JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: James Hackerott on August 20, 2023, 12:35:14 AM
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edit Title change from WFFA to correct WFAA. Sorry for that, and I hope the title change is not a serious issue for anyone.
WFFA’s film of the motorcade’s run to Parkland is shaky, blurry and difficult to make out the vehicles in the film. My stabilization (with about 25% of the frames deleted as too blurry), does a fair, but adequate, job showing the JFK limo, Queen Mary, LBJ car and LBJ’s SS followup car. It appears to me that JFK’s limo and SS followup come to a stop about shortly before the film ends (but ping-pongs in my video). The stop happens at the very right side of the frames. I can’t identify the buildings on the the right as Parkland, but am I wrong?
(https://i.imgur.com/IHO2WYa.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/gAMrjZq.gif)
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WFFA’s film of the motorcade’s run to Parkland is shaky, blurry and difficult to make out the vehicles in the film. My stabilization (with about 25% of the frames deleted as too blurry), does a fair, but adequate, job showing the JFK limo, Queen Mary, LBJ car and LBJ’s SS followup car. It appears to me that JFK’s limo and SS followup come to a stop about shortly before the film ends (but ping-pongs in my video). The stop happens at the very right side of the frames. I can’t identify the buildings on the the right as Parkland, but am I wrong?
(https://i.imgur.com/IHO2WYa.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/gAMrjZq.gif)
Thank you for your work on this. I have been trying to see the limousine in this clip for years and years (since 1983, when I bought a set of WFAA VHS tapes) and never could find anything . No wonder! They're not going up the hill, they're going sideways across the screen!! Bert Shipp narrating the film said they're "going up the hill" so that where my attention was drawn to. Thanks a ton!!!!
Also, the Johnson car and his SS car must have gone over the set of railroad tracks at the top of the hill! H.B. McLain stated that he "Almost lost it" (his motorcycle) when he flew over the tracks.
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Thank you for your work on this. I have been trying to see the limousine in this clip for years and years (since 1983, when I bought a set of WFAA VHS tapes) and never could find anything . No wonder! They're not going up the hill, they're going sideways across the screen!! Bert Shipp narrating the film said they're "going up the hill" so that where my attention was drawn to. Thanks a ton!!!!
Also, the Johnson car and his SS car must have gone over the set of railroad tracks at the top of the hill! H.B. McLain stated that he "Almost lost it" (his motorcycle) when he flew over the tracks.
James Courson gave this account in "No More Silence."
"Just before we reached Harry Hines Boulevard there was a railroad track on a small incline. All the motorcycles left the ground at the same time, and it appeared that the wheels of the limousine came off the ground as well. Of course, the driver was doing all he could to handle the car after jumping the track and then preparing to make the sharp *left* turn onto Harry Hines."
A "sharp left turn"? Sure looks like it turned to the right after going over the tracks.
Courson said he was located behind the limo on Houston Street during the shooting but then raced up and caught up with it as it entered/turned onto the Stemmons Freeway ramp.
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Well done, as usual James. I could be wrong, but it appears to me that the bump in the road that the vehicles are going over would be the railroad tracks before Harry Hines Blvd. Here is a modern map view. I drew yellow circled numbers as follows: 1= Trade Mart, 2= railroad track crossing (I red-lined the tracks themselves), 3= Parkland Hospital.
(https://i.vgy.me/NhYRW8.jpg)
It appears to me that there is a sharp curve in the road to the right between the tracks crossing and the left turn onto Harry Hines. Once the vehicles are on Harry Hines, they are moving almost directly away from the camera. This might appear that they have stopped (if the film ends at that point). Parkland is a bit further up Harry Hines. It is about 0.9-miles between the Trade Mart and Parkland. So I don’t think we would be able to see them very well (if at all) from that distance.
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Well done, as usual James. I could be wrong, but it appears to me that the bump in the road that the vehicles are going over would be the railroad tracks before Harry Hines Blvd. Here is a modern map view. I drew yellow circled numbers as follows: 1= Trade Mart, 2= railroad track crossing (I red-lined the tracks themselves), 3= Parkland Hospital.
(https://i.vgy.me/NhYRW8.jpg)
It appears to me that there is a sharp curve in the road to the right between the tracks crossing and the left turn onto Harry Hines. Once the vehicles are on Harry Hines, they are moving almost directly away from the camera. This might appear that they have stopped (if the film ends at that point). Parkland is a bit further up Harry Hines. It is about 0.9-miles between the Trade Mart and Parkland. So I don’t think we would be able to see them very well (if at all) from that distance.
Thanks Charles. It looks like the connecting road between Stemmons and Harry Hines Rd is Market Center Blvd (current name anyway). If they are turning right (per video) then they are headed SE on Harry Hines. Only the limo and Queen Mary have stopped, and are essentially perpendicular to the camera and are stopped, while the other two cars turn right after the tracks are catching up. They then would need to turn around and head NW to Parkland. Your point about being too far away for the camera (at Parkland) is well taken, but possibly the camera had a telephoto lens. I wish I knew pretty precisely where the camera was placed. I can’t find a 1963 era aerial of that area. Time to sleep on it for now.
