would be…?
Yeah, that’s what I thought.
There are no questionable "assumptions" here. Even if you repeat that contrarian nonsense a million times. Oswald's rifle was found on the 6th floor, fired bullet casings from his rifle were found by the window, witnesses did see a rifle pointed from that window at the moment of the assassination (i.e. 12:30). Oswald was in the building at the moment the shots were fired and had no credible alibi, Oswald's prints were found on the SN boxes (no other employee left their prints on those particular boxes), a long bag with Oswald's prints was found next to the SN, Oswald lied about his ownership of any rifle (as confirmed by his own wife, BY photos, and Klein's document), Oswald fled the scene within minutes, he obtained a gun, and murdered a police officer less than an hour. Those are facts and evidence.
There are only two choices here: 1) you accept the evidence in which case Oswald is stone cold guilty; or 2) you believe all this evidence derived from a variety of different sources including state and federal law enforcement agencies, third party businesses, and random citizens was fabricated to frame Oswald as part of a conspiracy. What are assumptions and even baseless speculation is making bizarre claims like Oswald needed "superpowers" to sit behind some boxes and not be heard and get off the 6th floor unseen after the assassination. Something that we know someone must have been able to do since we know someone was on the 6th floor pointing a rifle out the window at 12:30 per the witness confirmations. For some reason, you constantly suggest Oswald couldn't do the same things that your fantasy conspirators could do.
Yes, it’s so boring when clowns speak with authority about stuff they know so little about.
Oswald's rifle was found on the 6th floor, fired bullet casings from his rifle were found by the window, witnesses did see a rifle pointed from that window at the moment of the assassination (i.e. 12:30).
Oswald's rifle was found on the 6th floor, Ok Granted..... WHEN was it hidden beneath the pallet ??
Only 3 things you need to know
about the nightmare on Elm
1) That Oswald got what he deserved
2) That IacLOLetti worships a cold-blooded killer
3) See above
As a bonus, I'll give you actual speculation
When seems obvious. As Oswald boogied for the stairs to get off the floor. Oswald's rifle was on the floor from which a shooter assassinated JFK with a rifle at 12:30. Fired bullet casings from Oswald's rifle were found by the window from which witnesses confirm they saw a rifle at the moment of the assassination. That rifle was found hidden on the 6th floor. Oswald fled the scene down the stairs near the location where the rifle was left. We don't have to consult Sherlock Holmes here to connect the dots.
As a bonus, I'll give you actual speculation and excite Martin to take us down the rabbit hole. After Oswald learned of the motorcade route sometime that week, he scouted the TSBD for a location that afford the best combination of shooting location and seclusion to commit the act. The 6th floor window was ideal due to the boxes surrounding that window, view down Elm, and it was out of sight of the elevator/stairs. He might have had an alternative if it that turned out to not be feasible for some reason on the day of the assassination. Maybe on the 7th floor. Once he picks a shooting location, he decides on a good place to hide the rifle on that floor. He creates or finds such a place on the 6th floor sometime that week. When he brings his bag/rifle to work on 11.22 he heads directly to that location and stashes the rifle. He can retrieve it on the floor from which he intends to commit the act. He walks around with his clipboard on the 6th floor after noon giving him the appearance of having a job-related purpose for being there should he encounter anyone on the floor. At some point after noon, likely before BRW arrives on the floor, he puts his clipboard down and retrieves the bag. The location of the clipboard, therefore, provides some insight as to where he hid the rifle that morning. He carries the bag to the SN, takes out the rifle, and does whatever assembly is required while he waits. After the shooting, he stashes the rifle in the same place he hid it that morning. Not taking him more than a few seconds.
So what’s your point?
"Hidden beneath the pallet"? ::)
Never mind that Day and Studebaker said the rifle as found was as it appeared in Studebaker's high-red Crime Lab photos. That Studebaker himself was filmed taking the photos. That one of the first to spot the rifle agreed with Studebaker's in-situ photo. Nope, you have a cherrypick you can wordspin.
Over at the other Forum, there's a revealing post where JFK Assassination Loons have come out of the closet with their belief that the World Trade towers were brought down by controlled explosions.
Are your eyes brown Mr "Smith"? I would guess that they are, because you're so full of s--t.
That rifle was found hidden on the 6th floor.
You are correct in stating that the rifle was hidden.....It was well hidden, and it was only after the police obtained powerful flashlights and moved some boxes that concealed it that it was found. That rifle most certainly was NOT hastily jammed in between boxes of books with the entire rear half of the rifle exposed.
The point is:.... If Lee had been the assassin who was encountered by Baker and Truly in the second floor lunchroom less than two minutes after the FIRST shot was fired, then he would not have had enough time to HIDE the rifle as you've said.
But It is a FACT (verified by photos) of detective Day picking up the rifle FROM THE FLOOR , that the rifle was well hidden. And since Lee would not have had enough time to hide the rifle AFTER the shots were fired.... IF he hid the rifle, then he would have to have hid it BEFORE the shots were fired.
You go first
Oswald had plenty of time to place the rifle where it was found and make his way to the lunchroom encounter. But, as I tried to explain, whatever effort you think was necessary to construct this "hiding" place for the rifle could have been before the assassination to hide the bag/rifle there that morning. All Oswald had to do afterward is return to that place put the rifle back into his hiding location. An act that might take him 5 seconds.
Oswald had plenty of time to place the rifle where it was found and make his way to the lunchroom encounter. But, as I tried to explain, whatever effort you think was necessary to construct this "hiding" place for the rifle could have been before the assassination to hide the bag/rifle there that morning. All Oswald had to do afterward is return to that place put the rifle back into his hiding location. An act that might take him 5 seconds.
Pssssst.... Mr "Smith" apparently you're ignorant of the fact that there was a new floor being installed on the sixth floor..... If Lee had hid the rifle as you believe then he would have run the risk of the rifle being found by the men who were installing the new floor.
Like “Richard” has any evidence that any rifle was ever hidden in any bag.
There is no point — got it. You just invoke “Patton gang” as if it means something.
Thanks again for another useless display of “creativity”.
Sure, Weitzman's going to plant his face on the oily dirty floor and shine his breadbox-size searchlight into the opening of a pallet.
The pallet openings run east/west, so here's the only openings available to Weitzman:
(https://images2.imgbox.com/03/7f/cR4zFLL3_o.jpg)
Weitzman can't possibly see to where the rifle is depicted in the Crime Lab photos.
