JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: Dan O'meara on April 05, 2023, 01:49:10 AM
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From the HSCA Medical Panel Report.
An FBI report describes the disposition of metal fragments removed from John Connally:
"Doctor Charles Francis Gregory...performed surgery on Govenor John Connally...he removed from the arm a small metal fragment...the small metal fragment was placed into a transparent container for preservation...no other bits or pieces of metal removed from the Govenor's body...Surgery Supervisor Audrey Bell took custody of the fragment of metal removed from the Governor's arm...Miss Bell obtained a receipt from State Trooper Bob Nolan...and transferred the metal fragment to him.."
So far, so good.
Gregory states that he removed a single metal fragment from JBC's arm and that no other fragments were recovered. The fragment was given to Audrey Bell who then passed it on to Trooper Nolan.
Another FBI report states that Nolan, unsure what to do with the fragment, called DPD HQ and was told to bring it in to Will Fritz.
Further on in the Medical Panel report it states:
"This fragment is labeled "Q9 metal fragment removed from arm of Governor John Connally", in FBI report "DL 89-18" and in correspondence addressed to Dallas Police Chief Jesse E Curry."
Below is a copy of the report listing the evidence that was handed in to the FBI lab in Washington. Q6 to Q13 is a list of the evidence Vince Drain brought to Washington from Dallas Police Department on the night of the assassination. It includes Q9 - "Metal fragment from arm of Governor John Connally"
(https://i.postimg.cc/BbzZ3gH8/FBIreportfragments.jpg) (https://postimages.org/) (https://suwalls.com/fantasy/fantasy-world)
This all seems quite straight forward.
Gregory took a single metal fragment from JBC's arm, gave it to Bell, who gave it to Nolan, who gave it to Fritz. From the DPD, Vince Drain brought it to the FBI lab in Washington where it was received by Frazier who assigned the Q numbers.
What could possibly go wrong?
This is from the same Medical Panel report:
"Doctor Gregory's operative record describes the course of the missile through the wrist:
...Small bits of metal were encountered at various levels throughout the wound and wherever they were identified and could be picked up were picked up and have been submitted to the pathology department for identification and examination."
Errm...
In the FBI report Gregory seemed adamant that a single metal fragment was removed from the arm and that this was given to Bell who then gave it to Nolan. Now, in Gregory's operative record, we have multiple fragments being removed and sent to the pathology department.
When the evidence from Dallas reached Frazier he numbered the single fragment Q9 and gave it the label "Metal fragment removed from Governor Connally's arm". Metal fragment, singular.
Frazier received a single metal fragment from Dallas, Gregory reported to the FBI that he had removed a single fragment and that "no other bits or pieces of metal removed from the Govenor's body".
Yet his operative record has him removing multiple fragments from JBC's wrist and sending them to the pathology department to be identified and examined.
What's going on?
A summary of an ARRB interview with Surgery Supervisor Audrey Bell states:
"She remembered receiving "3 to 5 fragments, perhaps 4" from the body of Governor Connally on 11/22/63 in his Operating Room."
Okay, this seems to confirm Gregory's operative record that multiple fragments were removed from JBC's wrist. But then the interview summary states:
"When shown an FBI FD-302...she felt it was inaccurate in two respects: it quotes her as turning over "the metal fragment (singular)", whereas she is positive it was multiple fragments; it states she turned over the metal fragment to a Texas State Trooper, whereas she recalls turning it over to plainclothes Federal agents who were either FBI or Secret Service."
Huh?
We seem to have two stories going on at once here-
A single fragment from JBC's body was given to State Trooper Nolan who sent it to Fritz who then sent it on to Frazier via Drain.
AND
Multiple fragments were removed which were then handed over to Federal agents.
How do we make sense of these conflicting reports?
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SA Robert Frazier was the Lead Examiner in the JFK assassination investigation.
As the evidence from the crime came into the FBI Lab in Washington, it was Frazier who assigned each piece of evidence a "Q" or "K"number, and it was he who gave each piece of evidence it's specific label.
Frazier dealt with things on a microscopic level and was meticulous in his handling of the evidence. When he gives Q9 the label "Metal fragment from arm of Governor John Connally", he is talking about a single fragment. There can be little doubt about that.
Frazier confirms this in his WC testimony:
Specter: Was a fragment of metal brought to you which was identified as coming from the wrist of Governor Connally?
Frazier: It was identified to me as having come from the arm of Governor Connally.
Specter: Will you produce that fragment at this time, please?
Frazier: This one does not have a Commission number as yet.
Specter: May it please the Commission, I would like to have this fragment marked as Commission Exhibit 842.
(Commission Exhibit No. 842 was marked for identification and received in evidence.)
Specter: Now, referring to a fragment heretofore marked as Q9 for FBI record purposes, and now marked as Commission Exhibit No. 842, will you describe that fragment for us, please?
Frazier: Yes, sir; this is a small fragment of metal which weighed one-half a grain when I first examined it in the laboratory. It is a piece of lead, and could have been a part or a bullet or a core of a bullet.
However, it lacks any physical characteristics which would permit stating whether or not it actually originated from a bullet.
Specter: Are its physical characteristics consistent with having come from Commission Exhibit 399?
Frazier: Yes, sir; it could have.
Specter: Were the characteristics of the fragment identified as Commission Exhibit 842 consistent with having come from the fragment heretofore identified as Commission Exhibit 569?
Frazier: Yes, sir.
Specter: Would you set forth from the records of the FBI, if you have those before you, the chain of possession of the fragment identified as Commission Exhibit 842, please?
Frazier: Commission Exhibit 842, that is the one from Governor Connally's arm, was delivered to me in the FBI laboratory on November 23, 1963, by Special Agent Vincent E. Drain of the Dallas Office of the FBI, who stated he had secured this item from Capt. Will Fritz of the Dallas Police Department.
I do not know where Captain Fritz obtained it.
Frazier could not be more specific - a single metal bullet fragment was delivered to him by SA Vince Drain, from the DPD.
He describes the metal fragment in detail and this important piece of evidence is given the commission number CE 842.
So when we go to CE 842 we should be fully expecting to see a picture of a single bullet fragment.
Think again...
(https://i.postimg.cc/Kvb8DyM1/Screenshot-327.png) (https://postimages.org/)
In the picture above there at least 3 fragments.
How can this be when Frazier is specifically describing a single fragment?
This is a man dealing with things in forensic detail.
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Could the single bullet fragment have broken apart? If someone shook or dropped that plastic case the fragment could potentially have broken apart.
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Could the single bullet fragment have broken apart? If someone shook or dropped that plastic case the fragment could potentially have broken apart.
Not really the issue Gerry.
An FBI report dated the 30th [SA Doyle Williams] states that Gregory removed a single metal fragment from JBC's arm and that Gregory himself stated that no other bits of metal were removed from JBC's body. Gregory also reported that Surgery Supervisor, Audrey Bell, took custody of the metal fragment and that she received a receipt for it from State Trooper Bob Nolan.
Another FBI report by Williams dated the 23rd, states that a bullet fragment was turned over to Tooper Nolan at Parkland and that he eventually turned it over to Will Fritz. This fragment was part of the evidence collected by SA Vince Drain and transported to the FBI lab in Washington where it was received by SA Robert Frazier, Lead Examiner of the investigation into the assassination. Frazier recorded it as being a single fragment and gave it the Q number Q9.
A single fragment removed by Gregory and recorded by Frazier as a single fragment.
But then we have Gregory's operative record - that he removed multiple fragments at various levels of flesh. And Audrey Bell insisting she received multiple fragments, "perhaps 4", from JBC's body and turned them over to plainsclothes federal agents, not a state trooper.
When showed CE 842 she accepts the envelope was the one she used that day (she even points the word "fragments" out, meaning multiple fragments) but when showed the picture of the fragments she stated they "were too small, and were too few in number, to represent what she handled on 11/23/63".
We have two completely different narratives concerning the number fragments removed from Connally's wrist and what happened to them. These are documented difference and have nothing to do with shaking containers.
But there does seem to be a way of definitively ascertaining how many fragments were removed from Connally's wrist. This is from Dr. Gregory's WC testimony:
Dr. GREGORY. Only to indicate that there were two fragments of metal retrieved in the course of dealing with this wound surgically.
For the subsequent X-rays of the same area, after the initial surgery indicate that those fragments are no longer there.
And as I stated, I thought I had retrieved two of them. The major one or ones now being missing. The small one related to the bone or most closely related to the bone...
Not one, not four, but two fragments.
In this section of his testimony, Gregory is referring to sets of X-rays that were taken of JBC's wrist pre-op and post-op. They demonstrate beyond doubt that before JBC had surgery performed on his wrist there were three metal fragments in his wrist and that after surgery was performed, only one remained, meaning Gregory had removed two metal fragments.
This, however, doesn't answer Audrey Bell's recollection of turning over the fragments to federal agents and not State Trooper Nolan.
And it most certainly doesn't answer why Frazier, so meticulous when recording other evidence, would label Q9 as a single fragment.
But it is definitive, right?
The X-rays prove two fragments were removed from JBC's wrist, right?
Then we come to a the picture of Q9 in the National Archives:
(https://i.postimg.cc/MG6DFNRm/Screenshot-334.png) (https://postimages.org/)
FOUR FRAGMENTS!!
Just as Audrey Bell thought there was.
What on earth can explain all of these differences in narratives and physical evidence?
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Must look into it more so.
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A quick review of the physical evidence concerning the fragments removed from JBC's wrist;
(https://i.postimg.cc/857jVJFz/JBCwrist-Op.png) (https://postimages.org/)
To the left is a crop of CE 691, an X-ray of the wrist before surgery.
There are three well-defined fragments - a larger one, beneath that a smaller one and near the larger one, a small particle.
To the right is a crop of CE 692, an X-ray of the wrist after surgery.
It is clear the larger fragment and the particle are gone, leaving the smaller fragment, picked out by the yellow arrow.
There is, what appears to be, another fragment above and to the right but let's just assume that's some kind of artifact as things are complicated enough.
We can conclude from this that the larger fragment and the particle were removed during surgery, leaving the smaller fragment in place.
(https://i.postimg.cc/1zZHXS0S/CE843crop.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Above is a crop of CE 843, the fragments removed from JBC's wrist.
We can see the larger fragment and the particle.
Unexpectedly there is another fragment in the centre of the dish. It is comparatively similar in size to the smaller fragment left in JBC's wrist.
Where did this extra fragment come from?
(https://i.postimg.cc/MG6DFNRm/Screenshot-334.png) (https://postimages.org/)
This a picture of the fragments removed from JBC's wrist as they are in the National Archives.
The particle has disappeared and two more extra fragments have appeared from nowhere.
Where have these extra fragments come from?
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(https://i.postimg.cc/1z3zM4wM/Screenshot-348.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Any help identifying these initials would be greatly appreciated.
I've got the ones in the red circle:
RF = Robert Frazier
CK = Charles Killion
JH = Cortland Cunningham [not sure why but that's the initials he uses]
I would expect to possibly see the initials of Bob Nolan (he said he signed the envelope), Will Fritz and Vince Drain.
There is an interesting one in the bottom left hand corner. It looks like V W [it might not be] and is dated 11/22/63. Would really like to know who this is.
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I think that's supposed to be Vince Drain.
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The fragments are referred to in the singular multiple times by multiple people, including Audrey Bell herself. She wrote "fragments" on the envelope containing the fragments and "fragment" on the transfer receipt. The large fragment stood out, and the tiny ones did not. Bell couldn't even see them in the photocopy shown to her during her ARRB interview.
(https://i.imgur.com/GwCpAGK.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/H9NI4Fd.jpg)
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(https://i.postimg.cc/1zZHXS0S/CE843crop.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Above is a crop of CE 843, the fragments removed from JBC's wrist.
We can see the larger fragment and the particle.
Unexpectedly there is another fragment in the centre of the dish. It is comparatively similar in size to the smaller fragment left in JBC's wrist.
Where did this extra fragment come from?
(https://i.postimg.cc/MG6DFNRm/Screenshot-334.png) (https://postimages.org/)
This a picture of the fragments removed from JBC's wrist as they are in the National Archives.
The particle has disappeared and two more extra fragments have appeared from nowhere.
Where have these extra fragments come from?
CE 843 is fragments removed from Kennedy's brain.
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(https://i.postimg.cc/1z3zM4wM/Screenshot-348.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Any help identifying these initials would be greatly appreciated.
I've got the ones in the red circle:
RF = Robert Frazier
CK = Charles Killion
JH = Cortland Cunningham [not sure why but that's the initials he uses]
I would expect to possibly see the initials of Bob Nolan (he said he signed the envelope), Will Fritz and Vince Drain.
There is an interesting one in the bottom left hand corner. It looks like V W [it might not be] and is dated 11/22/63. Would really like to know who this is.
Cortlandt Cunningham chose not to use CC because of its carbon copy meaning.
