JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: Brian Roselle on June 03, 2023, 01:59:15 PM
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I well understand modeling can be a challenge, and I do have a couple of gripes about the rear shot recreation done in Inside the Target Car, but I think they may have done the highest tech recreation I have seen to date.
My question is based on the attached jpg, after the test shot.
There is a glob of tissue exuded/hanging forward outside the skull after the rear shot happened.
Is there any film evidence of this particular effect, or was there any testimony that indicated something like this happened (perhaps before being pushed back inside the skull)?
Thanks
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1qr6QSg3hutdw1-3cBSm67M7eBVJST-uB)
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I well understand modeling can be a challenge, and I do have a couple of gripes about the rear shot recreation done in Inside the Target Car, but I think they may have done the highest tech recreation I have seen to date.
My question is based on the attached jpg, after the test shot.
There is a glob of tissue exuded/hanging forward outside the skull after the rear shot happened.
Is there any film evidence of this particular effect, or was there any testimony that indicated something like this happened (perhaps before being pushed back inside the skull)?
Thanks
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1qr6QSg3hutdw1-3cBSm67M7eBVJST-uB)
I don't know the answer to your question.
However, I will comment that, as I understand it, this is the best model of a human head, showing the damage to a head done by a bullet. But it is still an unsatisfactory model.
Why? Because the bullet that emerged from this test came out with very little damage. If truth, the bullet should have been fragmented, from striking the skull at something like 90 per cent of the muzzle velocity.
I suspect the problem is that the material used to simulate bone, does not have twice the density of water. Unlike bone which does. According to Larry SPersonivan in his book 'The JFK Myths', the damage to a bullet caused by the material it strikes is related to the velocity of the bullet while it is passing through this material, and the density of the material.
I think this model is designed to show the effects on a human body by the bullet. But not designed to show the effects on the bullet by the human body.
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Joe, in thinking about this I think you are right that the Australian firms skull in this test was designed to show the effects on the human body (here the skull) and not the bullet. I recall them saying they were interested in mainly filming the skull damage. And because of the interest in slow motion filming the skull damage that occurred, they said that the torso/neck was being bolted down to the max in order to limit its motion (presumably no body motion blurs on film, in order to see just how the skull was reacting during strike).
You may also be right that the rear of the surrogate skull was not dense enough, or thick enough, or both, in order to rupture the carcanos copper jacket on initial impact, or during its slowed down subsequent impact during a forehead exit from the inside. It could be that they consider themselves more expert on tissue and brain fill material rather than specific skull bone properties during a high compressive bullet strike.
In any case, I was just interested some of the final residual brain tissue disposition shown in the test.
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I well understand modeling can be a challenge, and I do have a couple of gripes about the rear shot recreation done in Inside the Target Car, but I think they may have done the highest tech recreation I have seen to date.
My question is based on the attached jpg, after the test shot.
There is a glob of tissue exuded/hanging forward outside the skull after the rear shot happened.
Is there any film evidence of this particular effect, or was there any testimony that indicated something like this happened (perhaps before being pushed back inside the skull)?
Thanks
A proper re-creation should have used a 50 grain 223 AR15 hollowpoint (instead of a 6.5 mm 150 grain FMJ).
And the trajekt throo the head should have been an inch deep or not much more than that (as the elevation of the AR15 in Queen Mary was only say an inch higher than the windshield, measured from the pavement of Elm St).
I doubt that details of the splatter etc is going to tell u anything that we dont already know.
If i were u i would investigate the dent in the chrome trim, ie whether it is compatible with a 223 (it is).
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A proper re-creation should have used a 50 grain 223 AR15 hollowpoint (instead of a 6.5 mm 150 grain FMJ).
And the trajekt throo the head should have been an inch deep or not much more than that (as the elevation of the AR15 in Queen Mary was only say an inch higher than the windshield, measured from the pavement of Elm St).
I doubt that details of the splatter etc is going to tell u anything that we dont already know.
If i were u i would investigate the dent in the chrome trim, ie whether it is compatible with a 223 (it is).