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James Courson gave this account in "No More Silence."
"Just before we reached Harry Hines Boulevard there was a railroad track on a small incline. All the motorcycles left the ground at the same time, and it appeared that the wheels of the limousine came off the ground as well. Of course, the driver was doing all he could to handle the car after jumping the track and then preparing to make the sharp *left* turn onto Harry Hines."
A "sharp left turn"? Sure looks like it turned to the right after going over the tracks.
Courson said he was located behind the limo on Houston Street during the shooting but then raced up and caught up with it as it entered/turned onto the Stemmons Freeway ramp.
Thanks for that info. Would the scenario described by Charles above post fit Courson's description?
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Thanks Charles. It looks like the connecting road between Stemmons and Harry Hines Rd is Market Center Blvd (current name anyway). If they are turning right (per video) then they are headed SE on Harry Hines. Only the limo and Queen Mary have stopped, and are essentially perpendicular to the camera and are stopped, while the other two cars turn right after the tracks are catching up. They then would need to turn around and head NW to Parkland. Your point about being too far away for the camera (at Parkland) is well taken, but possibly the camera had a telephoto lens. I wish I knew pretty precisely where the camera was placed. I can’t find a 1963 era aerial of that area. Time to sleep on it for now.
I found a video that has an aerial view. I had to use a PC because it inexplicably doesn’t display the image on my iPad. Look between about 4:55 to 5:05 and you should see the view span between the Trade Mart and Industrial Blvd and Market Hall. The railroad crossing and intersection with Harry Hines is at the top of the image if I am looking at this correctly. Looking at your work on the motorcade run, I seem to see the JFK limo headed to the left towards Parkland. I see this just before the animated GIF reverses and the vehicles begin to “back up”.
https://www.google.com/search?q=dallas+trade+mart+1963&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwjHtKX-2OuAAxW7hIkEHauXDlEQ2-cCegQIABAD&oq=dallas+trade1963&gs_lcp=ChJtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1pbWcQARgAMgYIABAHEB4yBQgAEKIEOgQIIxAnOgcIIxCwAhAnOgQIHhAKOggIABAIEB4QDVCed1iQlQFgoLgBaAFwAHgAgAFjiAHXBJIBATeYAQCgAQHAAQE&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-img&ei=X0TiZIeJG7uJptQPq6-6iAU&bih=695&biw=1080&rlz=1C9BKJA_enUS922US923&hl=en-US#imgrc=PdWql9qc3J2QQM
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Thanks for that info. Would the scenario described by Charles above post fit Courson's description?
You're welcome; it's an interesting thread/film. Not seen it before.
Yeah, looks like Charles has it right. I don't see another railroad track/incline along the way. It seems that the limo/QM stopped or slowed to let the others catch up? I don't recall anyone, e.g., Greer et al., mentioning this.
Bill Lumpkin, another officer, gave this account: "Leon Gray, Chaney and myself escorted the parade on to Parkland Hospital by way of Stemmons, to Industrial, Industrial to Hines, Hines to the entrance into the back of Parkland."
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I found a video that has an aerial view. I had to use a PC because it inexplicably doesn’t display the image on my iPad. Look between about 4:55 to 5:05 and you should see the view span between the Trade Mart and Industrial Blvd and Market Hall. The railroad crossing and intersection with Harry Hines is at the top of the image if I am looking at this correctly. Looking at your work on the motorcade run, I seem to see the JFK limo headed to the left towards Parkland. I see this just before the animated GIF reverses and the vehicles begin to “back up”.
https://www.google.com/search?q=dallas+trade+mart+1963&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwjHtKX-2OuAAxW7hIkEHauXDlEQ2-cCegQIABAD&oq=dallas+trade1963&gs_lcp=ChJtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1pbWcQARgAMgYIABAHEB4yBQgAEKIEOgQIIxAnOgcIIxCwAhAnOgQIHhAKOggIABAIEB4QDVCed1iQlQFgoLgBaAFwAHgAgAFjiAHXBJIBATeYAQCgAQHAAQE&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-img&ei=X0TiZIeJG7uJptQPq6-6iAU&bih=695&biw=1080&rlz=1C9BKJA_enUS922US923&hl=en-US#imgrc=PdWql9qc3J2QQM
Thanks for the link. That video, along with Jerry’s post showing the parking area around the Trade Mart NW side, indicates a clear view of the Harry Hines/Industrial intersection as in the WFAA film. I realize now that intersection is correct and not near Parkland. The identification of those buildings on the right are not important to me now.
I’m not seeing any part of the group moving to the left. Are you seeing the JFK limo heading left in this shortened clip without the ping-pong effect?
(https://i.imgur.com/ygVrS7j.gif)
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You're welcome; it's an interesting thread/film. Not seen it before.