(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339279/m1/1/med_res/)
This photo shows the top of the cartons that were on Pallet "C" in the foreground (which photographer Studebaker was on) and the rifle in-situ to the north (top of the picture).
"I was on the floor looking under the flat at the same time
he was looking on the top side and we saw the gun"
Weitzman was in retail, so the term "on the floor" could mean the open area of a store.
"Yes, sir; this is taken the opposite side the flat I was looking under."
"Boone was looking the top side; I was looking under the flat. We
were looking over everything. I was behind this section of books."
Notice Weitzman says "flat" and not "pallet". In others words, he was looking along the lower sides of the stacked cartons. Weitzman testified: "I said, 'There it is' and he [Boone] started hollering, 'We got it.' It was covered with boxes." That doesn't sound like a rifle hidden under the wooden boards of a pallet.
Look at the arrows in Weitzman Exhibits E and F:
(https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh21/pages/WH_Vol21_0374b.jpg)
Mr. BALL - Would you mind making a mark there with a pen?
That is on F. Draw on Exhibit F, draw an arrow. The arrow
in ink on F shows the location?
Mr. WEITZMAN - Down on the floor.
Mr. BALL - Shows the location of the gun on the floor?
Mr. WEITZMAN - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Take E here and make a mark on E as to the
location of the place where the gun was found.
Mr. WEITZMAN - Same area.
Mr. BALL - The same area and the arrow marks the place
where the gun was found?
Mr. WEITZMAN - Yes, sir.
The arrow points away from the pallets and Weitzman again says it was on the floor, not beneath a pallet.
What about Eugene Boone? He testified the rifle was "stuffed down between two rows of boxes with another box or so pulled over the top of it. And I hollered that the rifle was here." Shown one of the Studebaker in-situ photos, Boones testified:
Mr. BALL - This shows the rifle as you saw it, does it?
Mr. BOONE - That is right. Then you could kneel down over
here and see that it had a scope, a telescopic sight on it,
by looking down underneath the boxes.
Boone doesn't say the rifle was hidden in a pallet, visible through one of the end openings. Here's where Boone located the rifle and it is away from the pallets.
(https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce516.jpg)
The pallet is made of wood and is what the flat of goods sits on. ( Link (https://www.shutterstock.com/video/clip-1055684405-1940s-flat-goods-lowered-ground-men-push) )
Weitzman "I went on the road as district supervisor and manager for
Holly's Dress Shops in New York, 115 Fifth Avenue, and I
supervised 26 stores for them for approximately 15 years."
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)Ball "Then what did you do?"
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)Weitzman "I took over as general manager of the Lamont Corp. which
is a discount operation and the headquarters, which was
Galveston, Tex. We had stores in Dallas, Fort Worth, Loui-
siana, Phoenix and Tucson, Ariz. At the end of 1960, I closed
up all the stores, retired from the discount operation and went
to work for Robie Love in Dallas County, precinct 1."
Levitating, is it?
(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339279/m1/1/med_res/)
So everybody (including Weitzman) is wrong about finding the rifle as shown in the Dallas Crime Lab in-situ photos?
Those photos indicate that it would be impossible for Weitzman to have seen the MC rifle from some position east of the 2rows of boxes even if his face was to the ground.
The only way Weitzman could have seen that MC rifle while looking “under a flat” is 2 possibilities:
1. Weitzman was looking North THRU the open approx 4” space of a pallet from the south side of that pallet and saw a rifle IN that pallet space
.2. Weitzman was looking North THRU the pallet from the south side and he saw. the WHOLE rifle between the north side of the pallet and south side wall of the stacked boxes
3. Weitzman was looking THRU the pallet and saw a PORTION of the rifle thru a vertical gap between 2 adjacent bottom level boxes that formed the south side wall , while Boone was looking on the north side of that wall and shining his light on it.
It’s not certain (imo) what the original configuration of the bottom level of boxes was and if they were ALL end to end with no vertical gaps as it appears that SOME of them were in the photo or if the box that was removed had been snuggly fitting which would therefore rule OUT probability of a gap that Weitzman could have looked thru.
The pallet is made of wood and is what the flat of goods sits on. ( Link (https://www.shutterstock.com/video/clip-1055684405-1940s-flat-goods-lowered-ground-men-push) )
Weitzman "I went on the road as district supervisor and manager for
Holly's Dress Shops in New York, 115 Fifth Avenue, and I
supervised 26 stores for them for approximately 15 years."
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)Ball "Then what did you do?"
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)Weitzman "I took over as general manager of the Lamont Corp. which
is a discount operation and the headquarters, which was
Galveston, Tex. We had stores in Dallas, Fort Worth, Loui-
siana, Phoenix and Tucson, Ariz. At the end of 1960, I closed
up all the stores, retired from the discount operation and went
to work for Robie Love in Dallas County, precinct 1."
Levitating, is it?
(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339279/m1/1/med_res/)
So everybody (including Weitzman) is wrong about finding the rifle as shown in the Dallas Crime Lab in-situ photos?
Or Day had gently slid away a box helping to keep the rifle upright while supporting the rifle to allow it to tilt onto the floor. When Day felt competent enough that the rifle could be safely lifted, he began his lift just as Alyea began his film sequence. The rifle in-situ photos are the still photos testified as true by Studebaker of the Dallas Crime Lab. Boone and Weitzman also agreed with the Studebaker photos.
Neither the Alyea film or the Crime Lab photos show the rifle hidden inside a pallet, or even leaning against a pallet.
Sure, Weitzman's going to plant his face on the oily dirty floor and shine his breadbox-size searchlight into the opening of a pallet.
The pallet openings run east/west, so here's the only openings available to Weitzman:
(https://images2.imgbox.com/03/7f/cR4zFLL3_o.jpg)
Weitzman can't possibly see to where the rifle is depicted in the Crime Lab photos.
(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339279/m1/1/med_res/)
This photo shows the top of the cartons that were on Pallet "C" in the foreground (which photographer Studebaker was on) and the rifle in-situ to the north (top of the picture).
"I was on the floor looking under the flat at the same time
he was looking on the top side and we saw the gun"
Weitzman was in retail, so the term "on the floor" could mean the open area of a store.
"Yes, sir; this is taken the opposite side the flat I was looking under."
"Boone was looking the top side; I was looking under the flat. We
were looking over everything. I was behind this section of books."