I think the chrome trim dent could be compatible with a 567.
(a CE567 @ ~800fps)
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I think the chrome trim dent could be compatible with a 567.
(a CE567 @ ~800fps)
Kellerman said that at the first shot JFK said -- "My God, I am hit". This is of course the shot that ricocheted off the signal arm guy rod (mast) at say pseudo Z105 (Holland said Z103). The ricochet gave us three lots of fragments. (1) The shower of small lead hit JFK in the back of the head, actually the right-hand-side of the back, koz he was looking right (Xrays). (2) The lead slug put a hole in the floor near the jump seats, & rattled around tween the driveshaft road & limo (photo)(FBI letter).. (3) The brass full metal jacket broke in two as usual (made in 2 halves), & ended up hitting carpet tween the jump seats (CE567 CE569).
Roselle & Scearce say first shot was at i think Z124 plus or minus (i think) 3 frames (ie Z121-Z127), based on reactions.
Hence reactions suggest that Z105 is 16-19 Z frames too early (& Z103 is 18-21 Z frames too early).
So, u are today saying that CE567 was probly from the headshot at Z313, & that CE567 after outshoot made the dent.
I could mention say 10 ballistic facts that each kill that theory, & say 10 non-ballistic facts.
What is needed is someone with a good brain (ie u) to test a 223 hitting a (proper) model of the chrome trim etc.
The critical thing is whether the 223 would make a hole instead of a dent.
The dent was made by the penultimate shot (at about Z309) of Hickey's accidental auto burst of at least 4 shots (Z313 being the last shot).
This shot was nearly parallel to the Elm St pavement, from say 27 ft (muzzle of AR15 to dent).
First contact with chrome was on the midline of the chrome (ie on the crease at midline).
The initial lead splatter was partly down & forward (as per the angle of the bottom half of the face of the chrome below the midline), damaging the rear vision mirror.
Then, when the chrome dent started to develop, the splatter was 360deg & backwards.
I could help with needed details. Nobody else around here has a clue.
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I'm wondering if Hickey ever paid for the First Ladies dry cleaning bill from November 22?
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Marjan, thanks for detailing your thoughts, it helped me understand your hypothesis. It is a little more complex than I have heard before, so I would need to think about that more. I suppose here I can respond to a couple of questions and limitations.
You made the statement u are today saying that CE567 was probably from the headshot at Z313, & that CE567 after outshoot made the dent.
Yes, that is my current thinking on that. It is a simpler scenario than what you propose, but being simple doesnt necessarily make it right.
If I could help you with chrome dent testing I would, but I dont have the hardware capabilities or resources to conduct testing on windshields/chrome.
The best I can do here is say that the scenario I currently use is based on the data that nearly 50% of the bullet that CE567 came from, apparently was never recovered. It appears that a large fragment escaped the limo, likely heading in the direction of Tague. If CE567 hit the chrome, then it also missed exiting the limo by just an inch or two.
As I mentioned, I cant do much experimentation regarding this aspect, but L. Haag did. Some experimentation done by L. Haag would support the CE567 chrome effect and the missing fragment Tague possibility. Haag conducted some experiments which suggested large bullet fragments from a skull shot could be deflected upward (hence escape the limo).
I did do a quick look analysis on if such an escaping fragment could reach the curb by Tague, and a little to my surprise, it appeared that it could.
The following is a quote by Haag which describes his testing.
He describes the testing as A section of fresh bovine scapula 5 to 6mm thick (0.20 to 0.24-in.) was mounted against 10%w/w ordnance gelatin at an angle to represent the non-orthogonal intercept angle of the shot into the back of the Presidents head. A second piece of scapula bone was positioned on the opposite side of the small gelatin block as shown in this figure. A shot fired into this target arrangement with a WCC bullet launched from one of the authors M91/38 Carcano rifles secured in a machine rest exited in multiple fragments as recorded on a cardboard witness panel located approximately 3-feet downrange of the target
It is interesting to note that the majority of the bullet fragments were dispersed upward relative to these bullets pre-impact flight paths. This strongly suggests that this upward deflection was initiated very early during these bullets interaction with the first layer of bone.