Bobby M. Nolan's initials are on the envelope. He positively identified them on that photocopy of the image of the envelope. They are upside down compared with the others.
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Nice work Tim, you've cleared up so many issues including a massive error on my part regarding CE843. I thought that there were only two fragments removed from JFK's head and there appeared to be 3 fragments in the picture I posted which confused me. The two fragments from JBC's wrist can be seen in the rectangular transparent container next to the envelope in the top picture:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Kvb8DyM1/Screenshot-327.png) (https://postimages.org/)
These are obviously the two fragments Gregory testifies to removing, which is confirmed by the pre-op and post-op X-rays.
Audrey Bell must be mistaken about the number of fragments removed and about turning them over to a plainclothes officer instead of s State Trooper (unless Nolan wasn't in uniform that day).
The envelope is surely the one that made it's from from Bell to Nolan to Fritz to Drain to Frazier.
The FBI report [30/11/63] about Gregory removing a single fragment must also be some kind of mistake.
It is also possible that Frazier labeling Q9 as a single fragment instead of multiple fragments might be some kind of convention, although in other examples he specifically refers to the amount of fragments. And in his WC testimony he only refers to a single fragment.
The only thing that hasn't really been cleared up is the picture of Q9 [FBI C9] in the National Archives:
(https://i.postimg.cc/MG6DFNRm/Screenshot-334.png) (https://postimages.org/)
I don't see how this can possibly relate to the two fragments taken from JBC's wrist.
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Audrey Bell was not mistaken about the number of fragments. Those four in CE-842 are fragments that Dr. Gregory removed from the wrist. Bell was mistaken about who she passed the fragments to though. It was Nolan and he had to have been out of uniform. That was not uncommon for Texas Highway Patrolmen back then. Gregory never specified in his operative report of Nov 22 as to how many fragments that he removed. He just wrote that "Small bits of metal were encountered at various levels throughout the wound and these were wherever they were identified and could be picked up were picked up". According to Gregory, one of the Pre-OP X-Rays appeared to show seven or eight.
CE-843 contains two fragments, not three.
(https://i.imgur.com/rpy6Azk.jpg)
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Cortlandt Cunningham chose not to use CC because of its carbon copy meaning.
Bobby M. Nolan's initials are on the envelope. He positively identified them on that photocopy of the image of the envelope. They are upside down compared with the others.
Amazing how this chain of custody matter is being commented about by somebody who in another thread claims that inclusion in a chain of custody isn't necessary.
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Amazing how this chain of custody matter is being commented about by somebody who in another thread claims that inclusion in a chain of custody isn't necessary.
It seems to me that those fragments were not, and are not, readily identifiable. I think having a chain of custody for them would probably be recommended. But, I'm not a self-proclaimed lawyer like you. So, what do I know? ::)
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Nice work Tim, you've cleared up so many issues including a massive error on my part regarding CE843. I thought that there were only two fragments removed from JFK's head and there appeared to be 3 fragments in the picture I posted which confused me. The two fragments from JBC's wrist can be seen in the rectangular transparent container next to the envelope in the top picture:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Kvb8DyM1/Screenshot-327.png) (https://postimages.org/)
These are obviously the two fragments Gregory testifies to removing, which is confirmed by the pre-op and post-op X-rays.
Audrey Bell must be mistaken about the number of fragments removed and about turning them over to a plainclothes officer instead of s State Trooper (unless Nolan wasn't in uniform that day).
The envelope is surely the one that made it's from from Bell to Nolan to Fritz to Drain to Frazier.
The FBI report [30/11/63] about Gregory removing a single fragment must also be some kind of mistake.
It is also possible that Frazier labeling Q9 as a single fragment instead of multiple fragments might be some kind of convention, although in other examples he specifically refers to the amount of fragments. And in his WC testimony he only refers to a single fragment.
The only thing that hasn't really been cleared up is the picture of Q9 [FBI C9] in the National Archives:
(https://i.postimg.cc/MG6DFNRm/Screenshot-334.png) (https://postimages.org/)
I don't see how this can possibly relate to the two fragments taken from JBC's wrist.
The spectrographic testing that was done by the FBI was destructive, so instead of subjecting the entire fragment to testing, samples were cut from the fragment and used instead. They were not always destroyed, and those pieces may have been reunited with the other fragments in the exhibit. I'm not saying that this is what happened, but it's worth keeping in mind.
BTW, the NAA was a bit different. While NAA is not inherently destructive, it does involve shoving a sample into the heart of a nuclear reactor and irradiating the hell out of it. While the sample won't lose any mass, it tend to become highly radioactive. IIRC, the bits that were used for NAA were discarded as radioactive waste after testing.
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Audrey Bell was not mistaken about the number of fragments. Those four in CE-842 are fragments that Dr. Gregory removed from the wrist. Bell was mistaken about who she passed the fragments to though. It was Nolan and he had to have been out of uniform. That was not uncommon for Texas Highway Patrolmen back then. Gregory never specified in his operative report of Nov 22 as to how many fragments that he removed. He just wrote that "Small bits of metal were encountered at various levels throughout the wound and these were wherever they were identified and could be picked up were picked up". According to Gregory, one of the Pre-OP X-Rays appeared to show seven or eight.
CE-843 contains two fragments, not three.
(https://i.imgur.com/rpy6Azk.jpg)
Hi Tim, I was grateful you cleared up the error I made about CE 843, and I'm glad to get a chance to return the favour,
When Gregory is referring to the seven or eight fragments, he is referring to bone fragments:
Dr GREGORY: "...[X-ray]"A" then demonstrates a comminuted fracture of the wrist with three fragments.
Mr. Specter: What do you mean by comminuted?
Dr. GREGORY. Comminuted refers to shattering, to break into more than two pieces, specifically many pieces, and if I may, I can point out there is a fragment here, a fragment here, a fragment here, a fragment here, and there are several smaller fragments lying in the center of these three larger ones.
Mr. Specter:How many fragments are there in total, sir, in your opinion?
Dr. GREGORY. I would judge from this view that counting each isolated fragment there are fully seven or eight, and experience has taught that when these things are dismantled directly under direct vision that there very obviously may be more than that.
In his WC testimony, Gregory refers to two metallic fragments he removed from JBC. He uses a pre-op X-ray and a post-op X-ray to make his point:
(https://i.postimg.cc/857jVJFz/JBCwrist-Op.png) (https://postimages.org/)
In the pre-op X-ray we can see a larger fragment with a small particle next to it.
In the post-op X-ray they are gone.
The picture of CE 842 which has the envelope and the rectangular clear plastic container. In the container are two fragments - a larger one and a small particle. These two fragments are Q9, even though Frazier believes it is a single fragment.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zG2kMxjs/Screenshot-349.png) (https://postimages.org/)
The problem is that the picture of Q9 in the National Archive has four fragments. A larger one and three smaller ones.
It appears the small particle has disappeared and been replaced by 3 slightly larger fragments.
These 3 additional fragments cannot have come from JBC's wrist, so where have they come from?
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Hi Tim, I was grateful you cleared up the error I made about CE 843, and I'm glad to get a chance to return the favour,
When Gregory is referring to the seven or eight fragments, he is referring to bone fragments:
Dr GREGORY: "...[X-ray]"A" then demonstrates a comminuted fracture of the wrist with three fragments.
Mr. Specter: What do you mean by comminuted?
Dr. GREGORY. Comminuted refers to shattering, to break into more than two pieces, specifically many pieces, and if I may, I can point out there is a fragment here, a fragment here, a fragment here, a fragment here, and there are several smaller fragments lying in the center of these three larger ones.
Mr. Specter:How many fragments are there in total, sir, in your opinion?
Dr. GREGORY. I would judge from this view that counting each isolated fragment there are fully seven or eight, and experience has taught that when these things are dismantled directly under direct vision that there very obviously may be more than that.
In his WC testimony, Gregory refers to two metallic fragments he removed from JBC. He uses a pre-op X-ray and a post-op X-ray to make his point:
(https://i.postimg.cc/857jVJFz/JBCwrist-Op.png) (https://postimages.org/)
In the pre-op X-ray we can see a larger fragment with a small particle next to it.
In the post-op X-ray they are gone.
The picture of CE 842 which has the envelope and the rectangular clear plastic container. In the container are two fragments - a larger one and a small particle. These two fragments are Q9, even though Frazier believes it is a single fragment.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zG2kMxjs/Screenshot-349.png) (https://postimages.org/)
The problem is that the picture of Q9 in the National Archive has four fragments. A larger one and three smaller ones.
It appears the small particle has disappeared and been replaced by 3 slightly larger fragments.
These 3 additional fragments cannot have come from JBC's wrist, so where have they come from?
Thank you for pointing out my error to me. I stand corrected. Regarding the question on the number of fragments in CE-842, you should be wary of using the poor quality photocopy for determining the number of fragments in that exhibit. I think that your yellow labelling has hidden the other two tiny fragments from view.
(https://i.imgur.com/fvbDujl.jpg)
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Thank you for pointing out my error to me. I stand corrected. Regarding the question on the number of fragments in CE-842, you should be wary of using the poor quality photocopy for determining the number of fragments in that exhibit. I think that your yellow labelling has hidden the other two tiny fragments from view.
(https://i.imgur.com/fvbDujl.jpg)
I discounted the other "fragment" for two reasons.
Firstly, the X-rays I posted show that two fragments have been removed from JBC's leg - a larger one and s small particle.
The two fragments Gregory testified to removing.
I assumed the fragments I labeled were these two fragments as the other "fragment" appears as just a straight line in the pic I was using:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Hsbt3L6N/Screenshot-350.png) (https://postimages.org/)
But in the pic you posted it does appear as two separate things.
Which makes things even more baffling.
The FBI report states that Gregory only removed one fragment.
Frazier labels Q9 as a single fragment and states in his WC testimony Q9 is a single fragment.
When Frazier found three small fragments on the limo floor he labeled them as three fragments, not a single fragment. Why would he list four fragments from JBC's arm as a single fragment?
Gregory testifies that he removed two fragments.
The X-rays show he removed two fragments.
Audrey Bell states she received "perhaps 4" fragments.
The picture in the National Archives shows four fragments.
WTF is going on??
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I discounted the other "fragment" for two reasons.
Firstly, the X-rays I posted show that two fragments have been removed from JBC's leg - a larger one and s small particle.
The two fragments Gregory testified to removing.
I assumed the fragments I labeled were these two fragments as the other "fragment" appears as just a straight line in the pic I was using:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Hsbt3L6N/Screenshot-350.png) (https://postimages.org/)
But in the pic you posted it does appear as two separate things.
Which makes things even more baffling.
The FBI report states that Gregory only removed one fragment.
Frazier labels Q9 as a single fragment and states in his WC testimony Q9 is a single fragment.
When Frazier found three small fragments on the limo floor he labeled them as three fragments, not a single fragment. Why would he list four fragments from JBC's arm as a single fragment?
Gregory testifies that he removed two fragments.
The X-rays show he removed two fragments.
Audrey Bell states she received "perhaps 4" fragments.
The picture in the National Archives shows four fragments.
WTF is going on??
Dr. Gregory said that he thought that he removed two or three fragments. Audrey Bell said three to five. She thought four. There was more than one X-Ray taken pre-operation. That some tiny fragments did not show on those X-rays does not mean that they were not in the wrist.
The four fragments at one time were referred to in the singular by Bell herself. Three are so tiny that they just did not stand out like the large one did. None of the fragments found by Frazier in the limo were tiny. All three appear to be of equal size.
(https://i.imgur.com/AvlOQGT.jpg)
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Dr. Gregory said that he thought that he removed two or three fragments. Audrey Bell said three to five. She thought four. There was more than one X-Ray taken pre-operation. That some tiny fragments did not show on those X-rays does not mean that they were not in the wrist.
The four fragments at one time were referred to in the singular by Bell herself. Three are so tiny that they just did not stand out like the large one did. None of the fragments found by Frazier in the limo were tiny. All three appear to be of equal size.
(https://i.imgur.com/AvlOQGT.jpg)
Dr. Gregory said that he thought that he removed two or three fragments.
Could you cite where he says this because in his WC testimony he is adamant he removed just two.
He points to three metal fragments in the pre-op X-ray then points out the two that have been removed in the post-op X-ray and states that he removed the two fragments that are missing from the post-op X-ray.
Audrey Bell said three to five. She thought four.
Agreed
There was more than one X-Ray taken pre-operation
Yeah, Gregory states that in his WC testimony. But I'm not 100% sure what point you're making.
That some tiny fragments did not show on those X-rays does not mean that they were not in the wrist.
To be honest, Tim, this just sounds like something you're making up.
As far as this aspect of the case is concerned, there is no evidence to support this and strong evidence to refute it.
The pre-op X-ray clearly shows a larger fragment and a "satellite" fragment near it. Any other fragments the same size as the "satellite" fragment would have shown up as well.
Are you basing this statement on any kind of evidence?