Yeah, looks like Charles has it right. I don't see another railroad track/incline along the way. It seems that the limo/QM stopped or slowed to let the others catch up? I don't recall anyone, e.g., Greer et al., mentioning this.
Bill Lumpkin, another officer, gave this account: "Leon Gray, Chaney and myself escorted the parade on to Parkland Hospital by way of Stemmons, to Industrial, Industrial to Hines, Hines to the entrance into the back of Parkland."
I'm in full agreement with the location of the Harry Hines/Industrial Blvd. intersection. I wonder why the group turned to the right away from Parkland. Speculation--- Was Greer just lost? If Greer hit the tracks hard like the LBJ cars maybe the limo occupants (including Clint Hlll) needed a little help. I'm not aware of this event discussed in any testimony.
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Thanks for the link. That video, along with Jerry’s post showing the parking area around the Trade Mart NW side, indicates a clear view of the Harry Hines/Industrial intersection as in the WFAA film. I realize now that intersection is correct and not near Parkland. The identification of those buildings on the right are not important to me now.
I’m not seeing any part of the group moving to the left. Are you seeing the JFK limo heading left in this shortened clip without the ping-pong effect?
(https://i.imgur.com/ygVrS7j.gif)
It could just be my imagination based on what I would expect to see. But, I do see some movement going to the left in the shortened segment. It appears to me to perhaps just be a white police officer helmet that is ahead of the JFK limo. I see things better on my iPad screen. I think it is an OLED type screen. Look in the area where I drew a yellow circle. You have to be looking between the vehicles that are going to the right because they are between the camera and the movement that I see. Also, I drew the outline (in blue) of what looks to me to possibly be the shape of Parkland Hospital in the distance. If that is actually Parkland, that would be the direction of travel of the vehicles after they cleared the RR tracks and intersection at Hines.
(https://i.vgy.me/0a4geF.jpg)
Here is a photo that shows a similar shape to the blue one that I drew:
(https://i.vgy.me/P5JVOP.jpg)
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It could just be my imagination based on what I would expect to see. But, I do see some movement going to the left in the shortened segment. It appears to me to perhaps just be a white police officer helmet that is ahead of the JFK limo. I see things better on my iPad screen. I think it is an OLED type screen. Look in the area where I drew a yellow circle. You have to be looking between the vehicles that are going to the right because they are between the camera and the movement that I see. Also, I drew the outline (in blue) of what looks to me to possibly be the shape of Parkland Hospital in the distance. If that is actually Parkland, that would be the direction of travel of the vehicles after they cleared the RR tracks and intersection at Hines.
(https://i.vgy.me/0a4geF.jpg)
Here is a photo that shows a similar shape to the blue one that I drew:
(https://i.vgy.me/P5JVOP.jpg)
I'm sorry I can't see that motion. But, during the creation of the animation I did see at least one motorcycle cop at the rear of the driver's side of LBJ's car. I lost track of him so maybe him. I'm attaching a 100 frame stack (average) of the full frames that give a little better view of the "Parkland" object. Maybe more of a shed, much closer.
(https://i.imgur.com/V19fcrE.jpg)
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I'm sorry I can't see that motion. But, during the creation of the animation I did see at least one motorcycle cop at the rear of the driver's side of LBJ's car. I lost track of him so maybe him. I'm attaching a 100 frame stack (average) of the full frames that give a little better view of the "Parkland" object. Maybe more of a shed, much closer.
(https://i.imgur.com/V19fcrE.jpg)
Thanks for the stacked image. I agree with you regarding the Parkland shape. I will have to revise my thinking and let you know if I see anything else.
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(https://i.imgur.com/X413wXf.png)
I do not believe that the motorcade turned right. I think they disappeared from sight once they went over the railroad tracks at the top of the hill, and turned left just as J.W. Courson mentioned to Larry Sneed, as published in "No More Silence". Here is a 1968 aerial photo of Stemmons, showing Parkland, the Trade Mart, the railroad crossing which we see the LBJ car and his SS car along with several motorcycles drive over so fast that the wheels left the ground according to some of the occupants in the film, the TSBD in top right of photograph, and where the limousine was located, having just exited Stemmons Freeway, and in front of an underpass(Circled in redon the photograpgh) and about to make a right turn.
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Here's the same aerial photograph without markings and photograph overlay: (https://i.imgur.com/MelawJW.png)
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Here's a PNG. image I made from the 1964 "Four Days In November" of Parkland Hospital:
(https://i.imgur.com/vIgGjIu.png)
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(https://i.imgur.com/X413wXf.png)
I do not believe that the motorcade turned right. I think they disappeared from sight once they went over the railroad tracks at the top of the hill, and turned left just as J.W. Courson mentioned to Larry Sneed, as published in "No More Silence". Here is a 1968 aerial photo of Stemmons, showing Parkland, the Trade Mart, the railroad crossing which we see the LBJ car and his SS car along with several motorcycles drive over so fast that the wheels left the ground according to some of the occupants in the film, the TSBD in top right of photograph, and where the limousine was located, having just exited Stemmons Freeway, and in front of an underpass(Circled in redon the photograpgh) and about to make a right turn.