This is all I can provide related to actual ballistic testing. The Tague curb thing was a mathematical model.
As far as the chrome dent or other limo damage goes, the only thing I could do for you along those lines is to follow up with a gentleman I met in a bowling league recently. He said his late dad had worked for Hess & Eisenhardt here in Cincinnati, and his dad saw the limo after it was returned to them after the assassination. I can ask him if he is aware of any comments that were passed down to the family related to the chrome dent or any other limo damage.
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Marjan, thanks for detailing your thoughts, it helped me understand your hypothesis. It is a little more complex than I have heard before, so I would need to think about that more. I suppose here I can respond to a couple of questions and limitations.
You made the statement u are today saying that CE567 was probably from the headshot at Z313, & that CE567 after outshoot made the dent.
Yes, that is my current thinking on that. It is a simpler scenario than what you propose, but being simple doesnt necessarily make it right.
If I could help you with chrome dent testing I would, but I dont have the hardware capabilities or resources to conduct testing on windshields/chrome.
The best I can do here is say that the scenario I currently use is based on the data that nearly 50% of the bullet that CE567 came from, apparently was never recovered. It appears that a large fragment escaped the limo, likely heading in the direction of Tague. If CE567 hit the chrome, then it also missed exiting the limo by just an inch or two.
As I mentioned, I cant do much experimentation regarding this aspect, but L. Haag did. Some experimentation done by L. Haag would support the CE567 chrome effect and the missing fragment Tague possibility. Haag conducted some experiments which suggested large bullet fragments from a skull shot could be deflected upward (hence escape the limo).
I did do a quick look analysis on if such an escaping fragment could reach the curb by Tague, and a little to my surprise, it appeared that it could.
The following is a quote by Haag which describes his testing.
He describes the testing as A section of fresh bovine scapula 5 to 6mm thick (0.20 to 0.24-in.) was mounted against 10%w/w ordnance gelatin at an angle to represent the non-orthogonal intercept angle of the shot into the back of the Presidents head. A second piece of scapula bone was positioned on the opposite side of the small gelatin block as shown in this figure. A shot fired into this target arrangement with a WCC bullet launched from one of the authors M91/38 Carcano rifles secured in a machine rest exited in multiple fragments as recorded on a cardboard witness panel located approximately 3-feet downrange of the target
It is interesting to note that the majority of the bullet fragments were dispersed upward relative to these bullets pre-impact flight paths. This strongly suggests that this upward deflection was initiated very early during these bullets interaction with the first layer of bone.
This is all I can provide related to actual ballistic testing. The Tague curb thing was a mathematical model.
As far as the chrome dent or other limo damage goes, the only thing I could do for you along those lines is to follow up with a gentleman I met in a bowling league recently. He said his late dad had worked for Hess & Eisenhardt here in Cincinnati, and his dad saw the limo after it was returned to them after the assassination. I can ask him if he is aware of any comments that were passed down to the family related to the chrome dent or any other limo damage.
Yes, ask him if anyone at H&E had any ideas re the dent in the chrome trim.
And ask him if his dad was the worker who photographed the hole in the floor pan between the jump seats, the keyhole shaped hole being made by the main body of the slug from the ricochet at Z103.
I describe the pattern of Hickey's auto burst in my threads, if u search.
Olivier fired a Carcano through 10 skulls filled with gelatine. He got almost zero fragmentation. And all of his shots were too low, & went through the hard part of the skulls at eye/nose.
The problem with the AR15 (correct) theory is that the (smallish remnant of the) hollowpoint slug at Z313 had to veer about 6 deg in JFK's head to then crack the windshield. 6 deg is easyish for a FMJ, but a big ask for a hollowpoint, especially in only say 7 inches of skull/brain. But (similarly to Haag's FMJ tests) it is known that the AR15 hollowpoint veers a lot if it firstly hits an angled hard surface, which it of course did (JFK's skull on an angle)(but no such AR15 tests were done on a skull as far as i know).