Notice Weitzman says "flat" and not "pallet". In others words, he was looking along the lower sides of the stacked cartons. Weitzman testified: "I said, 'There it is' and he [Boone] started hollering, 'We got it.' It was covered with boxes." That doesn't sound like a rifle hidden under the wooden boards of a pallet.
Look at the arrows in Weitzman Exhibits E and F:
(https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh21/pages/WH_Vol21_0374b.jpg)
Mr. BALL - Would you mind making a mark there with a pen?
That is on F. Draw on Exhibit F, draw an arrow. The arrow
in ink on F shows the location?
Mr. WEITZMAN - Down on the floor.
Mr. BALL - Shows the location of the gun on the floor?
Mr. WEITZMAN - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Take E here and make a mark on E as to the
location of the place where the gun was found.
Mr. WEITZMAN - Same area.
Mr. BALL - The same area and the arrow marks the place
where the gun was found?
Mr. WEITZMAN - Yes, sir.
The arrow points away from the pallets and Weitzman again says it was on the floor, not beneath a pallet.
What about Eugene Boone? He testified the rifle was "stuffed down between two rows of boxes with another box or so pulled over the top of it. And I hollered that the rifle was here." Shown one of the Studebaker in-situ photos, Boones testified:
Mr. BALL - This shows the rifle as you saw it, does it?
Mr. BOONE - That is right. Then you could kneel down over
here and see that it had a scope, a telescopic sight on it,
by looking down underneath the boxes.
Boone doesn't say the rifle was hidden in a pallet, visible through one of the end openings. Here's where Boone located the rifle and it is away from the pallets.
(https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce516.jpg)
So is it reasonably to conclude that it was NOT probable that Weitzman could have seen even a portion of the rifle while looking under the flat (pallet)?
If so then Weitzman is exaggerating similar to Roger Craig or Weitzman saw the rifle originally in a different place than where Boone claims to have first seen it.
Seems to be a choice as to whom
Is the more credible witness, Weitzman or Boone?
Since Weitzman seems to have had some problem with depression later in his life, should this be considered as a sign he saw the rifle moved and remained silent about it? Or is it because he had exaggerated about actually seeing the rifle at the DAME time as Boone did?
This is just one example why I’m still having trouble deciding what is true and what is not after 20 years of following the discussions about the JFK assassination.
Walt, if you are correct, then Boone has to be considered as a suspect witness.
Is there verification of Boones 1:22 time stamp for the finding a rifle or is it entirely based on on Boone himself declaring HIS watch read 1:22?
Boone was another one of the low ranking law officers ( like Weitzman and Craig) who was cajoled and muscled into going along with the Dallas Law enforcement hierarchy. Boone, Weitzman, and Craig were victims of the conspirators....
When your paycheck ( and possibly your life ) hangs in the balance you are not inclined to argue with those in authority.
As the old adage says...When they've got you by the gonads....your heart and mind will rapidly follow......
P.S...... Howard Brennan was another victim of the corrupt law enforcement officials.... Brennan entered the case as an innocent spectator who simply wanted to be a good citizen and help the police catch the guilty culprits.... Little did he know that he would have been far better off to simply walk away.
The plot grows bigger and bigger. If this was a plot to frame Oswald, why hide the rifle at all? Why not just drop it by the window in plain sight? Why stage a fake discovery of the rifle hidden under some boxes etc? Like the 'bus rider" to nowhere that seems completely pointless and even counterproductive as part of a conspiracy plan. Presumably they want the rifle found and the sooner the better but they engage in this charade. Amazing.
It's very clear that this case is waaaaaaay beyond your limited ability to comprehend and understand.
There was two plays being played out....Lee was playing the role that he'd played at Walker's. He was involved in making it appear that he had shot at JFK but missed and was fleeing to Cuba seeking asylum.
The rifle was hidden to allow him time to get out of the country. He thought that the cops wouldn't get too excited about someone shooting at JFK ( He knew that JFK was not liked by many at the DPD) and probably wouldn't find the rifle for days. THAT'S the reason the rifle was hidden....
Lee didn't know that he'd been double crossed and set up as the patsy by the killers. There were no shots fired from the TSBD that day.... I know that you think the shells and the rifle constitute proof that Lee Oswald shot and killed JFK from that sixth floor window, but if you extract your head you'd realize that the spent shells and rifle were nothing but stage props.
P.S. If you could extract your head and see that Lee Oswald was in the 1st floor lunchroom at 12:27 when Jarman and Norman walked by the room then MAYBE you'd start to see the light.
HA HA HA. An instant classic. Where even to start? Lee was playing the role of the assassin by hanging out in the lunchroom according to you? Where he could easily have been seen instead of just staying on the 6th floor. Wow. And if someone was double crossing him to frame him for the crime and wanted him to get caught, then again, WHY HIDE THE RIFLE? You have provided an explanation (albeit completely idiotic) as to why they would hide the rifle to buy him some time, but they actually want him to get caught in your double cross fantasy. No shots fired? What were they hearing on the 5th floor? Why stage a shooting scene on the 6th floor but assassinate JFK from some other location with a different rifle necessitating access to the body and evidence?
As I told you...This case is waaaaaay beyond your abilities.....
Well there WAS SOME rifle being stuck out the 6th fioor SE corner window at the very least .
Because Bob Jackson and Malcolm Couch saw SOME rifle (or object resembling a rifle) stuck out the 6th floor SE window and observed it being “”slowly withdrawn”
And there is reason to believe that 3 shots were fired by that rifle per Harold Norman and Amos Euins WC testimony.
Therefore (imo ) the more objective conclusion is that although SOME rifle probably Was from the SE 6th story corner window , it was NOT Likely to be the MC rifle that the Tom Aleya film recorded being lifted by Lt. Day.
Reasons:
1. Harold Norman heard the 3 shots fired in approx 4 sec span per his own video recorded demonstration of the spacing.
2. A 2/3rd majority of ear witness heard the no.2 and no 3 shots too close together to have been plausibly fired by an MC rifle.
3. The absence of any statements made about gunpowder residue found in the barrel or the breech of the MC rifle.
4. No statements regarding gunpowder odor which should have been noticeable.
5. The misaligned scope due to the mount itself requiring shims under the mount = impossible for even a perfectly functional scope to have ever been zeroed using the elevation adjustment nibs.
6. The curiosity of the bolt handle being apparently up and the bolt not locked down.
7. Weitzman seeing a rifle while looking eastward under a flat ie ( thru a pallet) which is not probable if the rifle were between the 2 rows of boxes. If Weitzman is credible , then the rifle must have been moved from its original “well hidden” location to the boxes where it was photographed
This is not worthy of debate or serious consideration.