The four fragments at one time were referred to in the singular by Bell herself.
Could you cite where this is as I can't find it.
Three are so tiny that they just did not stand out like the large one did. None of the fragments found by Frazier in the limo were tiny. All three appear to be of equal size.
Again, I'm not sure what your point is.
Are you saying that Frazier simply missed three of the Q9 fragments because they were so small, and that is why he referred to Q9 as a single fragment?
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Dr. Gregory said that he thought that he removed two or three fragments.
Could you cite where he says this because in his WC testimony he is adamant he removed just two.
Dr. GREGORY - A preliminary X-ray had indicated that there were metallic fragments or at least metallic fragments which cast metallic shadows in the soft tissues around the wounded forearm. Two or three of these were identified and were recovered and were observed to be metallic in consistency.
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/gregory2.htm
That some tiny fragments did not show on those X-rays does not mean that they were not in the wrist.
To be honest, Tim, this just sounds like something you're making up.
As far as this aspect of the case is concerned, there is no evidence to support this and strong evidence to refute it.
The pre-op X-ray clearly shows a larger fragment and a "satellite" fragment near it. Any other fragments the same size as the "satellite" fragment would have shown up as well.
Are you basing this statement on any kind of evidence?
The fragments are so tiny that Audrey Bell could not make them out in the photocopy image of them during her ARRB interview. You failed to see two of them yourself. I'm not making anything up.
The four fragments at one time were referred to in the singular by Bell herself.
Could you cite where this is as I can't find it.
I already showed you once. Here it is again:
(https://i.imgur.com/H9NI4Fd.jpg)
Three are so tiny that they just did not stand out like the large one did. None of the fragments found by Frazier in the limo were tiny. All three appear to be of equal size.
Again, I'm not sure what your point is.
Are you saying that Frazier simply missed three of the Q9 fragments because they were so small, and that is why he referred to Q9 as a single fragment?
I'm saying that Frazier did similar to what Audrey Bell did. The large fragment stands out. The other three are so tiny that they were ignored by Frazier.
What are you reaching for with this whole thing anyway? CE-842 speaks for itself. Four fragments in total.
(https://i.imgur.com/GH0modO.gif)
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Dr. GREGORY - A preliminary X-ray had indicated that there were metallic fragments or at least metallic fragments which cast metallic shadows in the soft tissues around the wounded forearm. Two or three of these were identified and were recovered and were observed to be metallic in consistency.
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/gregory2.htm
The fragments are so tiny that Audrey Bell could not make them out in the photocopy image of them during her ARRB interview. You failed to see two of them yourself. I'm not making anything up.
I already showed you once. Here it is again:
(https://i.imgur.com/H9NI4Fd.jpg)
I'm saying that Frazier did similar to what Audrey Bell did. The large fragment stands out. The other three are so tiny that they were ignored by Frazier.
What are you reaching for with this whole thing anyway? CE-842 speaks for itself. Four fragments in total.
(https://i.imgur.com/GH0modO.gif)
What are you reaching for with this whole thing anyway?
Although both JFK and JBC were shot through with the same bullet, I do not believe that bullet was CE 399.
It is my opinion that the bullet passed through both men and fragmented upon impact with JBC's wrist.
(https://i.postimg.cc/v8gDC1s3/Screenshot-351.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Above is a picture of a wrist bone through which a bullet has traveled.
I understand it, it makes sense to me - the bullet has impacted the bone and as it has travelled through the bone it has removed the bone out of the way leaving a hole where bone used to be. It seems obvious, to me at least, that in order for the bullet to travel through the bone, it has to move the bone out of the way. This leaves a hole where the bullet has traveled, as in the picture above.
(https://content.invisioncic.com/r16296/post-6369-0-74333400-1385381514.jpg)
(originally posted by Jerry Organ)
I don't understand this picture.
How has the bullet traveled through the bone without moving it out of the way? Where is the hole?
I could understand it if the bullet entered the wrist from directly above and passed btween the two main bones of the arm. But that's not what happens. The bullet impacts the radius from the side and, apparently, passes through one of the most dense bones in the body and exits through the crease of the wrist. The transit of the bullet is from one side of the radius to the other, without moving the bone out of the way.
There are no bullet fragments in JBC's chest even though one of his ribs was obliterated. But there are multiple fragments related to the wrist injury. I wanted to understand the wrist injury in more detail, particularly how many fragments were removed/remained in the wrist.
Immediately I came across the FBI report [11/30/63] stating Gregory removed one fragment and no other bits of metal and then Gregory's operative record revealing the he removed multiple fragments. The more information I found the more confusing things became. So now I'm just trying to unravel what was going on with the fragments.
By the way, I don't buy your heavily pixelated picture supposedly revealing two more fragments.
I don't buy that there were fragments that didn't show up in the many X-rays but were still mysteriously present.
I also don't buy that Frazier receives a package stating that it contains "fragments" (plural), but only notices one fragment in the transparent plastic case. Or that, months later, he still testifies that Q9 is a single fragment.
CE-842 speaks for itself. Four fragments in total.
It most certainly does. Four fragments in total - even though only two were removed from JBC's wrist.
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What are you reaching for with this whole thing anyway?
Although both JFK and JBC were shot through with the same bullet, I do not believe that bullet was CE 399.
Why not?
It is my opinion that the bullet passed through both men and fragmented upon impact with JBC's wrist.
What are you basing that opinion on?
(https://i.postimg.cc/v8gDC1s3/Screenshot-351.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Above is a picture of a wrist bone through which a bullet has traveled.
I understand it, it makes sense to me - the bullet has impacted the bone and as it has travelled through the bone it has removed the bone out of the way leaving a hole where bone used to be. It seems obvious, to me at least, that in order for the bullet to travel through the bone, it has to move the bone out of the way. This leaves a hole where the bullet has traveled, as in the picture above.
The bullet that struck that wrist was travelling at near muzzle velocity. That's why the damage is so severe and the hole is so obvious.
(https://content.invisioncic.com/r16296/post-6369-0-74333400-1385381514.jpg)
(originally posted by Jerry Organ)
I don't understand this picture.
How has the bullet traveled through the bone without moving it out of the way? Where is the hole?
I could understand it if the bullet entered the wrist from directly above and passed btween the two main bones of the arm. But that's not what happens. The bullet impacts the radius from the side and, apparently, passes through one of the most dense bones in the body and exits through the crease of the wrist. The transit of the bullet is from one side of the radius to the other, without moving the bone out of the way.
When the bullet struck that bone it was travelling well below muzzle velocity. The bone was moved out of the way. And while the hole may not be apparent in that X-Ray, it is there.
There are no bullet fragments in JBC's chest even though one of his ribs was obliterated. But there are multiple fragments related to the wrist injury.
The reason that fragments were deposited in the wrist is because the bullet struck it base end forward. Lead that was extruding from the flattened bullet broke off.
I wanted to understand the wrist injury in more detail, particularly how many fragments were removed/remained in the wrist.
Immediately I came across the FBI report [11/30/63] stating Gregory removed one fragment and no other bits of metal and then Gregory's operative record revealing the he removed multiple fragments. The more information I found the more confusing things became. So now I'm just trying to unravel what was going on with the fragments.
By the way, I don't buy your heavily pixelated picture supposedly revealing two more fragments.
I don't buy that there were fragments that didn't show up in the many X-rays but were still mysteriously present.
I also don't buy that Frazier receives a package stating that it contains "fragments" (plural), but only notices one fragment in the transparent plastic case. Or that, months later, he still testifies that Q9 is a single fragment.
CE-842 speaks for itself. Four fragments in total.
It most certainly does. Four fragments in total - even though only two were removed from JBC's wrist.
Explain the conflicting information contained in the following two images.
(https://i.imgur.com/GwCpAGK.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/H9NI4Fd.jpg)
You can deny what is seen in my "heavily pixelated picture" all you want, but you cannot honestly deny that CE-842 is made up of four fragments. Those fragments were removed from Connally's wrist by Dr. Gregory, as confirmed by Audrey Bell.
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Why not?
This is discussed at length in martin's thread, "A Time to Receive and Give (CE399)
What are you basing that opinion on?
CE399 was not the bullet that impacted JBC's wrist. So the imperative, to have a whole bullet pass through the wrist, disappears, and certain things begin to make a bit more sense (to me, at least)
The pre-op X-ray of JBC's wrist shows there is no "channel" through the bone, the bullet impacted the side of the radius and, in order for it to exit through the crease in the wrist, would have to pass directly through one of the densest bones in the body. There is no hint of this happening in the X-ray.
If the bullet fragmented on contact with the wrist, I could see how a smaller part of it might get through to exit through the crease in the wrist. The remainder of the bullet would, most probably, end up on the limo floor.
Multiple fragments are discovered throughout the wound. I can easily see how this might happen in the case of fragmentation but I have great difficulty understanding how this could be the case if CE399 were the bullet involved.
The problem with CE399 is that the only place lead fragments could come from is the base of the bullet. They can't come from anywhere else on the bullet. It was quickly realised that, in order to be able to explain how CE399 could leave metal fragments in the wound, it must have entered the wound base first. This was not based on evidence relating to the wound itself - the size, shape or disposition of the wound - it was simply an invention of necessity. In turn this led to the idea of a "tumbling bullet", which is something I have great difficulty envisaging.
Was the bullet tumbling through JBC's chest? I don't know.
The impression I get is that, "officially", the bullet entered and exited JBC's torso nose-first and when it exited his chest it began rotating at an unbelievably high speed, so that it hit the wrist base-first. The problem with this is that the bullet would still have been rotating at an incredibly high speed as it traveled through the wrist.
The X-ray of JBC's wrist doesn't show a hole where a bullet might have traveled directly through without rotating, let alone a rotating bullet, which would surely have blown his hand off!
Which brings us to the exit wound, a one centimeter long slit!!
This rotating bullet, smashing through the radius, scattering metallic fragments as it goes, leaves a one centimeter long slit as it exits.
I simply don't buy that.
The bullet that struck that wrist was travelling at near muzzle velocity. That's why the damage is so severe and the hole is so obvious.
When the bullet struck that bone it was travelling well below muzzle velocity. The bone was moved out of the way. And while the hole may not be apparent in that X-Ray, it is there.
"...the hole may not be apparent in that X-Ray, it is there."
Hmmm...
This is a bit like you're contention that, although there are multiple fragments that don't show up on JBC's pre-op X-ray, they are still there.
You can't see it , but it's there! What sort of argument is that?
It just leads to a 'pantomime' argument - "Oh yes it is", "Oh no it isn't".
The reason that fragments were deposited in the wrist is because the bullet struck it base end forward. Lead that was extruding from the flattened bullet broke off.
Do you imagine the bullet was rotating as it passed through the wrist, or that it passed through base-first all the way?
Explain the conflicting information contained in the following two images.
(https://i.imgur.com/GwCpAGK.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/H9NI4Fd.jpg)
Assuming it's Bell's writing on both items - on one she describes a fragment (singular), on the other she describes fragments (plural).
Why?
I literally don't have a clue.
You can deny what is seen in my "heavily pixelated picture" all you want, but you cannot honestly deny that CE-842 is made up of four fragments. Those fragments were removed from Connally's wrist by Dr. Gregory, as confirmed by Audrey Bell.
You can deny what is seen in my "heavily pixelated picture" all you want
Thanks, I will. Thumb1:
but you cannot honestly deny that CE-842 is made up of four fragments.
Where have I denied that the picture in the National Archives depicts four fragments?
Gregory testifies to removing two fragments.
The X-rays prove he removed two fragments.
Frazier only recorded a single fragment from JBC's arm. Even though the envelope he received them in stated "fragments" plural.
The original FBI report states that a single fragment was removed.
The hospital memo states one fragment was handed over to Nolan (who thought the fragment came from JBC's thigh!)
Do you think you can unravel all this with a dodgy, heavily pixelated pic?
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This is discussed at length in martin's thread, "A Time to Receive and Give (CE399)
We're not in Martin's thread. I'm asking you here. Why do you believe that CE 399 was not the bullet that struck both Kennedy and Connally?
CE399 was not the bullet that impacted JBC's wrist. So the imperative, to have a whole bullet pass through the wrist, disappears, and certain things begin to make a bit more sense (to me, at least)
How have you determined that CE-399 was not the bullet that struck Connally's wrist?
The pre-op X-ray of JBC's wrist shows there is no "channel" through the bone, the bullet impacted the side of the radius and, in order for it to exit through the crease in the wrist, would have to pass directly through one of the densest bones in the body. There is no hint of this happening in the X-ray.
Dr Gregory testified that the bullet passed through the bone. That the hole is not apparent to you in the X-Ray does not mean that it isn't there.
Multiple fragments are discovered throughout the wound. I can easily see how this might happen in the case of fragmentation but I have great difficulty understanding how this could be the case if CE399 were the bullet involved.