That’s a great photo Steve. Just what we needed to see. It shows where Parkland is in relation to the Trade Mart.
Before I saw your post, I found this photo, which doesn’t cover as much territory but shows how the road “fans out” approaching the intersection just after crossing the railroad tracks. From the camera position somewhere in the parking lot of the Trade Mart (blue circle), it would appear that the vehicles were turning right (as they followed the right curve) just before they turned left onto Harry Hines.
(https://i.vgy.me/ccgMmm.jpg)
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth20058/m1/1/ (https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth20058/m1/1/)
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I found another aerial photo looking from the other direction. This was during the construction of the Stemmons Freeway and before the Trade Mart building was built. Parkland Hospital is circled in yellow. The route of the motorcade run is in red. And the blue circle is where the parking lot for the Trade Mart (also camera location) would eventually be.
(https://i.vgy.me/3Hw6v9.jpg)
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I found another aerial photo looking from the other direction. This was during the construction of the Stemmons Freeway and before the Trade Mart building was built. Parkland Hospital is circled in yellow. The route of the motorcade run is in red. And the blue circle is where the parking lot for the Trade Mart (also camera location) would eventually be.
(https://i.vgy.me/3Hw6v9.jpg)
That's a great view. BTW, I found your left moving object. Not sure what it is yet.
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That’s a great photo Steve. Just what we needed to see. It shows where Parkland is in relation to the Trade Mart.
Before I saw your post, I found this photo, which doesn’t cover as much territory but shows how the road “fans out” approaching the intersection just after crossing the railroad tracks. From the camera position somewhere in the parking lot of the Trade Mart (blue circle), it would appear that the vehicles were turning right (as they followed the right curve) just before they turned left onto Harry Hines.
(https://i.vgy.me/ccgMmm.jpg)
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth20058/m1/1/ (https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth20058/m1/1/)
Thanks very much, Charles. Your photograph is a greater find! It shows the area up close, and was taken much closer to 1963 than the one I found!
The white building that appears in the top right background of the WFAA footage had me confused, and thanks to your pic, problem solved.We can that the building was torn down and replaced with a one story building. Great work, Charles!
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Thanks very much, Charles. Your photograph is a greater find! It shows the area up close, and was taken much closer to 1963 than the one I found!
The white building that appears in the top right background of the WFAA footage had me confused, and thanks to your pic, problem solved.We can that the building was torn down and replaced with a one story building. Great work, Charles!
Great ID for the white background building! The multi-winged (now Holiday Inn Express) was probably in progress, at only a few floors at that time. Can we agree on that? Then that leaves a building next to the hotel with a top structure that reminds me of Parkland . However, I can't see any windows. Was there a side to Parkland (facing Trade Market) that did not have widows?
(https://i.imgur.com/WxDVb6N.jpg)
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Great ID for the white background building! The multi-winged (now Holiday Inn Express) was probably in progress, at only a few floors at that time. Can we agree on that? Then that leaves a building next to the hotel with a top structure that reminds me of Parkland . However, I can't see any windows. Was there a side to Parkland (facing Trade Market) that did not have widows?
(https://i.imgur.com/WxDVb6N.jpg)
Here’s a view from google maps from 3-years ago as one is in the intersection just past the railroad tracks where Industrial fans out at the junction to Hines Blvd. I have drawn a red arrow pointing out the old Parkland Hospital (the one which existed in 1963) which is currently being demolished. I drew a blue arrow to the new Parkland hospital. And a yellow arrow to the Holiday Inn Express. (No, I didn’t sleep there last night. ;) ) This appears somewhat similar to the direction of the view from the WFAA footage of the motorcade run. So, if I am looking at things correctly, the stacked image from that footage shows some of the Parkland Hospital at the left side of the image at the top of the hill. There are quite a few telephone poles grouped closely between the camera and the hospital.
(https://i.vgy.me/O4gq4d.jpg)
Someone please correct me If I am wrong. If this is close to being correct, we should be able to use this information to help locate the general area of the camera location in the parking lot of the Trade Mart.
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Here’s a view from google maps from 3-years ago as one is in the intersection just past the railroad tracks where Industrial fans out at the junction to Hines Blvd. I have drawn a red arrow pointing out the old Parkland Hospital (the one which existed in 1963) which is currently being demolished. I drew a blue arrow to the new Parkland hospital. And a yellow arrow to the Holiday Inn Express. (No, I didn’t sleep there last night. ;) ) This appears somewhat similar to the direction of the view from the WFAA footage of the motorcade run. So, if I am looking at things correctly, the stacked image from that footage shows some of the Parkland Hospital at the left side of the image at the top of the hill. There are quite a few telephone poles grouped closely between the camera and the hospital.