Weitzman looking (get this, with one of those large flashlights they were using) though the opening at the end of a pallet and seeing the Carcano jammed into the same opening that runs beneath the pallet? And same rifle was hidden to allow Oswald time to get out of the country?
Well there WAS SOME rifle being stuck out the 6th fioor SE corner window at the very least .
Because Bob Jackson and Malcolm Couch saw SOME rifle (or object resembling a rifle) stuck out the 6th floor SE window and observed it being “”slowly withdrawn”
And there is reason to believe that 3 shots were fired by that rifle per Harold Norman and Amos Euins WC testimony.
Therefore (imo ) the more objective conclusion is that although SOME rifle probably Was from the SE 6th story corner window , it was NOT Likely to be the MC rifle that the Tom Aleya film recorded being lifted by Lt. Day.
Reasons:
1. Harold Norman heard the 3 shots fired in approx 4 sec span per his own video recorded demonstration of the spacing.
2. A 2/3rd majority of ear witness heard the no.2 and no 3 shots too close together to have been plausibly fired by an MC rifle.
3. The absence of any statements made about gunpowder residue found in the barrel or the breech of the MC rifle.
4. No statements regarding gunpowder odor which should have been noticeable.
5. The misaligned scope due to the mount itself requiring shims under the mount = impossible for even a perfectly functional scope to have ever been zeroed using the elevation adjustment nibs.
6. The curiosity of the bolt handle being apparently up and the bolt not locked down.
7. Weitzman seeing a rifle while looking eastward under a flat ie ( thru a pallet) which is not probable if the rifle were between the 2 rows of boxes. If Weitzman is credible , then the rifle must have been moved from its original “well hidden” location to the boxes where it was photographed
Well there WAS SOME rifle being stuck out the 6th fioor SE corner window at the very least .
Because Bob Jackson and Malcolm Couch saw SOME rifle (or object resembling a rifle) stuck out the 6th floor SE window and observed it being “”slowly withdrawn”
And there is reason to believe that 3 shots were fired by that rifle per Harold Norman and Amos Euins WC testimony.
Therefore (imo ) the more objective conclusion is that although SOME rifle probably Was from the SE 6th story corner window , it was NOT Likely to be the MC rifle that the Tom Aleya film recorded being lifted by Lt. Day.
Reasons:
1. Harold Norman heard the 3 shots fired in approx 4 sec span per his own video recorded demonstration of the spacing.
2. A 2/3rd majority of ear witness heard the no.2 and no 3 shots too close together to have been plausibly fired by an MC rifle.
3. The absence of any statements made about gunpowder residue found in the barrel or the breech of the MC rifle.
4. No statements regarding gunpowder odor which should have been noticeable.
5. The misaligned scope due to the mount itself requiring shims under the mount = impossible for even a perfectly functional scope to have ever been zeroed using the elevation adjustment nibs.
6. The curiosity of the bolt handle being apparently up and the bolt not locked down.
7. Weitzman seeing a rifle while looking eastward under a flat ie ( thru a pallet) which is not probable if the rifle were between the 2 rows of boxes. If Weitzman is credible , then the rifle must have been moved from its original “well hidden” location to the boxes where it was photographed
This is not worthy of debate or serious consideration.
Weitzman looking (get this, with one of those large flashlights they were using) though the opening at the end of a pallet and seeing the Carcano jammed into the same opening that runs beneath the pallet? And same rifle was hidden to allow Oswald time to get out of the country?
Weitzman exhibit E provides a better perspective for verifying that Weitzman couldn't have seen the rifle as it is depicted in the official DPD in situ photo.
(https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh21/pages/WH_Vol21_0374b.jpg)
In the official DPD photo the rifle is shown standing on it's magazine, and it is one row of boxes north of the pallet. Those boxes are sitting on the floor and they would have blocked Weitzman's line of sight to the rifle if it had been sitting as depicted in the official DPD photo.
Is there a full moon or something? How do you get a "rock solid alibi" by putting yourself in the location from which the crime was committed (i.e. TSBD)? And a suspect doesn't get an alibi from claiming to see others. They get an alibi when some neutral witness can put the suspect at a different location at the time the crime was committed. Oswald claiming to see someone in the lunchroom who didn't see him doesn't do that. Obviously, Oswald knows his coworkers, who they hung out with, and what they look like from weeks of working in the building. It wouldn't take Nostradamus to come up with that tale. He has no alibi.
No person can reasonably believe that LHO, a person with a well-documented history of interest in politics, who checked out and read JFK's book from the library, wouldn't so much as go outside to watch the motorcade go by his workplace if he was innocent. If he was part of some conspiracy that involved framing him for the crime, the conspirators wouldn't risk allowing him to be in the lunchroom where he might be seen by someone at the time of the crime.
Apparently some folks believe that the word "alibi" means a contrive story in an attempt to prove that they were not the culprit in a crime.
alibi----a form of defense by which an accused person attempts to show that he was elsewhere when the crime was committed.
The "investigators" said that JFK had been shot from a sixth floor window of the TSBD at 12:30
Lee Oswald said that he was in the 1st floor lunch room at the time that he saw Junior, and Shorty walk by that lunchroom at 12:27. Therefore he couldn't have been on the sixth floor at 12:30.
At the time Lee presented that alibi in answering Captain Fritz question ..... There's no evidence that Lee even knew that the investigators were saying that the shots had been fired from the sixth floor.
Don't you think Oswald might know the time and place of the assassination if he was the assassin? LOL. Just making up a flimsy story that he was somewhere else is not an alibi. No one saw him there. There was no "corroboration" (a word CTers love). Oswald has no alibi. He has a baseless claim that can be judged against the evidence left on the 6th floor including his rifle, fired bullet casings from his rifle, and his prints on the SN boxes. His explanation for his rifle being found on the 6th floor? None. Instead he lies and denies owning any rifle.
Conclusion: GUILTY.
Where specifically is it on the first floor that Eddie Piper said he went during the shots. He testified that he went to where they make coffee to see what time it was. Where exactly is this area located on the first floor?
Don't you think Oswald might know the time and place of the assassination if he was the assassin? LOL. Just making up a flimsy story that he was somewhere else is not an alibi. No one saw him there. There was no "corroboration" (a word CTers love). Oswald has no alibi. He has a baseless claim that can be judged against the evidence left on the 6th floor including his rifle, fired bullet casings from his rifle, and his prints on the SN boxes. His explanation for his rifle being found on the 6th floor? None. Instead he lies and denies owning any rifle.