The problem with CE399 is that the only place lead fragments could come from is the base of the bullet. They can't come from anywhere else on the bullet. It was quickly realised that, in order to be able to explain how CE399 could leave metal fragments in the wound, it must have entered the wound base first. This was not based on evidence relating to the wound itself - the size, shape or disposition of the wound - it was simply an invention of necessity. In turn this led to the idea of a "tumbling bullet", which is something I have great difficulty envisaging.
Was the bullet tumbling through JBC's chest? I don't know.
The impression I get is that, "officially", the bullet entered and exited JBC's torso nose-first and when it exited his chest it began rotating at an unbelievably high speed, so that it hit the wrist base-first. The problem with this is that the bullet would still have been rotating at an incredibly high speed as it traveled through the wrist.
The X-ray of JBC's wrist doesn't show a hole where a bullet might have traveled directly through without rotating, let alone a rotating bullet, which would surely have blown his hand off!
The determination that the bullet struck the wrist base end forward was based on wound ballistics and the sizes and dispositions of the entry and exit wounds. Officially, the bullet did not enter Connally's torso nose first. It was already yawed before entering. When it exited the chest, it was already moving with base end forward.
Which brings us to the exit wound, a one centimeter long slit!!
This rotating bullet, smashing through the radius, scattering metallic fragments as it goes, leaves a one centimeter long slit as it exits.
I simply don't buy that.
The exit wound was a half centimeter in length. Your not buying it doesn't make it any less so.
"...the hole may not be apparent in that X-Ray, it is there."
Hmmm...
This is a bit like you're contention that, although there are multiple fragments that don't show up on JBC's pre-op X-ray, they are still there.
You can't see it , but it's there! What sort of argument is that?
It just leads to a 'pantomime' argument - "Oh yes it is", "Oh no it isn't".
Gregory said it was there. Was he lying?
Do you imagine the bullet was rotating as it passed through the wrist, or that it passed through base-first all the way?
I don't know.
Assuming it's Bell's writing on both items - on one she describes a fragment (singular), on the other she describes fragments (plural).
Why?
I literally don't have a clue.
You can't explain it , yet there it is. Same goes for Frazier referring to it as a fragment.
Where have I denied that the picture in the National Archives depicts four fragments?
Gregory testifies to removing two fragments.
The X-rays prove he removed two fragments.
Frazier only recorded a single fragment from JBC's arm. Even though the envelope he received them in stated "fragments" plural.
The original FBI report states that a single fragment was removed.
The hospital memo states one fragment was handed over to Nolan (who thought the fragment came from JBC's thigh!)
Gregory said two or three. He really couldn't recall.
The X-Rays prove nothing.
The foreign body envelope says fragments. Audrey Bell said four fragments. CE-842 is proof that Gregory removed four fragments.
Do you think you can unravel all this with a dodgy, heavily pixelated pic?
You're the one who introduced the "dodgy, heavily pixelated pic" here, not me.
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Haag demonstrates how the Carcano 6.5mm bullet behaves. It begins to yaw immediately after leaving blocks of ballistic soap and gelatin which mimic human muscle tissue. Watch the video beginning about 25:10.
And there is another demonstration by someone in Australia (if I remember correctly) on video that shows figures set up in the configuration that JFK and JBC were in. It is well worth watching. I will try to find it. But if anyone else knows where it can be found, please post it. Thanks.
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Haag demonstrates how the Carcano 6.5mm bullet behaves. It begins to yaw immediately after leaving blocks of ballistic soap and gelatin which mimic human muscle tissue. Watch the video beginning about 25:10.
And there is another demonstration by someone in Australia (if I remember correctly) on video that shows figures set up in the configuration that JFK and JBC were in. It is well worth watching. I will try to find it. But if anyone else knows where it can be found, please post it. Thanks.
Here’s the second part of the video that I mentioned. The first part contains the specs, etc., you should be able to find the first part if you are interested.
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Not very close to the alleged path of the "single bullet". Note that it exits "JFK"'s chest and enters way below "Connally"'s armpit.
(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/sbt-torsos.jpg)
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Not very close to the alleged path of the "single bullet". Note that it exits "JFK"'s chest and enters way below "Connally"'s armpit.
(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/sbt-torsos.jpg)
The windy conditions caused the platform on the crane to rock in the breeze. But he was still able to get fairly close to the target. He missed to the left and slightly low. Based on my two-laser experiment posted in another thread, I would estimate the exit on the JFK figure could have been to the left and slightly lower than the actual wound in JFK’s throat.
(https://i.vgy.me/aRYHXF.png)
The entry in the JBC figure is only slightly low and to the left.
(https://i.vgy.me/o1iXWX.png)
It appears to have broken the seventh and eighth ribs instead of only the fifth rib. Take your fingers and feel how much distance there is between these ribs on yourself. That is about how much the shot missed the target by (not very much considering the windy conditions).
(https://i.vgy.me/udg385.png)
It exited the JBC figure around the right nipple area and hit another bone in the wrist block. And the bullet had lost enough energy by that time that it just bounced off of the thigh block instead of slightly penetrating it.
(https://i.vgy.me/QN3imy.png)
The bullet was found intact but with more disfiguration than CE 399. It didn’t fragment or completely obliterate a “wrist bone”.
(https://i.vgy.me/I782X2.png)
No one is likely to ever exactly duplicate the single bullet path even with unlimited resources and time. But I think that this demonstration shows that it is feasible.
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Oh, and here is the first part of the Australian demonstration video for those who might be interested.
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We're not in Martin's thread. I'm asking you here. Why do you believe that CE 399 was not the bullet that struck both Kennedy and Connally?
How have you determined that CE-399 was not the bullet that struck Connally's wrist?
Dr Gregory testified that the bullet passed through the bone. That the hole is not apparent to you in the X-Ray does not mean that it isn't there.
The determination that the bullet struck the wrist base end forward was based on wound ballistics and the sizes and dispositions of the entry and exit wounds. Officially, the bullet did not enter Connally's torso nose first. It was already yawed before entering. When it exited the chest, it was already moving with base end forward.
The exit wound was a half centimeter in length. Your not buying it doesn't make it any less so.
Gregory said it was there. Was he lying?
I don't know.
You can't explain it , yet there it is. Same goes for Frazier referring to it as a fragment.
Gregory said two or three. He really couldn't recall.
The X-Rays prove nothing.
The foreign body envelope says fragments. Audrey Bell said four fragments. CE-842 is proof that Gregory removed four fragments.
You're the one who introduced the "dodgy, heavily pixelated pic" here, not me.
We're not in Martin's thread. I'm asking you here. Why do you believe that CE 399 was not the bullet that struck both Kennedy and Connally?
Why would you want to repeat an entire conversation when you can also go to the other thread and find out what you want to know?
Are you just lazy, Tim, or are you just expecting another outcome from the same conversation?
Talk about arguments for argument's sake....
How have you determined that CE-399 was not the bullet that struck Connally's wrist?
Why would anybody have to determine that, when there is not a shred of evidence that the bullet now in evidence as CE399 either struck Connally's wrist or was even found at Parkland?
Dr Gregory testified that the bullet passed through the bone. That the hole is not apparent to you in the X-Ray does not mean that it isn't there.
And Dr Humes said in his WC testimony that he did not believe the bullet now known as CE399 could have gone through Kennedy and Connally. So, where does that leave us?
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We're not in Martin's thread. I'm asking you here. Why do you believe that CE 399 was not the bullet that struck both Kennedy and Connally?
How have you determined that CE-399 was not the bullet that struck Connally's wrist?
You're asking me "here"?
We're on an internet forum. You don't have to trudge across town to read Martin's thread. Martin's thread is also "here". It's a couple of clicks away.
The evidence and arguments that stem from that evidence are lengthy so I will not be reproducing them "here".
But here's a few highlights:
O P Wright (ex-Deputy Chief of Police), the man who handed the bullet found on the stretcher into the official chain of custody, categorically denies that bullet was CE399. As far as he was concerned the bullet had a pointed tip. As ex-police he knows a thing or two about bullets.
Tomlinson, Wright, Johnsen and Rowley all refused to identify CE399 as the bullet they handled that day.
Johnsen and Rowley had already destroyed the chain of custody by not putting their initials on CE 399 and when given the chance to correct this error they both refused to identify CE 399 as the bullet they handled that day. Thus destroying the chain of custody,not once but, twice.
I believe the reason their initials are not on CE399 is because it was not the bullet they handled that day.
I believe the reason they refused to identify CE399 as the bullet they handled that day is because it was not the bullet they handled that day.
There's plenty more but if you're actually interested in why I don't believe CE399 was involved in the shooting you'll have to go all the way over "there" to read it.
Dr Gregory testified that the bullet passed through the bone. That the hole is not apparent to you in the X-Ray does not mean that it isn't there.
There is a channel through the wrist because something passed through the wrist and exited through the small slit at the crease of the wrist.
I'm not disputing that there was a hole there.
What I am disputing is that a whole bullet passed through the wrist-bone, the radius.
The determination that the bullet struck the wrist base end forward was based on wound ballistics and the sizes and dispositions of the entry and exit wounds.
Gregory says it entered base-first because the base was the only place the flakes could have come from. Nothing to do with wound ballistics or anything else.
The exit wound was a half centimeter in length. Your not buying it doesn't make it any less so.
Half a centimeter??
That makes it even more unlikely CE 399 exited through a slit that was less than the diameter of the bullet.
Gregory expresses his surprise that the slit is the exit wound as the smaller wound is usually the entrance wound.
Gregory said it was there. Was he lying?
Can you point out the hole through the radius on the X-rays. Because I can't see it.
Can you?
You can't explain it , yet there it is. Same goes for Frazier referring to it as a fragment.
That's the point of this thread, Tim. There's lots of contrary things about this aspect of the case that don't make sense.
It's not enough to try and just wish it away.
Gregory said two or three. He really couldn't recall.
The X-Rays prove nothing.
The foreign body envelope says fragments. Audrey Bell said four fragments. CE-842 is proof that Gregory removed four fragments.
CE-842 is proof that Gregory removed four fragments.
No it isn't, that's the point of this thread.
CE 842 is Q9 which was labeled as a single fragment. Frazier talked about Q9 as a single fragment in his testimony. The original FBI report states that Gregory said he only removed a single fragment and no more. The hospital memo states that Bell released a single fragment to Nolan.
Gregory never states he removed four fragments anywhere - one, two, three, but not four.
You're the one who introduced the "dodgy, heavily pixelated pic" here, not me.
Ermm,,,
No, Tim.
That was definitely you.
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O P Wright (ex-Deputy Chief of Police), the man who handed the bullet found on the stretcher into the official chain of custody, categorically denies that bullet was CE399. As far as he was concerned the bullet had a pointed tip. As ex-police he knows a thing or two about bullets.
O.P. Wright did not categorically deny that CE-399 was the bullet that he handled on Nov 22, 1963. In fact, he told Bardwell Odum that it appeared to be the same bullet.
Tomlinson, Wright, Johnsen and Rowley all refused to identify CE399 as the bullet they handled that day.
Tomlinson, Wright, Johnsen and Rowley couldn't positively identify CE-399 as being the bullet they handled because none of them had placed their mark on it. Tomlinson and Wright both did say that it looked to be the same bullet though.
Johnsen and Rowley had already destroyed the chain of custody by not putting their initials on CE 399 and when given the chance to correct this error they both refused to identify CE 399 as the bullet they handled that day. Thus destroying the chain of custody,not once but, twice.
I believe the reason their initials are not on CE399 is because it was not the bullet they handled that day.
I believe the reason they refused to identify CE399 as the bullet they handled that day is because it was not the bullet they handled that day.
If a chain of custody was needed, the one that existed would be perfectly fine. Johnsen placing the bullet in the envelope, sealing it, and attaching a letter to the envelope satisfies his link. Rowley did not open the envelope. He wrote a letter about his link. Elmer Todd confirmed that he received the envelope from Rowley. There is no chain of custody issue except in the minds of out of touch conspiracy theorists. CE-399 would not even need a chain of custody to get admitted in court as evidence. It's a non-fungible item that had been made readily identifiable by both Elmer Todd and Robert Frazier. Either one of their positive IDs would suffice. In fact, Frazier positively identified it during his sworn WC testimony.
There is a channel through the wrist because something passed through the wrist and exited through the small slit at the crease of the wrist.
I'm not disputing that there was a hole there.
What I am disputing is that a whole bullet passed through the wrist-bone, the radius.
Gregory testified that it passed through the radius.
Gregory says it entered base-first because the base was the only place the flakes could have come from. Nothing to do with wound ballistics or anything else.
Wound ballistics says that the bullet turned around and exited the chest base end forward.
The word tumbling, whether in air or in tissue, gives the impression that the bullet rotates many times, end-over-end, as it penetrates, but the bullet actually seldom makes a complete 360° turn before exiting a target the size of a human body. Most bullets will never make the full circle, no matter how deeply they penetrate. If it stops in the target, the undeformed bullet almost always comes to rest pointed backward.