(https://i.vgy.me/O4gq4d.jpg)
Someone please correct me If I am wrong. If this is close to being correct, we should be able to use this information to help locate the general area of the camera location in the parking lot of the Trade Mart.
Thanks, that looks good to me. I've been using the camera position between the two parking areas close to the side doorway. That puts a line of sight very close to yours. The more I look at the stacked image the less I think it is due to the hotel, and is maybe just windows or something part of the white building.
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Thanks, that looks good to me. I've been using the camera position between the two parking areas close to the side doorway. That puts a line of sight very close to yours. The more I look at the stacked image the less I think it is due to the hotel, and is maybe just windows or something part of the white building.
Here’s a photo of the ambulance leaving Parkland Hospital with the slain President. The mobile unit from WFAA could possibly be one that they moved there from the Trade Mart once it became obvious what had happened. The building in the background is Lingo Lumber, and is across Hines Blvd from the hospital. It has a distinctive roof and I think I have located it on a couple of the aerial photos. I am guessing that the cameraman is following the lead cars escorting the ambulance to Love Field. Perhaps he hasn’t yet noticed the ambulance just below him.
(https://i.vgy.me/p4iFjK.jpg)
Edit: I drew a yellow arrow to show the Lingo Lumber building and it’s distinctive roof:
(https://i.vgy.me/x5NVOf.jpg)
Edit #2:
I suspect that the dark part of that distinctive roof can be seen in your stacked image. I drew a yellow arrow to show what I mean:
(https://i.vgy.me/fMFtaP.jpg)
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Here’s a photo of the ambulance leaving Parkland Hospital with the slain President. The mobile unit from WFAA could possibly be one that they moved there from the Trade Mart once it became obvious what had happened. The building in the background is Lingo Lumber, and is across Hines Blvd from the hospital. It has a distinctive roof and I think I have located it on a couple of the aerial photos. I am guessing that the cameraman is following the lead cars escorting the ambulance to Love Field. Perhaps he hasn’t yet noticed the ambulance just below him.
(https://i.vgy.me/p4iFjK.jpg)
Edit: I drew a yellow arrow to show the Lingo Lumber building and it’s distinctive roof:
(https://i.vgy.me/x5NVOf.jpg)
Edit #2:
I suspect that the dark part of that distinctive roof can be seen in your stacked image. I drew a yellow arrow to show what I mean:
(https://i.vgy.me/fMFtaP.jpg)
I think you are right again. I made another stack where I put the stack focus in the area of this building, but don't think it improved the image much. Can you make out a Parkland candidate?
(https://i.imgur.com/NifgwiH.png)
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I think you are right again. I made another stack where I put the stack focus in the area of this building, but don't think it improved the image much. Can you make out a Parkland candidate?
(https://i.imgur.com/NifgwiH.png)
I drew a yellow outline of what looks to me to be the tallest portion of Parkland Hospital.
(https://i.vgy.me/SCBjkZ.jpg)
I now think that my first stab at locating the distinctive roof of the Lingo Lumber building in your stacked image is probably wrong. Now it looks like that dark area could be a horizontal member of a telephone pole? All the different angles and perspectives can easily confuse me. Compare what the yellow outline above indicates with what we can see in this image from google maps:
(https://i.vgy.me/no5hNj.jpg)
Also, for another perspective, take a look at the aerial image taken when Stemmons Freeway was still under construction. It is at least from a similar direction.
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I drew a yellow outline of what looks to me to be the tallest portion of Parkland Hospital.
(https://i.vgy.me/SCBjkZ.jpg)
I now think that my first stab at locating the distinctive roof of the Lingo Lumber building in your stacked image is probably wrong. Now it looks like that dark area could be a horizontal member of a telephone pole? All the different angles and perspectives can easily confuse me. Compare what the yellow outline above indicates with what we can see in this image from google maps:
(https://i.vgy.me/no5hNj.jpg)
Also, for another perspective, take a look at the aerial image taken when Stemmons Freeway was still under construction. It is at least from a similar direction.
I pinned Google Earth with Parkland Hospital (highest floors per your yellow outline), Lingo Lumber using the address 5116 Hines from the 1961 Dallas City Directory, and the RR tracks at Industrial at Hines (from the WFFA film car jumps). I also traced a path along Hines in green. Then, in Google Earth ground-level view, overlay the WFFA frame stack. It does appear the lumber company building is not the building you first thought, which you already realize, but I had fun anyway.
(https://i.imgur.com/688ycgA.jpg)
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I pinned Google Earth with Parkland Hospital (highest floors per your yellow outline), Lingo Lumber using the address 5116 Hines from the 1961 Dallas City Directory, and the RR tracks at Industrial at Hines (from the WFFA film car jumps). I also traced a path along Hines in green. Then, in Google Earth ground-level view, overlay the WFFA frame stack. It does appear the lumber company building is not the building you first thought, which you already realize, but I had fun anyway.