U might know. I karnt find the witness panel results for a Carcano FMJ ricochets off pipe. I remember that the finer lead splatter had a small deflexion angle (hit JFK in back right of head at Z103), & the main remnant lead slug had a wider angle (& put a hole in the floor of the limo), & the 2 half jackets (there are allways 2 halves) took the widest angle (i think) but did not damage anything or hit anyone.
The main argument anti the AR15 making the dent in the chrome has been that at 3200 fps the 50 grain hollowpoint would make a hole not a dent. But, i reckon that a hard stainless steel trim with a crease at mid height & with an air gap on very solid mild steel rectangular tube would not yield a hole.
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Yes, ask him if anyone at H&E had any ideas re the dent in the chrome trim.
And ask him if his dad was the worker who photographed the hole in the floor pan between the jump seats, the keyhole shaped hole being made by the main body of the slug from the ricochet at Z103.
I describe the pattern of Hickey's auto burst in my threads, if u search.
Olivier fired a Carcano through 10 skulls filled with gelatine. He got almost zero fragmentation. And all of his shots were too low, & went through the hard part of the skulls at eye/nose.
The problem with the AR15 (correct) theory is that the hollowpoint slug at Z313 had to veer about 6 deg in JFK's head to then crack the windshield. 6 deg is easyish for a FMJ, but a big ask for a hollowpoint, especially in only say 7 inches of skull/brain. But (similarly to Haag's FMJ tests) it is known that the AR15 hollowpoint veers a lot if it firstly hits an angled hard surface, which it of course did (JFK's skull on an angle)(but no such AR15 tests were done on a skull as far as i know).
U might know. I karnt find the witness panel results for a Carcano FMJ ricochets off pipe. I remember that the finer lead splatter had a small deflexion angle (hit JFK in back right of head at Z103), & the main remnant lead slug had a wider angle (& put a hole in the floor of the limo), & the 2 half jackets (there are allways 2 halves) took the widest angle (i think) but did not damage anything or hit anyone.
The main argument anti the AR15 making the dent in the chrome has been that at 3200 fps the 50 grain hollowpoint would make a hole not a dent. But, i reckon that a hard stainless steel trim with a crease at mid height & with an air gap on very solid mild steel rectangular tube would not yield a hole.
OK, Ill try to reconnect with the gentleman, and inquire about what he may have heard from his dad about the limo.
If you have a reference to that picture of a bullet hole through the Presidential limo floorboard, direct me to that, I will print it out and share that, and see what he has to say.
In Oliviers experiments, maybe not all bullets fragmented for him, but it seems enough may have to influence his conclusions in his WC testimony.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you formulate any other conclusions or opinions based on the tests on firing at the skull?
Dr. OLIVIER. Well, lets see. We found that this bullet could do exactly - could make the type of wound that the President received. Also, that the recovered fragments were very similar to the ones recovered on the front seat and on the floor of the car. This, to me, indicates that those fragments did come from the bullet that wounded the President in the head.
Mr. SPECTER. And how do the two major fragments in 857 compare, then, with the fragments heretofore identified as 567 and 569?
Dr. OLIVIER. They are quite similar.
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OK, Ill try to reconnect with the gentleman, and inquire about what he may have heard from his dad about the limo.
If you have a reference to that picture of a bullet hole through the Presidential limo floorboard, direct me to that, I will print it out and share that, and see what he has to say.
In Oliviers experiments, maybe not all bullets fragmented for him, but it seems enough may have to influence his conclusions in his WC testimony.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you formulate any other conclusions or opinions based on the tests on firing at the skull?
Dr. OLIVIER. Well, lets see. We found that this bullet could do exactly - could make the type of wound that the President received. Also, that the recovered fragments were very similar to the ones recovered on the front seat and on the floor of the car. This, to me, indicates that those fragments did come from the bullet that wounded the President in the head.
Mr. SPECTER. And how do the two major fragments in 857 compare, then, with the fragments heretofore identified as 567 and 569?