SPersonivan, Larry M.. JFK Myths: A Scientific Investigation of the Kennedy Assassination (p. 246). Paragon House. Kindle Edition.
Half a centimeter??
That makes it even more unlikely CE 399 exited through a slit that was less than the diameter of the bullet.
Why?
Can you point out the hole through the radius on the X-rays. Because I can't see it.
Can you?
I can make out what looks to be a hole in the radius. There are actually a couple of candidates for a hole on one of the X-Rays.
CE-842 is proof that Gregory removed four fragments.
No it isn't, that's the point of this thread.
CE 842 is Q9 which was labeled as a single fragment. Frazier talked about Q9 as a single fragment in his testimony. The original FBI report states that Gregory said he only removed a single fragment and no more. The hospital memo states that Bell released a single fragment to Nolan.
Gregory never states he removed four fragments anywhere - one, two, three, but not four.
CE-842 is four fragments. CE-842 was submitted into evidence during Frazier's testimony. CE-842 is proof that Dr. Gregory removed four fragments from Connally.
Ermm,,,
No, Tim.
That was definitely you.
That is False. You introduced it here three days before I even joined the thread.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,3681.msg144193.html#msg144193
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O.P. Wright did not categorically deny that CE-399 was the bullet that he handled on Nov 22, 1963. In fact, he told Bardwell Odum that it appeared to be the same bullet.
Tomlinson, Wright, Johnsen and Rowley couldn't positively identify CE-399 as being the bullet they handled because none of them had placed their mark on it. Tomlinson and Wright both did say that it looked to be the same bullet though.
If a chain of custody was needed, the one that existed would be perfectly fine. Johnsen placing the bullet in the envelope, sealing it, and attaching a letter to the envelope satisfies his link. Rowley did not open the envelope. He wrote a letter about his link. Elmer Todd confirmed that he received the envelope from Rowley. There is no chain of custody issue except in the minds of out of touch conspiracy theorists. CE-399 would not even need a chain of custody to get admitted in court as evidence. It's a non-fungible item that had been made readily identifiable by both Elmer Todd and Robert Frazier. Either one of their positive IDs would suffice. In fact, Frazier positively identified it during his sworn WC testimony.
Gregory testified that it passed through the radius.
Wound ballistics says that the bullet turned around and exited the chest base end forward.
The word tumbling, whether in air or in tissue, gives the impression that the bullet rotates many times, end-over-end, as it penetrates, but the bullet actually seldom makes a complete 360° turn before exiting a target the size of a human body. Most bullets will never make the full circle, no matter how deeply they penetrate. If it stops in the target, the undeformed bullet almost always comes to rest pointed backward.
SPersonivan, Larry M.. JFK Myths: A Scientific Investigation of the Kennedy Assassination (p. 246). Paragon House. Kindle Edition.
Why?
I can make out what looks to be a hole in the radius. There are actually a couple of candidates for a hole on one of the X-Rays.
CE-842 is four fragments. CE-842 was submitted into evidence during Frazier's testimony. CE-842 is proof that Dr. Gregory removed four fragments from Connally.
That is False. You introduced it here three days before I even joined the thread.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,3681.msg144193.html#msg144193
In fact, he told Bardwell Odum that it appeared to be the same bullet.
No he didn't. That's just what it said in CE2011. Odum denied that he ever had or showed CE399 to anybody. The FBI just made it up to satisfy the WC. Odum's name is not in the chain of custody for CE399.
Tomlinson and Wright both did say that it looked to be the same bullet though.
Again, no they didn't. Shanklin's airtel proves this is false and Tomlinson is on record twice saying that he was shown a bullet only once, by SAC Shanklin, about a week after the assassination. Tomlinson and Wright never told Odum anything of the kind.
If a chain of custody was needed, the one that existed would be perfectly fine. Johnsen placing the bullet in the envelope, sealing it, and attaching a letter to the envelope satisfies his link. Rowley did not open the envelope. He wrote a letter about his link. Elmer Todd confirmed that he received the envelope from Rowley. There is no chain of custody issue except in the minds of out of touch conspiracy theorists. CE-399 would not even need a chain of custody to get admitted in court as evidence. It's a non-fungible item that had been made readily identifiable by both Elmer Todd and Robert Frazier. Either one of their positive IDs would suffice. In fact, Frazier positively identified it during his sworn WC testimony.
Total BS... Todd and Frazier received a bullet in Washington. There is not a shred of evidence that it was that same bullet Tomlinson found on a stretcher at Parkland and Frazier's testimony most certainly did not confirm that it was.
But even if your fairytale story was remotely true, then why did the WC ask the FBI for authentication of several pieces of evidence including CE399? You ran from this question last time. Let's see if you can answer it now!
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In fact, he told Bardwell Odum that it appeared to be the same bullet.
No he didn't. That's just what it said in CE2011. Odum denied that he ever had or showed CE399 to anybody. The FBI just made it up to satisfy the WC. Odum's name is not in the chain of custody for CE399.
Tomlinson and Wright both did say that it looked to be the same bullet though.
Again, no they didn't. Shanklin's airtel proves this is false and Tomlinson is on record twice saying that he was shown a bullet only once, by SAC Shanklin, about a week after the assassination. Tomlinson and Wright never told Odum anything of the kind.
If a chain of custody was needed, the one that existed would be perfectly fine. Johnsen placing the bullet in the envelope, sealing it, and attaching a letter to the envelope satisfies his link. Rowley did not open the envelope. He wrote a letter about his link. Elmer Todd confirmed that he received the envelope from Rowley. There is no chain of custody issue except in the minds of out of touch conspiracy theorists. CE-399 would not even need a chain of custody to get admitted in court as evidence. It's a non-fungible item that had been made readily identifiable by both Elmer Todd and Robert Frazier. Either one of their positive IDs would suffice. In fact, Frazier positively identified it during his sworn WC testimony.
Total BS... Todd and Frazier received a bullet in Washington. There is not a shred of evidence that it was that same bullet Tomlinson found on a stretcher at Parkland and Frazier's testimony most certainly did not confirm that it was.
But even if your fairytale story was remotely true, then why did the WC ask the FBI for authentication of several pieces of evidence including CE399? You ran from this question last time. Let's see if you can answer it now!
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But even if your fairytale story was remotely true, then why did the WC ask the FBI for authentication of several pieces of evidence including CE399?
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But even if your fairytale story was remotely true, then why did the WC ask the FBI for authentication of several pieces of evidence including CE399?
Right?
They must have thought that the authentication of evidence matters.
But then they were somehow satisfied with an anonymously written letter full of hearsay.
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O.P. Wright did not categorically deny that CE-399 was the bullet that he handled on Nov 22, 1963. In fact, he told Bardwell Odum that it appeared to be the same bullet.
Tomlinson, Wright, Johnsen and Rowley couldn't positively identify CE-399 as being the bullet they handled because none of them had placed their mark on it. Tomlinson and Wright both did say that it looked to be the same bullet though.
If a chain of custody was needed, the one that existed would be perfectly fine. Johnsen placing the bullet in the envelope, sealing it, and attaching a letter to the envelope satisfies his link. Rowley did not open the envelope. He wrote a letter about his link. Elmer Todd confirmed that he received the envelope from Rowley. There is no chain of custody issue except in the minds of out of touch conspiracy theorists. CE-399 would not even need a chain of custody to get admitted in court as evidence. It's a non-fungible item that had been made readily identifiable by both Elmer Todd and Robert Frazier. Either one of their positive IDs would suffice. In fact, Frazier positively identified it during his sworn WC testimony.
Gregory testified that it passed through the radius.
Wound ballistics says that the bullet turned around and exited the chest base end forward.
The word tumbling, whether in air or in tissue, gives the impression that the bullet rotates many times, end-over-end, as it penetrates, but the bullet actually seldom makes a complete 360° turn before exiting a target the size of a human body. Most bullets will never make the full circle, no matter how deeply they penetrate. If it stops in the target, the undeformed bullet almost always comes to rest pointed backward.
SPersonivan, Larry M.. JFK Myths: A Scientific Investigation of the Kennedy Assassination (p. 246). Paragon House. Kindle Edition.
Why?
I can make out what looks to be a hole in the radius. There are actually a couple of candidates for a hole on one of the X-Rays.
CE-842 is four fragments. CE-842 was submitted into evidence during Frazier's testimony. CE-842 is proof that Dr. Gregory removed four fragments from Connally.
That is False. You introduced it here three days before I even joined the thread.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,3681.msg144193.html#msg144193
O.P. Wright did not categorically deny that CE-399 was the bullet that he handled on Nov 22, 1963.
Wrong.
O P Wright categorically denied CE 399 was the bullet he handed to SA Johnsen on the day of the assassination more than once.
Ironically, you have posted a video of Josiah Thompson during which he describes Wright categorically denying CE 399 was the bullet he handled that day - once to Thompson and once in front of other witnesses.
CE-842 is four fragments. CE-842 was submitted into evidence during Frazier's testimony. CE-842 is proof that Dr. Gregory removed four fragments from Connally.
Wrong.
CE 842 is entered into evidence as a single fragment.
It is only referred to as a single fragment.
Gregory never refers to removing four fragments from JBC's wrist and CE 842 is entered into the evidence as a single fragment.
Mr. Specter: Was a fragment of metal brought to you which was identified as coming from the wrist of Governor Connally?
Mr. Frazier: It was identified to me as having come from the arm of Governor Connally.
Mr. Specter: Will you produce that fragment at this time, please?
Mr. Frazier: This one does not have a Commission number as yet.
Mr. Specter: May it please the Commission, I would like to have this fragment marked as Commission Exhibit 842.
(Commission Exhibit No. 842 was marked for identification and received in evidence.)
Mr. Specter: Now, referring to a fragment heretofore marked as Q9 for FBI record purposes, and now marked as Commission Exhibit No. 842, will you describe that fragment for us, please?
Mr. Frazier: Yes, sir; this is a small fragment of metal which weighed one-half a grain when I first examined it in the laboratory. It is a piece of lead, and could have been a part of a bullet or a core of a bullet.
Wound ballistics says that the bullet turned around and exited the chest base end forward.
The word tumbling, whether in air or in tissue, gives the impression that the bullet rotates many times, end-over-end, as it penetrates, but the bullet actually seldom makes a complete 360° turn before exiting a target the size of a human body. Most bullets will never make the full circle, no matter how deeply they penetrate. If it stops in the target, the undeformed bullet almost always comes to rest pointed backward.
I'm not sure if you're offering this passage from SPersonivan as proof the bullet exited JBC's chest base end forward.
Why?
Why do I find it confusing that a 6.5 mm rotating bullet leaves a 5 mm slit?
Why don't you find it confusing?
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O.P. Wright did not categorically deny that CE-399 was the bullet that he handled on Nov 22, 1963.
Wrong.
O P Wright categorically denied CE 399 was the bullet he handed to SA Johnsen on the day of the assassination more than once.
(https://i.imgur.com/5i3kS2U.png)
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11653#relPageId=3
Wrong.
CE 842 is entered into evidence as a single fragment.
It is only referred to as a single fragment.
Gregory never refers to removing four fragments from JBC's wrist and CE 842 is entered into the evidence as a single fragment.
CE-842 is four fragments. Gregory never said that he only removed one fragment.
Wound ballistics says that the bullet turned around and exited the chest base end forward.
The word tumbling, whether in air or in tissue, gives the impression that the bullet rotates many times, end-over-end, as it penetrates, but the bullet actually seldom makes a complete 360° turn before exiting a target the size of a human body. Most bullets will never make the full circle, no matter how deeply they penetrate. If it stops in the target, the undeformed bullet almost always comes to rest pointed backward.
I'm not sure if you're offering this passage from SPersonivan as proof the bullet exited JBC's chest base end forward.
the undeformed bullet almost always comes to rest pointed backward
What part of that don't you understand?
Why do I find it confusing that a 6.5 mm rotating bullet leaves a 5 mm slit?
Why don't you find it confusing?
I'm not a wound ballistics expert.
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(https://i.imgur.com/5i3kS2U.png)
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11653#relPageId=3
Hilarious. Odum never talked to Tomlinson and Wright and never showed them CE399.
Odum's name is also not included in the chain of evidence for CE399. If he ever had the bullet, his name should have been in the chain of custody. All the chain shows is that, in June 1964, CE399 was send to Dallas and then returned.
CE2011, which includes the part you've shown us, is nothing more than a fabrication by some unidentified FBI officer in Washington. The reason why it is clearly false is that the content does not match Dallas SAC Shanklin's airtel.
So, for CE2011 to be correct, Odum must have had CE399 without adding his name to the chain of custody. He must have shown the bullet to Tomlinson and Wright, not producing the usual FD 302 reports, completely forgetting all about the meeting later, and provide incorrect information to his superior, Shanklin.
A likely story....