Conclusion: GUILTY.
Okay, I found out where this area is located by reading the WC testimony of Troy Eugene West. It is about the middle of the west wall of the first floor. It is where the wrapping machine that West used to wrap the packages is located.
So, I have another question for anyone who subscribes to the idea that LHO was in the domino room when the shots were fired.
In order to get to the second floor break room where Truly and Baker encountered him, LHO would have had to leave the domino room, and walk across the first floor to the stairs. This would have had to occur immediately after the shots were fired in order for the timing to work out. However, both Eddie Piper and Troy Eugene West were on the first floor, but neither one saw LHO do this trek across the first floor at that time. West was at his work station, and Piper was on his way toward West’s work station. Is there some legitimate reason why these two men wouldn’t have seen LHO walking across the first floor at this time? Just asking…
Okay, I found out where this area is located by reading the WC testimony of Troy Eugene West. It is about the middle of the west wall of the first floor. It is where the wrapping machine that West used to wrap the packages is located.
So, I have another question for anyone who subscribes to the idea that LHO was in the domino room when the shots were fired.
In order to get to the second floor break room where Truly and Baker encountered him, LHO would have had to leave the domino room, and walk across the first floor to the stairs. This would have had to occur immediately after the shots were fired in order for the timing to work out. However, both Eddie Piper and Troy Eugene West were on the first floor, but neither one saw LHO do this trek across the first floor at that time. West was at his work station, and Piper was on his way toward West’s work station. Is there some legitimate reason why these two men wouldn’t have seen LHO walking across the first floor at this time? Just asking…
Yet Garner appears to immediately lost interest in the still-unfolding aftermath outside and was eye-locked on the backstairs. Piper and West, who didn't see as much of the assassination as Garner, aren't supposed to see towards the backstairs.
Yet Garner appears to immediately lost interest in the still-unfolding aftermath outside and was eye-locked on the backstairs. Piper and West, who didn't see as much of the assassination as Garner, aren't supposed to see towards the backstairs.
Simply because neither Piper nor West recalled seeing Lee Oswald walk across the 1st floor from the Domino room to the stairs doesn't preclude the fact that Lee did walk from the Domino room to the stairs.... It's entirely possible that Lee could have walked across the room and the sounds of the gunshots distracted Piper and West and the the routine event of a person walking across the room did not enter their memory banks.
West didn’t hear the gunshots, so your theory doesn’t apply to him.
What I am thinking is that the first floor is an open area for the most part. I don’t remember seeing any photos that show for sure that there is a clear view from West’s workstation area to the path that one would take from the domino room to the stairs. Unless there was some physical barrier to block that view, that I am not aware of, I think that they would have had a clear view. I don’t have a problem saying that there is a possibility that both of them might not have noticed. But if you believe that that is possible, then you really should admit that Dorothy Garner could have not noticed too. Also, BRW could have not noticed someone hidden and being as quiet as a mouse in the sniper’s nest…
I don’t have a problem saying that there is a possibility that both of them might not have noticed. But if you believe that that is possible, then you really should admit that Dorothy Garner could have not noticed too.
Apples and oranges.
Garner was standing directly next to the stairs. West and Piper were some distance away and unaware something was going on until police started to come into the building.
It's utterly dishonest to compare the two situations as if they were equal. West and Piper also did not notice Jarman and Norman as well as Adams and Styles and we know for a fact all four were in fact in the same area where Oswald would have walked.
Excellent rebuttal, Martin. Thanks for saving me from having to respond....
Well, you still might, because Charles has said he won't be reading my posts anymore.
That will not stop me from posting and replying to his obvious attempt to take the sting out of Dorothy Garner not seeing Oswald.
Okay, I found out where this area is located by reading the WC testimony of Troy Eugene West. It is about the middle of the west wall of the first floor. It is where the wrapping machine that West used to wrap the packages is located.
So, I have another question for anyone who subscribes to the idea that LHO was in the domino room when the shots were fired.
In order to get to the second floor break room where Truly and Baker encountered him, LHO would have had to leave the domino room, and walk across the first floor to the stairs. This would have had to occur immediately after the shots were fired in order for the timing to work out. However, both Eddie Piper and Troy Eugene West were on the first floor, but neither one saw LHO do this trek across the first floor at that time. West was at his work station, and Piper was on his way toward West’s work station. Is there some legitimate reason why these two men wouldn’t have seen LHO walking across the first floor at this time? Just asking…
In order to get to the second floor break room where Truly and Baker encountered him, LHO would have had to leave the domino room, and walk across the first floor to the stairs. This would have had to occur immediately after the shots were fired in order for the timing to work out.
What do you mean by "In order for the timing to work out"?
In order to get to the second floor break room where Truly and Baker encountered him, LHO would have had to leave the domino room, and walk across the first floor to the stairs. This would have had to occur immediately after the shots were fired in order for the timing to work out.
What do you mean by "In order for the timing to work out"?
Baker and Truly were in the building and crossing the first floor towards the elevators/stairs within seconds of the shots. If LHO were actually in the domino room when the shots were fired then he would have had to leave the domino room immediately after the shots in order to be in the second floor lunchroom when Baker and Truly arrived on the second floor.
Martin's endless contrarian game is to frame a discussion on reconstructing some unknowable event and interpreting any possible outcome in a way most favorable to Oswald. For example, the movements of individuals in the building including Oswald down to a precise second. No one, not even the actual participants, had that granular level of detail in their recollection of events. This scenario, however, allows Martin to go on and on and on as though he has some point to make.
The fact remains that the evidence places Oswald on the 6th floor at the moment of the assassination and then in the 2nd floor lunchroom when Baker arrives. If Oswald was in both places, then it is implicit that we know he moved from point A to B without having to prove the unknowable second by second movements of everyone involved. The best evidence that it could be done is that it was done. Just because we can't know all the details doesn't mean we can't reach any conclusions. All the pedantic, selective nitpicking of witness testimony to construct a narrative that he desires does not negate the evidence. This is where he asks me to prove that Oswald was on the 6th floor at 12:30 as though that evidence is not widely known for nearly six decades. He rejects it but is too cowardly to admit that he is a CTer who believes Oswald was framed. Rather, like Inspector Clouseau, he suspects everyone and he suspects no one. Round and round it goes.