Dr. OLIVIER. They are quite similar.
Hi Brian, if you do succeed in reconnecting with the gentleman whose father worked at H&E, please ask him if he knows whether or not there are any dimensioned plans associated with the construction or reconstruction of the limo. Some of us, Jerry Organ, James Hackerott, and myself have 3-D computer models and have been working from photos, etc trying to determine some of the dimensions, etc. Thanks! :)
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Hi Brian, if you do succeed in reconnecting with the gentleman whose father worked at H&E, please ask him if he knows whether or not there are any dimensioned plans associated with the construction or reconstruction of the limo. Some of us, Jerry Organ, James Hackerott, and myself have 3-D computer models and have been working from photos, etc trying to determine some of the dimensions, etc. Thanks! :)
Hi Charles, Sure I can check on that for you. I'm not sure how much he knows, but hopefully he will have some information of interest (or some good story). It would probably be next week before I could meet up with him.
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Hi Charles, Sure I can check on that for you. I'm not sure how much he knows, but hopefully he will have some information of interest (or some good story). It would probably be next week before I could meet up with him.
Awesome Brian, thanks! By the way, the drawing that the WC and HSCA used was drawn by Ron Knowles of the White House Communications Agency. That drawing has shown itself to be inaccurate and only shows a few dimensions that apparently the investigators asked for. The drawing I am hoping we can find would be something more along the lines of a construction drawing. It would be something that the actual builders would need in order to know how to build the limo. It would have a lot of dimensions and likely some specifications shown on it. I know it is a long shot, but maybe someone kept a copy of the drawing. If so, it would be very helpful and I imagine it would be quite valuable.
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OK, Ill try to reconnect with the gentleman, and inquire about what he may have heard from his dad about the limo.
If you have a reference to that picture of a bullet hole through the Presidential limo floorboard, direct me to that, I will print it out and share that, and see what he has to say.
In Oliviers experiments, maybe not all bullets fragmented for him, but it seems enough may have to influence his conclusions in his WC testimony.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you formulate any other conclusions or opinions based on the tests on firing at the skull?
Dr. OLIVIER. Well, lets see. We found that this bullet could do exactly - could make the type of wound that the President received. Also, that the recovered fragments were very similar to the ones recovered on the front seat and on the floor of the car. This, to me, indicates that those fragments did come from the bullet that wounded the President in the head.
Mr. SPECTER. And how do the two major fragments in 857 compare, then, with the fragments heretofore identified as 567 and 569?
Dr. OLIVIER. They are quite similar.
Donahue met Olivier, & saw the 10 skulls, & was not impressed (Mortal Error). Its simple, no FMJ will fragment when going through the top part of a skull zero not 1 in 100 not 1 in 1000 Olivier's story is krapp.
Re the bullet hole photo etc see my post 9march2021 Did Oswald's first shot put a hole in the floor of JFK's limo?
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2853.msg108260.html#msg108260
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3frYKg1R44fdSxFV1NTyfMJUFJpHrCQPgEJuHKrrF4-uUhzTB1UQdeLhyym7im915BI2BlpFqkbeZs2DS9bZfhEe5MfQxx6_yYjrj1bNH5ZhqKySKPIQtbOqi40oce135QyUlUEZUAk-9JoZIGkFnhj=w174-h113-no?authuser=0)
Re Hickey's spray pattern see my post 29april2021 Was Hickey's AR15 in burst mode?
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2833.32.html
(https://i.postimg.cc/TPM9r7vX/Hickey-6-shot-burst.jpg)
Re Hickey's auto burst timeline see my post 11may2021 Bronson saw Hickey shoot JFK.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2836.24.html
So, here is my chart showing the timeline for Hickey's 6-shot accidental auto burst.
B06A.36 & B02A.72 happen to fall on a dummy frame placed at a skip, the A denotes a dummy frame.
There were 6 dummy frames, which i called B02A B06A B08A B12A B15A & B15B. And they have been placed before frames B02 B06 B08 B12 & B15.
shot ... zapruder frame ....... Bronson frame
....