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(https://i.imgur.com/5i3kS2U.png)
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11653#relPageId=3
Did you watch the Thompson video you posted where he reports Wright categorically denying CE 399 being the bullet he handled twice?
Are you aware Odum denied ever handling CE 399 and that he never showed it to anyone?
Are you aware that no FD-302 was ever raised by Odum, confirming his claim he never showed anyone CE 399?
Are you aware the report you posted is completely anonymous?
Are you aware of the suppressed airtel revealing Wright and Tomlinson didn't recognise CE 399 as the bullet they discovered that day?
CE-842 is four fragments. Gregory never said that he only removed one fragment.
Then how do you explain the Frazier testimony you neglected to include in your response.
Particularly where CE-842 is entered into evidence as a single fragment.
How do you explain that?
Mr. Specter: Was a fragment of metal brought to you which was identified as coming from the wrist of Governor Connally?
Mr. Frazier: It was identified to me as having come from the arm of Governor Connally.
Mr. Specter: Will you produce that fragment at this time, please?
Mr. Frazier: This one does not have a Commission number as yet.
Mr. Specter: May it please the Commission, I would like to have this fragment marked as Commission Exhibit 842.
(Commission Exhibit No. 842 was marked for identification and received in evidence.)
Mr. Specter: Now, referring to a fragment heretofore marked as Q9 for FBI record purposes, and now marked as Commission Exhibit No. 842, will you describe that fragment for us, please?
Mr. Frazier: Yes, sir; this is a small fragment of metal which weighed one-half a grain when I first examined it in the laboratory. It is a piece of lead, and could have been a part of a bullet or a core of a bullet.
the undeformed bullet almost always comes to rest pointed backward
What part of that don't you understand?
The part I don't understand is whether this passage specifically relates to Connally's injuries or is it just a generalisation about tumbling bullets.
I'm not a wound ballistics expert.
Or a rocket scientist.
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Did you watch the Thompson video you posted where he reports Wright categorically denying CE 399 being the bullet he handled twice?
Are you aware Odum denied ever handling CE 399 and that he never showed it to anyone?
Did you watch the Thompson video where he reports that Odum believed that he did handle CE 399 and that he showed it to Wright?
Are you aware that no FD-302 was ever raised by Odum, confirming his claim he never showed anyone CE 399?
Are you aware the report you posted is completely anonymous?
Are you aware of the suppressed airtel revealing Wright and Tomlinson didn't recognise CE 399 as the bullet they discovered that day?
Are you aware that no FD-3O2 containing the info in the Airtel has ever been found? Someone within the FBI had to have shown Wright and Tomlinson the bullet. Right? Where is that FD-302? What did Johnsen and Rowley have to say about CE 399? How do you know? The information in that Airtel does not conflict with the info on page 2 of WC Document 1258. In fact, the info in the AirTel obviously comes from the same source. If you maintain otherwise, then provide an FD-302 to back you up. Neither Wright not Tomlinson could positively identify CE 399 as the bullet that they handled. But they both said that it appeared to be the same one.
Then how do you explain the Frazier testimony you neglected to include in your response.
Particularly where CE-842 is entered into evidence as a single fragment.
How do you explain that?
I already addressed that by pointing out that Audrey Bell referred to the fragments in the singular as well.
(https://i.imgur.com/GwCpAGK.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/H9NI4Fd.jpg)
Audrey Bell recalled that there were four fragments.
The part I don't understand is whether this passage specifically relates to Connally's injuries or is it just a generalisation about tumbling bullets.
Apparently, you're no rocket scientist as well.
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Did you watch the Thompson video where he reports that Odum believed that he did handle CE 399 and that he showed it to Wright?
Thompson reports nothing of the sort. To say he does is baffling.
Just to clear an earlier point up first. I pointed out that Wright had categorically denied CE399 was the bullet he handled that day which you disagreed with. This is from the video you posted:
3:16 - "I started working in the direction I wanted to go. "You know that bullet you got from Tomlinson?", I asked, "The one you passed on to the Secret Service. What did it look like?" "Well, it was pointed", said Wright
5:03 - "...and then I showed him 399 - next slide please. There it is (picture of CE 399 is shown). "No, that's just like the others", Wright said, "I told you it was pointed."
5:54 - "So we left his office and we rejoined the others and a bit later we were all standing round together and Wright said, pointing to the photo of 399 - aloud, once again - that it didn't resemble the bullet that he'd gotten from Tomlinson."
Wright categorically denies CE 399 is the bullet he handled that day - twice!
He even gives Thompson a bullet similar to the one he did handle that day and Thompson later took a photo of it:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Kj1HKkJx/Stretcher-Bullet1.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Wright handled a hunting slug with a pointed tip that day. He did not hand CE 399 to SA Johnsen.
As for Odum's recollection of showing CE 399 to Tomlinson and Wright:
17:30 - Odum interview by Aguilar over the phone.
"One of the documents says Bardwell Odum, to wit you, took this bullet around and showed it to a couple of people at Parkland Hospital."
Odum's reply was direct and electrifying, "I didn't show it to anyone at Parkland Hospital, I didn't have any bullet, I don't know where you got that but it's wrong. You're talking about the bullet they found at Parkland? I don't think I ever saw it even."
19:06 - Aguilar and Thompson meet Odum
"He continued to be adamant that he'd never seen it, he'd never had C1, or 399, in his hands, it had never been in his custody, and he had no recollection of visiting Parkland Hospital to interview O. P. Wright - who he knew because O. P. Wright was deputy chief - or Darrell Tomlinson."
Days later Odum contacts Thompson to tell him he does have a vague memory of visiting Wright but he can't recall what they spoke about and he still had no recollection of having CE 399 with him. He had zero recollection of meeting with Tomlinson.
At no point in the video does Thompson report that Odum recalled having CE399 or that he showed it to Wright. You have simply made that up.
Are you aware that no FD-3O2 containing the info in the Airtel has ever been found? Someone within the FBI had to have shown Wright and Tomlinson the bullet. Right? Where is that FD-302? What did Johnsen and Rowley have to say about CE 399? How do you know? The information in that Airtel does not conflict with the info on page 2 of WC Document 1258. In fact, the info in the AirTel obviously comes from the same source. If you maintain otherwise, then provide an FD-302 to back you up. Neither Wright not Tomlinson could positively identify CE 399 as the bullet that they handled. But they both said that it appeared to be the same one.
Nowhere in the AirTel does it say they thought CE 399 appeared to be the same bullet they handled that day. Both men refused to identify it as the bullet they handled, end of story.
You're argument that no 302 for the AirTel was found somehow explains why no 302 or interview notes were ever found for Odum's supposed interviews with Wright and Tomlinson is bizarre.
I already addressed that by pointing out that Audrey Bell referred to the fragments in the singular as well.
Because Bell wrote "fragment" on a hospital memo, this explains why CE-842 was introduced as a single fragment??!!
Let's have a closer look at Frazier's testimony:
Mr. Specter: Was a fragment of metal brought to you which was identified as coming from the wrist of Governor Connally?
"a fragment" - a single fragment. One fragment
Mr. Frazier: It was identified to me as having come from the arm of Governor Connally.
Mr. Specter: Will you produce that fragment at this time, please?
"that fragment" - a single fragment. One fragment
Mr. Frazier: This one does not have a Commission number as yet.
Mr. Specter: May it please the Commission, I would like to have this fragment marked as Commission Exhibit 842.
(Commission Exhibit No. 842 was marked for identification and received in evidence.)
"this fragment" - a single fragment. One fragment
Mr. Specter: Now, referring to a fragment heretofore marked as Q9 for FBI record purposes, and now marked as Commission Exhibit No. 842, will you describe that fragment for us, please?
"a fragment" - a single fragment. One fragment.
Mr. Frazier: Yes, sir; this is a small fragment of metal which weighed one-half a grain when I first examined it in the laboratory. It is a piece of lead, and could have been a part of a bullet or a core of a bullet.
"a small fragment" - a single fragment. One fragment.
Frazier actually describes this single fragment. There is no mention, whatsoever, of the other three fragments that end up as part of CE 842. To suggest otherwise is untenable.
This is also supported by Frazier's original designation of Q9 as being a single fragment.
Yet, in the National Archives, CE 842 is four fragments.
You may think this is understandable but I do not
Audrey Bell recalled that there were four fragments.
That is correct.
And Gregory's operative notes also suggest more than two fragments were removed from JBC's wrist.
And Gregory's WC testimony suggests at least two fragments were removed, if not more.
Apparently, you're no rocket scientist as well.
Apparently not.
During the WC hearings it is stated by various doctors that the exit wound is usually the larger wound.
In the case of JBC's wrist this is not the case. Not only is the exit wound the smaller wound, the wound is actually smaller than the missile that was supposed to have produced it. All the more amazing as, according to some, the bullet was rotating as it passed through the wrist.
Gregory seemed surprised by this:
Mr. Specter: And is that characteristic in terms of entry and exit wounds?
Dr. GREGORY. It is not at all characteristic of the entry wound of a pristine missile which tends to make a small wound of entrance and larger wound of exit.
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Thompson reports nothing of the sort. To say he does is baffling.
It does so. If you had bothered to watch the video from where I timestamped it you would know that. Here it is again:
Nowhere in the AirTel does it say they thought CE 399 appeared to be the same bullet they handled that day. Both men refused to identify it as the bullet they handled, end of story.
You're argument that no 302 for the AirTel was found somehow explains why no 302 or interview notes were ever found for Odum's supposed interviews with Wright and Tomlinson is bizarre.
I'm not the one who stated that an FD-302 was required for confirmation of information reported to be obtained by FBI interviews. So again, where is the FD-302 of the Agent(s) that showed the bullet to Wright and Tomlinson? If not Odum, then who?
The info contained in the Airtel does not conflict with the info in the WC document 1258. Stop being so damn thick-headed.
Because Bell wrote "fragment" on a hospital memo, this explains why CE-842 was introduced as a single fragment??!!
Doesn't it? Explain why Bell wrote "fragment" on the transfer receipt.
Let's have a closer look at Frazier's testimony:
No, let's not. Let's see your explanation for why Bell wrote "fragment" on the receipt first.
That is correct.
And Gregory's operative notes also suggest more than two fragments were removed from JBC's wrist.
And Gregory's WC testimony suggests at least two fragments were removed, if not more.
Right. CE-842 is more than one fragment and always was.
Apparently not.
During the WC hearings it is stated by various doctors that the exit wound is usually the larger wound.
In the case of JBC's wrist this is not the case. Not only is the exit wound the smaller wound, the wound is actually smaller than the missile that was supposed to have produced it. All the more amazing as, according to some, the bullet was rotating as it passed through the wrist.
Gregory seemed surprised by this:
Mr. Specter: And is that characteristic in terms of entry and exit wounds?
Dr. GREGORY. It is not at all characteristic of the entry wound of a pristine missile which tends to make a small wound of entrance and larger wound of exit.
Gregory actually gives two different dimensional descriptions of the exit wound.
Dr. GREGORY - The wound of exit was disposed transversely across the wrist exactly as I have it marked here. It was in the nature of a small laceration, perhaps a centimeter and a half in length, about a half an inch long,
It may be that the later "half centimeter in length" description was meant to be it's lesser diameter.
Gregory is telling you that the wounds were not made by a nose-forward bullet.
Dr. GREGORY - The wound of entrance is characteristic in my view of an irregular missile in this case, an irregular missile which has tipped itself off as being irregular by the nature of itself.
Mr. DULLES - What do you mean by irregular?
Dr. GREGORY - I mean one that has been distorted. It is in some way angular, it has edges or sharp edges or something of this sort. It is not rounded or pointed in the fashion of an ordinary missile. The irregularity of it also, I submit, tends to pick up organic material and carry it into the limb, and this is a very significant takeoff, in my opinion.
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It does so. If you had bothered to watch the video from where I timestamped it you would know that. Here it is again:
"It does so" :D :D :D
Oh no it doesn't!
I have clearly bothered to watch the video because, unlike you, not only did I provide the timestamp, I have gone to the trouble of providing a transcript of what was said.
Where have you timestamped it, by the way?
I note you have simply glided by the part of my post where you are proven wrong about Wright categorically denying CE 399 was the bullet he handled that day - twice!
I assume by your silence on that matter you accept now you were wrong but just can't bring yourself to admit that. But don't worry, I've got you covered.
As we shall see, once we accept Wright at his word, that the bullet he handed to SA Johnsen was not CE 399, a lot of troubling details about this particular aspect of the case, suddenly make sense.
But let's deal with the rest of your post first.
So, you are still insisting Thompson reported that Odum stated he had handled CE 399 and shown it to Wright. Even though I posted the following from transcript:
17:30 - Odum interview by Aguilar over the phone.
"One of the documents says Bardwell Odum, to wit you, took this bullet around and showed it to a couple of people at Parkland Hospital."
Odum's reply was direct and electrifying, "I didn't show it to anyone at Parkland Hospital, I didn't have any bullet, I don't know where you got that but it's wrong. You're talking about the bullet they found at Parkland? I don't think I ever saw it even."