(https://i.imgur.com/688ycgA.jpg)
Yep, the fun is in the challenge of figuring stuff like this out. Good job. If I understand your pins correctly, we appear to have oriented these items reasonably close in the stacked image from the WFAA film. My first attempt at locating Lingo Lumber in the stacked image was just an educated guess without any real attempt to line things up. You have located it where I thought it would be after I had looked at things closer and from many different angles. This has been a good exercise. I have a better feel for the big changes in what we see by changing the angle only slightly.
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Yep, the fun is in the challenge of figuring stuff like this out. Good job. If I understand your pins correctly, we appear to have oriented these items reasonably close in the stacked image from the WFAA film. My first attempt at locating Lingo Lumber in the stacked image was just an educated guess without any real attempt to line things up. You have located it where I thought it would be after I had looked at things closer and from many different angles. This has been a good exercise. I have a better feel for the big changes in what we see by changing the angle only slightly.
Hi Guys,
I just checked in to see the latest progress of this great thread. You guys are awesome, Charles and James! Now I can see how this is laid out! Thanks so very much for all your hard work, and I know others watching this thread feel the same way. However...there is one thing regarding my post of the aerial photo, and my addition of red arrows and such.
Upon looking over everything, I discovered that I have the big, dark red arrow labeled wrong! I posted the letters "RR Crossing"and am actually pointing to Stemmons Freeway, not the railroad crossing! I have the arrow pointing to the wrong spot! I'm truly sorry about this! Gargantuous mistake on my part. I'm going to try to fix it and move the arrow to the proper spot.
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Why is this considered a "great thread?" It's a pixelly, blurry 5-second clip taken from far, far away and proves absolutely nothing one way or the other. I'm constantly amazed on here of how people get into a lather about something that means nothing.
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Why is this considered a "great thread?" It's a pixelly, blurry 5-second clip taken from far, far away and proves absolutely nothing one way or the other. I'm constantly amazed on here of how people get into a lather about something that means nothing.
For years and years, some of us who study the photographic evidence have never been able to see the motorcade "Going up the hill" in the WFAA-TV film that was broadcast live the day of the assassination, as it was narrated by WFAA-camera man Bert Shipp. In fact, barely anything could be made out in the film due to horrendously bad quality video tape.
Over the past few years, due to technologyy, we have been able to get our hands on better quality copies of certain footage taken that tragic day. James' find finally allowed many of us to actually see where the motorcade was when this "5-second clip taken from far away" came to surface for James, who shared it with us. To you, it's nothing, to us, it's a great find, and allows us for the first time to see something we couldn't see before, that took place while the president was being taken to Parkland Hospital.
I'm not sure why this "amazes" you, but to each their own. It's a great thread because it's a discussion about a new find in film footage taken November 22, 1963.
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Why is this considered a "great thread?" It's a pixelly, blurry 5-second clip taken from far, far away and proves absolutely nothing one way or the other. I'm constantly amazed on here of how people get into a lather about something that means nothing.
I agree with Steve Barber, it is about discovery. (No matter whether or not it answers any questions that you might consider critical.) Steve is the one who discovered the crosstalk in the DPD radio tape recordings and brought it to the attention of the world. So compliments from Steve about this thread are quite special in my book.
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Hi Guys,
I just checked in to see the latest progress of this great thread. You guys are awesome, Charles and James! Now I can see how this is laid out! Thanks so very much for all your hard work, and I know others watching this thread feel the same way. However...there is one thing regarding my post of the aerial photo, and my addition of red arrows and such.
Upon looking over everything, I discovered that I have the big, dark red arrow labeled wrong! I posted the letters "RR Crossing"and am actually pointing to Stemmons Freeway, not the railroad crossing! I have the arrow pointing to the wrong spot! I'm truly sorry about this! Gargantuous mistake on my part. I'm going to try to fix it and move the arrow to the proper spot.
Thank you Steve. Even if only one person gets some value from the work any effort on my part is very worth while.
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Steve thanks for reading my mind! Wonderful photo.
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I was a teen in Dallas in 1963 and I'm very familiar with all the assassination landmarks. To me it's very enjoyable to play detective and try to figure out what is going on in these old photos. Keep up with posts like this.
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I agree with Steve Barber, it is about discovery. (No matter whether or not it answers any questions that you might consider critical.) Steve is the one who discovered the crosstalk in the DPD radio tape recordings and brought it to the attention of the world. So compliments from Steve about this thread are quite special in my book.
Thanks ever so much, Charles, for the compliments.
I deeply enjoy very much when a group of researchers can get together, and work on projects such as this very interesting one that James Hackerott
started. It's been a great pleasure working with both of you, Charles and James.
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Thank you Steve. Even if only one person gets some value from the work any effort on my part is very worth while.
You're very welcome, James. And thank YOU for starting this thread and sharing your very clear version of the Bert Shipp WFAA footage and solving a puzzle of the mystery of the limousine on the way to Parkland Hospital!