Z319
B09
.
Z318
B08.84
.
Z317
B07.68
.
Z316
B06.52
.
Z315
B06A.36
...
Z314
B05.20
6.000
Z313
B04.04
5.636
Z312
B02.88
5.272
Z311
B02A.72
4.908
Z310
B01.56
4.544
Z309
B00.40
4.180
Z308
B-00.76
3.816
Z307
B-01.92
3.452
Z306
B-03.08
3.088
Z305
B-04.24
2.724
Z304
B-05.40
2.360
Z303
B-06.56
1.996
Z302
B-07.72
1.632
Z301
B-08.88
1.268
Z300
B-10.04
0.904
Z299
B-11.20
Re the Z310 shot denting the chrome trim after grazing the bottom of the limo divider (roll bar) see my post 16jan2023 -- Was Hickey's AR15 in burst mode?
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2833.72.html
(https://i.postimg.cc/7Z1wD31w/AR15-at-Z310-the-shot-that-made-the-dent.jpg)
Re the chrome trim stopping a slug see my post 14march2021 -- Was Hickey's AR15 in burst mode?
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2833.8.html
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/KQwbUjPh0SQ9pbofbGwAzeVl231qvsWgz-iTA62lppydbfMLTViHjNHGrYs3Bt42snmn8vN86vwPcygG4ED8JSUyeFbD0bzXknf97TtkRs04Y8TI5cgdnhqAacbQ41eomyZy95hn4kq3mFvpGskRvdxMoBWWV2Clqww9iRwdLVmbv5dKia9ojfLASXgnBR5_ANI6ZOvDV4ku5TA8yQW-oQxzpr7dvSOor-IJWuHMQlJfq6QJt10ykTAZslJ9Z8epDnUSGATAuOW570qUvUYU8cISloW6JQc7CnlLESIXhyjeb6Rw3WeliHRLmqZvOxTa4a1yDTzElFiglXgAcxnyoYwB_NhfruKMJ9Hz0Jj4WKNWvlB4rFavZeTcv-q8GmPE0l_bwCp7Vc-xuS5PmT66ayCqha3PdBaPiA9XGGtOa8xhscChvRsh_fCTKwsJBgeqy5NZulkntLIM-3lZ4rm-0JkzyNhhYK3kHEaVA-6LihUVxF8BI6ZSZw0KfZMo18zRJwNAI5A1H852M1GGb3ZEnOB6219pltwexYCn033LMtkah63XyJg6m0idSgdwHTLL1H1FK6Z4GgVX0Y_IIFjGKvIzJLNF4j4zzpjZRJv4MyaxZkLN3bflw6T6std2t2XRtgYAWaQW0iVndeKsIAu8Wvt4TDSgmiLHfYcfE9FPjQRB7rajb6FiKSMLrWAaz1c4L798_24KXBvbfJchEHGpT3l-=w548-h381-no?authuser=0)
One problem re the chrome dent is whether the under-half-face of the chrome trim has enuff angle to guide the initial splatter (ie before the dent forms) directly at the rear vision mirror.
I have not seen the damage to the rear vision mirror but i am taking the word of other members here that there was damage (a small dent i suppose)(the workers at H&E would have known)(was the rear vision mirror replaced)(i have a full list of the work in Dec1963 but am too lazy to check).
The initial splatter might have ricocheted offa the metalwork holding the visor rather than hitting the mirror directly.
In fact we dont have to fixate on the initial angle of the initial splatter -- the main splatter would easily ricochet offa the metalwork holding the visor & then impact the mirror.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fzLkw33BtPHlvej93LCdRDC84baVEaKKNdZChIAVG_hoOnqGGzP7N7WodKX9dULZKanCTZwPRWceZtFU1CVWZqFdrgqqrf1dlaoh9Ur8saixpawz3AKnAhisSzvkDKtrbjLpnAOHKTOi437HKL7Ahd=w700-h591-no?authuser=0)