19:06 - Aguilar and Thompson meet Odum
"He continued to be adamant that he'd never seen it, he'd never had C1, or 399, in his hands, it had never been in his custody, and he had no recollection of visiting Parkland Hospital to interview O. P. Wright - who he knew because O. P. Wright was deputy chief - or Darrell Tomlinson."
Rather than look for a timestamp you haven't provided, are you referring to this section of the video:
19:56 - "Two days later, he called me back and he said that, after thinking about it, he now had a vague recollection of sitting in Wright's basement office at Parkland, talking to Wright about some unknown, inconsequential matter. He still had no recollection of having the bullet in his possession or of showing it to anyone.
"But the more I thought about it", said Odum, "I did remember being in his office. The visit I had with Wright, I didn't consider it important, we didn't talk about it for more than a couple of minutes and I really can't remember what we talked about. But, from what you're saying, I might have had the bullet. That must have been what it was. I'm trying to pull it all together."
21:10 - "In the same phone call he remarked, "The Warren Commission would send down requests to do this or do that and we didn't question it, we did whatever they wanted. I can remember being in Wright's office for an unknown reason sometime well after the assassination and we talked a little about the assassination, I visited with him, I don't remember that I had the bullet with me but, assuming what you have is correct, it was undoubtedly sealed in a plastic envelope and I didn't open it. He didn't open it, nobody opened it, we were looking at it through a plastic envelope and that's my guess, and I just reported they couldn't identify it."
Odum's first statements are that he had never handled CE 399, that he had never even seen it, let alone shown it to Tomlinson and Wright.
Days later his story begins to change, but at no time does Odum say he can remember having CE 399 or that he showed it to Wright.
I can't imagine you are referring to any other part of the video but, if you are, please provide the timestamp in the form of minutes and seconds.
Otherwise we can assume you are also wrong about this but will try to just glide by it.
I'm not the one who stated that an FD-302 was required for confirmation of information reported to be obtained by FBI interviews. So again, where is the FD-302 of the Agent(s) that showed the bullet to Wright and Tomlinson? If not Odum, then who?
I didn't state it was required for confirmation of information either. Nice Strawman though.
The point I'm making is that Odum denied he ever had CE 399 in his possession or that he had shown it to Wright and Tomlinson. Odum himself made the point that, if he had done so, there would be some kind of paper trail for it. Remember, this is an important issue, the WC had asked the FBI to provide chain of custody information for the key pieces of evidence in the case. If there had been the relevant paperwork, Odum's recollection would have been in error, but because the paperwork doesn't exist, it supports Odum's recollection of never having CE 399 in his possession. If the interviews had taken place it would have been very surprising that there was no paperwork for such an important issue.
The info contained in the Airtel does not conflict with the info in the WC document 1258. Stop being so damn thick-headed.
The information contained in Dr Seuss' "The Cat in the Hat" also doesn't conflict with the info in doc. 1258.
So, what?
The AirTel makes no mention that the men thought CE 399 looked similar to the bullet they handled that day. They just refused to identify it as the bullet they discovered that day.
The important thing is that there is no mention of any similarity, so the conflict arises in what is not said as opposed to what is said.
Why would the AirTel fail to mention that Tomlinson and Wright had said there was a similarity between CE 399 and the bullet they handled that day? What ridiculous explanation can you invent to cover this uncomfortable fact.
Common Sense dictates that the reason it wasn't mentioned in the AirTel was because neither man mentioned a similarity. Because there was no similarity. Because they were two completely different bullets.
Doesn't it? Explain why Bell wrote "fragment" on the transfer receipt.
You asked this question already.
You know you have.
You also know I said "I don't know" why Bell wrote "fragments" on the envelope and "fragment" on the hospital memo.
Why would you ask a question I've already answered?
No, let's not. Let's see your explanation for why Bell wrote "fragment" on the receipt first.
:D :D :D
You think you're going to slip out of this that easily!!
As you already know, I've answered this point - I don't have a clue why Bell wrote different things.
Now, back to my question:
Mr. Specter: Was a fragment of metal brought to you which was identified as coming from the wrist of Governor Connally?
"a fragment" - a single fragment. One fragment
Mr. Frazier: It was identified to me as having come from the arm of Governor Connally.
Mr. Specter: Will you produce that fragment at this time, please?
"that fragment" - a single fragment. One fragment
Mr. Frazier: This one does not have a Commission number as yet.
Mr. Specter: May it please the Commission, I would like to have this fragment marked as Commission Exhibit 842.
(Commission Exhibit No. 842 was marked for identification and received in evidence.)
"this fragment" - a single fragment. One fragment
Mr. Specter: Now, referring to a fragment heretofore marked as Q9 for FBI record purposes, and now marked as Commission Exhibit No. 842, will you describe that fragment for us, please?
"a fragment" - a single fragment. One fragment.
Mr. Frazier: Yes, sir; this is a small fragment of metal which weighed one-half a grain when I first examined it in the laboratory. It is a piece of lead, and could have been a part of a bullet or a core of a bullet.
"a small fragment" - a single fragment. One fragment.
WHY IS CE 842 ENTERED INTO EVIDENCE AS A SINGLE FRAGMENT?
Right. CE-842 is more than one fragment and always was.
Apart from in the initial FBI report
And on the hospital memo
And when it was labeled by Frazier
And when it was entered into evidence
Gregory actually gives two different dimensional descriptions of the exit wound.
Dr. GREGORY - The wound of exit was disposed transversely across the wrist exactly as I have it marked here. It was in the nature of a small laceration, perhaps a centimeter and a half in length, about a half an inch long,
It may be that the later "half centimeter in length" description was meant to be it's lesser diameter.
This would make a lot more sense, even though various doctors, including Gregory, are surprised the exit wound is the smaller of the two wounds
Gregory is telling you that the wounds were not made by a nose-forward bullet.
Dr. GREGORY - The wound of entrance is characteristic in my view of an irregular missile in this case, an irregular missile which has tipped itself off as being irregular by the nature of itself.
Mr. DULLES - What do you mean by irregular?
Dr. GREGORY - I mean one that has been distorted. It is in some way angular, it has edges or sharp edges or something of this sort. It is not rounded or pointed in the fashion of an ordinary missile. The irregularity of it also, I submit, tends to pick up organic material and carry it into the limb, and this is a very significant takeoff, in my opinion.
Gregory is telling me a fragment of a bullet passed through Connally's wrist
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It does so. If you had bothered to watch the video from where I timestamped it you would know that. Here it is again:
I'm not the one who stated that an FD-302 was required for confirmation of information reported to be obtained by FBI interviews. So again, where is the FD-302 of the Agent(s) that showed the bullet to Wright and Tomlinson? If not Odum, then who?
The info contained in the Airtel does not conflict with the info in the WC document 1258. Stop being so damn thick-headed.
Doesn't it? Explain why Bell wrote "fragment" on the transfer receipt.
No, let's not. Let's see your explanation for why Bell wrote "fragment" on the receipt first.
Right. CE-842 is more than one fragment and always was.
Gregory actually gives two different dimensional descriptions of the exit wound.
Dr. GREGORY - The wound of exit was disposed transversely across the wrist exactly as I have it marked here. It was in the nature of a small laceration, perhaps a centimeter and a half in length, about a half an inch long,
It may be that the later "half centimeter in length" description was meant to be it's lesser diameter.
Gregory is telling you that the wounds were not made by a nose-forward bullet.
Dr. GREGORY - The wound of entrance is characteristic in my view of an irregular missile in this case, an irregular missile which has tipped itself off as being irregular by the nature of itself.
Mr. DULLES - What do you mean by irregular?
Dr. GREGORY - I mean one that has been distorted. It is in some way angular, it has edges or sharp edges or something of this sort. It is not rounded or pointed in the fashion of an ordinary missile. The irregularity of it also, I submit, tends to pick up organic material and carry it into the limb, and this is a very significant takeoff, in my opinion.
So again, where is the FD-302 of the Agent(s) that showed the bullet to Wright and Tomlinson? If not Odum, then who?
What makes you think that any other agent showed CE399 to Wright and Tomlinson?
A far more likely scenario is that Shanklin just simply wrote in his airtel (which btw doesn't mention Odum at all) that Tomlinson and Wright could not identify CE399. I believe he wrote that simply because he (Shanklin) knew that the bullet now in evidence as CE399 was not the same bullet as the one he, himself, had shown to Tomlinson about a week after the assassination. Tomlinson is on record twice saying that this happened. It would be pointless for Shanklin to send anybody to Tomlinson and Wright to show CE399, knowing that it was a substitute and risk that either man would deny that it was the same bullet! I was much easier for Shanklin to just write in the airtel (which was secret internal communication) that both men could not identify the bullet. It's a kinda sneaky way to deal with the matter, because Shanklin knew that to actually be true. I believe that this is also the reason why the airtel doesn't identify the person who showed the bullet to Tomlinson and Wright.
The info contained in the Airtel does not conflict with the info in the WC document 1258. Stop being so damn thick-headed.
Of course it conflicts! Stop being so damn thick-headed and utterly dishonest!
Where in the airtel is Odum's name mentioned? And where does it say in the airtel that, according to Tomlinson and/or Wright, C1 "looks like the slug found at Parkland Hospital"?
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This is discussed at length in martin's thread, "A Time to Receive and Give (CE399)
CE399 was not the bullet that impacted JBC's wrist. So the imperative, to have a whole bullet pass through the wrist, disappears, and certain things begin to make a bit more sense (to me, at least)
The pre-op X-ray of JBC's wrist shows there is no "channel" through the bone, the bullet impacted the side of the radius and, in order for it to exit through the crease in the wrist, would have to pass directly through one of the densest bones in the body. There is no hint of this happening in the X-ray.
If the bullet fragmented on contact with the wrist, I could see how a smaller part of it might get through to exit through the crease in the wrist. The remainder of the bullet would, most probably, end up on the limo floor.
Multiple fragments are discovered throughout the wound. I can easily see how this might happen in the case of fragmentation but I have great difficulty understanding how this could be the case if CE399 were the bullet involved.
The problem with CE399 is that the only place lead fragments could come from is the base of the bullet. They can't come from anywhere else on the bullet. It was quickly realised that, in order to be able to explain how CE399 could leave metal fragments in the wound, it must have entered the wound base first. This was not based on evidence relating to the wound itself - the size, shape or disposition of the wound - it was simply an invention of necessity. In turn this led to the idea of a "tumbling bullet", which is something I have great difficulty envisaging.
Was the bullet tumbling through JBC's chest? I don't know.
The impression I get is that, "officially", the bullet entered and exited JBC's torso nose-first and when it exited his chest it began rotating at an unbelievably high speed, so that it hit the wrist base-first. The problem with this is that the bullet would still have been rotating at an incredibly high speed as it traveled through the wrist.
The X-ray of JBC's wrist doesn't show a hole where a bullet might have traveled directly through without rotating, let alone a rotating bullet, which would surely have blown his hand off!
Which brings us to the exit wound, a one centimeter long slit!!
This rotating bullet, smashing through the radius, scattering metallic fragments as it goes, leaves a one centimeter long slit as it exits.
I simply don't buy that.
"...the hole may not be apparent in that X-Ray, it is there."
Hmmm...
This is a bit like you're contention that, although there are multiple fragments that don't show up on JBC's pre-op X-ray, they are still there.
You can't see it , but it's there! What sort of argument is that?
It just leads to a 'pantomime' argument - "Oh yes it is", "Oh no it isn't".
Do you imagine the bullet was rotating as it passed through the wrist, or that it passed through base-first all the way?
Assuming it's Bell's writing on both items - on one she describes a fragment (singular), on the other she describes fragments (plural).
Why?
I literally don't have a clue.
You can deny what is seen in my "heavily pixelated picture" all you want
Thanks, I will. Thumb1:
but you cannot honestly deny that CE-842 is made up of four fragments.
Where have I denied that the picture in the National Archives depicts four fragments?
Gregory testifies to removing two fragments.
The X-rays prove he removed two fragments.
Frazier only recorded a single fragment from JBC's arm. Even though the envelope he received them in stated "fragments" plural.
The original FBI report states that a single fragment was removed.
The hospital memo states one fragment was handed over to Nolan (who thought the fragment came from JBC's thigh!)
Do you think you can unravel all this with a dodgy, heavily pixelated pic?
You are getting very close.
CE399 did enter " base first".
How? And why, would a bullet enter " base first"?
Not the normal trajectory of a bullet.
What caused that?
And whom did it enter?
The answer is easy.
Happy hunting!
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You are getting very close.
CE399 did enter " base first".
How? And why, would a bullet enter " base first"?
Not the normal trajectory of a bullet.
What caused that?
And whom did it enter?
The answer is easy.
Happy hunting!