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Steve thanks for reading my mind! Wonderful photo.
LOL! You're very welcome, Louis! I'm glad you like the photo--and speaking of, here's the corrected version, showing the correct location of the railroad crossing which I mislabeled in the previous one. (https://i.imgur.com/tMUWVQI.png)
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I decided to make one more version of the animation using bitmap versus jpeg frames, along with removal of more blurry frames and application of sharpening. The effort paid off as this scene was not evident to me in the earlier versions.
The action NW of the Hines/Industrial intersection begins near mid frame and extends westward to the upper left of the frame. The early frames show one and maybe two cars moving NW on Harry Hines towards Parkland Memorial Hospital. Shortly, near mid frame, a police motorcycle will pass those cars as the cars come to a stop. As the first motorcycle leaves the frame a second motorcycle cop follows the same path, maybe 75 feet behind the first motorcycle. Near the end of the animation at the left side a third and then fourth motorcyclist enters, about 75 feet behind the second motorcycle. At the scale of the animation the motorcycles policemen appear little more than black dots. The animation will repeat after a three second delay.
(https://i.imgur.com/V4ySrMP.gif)
I wonder if the Hines/Industrial intersection was yet under police control. Here are the police radio logs taken from JFK First Day Evidence (Gary Savage):
Police Radio Logs Excerpts
Channel I
p387-388
12:34:25 Disp Report to Inwood and Stemmons and cut all traffic for the ambulance headed to
Parkland. Code 3
12:34:32 (24) Inwood and Stemmons?
12:34:35 Disp Inwood and Stemmons, where they come off Stemmons, going to Parkland.
12:34:40 (24) 10-4
12:34:43 Disp Make your assignment Code, 24
12:34:45 (24) 10-4
12:35:38 Ch2Disp Attention all emergency equipment. Attention all emergency equipment. Do not
use Industrial Boulevard..Do not use Industrial Boulevard. 12:36
12:36:36 (Disp) ..Inwood and Stemmons and assist 24...21., go up there to Hines and cut that
service road off there where that ambulance can go on to Parkland.
And on Channel II
p406-407
12:35 (15-2) (The) Captain advises, have all emergency traffic use some route besides
Industrial. Have 283 cut the traffic at Hines and Industrial.
12:35 Disp 10-4. 283 cut traffic, Hines and Industrial. 283, cut traffic Hines and Industrial.
(then using simultaneous broadcast)
12:36 Disp Attention all emergency equipment...Attention all emergency equipment...Do not
use Industrial Boulevard, 12:36
12:36 (220) Where do you want traffic cut in that area [Parkland]?
Disp Keep all traffic out of the emergency entrance to Parkland Hospital, and all
emergency equipment off of Industrial Boulevard.
(125) We have the emergency entrance secure at Parkland.
12:37 Disp 10-4, 125, 12:37
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I decided to make one more version of the animation using bitmap versus jpeg frames, along with removal of more blurry frames and application of sharpening. The effort paid off as this scene was not evident to me in the earlier versions.
The action NW of the Hines/Industrial intersection begins near mid frame and extends westward to the upper left of the frame. The early frames show one and maybe two cars moving NW on Harry Hines towards Parkland Memorial Hospital. Shortly, near mid frame, a police motorcycle will pass those cars as the cars come to a stop. As the first motorcycle leaves the frame a second motorcycle cop follows the same path, maybe 75 feet behind the first motorcycle. Near the end of the animation at the left side a third and then fourth motorcyclist enters, about 75 feet behind the second motorcycle. At the scale of the animation the motorcycles policemen appear little more than black dots. The animation will repeat after a three second delay.
(https://i.imgur.com/V4ySrMP.gif)
I wonder if the Hines/Industrial intersection was yet under police control. Here are the police radio logs taken from JFK First Day Evidence (Gary Savage):
Police Radio Logs Excerpts
Channel I
p387-388
12:34:25 Disp Report to Inwood and Stemmons and cut all traffic for the ambulance headed to
Parkland. Code 3
12:34:32 (24) Inwood and Stemmons?
12:34:35 Disp Inwood and Stemmons, where they come off Stemmons, going to Parkland.
12:34:40 (24) 10-4
12:34:43 Disp Make your assignment Code, 24
12:34:45 (24) 10-4
12:35:38 Ch2Disp Attention all emergency equipment. Attention all emergency equipment. Do not
use Industrial Boulevard..Do not use Industrial Boulevard. 12:36
12:36:36 (Disp) ..Inwood and Stemmons and assist 24...21., go up there to Hines and cut that
service road off there where that ambulance can go on to Parkland.
And on Channel II
p406-407
12:35 (15-2) (The) Captain advises, have all emergency traffic use some route besides
Industrial. Have 283 cut the traffic at Hines and Industrial.
12:35 Disp 10-4. 283 cut traffic, Hines and Industrial. 283, cut traffic Hines and Industrial.