By "evidence", Martin, Cakebread, etc. means events (but just those that implicate Oswald as lone-assassin) must have been captured on Hollywood-quality 35mm film with Dolby Sound. Or they would need to witness it personally through time-travel. Normal vetted longstanding traditional means of evaluating evidence is not good enough in this case. Oswald has gotten a nearly-60 year intense defense which has led nowhere; if anything, it has deservingly earned the CTs ridicule such that some now won't own the title.
My point is that in order for this so called “rock solid alibi” to be feasible, LHO would have had to walk across the first floor in plain view of the two others who said that they were on the first floor at that point in time. Neither one of them saw him.
LHO had the ability to slither around undetected. He acquired this ability when he was very young while staying at his aunt’s house (because his mother didn’t have the time or inclination to take care of him). So your image is appropriate there Bill. Thumb1:
The second part of my point is that that ability to slither would also be applicable to getting from the sixth floor to the second floor.
Personally, I choose to not believe LHO’s obvious lie regarding where he was. And I really couldn’t care less whether others choose differently. I made the point. You can decide for yourself what you want to believe.
My point is that in order for this so called “rock solid alibi” to be feasible, LHO would have had to walk across the first floor in plain view of the two others who said that they were on the first floor at that point in time. Neither one of them saw him.
LHO had the ability to slither around undetected. He acquired this ability when he was very young while staying at his aunt’s house (because his mother didn’t have the time or inclination to take care of him). So your image is appropriate there Bill. Thumb1:
The second part of my point is that that ability to slither would also be applicable to getting from the sixth floor to the second floor.
Personally, I choose to not believe LHO’s obvious lie regarding where he was. And I really couldn’t care less whether others choose differently. I made the point. You can decide for yourself what you want to believe.
Perhaps they simply were not paying attention to what was going on near the elevators.
Also, BRW could have not noticed someone hidden and being as quiet as a mouse in the sniper’s nest…
I choose to not believe LHO’s obvious lie regarding where he was.
Please post that "obvious lie", and the evidence that supports the lie....
I choose to not believe LHO’s obvious lie regarding where he was.
Please post that "obvious lie", and the evidence that supports the lie....
The obvious lie is that he reportedly said he was in the domino room at the time the President passed the TSBD.
You then asked for “evidence that supports the lie”. Other that what LHO reportedly said, I don’t know of any evidence that supports his lie. Why don’t you provide some. You are the one who claims the lie is a rock solid alibi.
The "plain view" comment is definitely a wiggle it in my way argument [just like the invisible train in the Patrolman White thread]QuoteMy point is that in order for this so called “rock solid alibi” to be feasible, LHO would have had to walk across the first floor in plain view of the two others who said that they were on the first floor at that point in time. Neither one of them saw him ------Charles Collins
... there was no plain view. All anyone needs to do is look at the evidence photos of the 1st floor to know that.
OMG!....How many times do you need to be told that Lee's claim that he was eating lunch ALONE in the Domino room when he saw "Junior" Jarman and Shorty Norman walk by..... Jarman and Norman confirmed that they had in fact walked by the lunchroom while on their way to the fifth floor. They said they left the front of the TSBD at 12:25 and arrived on the 5th floor at 12:28. Therfore they would have walked by the lunchroom at about 12:27.
There.... I've provided the evidence that Lee was in the lunchroom .... Now you need to provide the evidence that he was on the sixth floor at 12:30...... And saying that Lee was a liar is just your opinion...... So provide something that proves that he lied...
So,
1.) LHO said that he was in the domino room.
2.) LHO said that he saw some others walk in.
That’s it? ???
I asked for evidence other than what LHO reportedly said. Apparently you have none? ???
BRW said he ate his lunch in the third aisle. And that is where his lunch remains were found and photographed.
I know that’s what he said. But it doesn’t jibe with the other evidence.
There are no photographs of the CE142 wrapper on the floor either, but that doesn’t seem to bother you…
It’s more evidence than you have for Oswald being at that window.
I know that’s what he said. But it doesn’t jibe with the other evidence.
John , I don't give a damn what Bonnie Boy Williams said. It doesn't alter the fact that Lee Oswald saw Jarman and Norman walk by the domino room at about 12:27.... Only a damned fool, and an idiot would believe that he could have been on the sixth floor firing that rusty old carcano out of the window at 12:30.
BRW, Junior Jarman, and Harold Norman were three young Negroes who had been raised in the segregated south and they said whatever they thought would please the white cop with the badge. They understood that they must cooperate with white authority or suffer the consequences.....
And who said they saw the lunch remains in the sniper’s nest?
Mooney, McCurley, Faulkner, Craig, Hill, Brewer, Haywood, and Weatherford all said that they saw chicken bones and/or a lunch sack lying on top of boxes at the SE window, or next to the SE window.
Everyone was lying (except LHO). ::)
... there was no plain view. All anyone needs to do is look at the evidence photos of the 1st floor to know that.
The "plain view" comment is definitely a wiggle it in my way argument [just like the invisible train in the Patrolman White thread]
Of course cops never lie huh?
I would like to see a link to these evidence photographs that were taken on the first floor.
Another issue is a man seen at the 'sniper window' minutes after the shooting.
Report from Ms Lillian Mooneyham CE 2098----
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/pdf/WH24_CE_2098.pdf
Mooney, McCurley, Faulkner, Craig, Hill, Brewer, Haywood, and Weatherford all said that they saw chicken bones and/or a lunch sack lying on top of boxes at the SE window, or next to the SE window.
I asked how many of them had actual crime scene investigation experience. Let’s start with your first one:
Mooney. He was in the writ and execution division of the Sheriff’s Dept. He shuffled legal paperwork for a living. No apparent experience in crime scene investigation.
Craig. He testified that he ran away from home when he was 12 and had no subsequent schooling. He worked on some ranches, went into the army and worked in the motor pool, then was a dishwasher, a cook, a construction worker, and a packager, then went to work for the Sheriff’s Dept. in October of 1959. No apparent aptitude for, or experience in, crime scene investigation.
Haygood [not Haywood]. A motor jockey with no apparent experience in crime scene investigation.
Faulkner. I only found a Sheriff’s report dated 11/22/63 with no mention of any lunch remains. So, I question why you included him in your list.
Hill. Assigned to checking the backgrounds of applicants for the DPD. No apparent experience in crime scene investigation.
McCurley. Deputy Sheriff with no apparent experience in crime scene investigation.
Brewer. He was a motor jockey with no apparent experience in crime scene investigation.