:D :D :D
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Has Gary Murr come up with the solution to this mystery? He says the fragments were originally one piece but had to be broken up by the FBI for their lab tests. See 11 minutes in the this video:
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Has Gary Murr come up with the solution to this mystery? He says the fragments were originally one piece but had to be broken up by the FBI for their lab tests. See 11 minutes in the this video:
Really interesting interview, Gerry.
I think Murr's theory covers a lot of the issues raised surrounding Q9 but not all of them and he leaves some seriously unanswered points.
The basic outline is as follows:
Gregory removed multiple fragments from JBC's wrist but the FBI only received a single fragment.
Bill Stinson (JBC's senior aide) or some other faction of the Connally party, removed some fragments
Frazier receives a single fragment, but this fragment is cut up for NAA analysis, which is why it now appears as four fragments.
The main sticking point is the notion that "Connally's party" removed fragments before it was sent on to the FBI.
In the video below ex-State Trooper Bob Nolan recounts the day's events.
He was stood in the hallway near the emergency rooms with Bill Stinson (who he sometimes refers to as Stinton).
A nurse approaches Stinson, who is dressed in a doctor's white overcoat, saying to him she has a bullet that came off JBC's gurney.
Stinson says to give it to Nolan (who is in his State Trooper's uniform).
Nolan sticks it in his pocket and there it stays until he puts it on Fritz's desk.
As far as Murr's theory goes, it's interesting that Stinson is the first to be offered the bullet but it's also interesting that the envelope goes straight in Nolan's pocket, without anything being removed.
It would also be good to have confirmation that Q9 was cut up for NAA analysis.
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In this thread I have highlighted a mystery surrounding the origins of Q9, that the documentation appears to consist of two different narratives - one about a single fragment and one about multiple fragments. The more information I came across regarding this aspect of the case the more confusing it appeared to become.
I have recently come across this article by Robert Harris which has resolved this mystery to a very large extent:
https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/the-connally-bullet
It reveals that three separate events relating to bullet/bullet fragments took place in Parkland on the day of the assassination:
1) 12:30pm to 1:00pm
A bullet, or large fragment of a bullet, falls from Connally's stretcher as he is moved onto the operating table.
This is the relevant passage from Harris' article:
But there is an even better reason why we can be quite certain that CE399 was not the bullet that wounded Governor Connally. The real bullet was found on the second floor and recovered by a nurse, who then passed it on to officer Bobby Nolan, who then delivered it to the Dallas Police department. The confirmation of this begins with Governor Connally. This is from his autobiography entitled, "In History's shadow".
"..the most curious discovery of all took place when they rolled me off the stretcher, and onto the examining table. A metal object fell to the floor, with a click no louder than a wedding band. The nurse picked it up and slipped it into her pocket. It was the bullet from my body, the one that passed though my back, chest and wrist and worked itself loose from my thigh.
There was enormous significance to that scrap of metal, but I can't be certain how many years later I understood the importance of it. I have always believed that three bullets found their mark. What happened in the hospital demonstrated how easily a bullet could have been swept aside and lost..
What the governor obviously didn't realize however, is that the bullet was not "swept aside". Certainly, the nurse who recovered it would not have just discarded the most important piece of forensic evidence she had ever handled. As it turned out, the Dallas District attorney arrived at the hospital, eager to find out how his old friend, Governor Connally was doing. It seems that he arrived at about the same time that the surgery on the governor was completed, when he ran into that same nurse who found the bullet. This is from an interview of Dallas District attorney, Henry Wade, by the Dallas Morning News.
I also went out to see (Gov. John) Connally, but he was in the operating room. Some nurse had a bullet in her hand, and said this was on the gurney that Connally was on. I talked with Nellie Connally a while and then went on home.
Q: What did you do with the bullet? Is this the famous pristine bullet people have talked about?
A: I told her to give it to the police, which she said she would. I assume that's the pristine bullet.
The nurse promptly carried out the district attorney's instructions, passing the bullet to the nearest uniformed officer in sight, who happened to be Dallas Hwy Patrolman, Bobby Nolan, who was standing in the hallway talking to Connally aide, Bill Stinson. This is from my interview of Nolan in 2010.
I was talking to a man who was one of governor Connally's aides. His name was - I think it was either Stinton or Stimmons (Bill Stinson). And he was an aide to the Governor. And she came up and told him that she had the bullet that came off of the gurney. Now I don't know what gurney. I think they meant Governor Connally's gurney. And she said, "What do you want me to do with it?" He and I were just sitting there in the hallway talking to me and said, "Give it to him"
Q. Was it a bullet fragment or a complete bullet?
Nolan: I don't know. It was a - they told me that it was a bullet. And I don't know if it was a fragment of a bullet or a whole bullet because it was in a little, small brown envelope. And it was sealed and it was about, I'd say 2 by 3 inches. And it was in that envelope when I got it and I never did look at it or anything."
Q. Now when the nurse gave it to you, did she describe it as a bullet fragment or as a bullet.
Nolan: Uh no. She just said it was a bullet. That's all.
Nolan delivered the bullet to the Dallas Police department that evening, and the next morning, was interviewed by the FBI, who reported (emphasis is mine), Bobby M. Nolan, Texas highway patrolman, Tyler district, was interviewed relative to a bullet fragment removed from the left thigh of Governor Connally, which was turned over to him at Parkland Hospital in Dallas for delivery to the FBI.
Nolan leaves the bullet fragment on Fritz's desk which is taken by Vince Drain to the FBI lab in Washington. Frazier assigns the Q-number for this single fragment, Q9, but records it as having come from Connally's arm and not his thigh.
2) 1:00pm - 1:30pm
Darrell Tomlinson discovers a bullet on a stretcher, he alerts O P Wright about it who then passes it on to SA Johnsen. Wright describes it as a "hunting slug" with a pointed tip. When testifying, Tomlinson is adamant he found the bullet on a stretcher that could not have been used by Connally. As Harris notes:
"The only logical conclusion which can be drawn from this evidence is that the bullet Tomlinson found on the stretcher in front of the rest room door had nothing to do with the assassination. Parkland was (and is) the largest hospital in Dallas and processes hundreds of gunshot victims every year. Doctor McClelland testified that Parkland,
"receives all of the indigent patients of this county, many of whom are involved frequently in shooting altercations, so that we do see a large number of that type patient almost daily".
But it appears that the FBI didn't think about that when they received the stretcher bullet at their labs on Friday night."
This bullet had nothing to do with the assassination. The evidence and arguments outlining this can be found in the "A time to receive and give (CE399)" thread. The upshot is that the hunting slug with the pointed tip was substituted at the FBI lab for what we now know as CE399.
3) 16:00pm to 17:00pm
Dr Gregory operates on Connally's wrist. He removes four small fragments of metal from the wrist during the operation. These fragments are processed by the Supervising Nurse, Audrey Bell. The fragments are placed in a transparent plastic container which is then placed in an envelope and marked "Bullet Fragments". This envelope is handed to two plain-clothed federal agents, most probably the two FBI agents who stopped Nolan in the basement car-park of the DPD and tried to obtain the large bullet fragment he had been given by the nurse in Parkland while he talked to Bill Stinson.
At some point during the day Trooper Nolan has the bullet (or large fragment of a bullet} from Connally's thigh in his pocket.
SA Johnsen has the hunting slug with the pointed tip in his pocket.
An unknown FBI agent has the four fragments from Connally's wrist in his pocket.
The key point to understanding what happened in the FBI lab in Washington is that the bullet (fragment) that came from Connally's thigh and fell off his stretcher as he was being moved, cannot have come from the Mannlicher Carcano.
If it had it would have been trumpeted as most important piece of evidence connecting Oswald to the assassination. As it was, it disappeared and was replaced with the four small fragments taken from Connally's wrist by Gregory.
The hunting slug was replaced by CE399.
Documentation is created to give the impression of some kind of misunderstanding regarding the bullet from Connally's thigh.
Tomlinson reports that he was warned by the FBI to keep his mouth shut about the bullet he found.
Wright mysteriously forgets to mention the bullet he gave to SA Johnsen in a report for Jack Price, the hospital administrator.
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The documented evidence and witness testimony regarding Q9 reveal two narratives - one about a single fragment from Governor Connally's thigh, the other about multiple fragments removed from his wrist.
The problem for the FBI was this - how to transform the bullet that fell from Connally's gurney while he was being lifted onto the operating table, into the four small bullet fragments removed from his wrist by Dr. Gregory.
The first step was an FBI report by SA J. Doyle Williams dated 30th November.
"Doctor Charles Francis Gregory, Parkland Hospital, stated
he and Doctor Tom Shires and other staff physicians performed
surgery on Governor John Connally on November 22, 1963.
He states surgery was performed by him on the Governor's
right arm, and that he removed from the arm a small fragment
of metal. He stated the metal fragment was placed into a
transparent container for preservation, and that during the
operation, he recalled no other pieces or bits of metal being
removed from the Governor's body.
...
Doctor Gregory stated Surgery Supervisor Audrey Bell
took custody of the fragment of metal removed from the
Governor's arm, and that the ultimate disposition of the metal
which was considered to be of possible evidentiary value, could
best be explained by Miss Bell . He stated he did not on his
own knowledge know, however, but he had been advised [that]
Miss Bell obtained a receipt from State Trooper Bob Nolan
[a State of Texas highway patrol officer] and transferred the
metal fragment to him in accordance with instructions from
the Governor's office at Parkland Hospital."
The report is supposed to be an interview with Doctor Gregory specifically about the operation he performed on Connally's wrist. Note, these are not Gregory's words, he did not sign off on this, these are his words as reported (invented) by SA Williams.
Why this interview was necessary is never made clear, the FBI didn't feel the need to interview other doctors about the specifics of their surgical procedures.
The first glaring error is the constant use of the word "fragment" - singular. It is mentioned four times. Apparently, Gregory "stated" that only one fragment was removed from Connally's wrist and that "he recalled no other pieces or bits of metal being removed from the Governor's body."
This cannot be true, for a number of reasons.
Firstly, Gregory's operative notes, made on the day of the assassination, make it clear that multiple fragments were removed from Connally's wrist:
"...Small bits of metal were encountered at various levels throughout the wound and wherever they were identified and could be picked up were picked up and have been submitted to the pathology department for identification and examination."
This is is clear reference to multiple fragments. The phrasing, that these fragments were encountered at "various" levels "throughout" the wound, indicates there were more than two fragments recovered. Audrey Bell, in her HSCA and ARRB interviews believes four fragments were removed from the wrist. Q9, as it exists in the evidence today, consists of four fragments.
Gregory removed four fragments from Connally's wrist. Why, then, would he tell SA Williams that he only removed a single fragment, why would he insist that no other fragments were removed?
The answer is simple - he never told Williams anything of the sort. It is a fabrication designed to steer the narrative.
These are the two narratives:
1) Connally reports a bullet falling from his gurney as he is being lifted onto the operating table. He hears it hit the floor and observes a nurse picking it up and putting it in her pocket.
Wade, visiting his old friend in Parkland, reports a nurse approaching him with a bullet which had fallen from Connally's gurney and asking him what to do with it. He tells her to give it to a police officer which she agrees to do.
Bob Nolan reports a nurse coming up to him and Bill Stinson with a bullet from Connally's thigh which had fallen from his gurney. It is in a small envelope. The envelope is 2 by 3 inches and is blank. Nolan delivers the envelope to Fritz's desk.
2) Gregory removes four tiny fragments from Connally's wrist, these fragments are placed in a small "shot glass" and placed on the scrub nurses desk. Bell transfers the fragments to a small, transparent plastic container for preservation as they are transported to the pathology department.
As she is in her office processing the fragments, an FBI agent enters and takes custody of the fragments which are in a box inside an envelope. This is the box and envelope which eventually become part of Warren Commission Exhibit 842.
How do we "mash" these two narratives together?
The key is that in each narrative there is a nurse who, at some point, has possession of the bullet/fragments.
The simplest thing to do is to make these two different nurses the same person.
So the nurse who approaches Bob Nolan is now Audrey Bell.
This is how the deception in the FBI report works.
"[Doctor Gregory] stated he did not on his
own knowledge know, however, but he had been advised [that]
Miss Bell obtained a receipt from State Trooper Bob Nolan
[a State of Texas highway patrol officer] and transferred the
metal fragment to him in accordance with instructions from
the Governor's office at Parkland Hospital."
Note how vague the source of this information is.
We have already seen that SA Williams has invented words supposedly spoken by Dr Gregory, but in this part of the report the information isn't even from Gregory.
It says Gregory "had been advised" that Bell had given the "fragment" to Nolan as "he did not on his own knowledge know..."
It could not be any more vague but the idea has been planted - whatever Dr. Gregory removed from Connally's wrist was given to State Trooper Nolan by Audrey Bell.
That is the lie this report is trying to sell.
Any confusion over whether it was a single fragment or multiple fragments can be glossed over. All that matters is that it was Bell who gave the envelope to Nolan.
Something we know for a fact didn't happen.