(then using simultaneous broadcast)
12:36 Disp Attention all emergency equipment...Attention all emergency equipment...Do not
use Industrial Boulevard, 12:36
12:36 (220) Where do you want traffic cut in that area [Parkland]?
Disp Keep all traffic out of the emergency entrance to Parkland Hospital, and all
emergency equipment off of Industrial Boulevard.
(125) We have the emergency entrance secure at Parkland.
12:37 Disp 10-4, 125, 12:37
Wow James, excellent work as usual! I think you have nailed it. It does appear that perhaps some traffic not associated with the motorcade had to pull over to the side and let the escort motorcycles (and I imagine the motorcade followed) go by. It might be true that the intersection wasn’t secured. Because after all, the original planned route didn’t include going to Parkland. Very exciting to see this with better clarity. Thanks!
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Wow James, excellent work as usual! I think you have nailed it. It does appear that perhaps some traffic not associated with the motorcade had to pull over to the side and let the escort motorcycles (and I imagine the motorcade followed) go by. It might be true that the intersection wasn’t secured. Because after all, the original planned route didn’t include going to Parkland. Very exciting to see this with better clarity. Thanks!
Thanks Charles. When I finally found your bright spot moving west on Hines (I think), but east of the intersection, if I recall it seems to come to a stop also. I'll revisit that in a few days with the new animation.
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Thanks Charles. When I finally found your bright spot moving west on Hines (I think), but east of the intersection, if I recall it seems to come to a stop also. I'll revisit that in a few days with the new animation.
In the earlier clips, I think that I felt that I could see a car moving and stopping and also believed that I saw a motorcycle helmet moving in that same area. I had assumed (in my mind) that the moving car would have been the JFK limo at the front of the motorcade along with the motorcycles. The car appeared much darker to me in the earlier clips. And I wasn’t sure that it was a car because I couldn’t understand why the limo would be stopping. It just didn’t occur to me that it could have been traffic unassociated with the motorcade that had to pull over and stop. But, now that you brought that idea up, it makes very good sense to me. And the better clarity confirms it (to me at least). Well done and good thinking. Thumb1:
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It could just be my imagination based on what I would expect to see. But, I do see some movement going to the left in the shortened segment. It appears to me to perhaps just be a white police officer helmet that is ahead of the JFK limo. I see things better on my iPad screen. I think it is an OLED type screen. Look in the area where I drew a yellow circle. You have to be looking between the vehicles that are going to the right because they are between the camera and the movement that I see. Also, I drew the outline (in blue) of what looks to me to possibly be the shape of Parkland Hospital in the distance. If that is actually Parkland, that would be the direction of travel of the vehicles after they cleared the RR tracks and intersection at Hines.
(https://i.vgy.me/0a4geF.jpg)
Charles, I’m mostly replying belatedly to your reply #11 in regard to motion you detected within the area of your yellow circle. I’ve had a difficult time with this area but think now I can see a light colored “blur” appear near that area around frame 094. Frame numbers refer to actual film frames and not the animation frames, which were reduced by about a third due to blur. This object (Green arrow) appears for a few frames moving westward but is soon obscured until it reappears near the end of the film at frame 199 (Blue arrow). The green region may be where it could look like a white helmet in motion, but much brighter than any other helmet in the film. At this time there is a motorcycle traveling maybe 10-20 feet of so ahead of the blur. It is the #4 motorcycle in my previous post above. This blur, at the Blue arrow position, seems consistent with a light colored sedan. I ponder if this may be the lead car (Curry’s). If it is Curry’s 63 Ford Galaxie 500 there is a lot of chrome surrounding the windshield that would be reflective. I believe whatever vehicle it is it is in lockstep with the four cycles ahead of it.
See the two frame toggle animation showing these arrows.
(https://i.imgur.com/0SZg5hE.gif)
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Charles, I’m mostly replying belatedly to your reply #11 in regard to motion you detected within the area of your yellow circle. I’ve had a difficult time with this area but think now I can see a light colored “blur” appear near that area around frame 094. Frame numbers refer to actual film frames and not the animation frames, which were reduced by about a third due to blur. This object (Green arrow) appears for a few frames moving westward but is soon obscured until it reappears near the end of the film at frame 199 (Blue arrow). The green region may be where it could look like a white helmet in motion, but much brighter than any other helmet in the film. At this time there is a motorcycle traveling maybe 10-20 feet of so ahead of the blur. It is the #4 motorcycle in my previous post above. This blur, at the Blue arrow position, seems consistent with a light colored sedan. I ponder if this may be the lead car (Curry’s). If it is Curry’s 63 Ford Galaxie 500 there is a lot of chrome surrounding the windshield that would be reflective. I believe whatever vehicle it is it is in lockstep with the four cycles ahead of it.
See the two frame toggle animation showing these arrows.
(https://i.imgur.com/0SZg5hE.gif)
Thanks James, you continue to amaze me with your work. I will study this closer and let you know if I see anything of additional interest. That’s a good idea about the lead car (Curry’s).