Weatherford. Deputy Sheriff with no apparent experience in crime scene investigation.
None of these give any specific locations just general information. The only one who gave anything that could possibly be considered specific was Mooney. And Mooney qualified his information with qualifications which included “if I remember correctly”, and it could have been on this box or maybe on this other box. It is obvious to me that he really didn’t remember for sure where he saw it.
If you really believe that any of their testimony is evidence that they saw lunch remains at the southeast window or next to the southeast window, then apparently you have a completely different standard for what you consider to be evidence that you think tends to show a contrary scenario to the official one. Why he hell is that? ???
Time and time again you claim that there is no evidence that tends to incriminate your idol. But when it comes to evidence that you think tends to exonotate your idol, the sketchiest testimony will do just fine. ::)
None of the officers in your list were there to document the evidence. They were searching for the assassin and the weapon, etc. The actual crime scene investigators who were assigned to this scene provide the real answers. But, as usual, you will claim that there is no evidence (no matter how well it is documented) when it comes to incriminating evidence.
Craig. He testified that he ran away from home when he was 12 and had no subsequent schooling. He worked on some ranches, went into the army and worked in the motor pool, then was a dishwasher, a cook, a construction worker, and a packager, then went to work for the Sheriff’s Dept. in October of 1959. No apparent aptitude for, or experience in, crime scene investigation.
So, are you trying to make the claim that a person who didn't have the greatest childhood is incapable of being trained to do a successful job later in life?
The simple fact is nobody has experience in crime scene investigations until they gain that experience.
Are you saying that Craig was incapable of gaining that experience when he entered law enforcement?
The context in which I used the word aptitude included his education and work experience. None of that (with the possible exception of his claim of passing a high school equivalency test) included anything that I consider a prerequisite to be able to comprehend the math and science involved in the crime scene investigation processes. I don’t know what his capacity for learning what was required to be able to do that work properly might have been. He might have been able to acquire enough knowledge. But I just don’t see any evidence that he had (at that point in time) an aptitude or ambition for that particular job.
He was named Man of the Year by the sheriff's office in 1960 for his work in aid in helping to capture an international jewel chief. He had a successful career in the DPD and was promoted four times.https://spartacus-educational.com/JFKcraigR.htm
I asked how many of them had actual crime scene investigation experience.
Time and time again you claim that there is no evidence that tends to incriminate your idol.
But when it comes to evidence that you think tends to exonotate your idol, the sketchiest testimony will do just fine. ::)
None of the officers in your list were there to document the evidence. They were searching for the assassin and the weapon, etc. The actual crime scene investigators who were assigned to this scene provide the real answers.
I don’t see what difference it makes, given that the guys who allegedly *did* have crime scene experience completely screwed up the crime scenes and the evidence handling.
You can attempt to smear all of the officers who saw something you don’t like as an excuse to disregard what they said, but it doesn’t change what they saw. You don’t need any specialized knowledge to know what a chicken bone is.
Yes, Haygood. Autocorrect got me there.
Faulkner’s account of the chicken bones is in “No More Silence”.
There’s that “idol” crap again. And, no, I never claimed anything like this.
Bull, because the lunch remains don’t tend to exonerate anybody. At best they illustrate that BRW was less than honest about where he was as what he saw (or could see).
“Real answers”. LOL.
Well then, perhaps the next time you go to the doctor to get a diagnosis you should ask for some second opinions from the receptionists (be sure to request the ones with no medical experience).
And ignore the doctor’s diagnosis just because you somehow “know” that he completely screwed it up.
No smear job was intended. None of the ones you have listed gave a specific location.
You were trying to use your idea of the location of the lunch remains to suggest that BRW was eating his lunch at the sniper’s nest. And therefore it was “unlikely” that he wouldn’t have seen LHO hiding there.
That’s a silly analogy, given that there’s no “diagnosis” involved here. The doctor, the nurse, the receptionist, and the building janitor would all be just as capable of seeing that a patient left her purse in the exam room.
I don’t “somehow ‘know’” they screwed up the crime scenes and the evidence handling. They did screw them up. Crime scenes weren’t secured. Things were moved around or picked up before photos were taken. Prints weren’t photographed and covered. Probable cause wasn’t followed for searches and arrests. Chains of custody were not maintained. Evidence was not properly secured and stored. Lineups were egregiously unfair and biased. Relevant reports were either never written or written as an afterthought long after the events. Etc, etc, etc.
That’s not correct. They all talked about the lunch bag and the chicken bones in the context of what they saw where the shells were found or on top of boxes by the SE window.
That’s true, but it still doesn’t exonerate anybody. There’s just no evidence whatsoever that LHO was “hiding there”.
I don’t see what difference it makes, given that the guys who allegedly *did* have crime scene experience completely screwed up the crime scenes and the evidence handling.
Right? And nice double standard. What crime scene training did Edwards and Fischer have?
WTF are you trying to say? ???
This kind of BS and he gets upset when he doesn't get any respect..... Amazing :D
If that's all you took away from the "debate", you weren't comprehending too well.
For you "debate" is an euphemism for I won't change my mind one bit. Quite the opposite of "arguing and presenting utter nonsense," Charles tested fairly your hypothesis with experimentation.
(https://images2.imgbox.com/61/48/QlQLZvO7_o.jpg)
(The fingers would not be pressed against the palm, as shown here, but rather wrapped around the barrel being gripped.)
Question: Do you believe it's possible to wrap your palm ( heel portion ) completely around a 5/8 " tube? My answer:
I think it was also established that the palm-print lift was done using 2"-wide tape and that, prior to making the lift, the bayonet lug was moved forward out of the way along the tapered end of the barrel.
For you "debate" is an euphemism for I won't change my mind one bit. Quite the opposite of "arguing and presenting utter nonsense," Charles tested fairly your hypothesis with experimentation.
(https://images2.imgbox.com/61/48/QlQLZvO7_o.jpg)
(The fingers would not be pressed against the palm, as shown here, but rather wrapped around the barrel being gripped.)
Question: Do you believe it's possible to wrap your palm ( heel portion ) completely around a 5/8 " tube? My answer:
I think it was also established that the palm-print lift was done using 2"-wide tape and that, prior to making the lift, the bayonet lug was moved forward out of the way along the tapered end of the barrel.
At 2:34 time, the bayonet lug is moved forward by tapping with the end of a screwdriver.
At 2:34 time, the bayonet lug is moved forward by tapping with the end of a screwdriver.
No prob', buddy.
"It appears to me that the contact between the moveable bayonet lug and
the underside of the barrel could create some rough spots on the underside
of the barrel (which would be in the form of two parallel lines). When Day
needed to apply the tape to the underside of the barrel, all he needed to do
was slide the bayonet lug away from the print (towards the muzzle end of
the barrel. The rough spots (in the form of two parallel lines) could retain
some of the fingerprint powder. And those rough spots would show up on
the lift as two parallel lines."
See post by Charles Collins here: https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,3030.msg114974.html#msg114974 on Page 29 of the Topic: "Ct's firstly ask yourself, where does my theory go?" Link (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,3030.280.html).
Thank you for providing the photos that lead you to believe the two parallel lines were made by the bayonet lug.
I'd suggest that you think about that idea.... Because is not plausible. We need the palm print posted again so we can discuss the plausibility of your idea.
As I recall detective Day said that he saw some of the print on the metal barrel sticking out from beneath the wooden foregrip, so he decided to dismantle the rifle to expose the entire print.
Do I have that right?
Charles Collins posted this last year.....
I don't know why I missed this post by Charles Collins
I ran across this photo which shows more clearly that the two edges which contact the underside of the barrel are rough. It appears to me that there are teeth intentionally made into the edges. These teeth are slanted such that they would grip the underside of the barrel when the lug is pushed back towards the bolt, and would release very easily when it is pushed toward the muzzle end of the barrel. Also, take another look at the two lines on the lift done by Day. They look to me like impressions left on the underside of the barrel by similar teeth could have formed them. (Where's a forensic dentist when we need one? ;))
(https://i.vgy.me/QGok9N.jpg)
The bayonet lug had one bolt hole and the heavy metal barrel band had two.
(https://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano/images/rifle.jpg) (https://www.whokilledjfk.net/disassembling_the_mc_rifle_files/image059.jpg)
Just to show you I ain't pulling your leg, here's the Oswald rifle:
(https://c8.alamy.com/comp/D18JTN/warren-commission-exhibit-gun-used-by-lee-harvey-oswald-to-assassinate-D18JTN.jpg) (https://kubrick.htvapps.com/htv-prod-media.s3.amazonaws.com/ibmig/cms/image/wmur/23006390-23006390.jpg)
Finally, in the graphic below, the top inset shows how everything fitted together. Two bolts through the heavy metal barrel band and just one through the bayonet lug. It didn't need two bolts because the lug was additionally secured through friction to the barrel itself.
(https://images2.imgbox.com/be/88/DaeHb42r_o.jpg)
The folded bayonet.
(https://www.libertytreecollectors.com/productcart/pc/catalog/CarcanoM38FrontBandScrews(1).JPG) (https://pre98.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/38c19.jpg)
Ok, my mistake.... I've never removed the bayonet lug and I was under the impression that it require a special tool.Nah...you should be able to do it by just using a dime :-\
There's no evidence that somebody else shot Kennedy.It's easier to sucker people than to convince them that they've been suckered(http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/Smileys/default2/deadhorsebeat_2.gif)
(https://images2.imgbox.com/e2/59/3hWUREDy_o.jpg)
Don't suppose you would put down some of the weird proportions in the lug photo to old-school perspective and wide lens distortion?
I'm lost. Are you saying your bayonet lug looks like this:
(https://images2.imgbox.com/31/1b/Gi9MOSmL_o.jpg)
Sorry, but one has to guess at what you mean because you won't post any pictures.
(https://images2.imgbox.com/52/12/JjzrSFa6_o.jpg)
If the lifting tape is 2" wide, the linear lines are 5/16" apart, the same width as the bayonet lug. (From this page (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,3030.300.html)e )
I'm lost. Are you saying your bayonet lug looks like this:
(https://images2.imgbox.com/31/1b/Gi9MOSmL_o.jpg)
Sorry, but one has to guess at what you mean because you won't post any pictures.
(https://images2.imgbox.com/52/12/JjzrSFa6_o.jpg)
If the lifting tape is 2" wide, the linear lines are 5/16" apart, the same width as the bayonet lug. (From this page (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,3030.300.html)e )
And, as we have known since 2019, Mr Hosty is lying in his book about what Mr Oswald actually said.
We have it in Mr Hosty's own handwriting:
(https://i.postimg.cc/MppkKCWB/Hosty-parade-crop.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Mr Oswald did not claim to have been eating his lunch in the domino room at the time of the P. Parade. He did, however, claim to have been doing so when he saw Messrs Jarman & Norman passing through shortly before the P. Parade.
There is the possibility that Oswald could have been hiding at the NE corner of the 6th floor near an east facing window where he theoretically had LOS to Norman and Jarman walking at ground level along the Houston st. side of TSBD. Oswald therefore upon hearing them on 5th floor below him after he placed a box on the SE window ledge at approx 12.24:45, knew Norman and Jarman had to have bypassed the Domino room to re-enter TSBD.
Oswald might have been trying to look out this east facing window to see if the motorcade had yet entered Dealey plaza , while Oswald was waiting for BRW to leave the 6th floor.
Of course this is theoretically not probable if Oswald escaped via staircases, because of Mrs Garner on the 4th floor.
However , an elevator escape is possible if Oswald had an accomplice who could take Oswald via the East elevator from 6th floor to the 2nd floor landing by 50 sec post shots, thus bypassing Garner who had no LOS from her position by a west window near the staircase. The accomplice then returned the east elevator to the 5th floor by 70 secs post shots where it appeared stationary when Truly and Baker supposedly arrived at that time to the.rear elevator shaft. The West elevator was then taken down by either the accomplice or Jack Dougherty after Truly and Baker began their ascent up the staircases.
However, for the elevator escape scenario to be possible requires that BRW must leave the SE window by 12:23:30 which in turn requires Norman and Jarman to leave from the front side of TSBD EXACTLY at 1:22 so that they get to 5th floor windows BEFORE BRW joined them.
If Walt’s timeline is the more accurate, then it’s several minutes PAST 1:22 (after the radio heard) that Norman and Jarman started their return , passing the Domino room at 12:25 and not until 12:27 approx getting to their 5th floor windows.
If Walt’s timeline , then not only is it impossible for Oswald to place the box on the window ledge by 12:25., it’s impossible for ANY gunman to have done so unless BRW was the one who placed the box, which makes no sense unless BRW is helping the shooter.
The only way imo to resolve this dilemma would be to refute the supposedly confirmed time stamp of the Bronson film starting at 12:25.